Morrowind Vs Oblivion: Dagoth Ur and Mankar Camoran debate (A.I.)

Who do you agree with? Is there anyone I should bring on to debate next?
This debate was generated by chat gtp and then voiced by Elevenlabs
Chat Gpt: chat.openai.com
Elevenlabs: beta.elevenlab...

[@Billy-RPG]

Mankar Cameron and Miraak Debate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZXGlpuvrbiVqbc

[@jlr372]

"Not liking Morrowind is a skill issue."- Dagoth Ur

[@Blowtorch87]

True

[@laughsinmicroscopic6522]

Surprised at Dagoth's restraint. He could've easily brought up horse armor and how it inevitably doomed the gaming landscape.

[@Ttegegg]

Is a bit of a low blow ain’t it

[@dragonforks93]

Dagoth-Ur is too much of a gentleman to go for the low-hanging fruit

[@y20k90]

If it wasn't Oblivion it would have been another game. Preferably any other game but an Elderscrolls game, yet here we are. Plus this is a debate not a flame war.

[@brendanmuller7301]

​@@y20k90Honestly gta online is more to blame

[@Alfar-2908-1]

@@brendanmuller7301actually I’d say it was EA with there sports games, that really started the trend of micro transactions.

[@xijinping4418]

As much as I love Oblivion, Dagoth Ur is based once again

[@CaesarRoyale]

Dagoth Ur's AI voice model is really impressive, you can hear him inhale before each sentence

[@FrozeBone]

The dagoth AI is the most advanced voice I've heard so far. Look up the "bro wtf is dagoth saying" video on here, he changes the pitch and cadence like crazy.

[@DanishDude93]

Any chance of an Adoring Fan vs Cicero debate? 😁

[@Billy-RPG]

By Azura! Thats a good idea.

[@adrianaslund8605]

"To enter paradise is to enter one's mother" Actual Mankar Camoran quote.

[@CaptainOfAverages]

Mankar is just a jealous n'wah.

[@electivetoast6897]

I love Oblivion, but Mankar is spitting straight bull. The combat is slow because everyone is way too spongy, especially at certain levels. The leveling system throws beefier enemies at you before you're properly developed for them. So combat ends up really slow and sometimes just punishing.

[@Rottenberg666]

Oblivion is the greatest meme in gaming history and thus a clear winner for me 😂

[@chuwyjoe8808]

Honestly, Oblivion's storyline is pretty solid.

[@ausaskar]

Dagoth dominated Mankar but it probably shouldn't have been as one sided. Mankar could have compared the faction questlines of both games and raised Radiant AI compared to Morrowind's static NPCs..

[@antonakesson]

But Dagoth could have brought up horse armor...

[@danieltobin4498]

Mankar could have just said “Oblivion OST” and dropped the mic right then and there.

[@darcey-vs2cm]

Morrowind has more faction questlines and these factions trump oblivions. The houses have interesting lore the Mages Guild focusses on the disappearence of the Dwarves in a neat way, the dynamic between the fighters guild and the theives guild, the religious factions etc. Plus radiant AI was a buggy mess

[@sidecharacter7165]

2 Words: Horse Armor

[@irieite9666]

​@@darcey-vs2cmI think because its largely text based with only some small lines of voice acting that it has more content and lore. Talking with Divayth Fyr, Yagrum Bagarn etc is genuinely one of the best things I've ever done in a video game and at the end of the day its just reading text on a screen.

[@RyuKaguya]

"Morrowind combat is realistic" *stabs enemy directly in the face with a sword* * miss *

[@Kaftan]

Yes, because a blindfolded child who's wheezing to death who's never held a sword before should land every single hit.

[@RyuKaguya]

@@Kaftan if it directly made contact with their face so much you can see the sword clip through the head you're god-damned right it should . "nu uh I have a forcefield" Is not fun to play with

[@myb8955]

@@RyuKaguya Hit chance combat systems like Morrowind's require you to suspend your disbelief with the visuals in exchange for a more realistic progression system. It's an RPG, your created character's skills should be the deciding factor, not your ability to spam M1 and watch models collide.

[@selkiara1272]

@@myb8955 I feel like WHERE you hit an enemy should give a bonus to your roll. No bonus for outer extremities / glancing blows. Minor bonus for a small area over the heart (dead center chest, ideally) Moderate bonus for head.

[@RyuKaguya]

@@myb8955 the problem is that's not realistic... Also works better for Turn based games.

[@Null_sys]

Dagoth Ur: **Makes a point** **miss** **miss** **miss**

[@Arcangel2992]

Hot take: Bethesda makes lukewarm combat at best that ages as fast milk on hot summer day as the years go on.

[@mariano1196]

Not much of a hot take if everybody agrees on that

[@the_jam_man]

dude this take is colder than atmora, everyone already knows that the combat is hot trash

[@Bklyn93]

@@mariano1196what is an example of an rpg with good combat

[@mariano1196]

@@Bklyn93 idk you got me there...

[@Khrada]

I love Oblivion to death, but Mankar Camoran is just as deluded as he was in game when he said the Oblivion leveling system is good.

[@1stRateSerrvice]

I had way more fun playing Oblivion than I did Morrowind, but I love both. This script seemed a little one sided to me

[@bluesentinelavoch4440]

Mankar fanboy to the absolute chad reality Dagoth Ur

[@permanentlyfrosted8535]

What a grand and intoxicating innocence..

[@DrakeofEarth]

A much more even debate than I expected honestly after the Miraak vs Dagoth Ur debate. I suppose that it reflexs how the quality of games are a lot closer with Oblivion and Morrowind compared to Skyrim and Morrowind. (I love all the Elder Scrolls games)

[@DMIwriter]

Obviously I find GPT very impressive, but there's always a sort of school essay feel to its cadence and structure

[@juh4982]

It depends on the script

[@harz632]

I think that is why Dagoth Ur is so perfect for it, it doesn't feel out of place on him.

[@user-kb3ji1ss1r]

It works for older ES and Fallout titles, specifically Dagoth and Joshua Graham because their general tone and flow is similar to that of someone giving a prepared speech. More animated characters like Cicero would be a little harder to nail down.

[@jafalk1022]

Counterpoint maybe Dagoths voice AI only appears so deliberating because that's what the source material is.

[@jonesclone]

The fact that the AI knows to take/fake a breath to continue a sentence is insane

[@CaesarRoyale]

Morrowind's levelling system is simpler than oblivion's when you consider that you aren't incentivised to stay at level 1 for easy monsters like in the scaling oblivion. Besides that the 10 skill improvements = level up is the same. It's just that morrowind's miscellaneous skills (that don't add to the level up count) became oblivion's minor skills, since morrowind's major/minor skills contribute to levels. But then again I have a computer science degree so maybe that's why it makes sense.

[@emocatgaming2332]

Fast pace doesn’t always equal exciting. The slower yet more-thought-out combat of Morrowind can be much more exciting than Oblivion ever could be after at least two hours of playing Oblivion. It’s that stagnant.

[@GrimDarkHalfOff]

And here we see the last remaining supporters of Zenimax and Bethesda eating each other. History in the making.

[@AnonymousAnonposter]

Don't forget Obsidian vs Bethesda fanboys fighting.

[@MrBrimbles]

Vivec VS Dagoth Ur regarding who betrayed who after the defeat of the Dwemer and who has the stronger claim to being God of the Dunmer people.

[@montypython5521]

much like most modern games, games that fall within a certain window might as well be the same, the graphics comparison doesn't mean much

[@Billy-RPG]

You know you're gonna have trouble in a debate when you start with "The graphics alone make it a better game" lol

[@7errafirma]

I am not surprised AI failed to imitate Terrence Stamp's voice. Such an amazing voice. I sometimes go to sleep listening to Mankar's paradise speech.

[@MrBanditheart]

Morrowind was the better game but it still doesn't change the fact that out of the three main games I had the most fun playing oblivion.

[@SuperLumianaire]

Simplified leveling? Oblivion, to make a character with good levels you need to level your skills a certain way to make perfect stats.

[@TheNemkris]

Can we just agree that both are better than skyrim?

[@wofuljac]

Too much about graphics and combat system. Pretty much one sided to make Morrowind better. Most people agree that Oblivion has the best side quest in all elder scrolls games and while it's art style is generic compared to Morrowind, seeing the imperial City almost anywhere in cyrodiil makes it feel like a good fantasy adventure. I love Morrowind too but every NPC walks and runs like action figures so Dagoth shouldnt talk about bad animations.

[@nobodyimportant4778]

Skyrim vs morrowind i was like ehh yknow. I felt like he's glossing over major issues here and pandering to this idea of being a "true rpg" without understanding what that means or what made morrowind good for rp to begin with. Here he opens with "morrowind is obviously the better game" and i'm like yeah fair. All 3 of these games just have button mashing melee combat tho. Sorry dagoth.

[@arandompasserby7940]

Now this is a debate I'm actually conflicted on. Oblivion was my first TES game, and being a young teen in 2006, the next-gen graphics and the havok physics (which weren't as prevalent back then) was truly awe inspiring. Blasting a table full of items with a spell and watching them all fly around was truly seeing the future, lol! Hell, the Radiant AI system is still an amazing feature that tragically has yet been utilized in the same way since (in fact, it got nerfed in Skyrim, so scripts no longer play out when you're not present to witness them.) At the same time, although it took me longer to get into it (and it's held back by its very dated systems and appearance) as an adult, I do love Morrowind's unique atmosphere, its massive and truly foreign-feeling world, the sense of exploration as you slowly traverse the landscape, the depth of its lore and the way the different cities truly feel unique from each other. It's hard to choose, because it feels like no matter what choice you make, you're either choosing a simplified, bog-standard "LOTR-inspired" sequel with dumbed-down mechanics over a much classier and unique predecessor, OR you're choosing a clunky, Neanderthal-like game that's aged about as well as "ur mom" over a game that has "better" combat, is easier to get into, and has a truly groundbreaking and "ahead of its time" AI system (that just never had it's full potential unleashed). However, just out of personal preference, I'm choosing Oblivion because, 1, it was the first game I ever modded (and had lots of fun with my friend at the time screwing around and finding ever-increasingly absurd ways to destroy the town of Anvil), and 2, in Morrowind wild animals will only attack you, and NPCs never help you in combat. I still love Morrowind, but yeah, screw you "guy who didn't help me fight off the 20 cliff racers I was kiting behind me," this vote for Oblivion is for YOU.

[@Chinothebad]

If Lysandus had thebsame AI treatment, he'd both of them to shame with Daggerfall's combat system and how one could make any kind of swing though it and Oblivion fail in having no spears.

[@thunderstudent]

Oblivion has lore in spades, so does Morrowind. Oblivion's combat system is smooth like butter but it lacks in certain areas. Morrowind's is more clunky but there are more options. But the radiant ai in Oblivion brings the characters truly to life, innovating off of its predecessor but lacks the political angles of Morrowind for the most part. The leveling system in Oblivion is rewarding, spell making is intuitive and the Champion of Cyrodil has to contend with 3 different Daedric princes and an ancient Alyied king bent on revenge. The Nerevarine has to contend with Dagoth Ur, Hercine and Almalexia as well as an entire fortress of undead. Both are graphically stunning for their time but Oblivion has aged much better than Morrowind, { going strictly by the Vanilla games of course. But Morrowind's landscape is stunning and easily an equal to Oblivion in set pieces. Fast travel is more intuitive in Oblivion and map markers help point you to where you need to go. Morrowind gives directions to follow but you can easily get lost and stranded. Forcing you to abandon hours of progress. In the end Oblivion is a more enjoyable experience but that's not to say you shouldn't play Morrowind, in fact playing Morrowind will help you appreciate Oblivion even more. I wish they kept things like spears, crossbows, throwing weapons and a separate skill for Axe weapons. But Oblivion finds a balance between action and role-playing. Something that Skyrim is lacking in.

[@user-kb3ji1ss1r]

Oblivion was far too much fun to put morrowind above it. Making 50 plus hours of simply terrorizing the Empire's populace is unbeatable.

[@JamestheFreak24]

vanilla: Morrowind>Oblivion modded: Oblivion>Morrowind

[@oscargonzalez3599]

"Everyone, give way, here comes the master race, Skyrim" That one North

[@NotRegret]

"Morrowind combat requires strategy?" You fight at most 2 things at the same time, usually 1 and they really only come in two types a ranged guy and a melee guy. Whatever your build is because there is so few types of encounters you will just do the same thing over and over which will probably just amount to attack with your best thing and as long as you are not being 1-shot you can just drink a puzzle to heal up which you have an infinite amount of because it's so cheap and easy to make health potions. In fact you can make health potions, sell them, get a profit, and use that to buy more health potion ingredients. I like Morrowind but the entire TES character system is broken, it's a bunch of neat idea thrown together with no plan for how it will be balanced or be strategic.

[@guntman6084]

🤓

[@andresirarragorri3137]

I find that the chance mechanic for hitting the enemy makes it so that whatever weapon type you pick at the start of the game is your committed weapon. Once enemies start to level scale, you're basically locked out of trying a new weapon type. Both games had terrible leveling systems tho. The game wants you to role play, but the perfect leveling incentives are that you build your class with the skills you wouldn't purposefully or accidently use.

[@NotRegret]

@@andresirarragorri3137 Well yeah, there's no difference between any of the weapons aside from the stat they scale off and the peculiarities of their damage range. That was the standard for all RPGs back than. You don't roleplay with level ups. Level ups restrict roleplaying because they are about making some things preferable to another.

[@YouthRightsRadical]

Dagoth Ur choosing not to mention that the Shivering Isles was hailed as a terrific expansion in part because it involved leaving the stale, samey forests of Cyrodil for a strange land full of giant mushrooms...

[@nexiousimrex264]

I love both games but I’d be lying if I said I enjoyed morrowind’s base game without exploits. I needed to boost my agility to even hit something. With exploits they are equal games for me but trying to play morrowind on console without exploits is pain and suffering to me subjectivity.

[@r0-satheclanker917]

Morrowind’s combat is unpredictable and unwinnable in the early game solely because of the fact that your race choice harshly dictates your play style and build

[@vladimirdmitriev7451]

I agree!

[@alicetretyakova3971]

"Morrowind's depth and complexity" _laughs is Daggerfall_

[@Alpostpone]

Daggerfall is mostly _broad,_ which is different

[@myb8955]

Daggerfall isn't complex. It's definitely engaging in ways Morrowind isn't, though

[@ramiel7666]

Oblivion combat is exciting? Al i remember is "smack, smack, smack, smack, smack....." and then super goblins with a million health.......

[@silverblade357]

Thank the Nine for mods!

[@jakubolszewski8284]

Oblivion (my favourite game) is also like turned based xD. And well… ahh, as much as I love Oblivion, now I think that only bigger issue with Morrowind is that I just don't like Dunmers (not Ashlanders) in themselves….

[@TheTrenchesYT]

Morrowind had the better story and let you feel like a god by breaking the game in the later chapters, even if its technology was relatively lame. The Tribunal expansion was an insult to gaming in many ways and even damaged the main gameplay. Oblivion was more immersive because of its better tech but constantly forbade you to do anything broken and became seriously sloggy in the late game with all the identical dungeons. The Shivering Isles may be the best expansion I've ever seen. Morrowind wins for me because making the story my own through roleplay was strongly encouraged-- even the main villain of the game wants you to make yourself at home and embrace your character's identity before he will fight you. Oblivion did the opposite, neither particularly caring who you were nor allowing you any time to breathe in terms of story-- every item in the questline is presented as an immediate and urgent situation of life and death, making me feel guilty to go on sidequests. All that said, I put 100+ hours into both and will never forget either.

[@desertranger3068]

I love this 🤣 But is anyone else reminded of the episode of Futurama, when the two copy paste clone presidential candidates are debating but agreeing?

[@JamesL42]

But let's be real they'd both roast the absolute soul out of Alduin for Skyrim. Though all three of them could probably have a field day with Kellogg/Shaun...

[@molochi]

Dagoth Ur (the game critic) is, of course, correct on all points. Unfortunately the consolification and resulting dumbing down of games makes then sell more units.

[@jacobdarling1524]

Oblivion is my favorite Elder Scrolls game. Morrowind is my favorite Elder Scrolls story.

[@erdrickx784]

I spent over 1000 hours playing Morrowind and couldn't even bring myself to finish Oblivion. What's the point in playing when everything just levels up with you? That and they got rid of levitation and jump spells.

[@joshuahoffman1458]

Crazy idea: if you like a game, play it.

[@Falkriim]

Mankar for president!

[@adrianaslund8605]

Simplified leveling was one of Oblivion severe flaws

[@koldfire7253]

The way Dagoth roasted Mankar's skill was too real

[@Mateus-zs3it]

while I agree with Dagoth, the first time you leave the sewers and that oblivion ost starts is a life changing experience

[@A_random_Khajiit]

I hate Mankar but he's speaking fax

[@arseyne]

can you do ESO vs morrowind i wanna see dagoth ur roast the shit outta mannimarco

[@Souless6X]

Isn't morrowind meelee combat basically button mashing and fatigue management lmao

[@kirkfogg8366]

Oblivions combat was literally sponge warfare. Only thing it did better was the casting system.

[@Billy-RPG]

Also backflips

[@thebelmont1995]

Honestly morrowind was not really that much more complex or deep than oblivion. They were pretty similar in terms of depth. I've played both for over 300 hours. Aside from a few skills and a few spells being removed and missing your attacks due to fatigue it's really not that much different. Skyrim on the other hand....omfg. You wanna talk about watered down, no strategy, button mashing, and no depth or complexity? Meet skryrim. The WORST out the bunch.

[@jakubolszewski8284]

Oh yeah, Shivering Isles is this reason why Obluvion is still better than Morrowend, but in some way, it is merely just as stange as basic morr…. xD

[@Silentguy_]

What kind of prompts are you feeding ChatGPT to generate these debates? Are you basically just saying “write me a script for a debate between Dagoth Ur and X”?

[@Billy-RPG]

Yeah pretty much. "Write a debate between Dagoth Ur and Mankar Cameron about which is better Morrowind or Oblivion" is the prompt I used for this one. The others followed the same idea.

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

Ok but which villain needs a higher dose antipsychotics?

[@Husker_XIII]

Honestly I think they're both right.

[@sircrimsonwolf7492]

Here’s how I would personally rank elder scrolls, five and elder scrolls for an elder scrolls three. 1. Oblivion 2. Skyrim - 1,000,000. Morrowind (but only because either the diehard fans or the original fans can enjoy plus these older games always give me a terrible headache to the point i have to take strong pain relievers) If any readers here are a fan of Morrowind more power to you and i won’t personally judge you however i have a deep personal hatred for the game not that i think the game is terrible i just hate its graphics due to the fact, it always causes me terrible headaches. If anything Morrowind should have gotten a remaster years ago.

[@Billy-RPG]

Lol. Thats fair.

[@samuelchatt9972]

Morrowind is just better.

[@salami99]

I am an oblivion guy but i follow dagoth ur, truely trying times 😢

[@swankmank]

these arguements feel shallow and superficial imo, bro you need to get dirty with it

[@leek5682]

We all know Morrowind is superior, but it’s good to have a debate

[@metallicarabbit]

false

[@goransekulic3671]

Dagoth is amazing, really!

[@Diggy7Diggs]

should have been Martin

[@BrofessorDG]

Lmao as I said Mankar Camoran got trashed

[@coreywong6229]

So will alduin show up to this?

[@coolboy9979]

I mean oblivion is just a better skyrim (minus the shitty leveling, where you need a degree to properly get +5 in every stat without mods)

[@rejvaik00]

They're both wrong the best Elder Scrolls game is Daggerfall

[@silverblade357]

Oblivion is the prettier game, but the setting was kinda basic with the generic fantasy workd aesthetic. Gimme alien and unique any day!

[@lukemorgan6166]

Sorry oblivion is GOD tier

[@antonwuts7540]

oblivion 1000%😀

[@imperialwyvern]

Both are great games in the own right. But Oblivion is more fun to play and requires less time to enjoy and complete. But Morriwind has shit combat but better magic system and weapon variety.

[@sae136]

Morrowind is the very definition of Reject Action RPG Embrace True RPG

[@yo3theguys980]

Mankar had terrible points

[@user-on6uf6om7s]

Morrowind was Elder Scrolls' youth, full of adventure and promise. Skyrim was when it truly got itself together as an adult and built a career and a family, not as fun but stable and fulfilling. Oblivion was that 5 year span it lived in a van and barely skimmed by selling plasma and scavenging copper tubing. Even as a young huge fan of the series back in the day, I could tell how tired and lifeless Oblivion was when it came out.

[@scoutmastert.7181]

Shivering Isles isnt even top 5 Bethesda DLCs. Mankar is just a salty n'wah

[@silverblade357]

Shivering Isles was so impressive because it took a break from the generic fantasy setting that was Cyrodiil.

[@malaficus]

Skyrim is better then both. No limits on what you level, unique perks, unique voices, dual wielding, etc. Yes it is dumbed down. The lack of spells is a crime against gaming and the towns are so laughable small they might as we be called villages. Tho even that might be too grand of a name. A few houses put together? Skyrim has many flaws. But it also has many strengths. From crafting to a better design crime system to more believable humans. Cry some more how oblivion and morrowind dont hold a candle to skyrim.

[@TLDelapore]

Oblivion was garbage. It was like someone applied the constraints of a real world theme park to a videogame.

[@WelcomeToDERPLAND]

Too much is brought up about graphics.. both games are ugly as shit and oblivion isn't a massive step up from morrowind in my opinion.

[@DaddyMaster76]

Another morrowind elitist

[@mickdonald7885]

Oblivion