Mortars are useless (in Conflict Gamemode) | Arma Reforger 1.3

Mortars are fun to shoot however because of the current constellation of conflict gameplay features I predict mortars will be useless.

[@brexxes]

Played one match of conflict on Arland. Basicly everyone with a high enough rank fired a few mortar shots ( mostly missed the area) and never used it again. on the other hand we had loads of Hueys in the air burning up resources. They maybe should remove the rank barrier on the experimental server all together to get more data of people actually using the mortar.

[@jacoblooney3547]

Captain is definitely way too high of a lock, but it should be locked up to Sergeant. You would have too many people wanting to build up mortars thinking they’re about to do damage the same way dudes were when the helicopters were first released. The issue with supplies can easily be solved with setting up close to supply caches. Unless you put the mortars in groups it’s probably just going to harass bases.

[@caracal3892]

However there is still the problem of the player with the highest rank being the only one who can physically buy the shells from the ammo box.

[@Chemical_Sludge0]

Absolutely right in this video. The mortars cost needs to be cheaper than it is and widely available to give it a use. With the steps to range, supply and shoot it effectively it makes them reliant on cooperation and players working together to work efficiently which I think is balance enough. If they keep the rank requirement I think people are going to choose getting a helicopter or a LAV 10 times out of 10.

[@StoneyKenobi212]

Mortars being widely available sounds horrible. It already requires multiple people to pull off a good mortar strike, making it easier to acquire wouldn't necessarily mean more would use them. After playing all day yesterday the average is 2 mortar teams max each side because the cost is so high and even with just 2 mortars its enough to barrage a point clean and then have a standby team come in and cap. If they were cheaper I fear that would make them too overpowered. Theres a good balance right now only being able to fire off so many without an active supply line. I'm hoping these changes will make people realize running supplies is the most important part of the game.

[@kcz1093]

@@StoneyKenobi212 lots of stuff in reforger is overranked. I pretty sure all of this stuff gets moved down in arma 4.... becuase you have actual artillery as fire support, OR Infantry fighting vehicles, Main battles tanks, and actual attack helicopters. the highest rank is Major. so i doubt all of this stuff will even be LT and Captain when far more lethal systems for supporting infantry will exist in A4. Like when Motorized and mechanized infantry was the backbone of superpower armies stuff like BTR or LAV ( or rather M113 for US army) should be very available when you consider in how many numbers they were produced.

[@Channelterror117]

@@StoneyKenobi212 logistics win wars.

[@TholdrinTheAlchemist]

@@StoneyKenobi212 Yep, and compositions have 100% refund rate so when it's time to move you can just dismantle the mortar firing position and move it elsewhere without losing any supplies in the process. Cost on composition itself is just a barrier of entry. That is why most of the cost is in the shells themselves. Finding a mortar hidden in some hole is a nightmare but if you can spot the supply transport feeding it...

[@swisstraeng]

I do think mortars need to be locked behind ranks: Otherwise, too many people would entirely drain supplies. This is already a problem with US teams playing dress up. Look at what is already happening with armories, which I believe should be locked for corporal ranks. AND have some of their weapons locked behind ranks as well. I would lock many things behind corporal, just so not anyone could directly do whatever anywhere. The ammo cost of mortars has a key workaround: build mortars at supply bases. You essentially get infinite mortar rounds. Smoke and training shells should be available to soldiers, explosive shells should be available to sergeant. Building a mortar should be corporal.

[@Daniel-rx6kz]

its a bad system, its bullshit that someone who tries to main the mortars (someone who actually knows what he is doing) has to grind eveytime the match starts before he can do it

[@WhyAreWeForcedIntoHavingThis]

Here's the deal though. Someone like me who has years of experience doing this process can be absolutely devastating if I have a buddy calling shots down range. It's a Sim, Less of a game. They shouldnt optimize the process to make it far too easy because the people who genuinely want to use Mortars will make it happen and be devastating

[@Yeti_Confetti44]

Plus, the people who aren't very good would grab them and shell their own people. With the player base we have now. Mortars are gonna be more of a problem tthana solution. As well I just got my computer set up again, and I'm not seeing the mortars and tanks and things with in-game master. So, I thought that was pretty weird. Can't even test them out for whatever reason.

[@kamchatka3601]

@@Yeti_Confetti44 i think they're all on the experimental branch still

[@liamjackson8012]

@@Yeti_Confetti44 were you on the experimental branch?

[@Yeti_Confetti44]

@liamjackson8012 I'm not sure, actually. Do I just go into the steam properties in betas for that?

[@liamjackson8012]

@@Yeti_Confetti44 Should just be a separate game you’ll need to install

[@jamiegaff6150]

Ive always thought the next thing they need to add is some sort of destruction of base modules and a rework of the spawn system, it will allow for sabotage operations with demo charges and hit and run attacks on supply hubs and may actually give reason to build up fobs and defend them.

[@TheChunkyMunk]

My guess is that the rank required will be reduced once freeform bases are included

[@burgertanker7970]

Giving players the options for all this cool kind of gameplay right from the beginning means they just suck all the goddamn supplies out of the box and make it harder to build up the bases we capture. Fuck that, ranks locks are an idea the community have been asking to have for ages. I think the price on a shell is steep (should be like 20-25 supplies) but mortars should not be a "oh we just started, let's start mortaring immediately" It's not even a good weapon until you have an entrenched enemy, which usually takes at least 30-45 minutes in a match before both teams even meet

[@bingletoid]

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." - The most important quote ever uttered by man. I agree that locking the shells behind Captain is too much, and feel that Sergeant would be a more appropriate rank, as that is where the majority of the heavier assets are unlocked as of now. As well as that, I agree that the per-shell cost is far too high. As it sits, an entire truck can only carry, what, 12 shells? Slash the cost to 30 supplies and I think mortars will be much more sustainable overall (20 shells per truck). This is where I stop agreeing with you. Mortars should 100% *not* be available from the beginning of the round. The more accessible mortars are, the more susceptible the game is to min/maxing, the same way people already refuse to leave base without a suppressed RPK, 1000 rounds, 20 RPGs, 10 of each grenade, and the flaming fists of god himself all shoved in the largest rucksack available, topped off with their own personal Jeep/UAZ to move them around like they're a morbidly obese Walmart shopper. With mortars available at roundstart, we'd see an even bigger issue with people refusing to take early points. Why be a poor dirty infantryman when I can be the server's main character, bleeding the entire team's supplies just to keep (most likely blind) sustained fire on on an empty treeline a kilometer away from the point we're actually trying to take? The more accessible this playstyle is, the more people are going to try and do it. Those guys need to be curbed, and the rank-lock is Bohemia's method. If you want to cheese the game, you have to contribute to your team's supplies. If you refuse to help the team, you don't get to touch cool toys. Sucks to suck. Infact, halfway through the video I noticed you pushing for this exact cheeseballery. The suggestion that mortars are useless against bases based on the lack of permanent damage to assets is absolute hoggery. Mortars are a tool in a toolbox, not the entire engineer. A mortar alone against a base *should* be little more than a really really very deadly "inconvenience" for those being shelled. A single dude with a ruler, map, and compass should not be able to entirely neutralize an enemy base. That's not really realistic, nor is it even close to good gameplay. *However,* when combined with additional mortar batteries and an actual maneuvering force of players, mortars are the single most crazily invaluable asset to local leaders. Mortar smokes can block off entire sightlines out of defended bases, allowing attackers maneuver closer to a base under complete cover of smoke. In ideal cases attackers should be able to get *inside* of the base before the defenders can accurately locate and engage them. Illumination shells can light up entire enemy compounds ahead of a player force without said force giving its own position away with the use of distinctly audible 40mm launchers, while also allowing grenadiers to trade some of their own flares for more locally useful munitions such as smoke and HEDP. Suppression from a sustained layering of HE forces defenders to scatter and hide, again, giving attacking players an opportunity to move in closer amidst the chaos and overwhelm the local defenses. Local spotters on the ground can communicate with mortar sections in order to walk rounds into specific targets such as bunkers and command posts. You yourself recognize this as a possibility, before scoffing at the idea as if its impossible nonsense, some form of dark wizardry which simply can not be understood by mere mortal men, when it is *exactly how mortars are supposed to be employed.* Finally : per the patch notes, which I would really hope you'd have thoroughly read *before* making a 10 minute critical review, Defender spawns got chopped off hard, and buildings can collapse entirely with only one or two shells, making your later major concerns entirely moot. Read : "Changed: Bases capturing logic. Defending faction can no longer deploy on bases that the enemy is capturing. The capturing timer is now also increased per each radio connection to a friendly base, giving defenders more time to react to an attack on a base in the rear." The mortars aren't useless. Far from it. Its the individual who fails to employ it properly who makes it useless. Try thinking about how you can use the mortars to support your team on their objective, instead of just focusing on what you can/can't accomplish for yourself.

[@TholdrinTheAlchemist]

Note: There is also a shell box item which allows you to store shells. So even a private can feed the beast if the captain will buy him the shells. One of the reasons why we don't want to give expensive items to Privates is the griefing. Joining game, buiding a mortar set and draining all of the bases supplies would be too easy, not to mention if you target another allied base for maximum damage.

[@catfunt5583]

Wow.. 50 supplies. That’s an expensive system. Hoping for some changes

[@Kaade_Z]

Very good points! They need to make changes here for sure! Lots of good additions in this update but also major flaws in the good additions that need to be changed before release!

[@StoneyKenobi212]

You can scroll wheel down and grab the shells without being captain rank right now, not sure if its bugged but you don't need to be captain to quickly grab the shells. imo I think the way they have the items locked is perfect. Teamwork is key it should help squads actually take on roles instead of just being Rambo.

[@tweedyharfunkel]

Another usecase in conlict for mortar is destroying enemy command vehicle which is heavily defended. Actually this is very useful for example when Morton gets pushed from same KSHM spot on the hill north from town for 1001 time in a row - it will deny people spawning there. 2) and it's not rifle grenades, rifle grenades are those fired from rifle barrel often using special ammo

[@GamerGamer-o9u]

It’s hard to play conflict because there’s almost always some players who don’t understand the game mode mechanics and make choices that disadvantage the team. Often I join a game that has been going for hours and it’s still just a main base with an arsenal and if anyone tries turning the arsenal into a radio or Vic depot they get executed. When I play to have fun I have to hide from teammates, ignore the teams choices and just accept chaos and imminent defeat 😂

[@kcz1093]

i agree. ITs usefull offensive asset. IE shelling a point to prevent the enemy from doing anything productive at a Base. IN a defensive scenario individual players are too dispersed, and to fluid with their movement for mortars to be used effectively.

[@doltBmB]

Battlefield 1942 could not spawn on contested flags, they nailed it 25 years ago.

[@Mr_Centipede]

Can you as the captain, purchase the mortar shell, and put it down on the ground or the mortar ammo box thing? Then let the private pick-up the shell and shoot it?

[@imKas]

Yeah my first experience was two corn fed men doing math faster than I could hope and giving us perfect azimuth and range to absolutely obliterate bases. If you've got someone who can effectively and accurately get you on target its a fucking absolute machine.

[@caracal3892]

Yes however my argument also was that currently even perfect hits on base buildings have virtually no effect on the base. It does not destroy supplies or prevent spawns. So players can just hide 30 meters away from the armory until the mortar expends his resources. There is no incentive to make an enemy mortar stop shooting unless it is hitting right on top of the armory while someone is trying to get gear

[@command_unit7792]

The devs confirmed that destroying base buildings will make capturing faster

[@callum4796]

Mortars should be lowered to sargeant but i can see see why they did it. Its to encourage supply runs.

[@Opachki69420]

i agree they should also raise the requirement for rpg and grenade launcher to sgt or cpl imo, there should be more tied to rank in general

[@tiberius8390]

Captain rank for a mortar shell is pretty ridiculous. For public servers I'd go for sergeant rank max, rather corporal. It would prevent players from getting a mortar right away, but not make a mortar more restricted than a helicopter. From a pure asset cost perspective a mortar tube and some rounds cost nothing compared to a Huey. Also 50 supplies for a mortar shell is too much really for how useful it actually is. I'd place it not higher than say an RPG round (25 supplies I guess?) or even less, as their chance to hit is much lower. Imagine you want to fire a typical barrage of say 6 rounds, that will cost you 300 supplies alone! every 12 shots you need a truckload of supplies! That makes no sense from a pure space perspective, because 12 mortar shells would fit inside one single ammo crate, while the truck could potentially transport 50 crates. You'd have realistically 100s of shells available from a single truckload. But I know, they go for supply system, which is fine. Maybe it's a placeholder. I think conflict in general is also too dynamic to make that much use of mortars. Infantry and vehicles move fast across the map and towards enemy positions (e.g. the mortar positon). To line up a mortar barrage you need some calculation time and the mortar round has a flight time. So to hit and disable a moving target is quite unlikely in many game scenarios. That leaves fixed bases or positions as targets. Teams usually don't work with forward positions and engineering trucks, so that leaves only bases. And as you pointed out you can't destroy anything currently; or only visually. I think that it's a placeholder that the arsenal boxes remain. Why use is visible destruction if you cannot actually destroy the functionality of the building you are shelling? That's clearly wip. Also the whole conflict gameplay will change drastically when there are no fixed base positions any more and you can build places wherever and you have to bring at least a truckload of supplies to get the base going with command tent and radio relay. And as people might know that is planned on the roadmap. It makes the gamemode more complex, but many people for sure won't like it that you have to haul supplies basically everywhere.

[@kcz1093]

TBH even a Huey should be considered a more accessible and expendable asset ( at least with non offensive armament) in the future of arma ( A4) just because Uh1H was no longer in production and gradually being replaced by Uh60 blackhawk since 1979. Unless you were in some underfunded national guard unit, your probably seeing a higher UH60A to Uh1H ratio in a active duty aviation support unit by 1989.

[@tiberius8390]

@@kcz1093 True. Haha. Not sure why they put the UH1 in, as Reforger plays in 1990 or 91 or so. Maybe the Blackhawk has too many modern systems they didn't want to model and they wanted to keep that analog feeling more. Not completely sure why we need that progression anyway really. After maybe 10 minutes of Conflict each faction has one helo repaired from the military bases/harbors before a single person is lieutenant. If the teams take care of it it can be a super effective asset.

[@andrewkolomoytsev4677]

I agree plus why would the devs put effort for the mortars just for them be berley used

[@pac2267]

1 idea doesnt make sence because the first thing you should do is help your team by either collecting supplies or capturing a point ... doing this will take you tyo at least corporal allowing you to use morter rounds 2 locking the morter behind a buildable emplacement(at least for now) makes sence since you have the m240's or other GLs, you're only using the emplacements as a defensive emplacement and support fire, its pretty easy to counter barrage it or find and neutralize it since its sitting in a single spot 3 right now, morters are only usefull for large groups of people standing in one area, either defending or walking throgth the woods like for exemple a group of people were advancing on signal hill and we had a team set up far away barely in range or the tower and some guy gave the call that they were attackiung signal from the NE we just barraged the area with HE and kept them from re capping

[@Adam-i5h8f]

If you put an AI guy on it, and be the FO for him its awesome

[@Adam-i5h8f]

It’s also fun to do the mortar stuff yourself and you actually don’t need any rank.

[@mightyzuis]

What if they made it to where the mortars can be carried on your back in place of a backpack and then have a few other teammates carry the actual ammunition?

[@sortaspicey9278]

It should be accessible but more technical to use. Meaning anyone can set it up but effectively using it should require some level of skill even if it's just looking at the range clipboard instead of a UI element.

[@StoneyKenobi212]

Oh it takes skill. Yesterday out of 12 people at base only 1 of them could actually get coordinates correctly.

[@nitratesoap]

I think we all appreciate the discussion, but I'd like to bring in a counterpoint (I don't play the game I just enjoy watching so take this with a grain of salt); It's my understanding that design philosophy of a mortar is to provide indirect fire, meaning its a weapon to soak and suppress an area with mixed ordnance. So I can understand why it wouldn't be effective in targeting bases, because that's not it's designed purpose, right? Edit: Don't you think a limit on a grenadier's load for his grenade launcher would put the duty of providing IDF back in the hands of mortar teams?

[@Looking4Mountains]

Speaking as a mortarman, your understanding of mortars is wrong. Mortars are the most timely indirect fire asset available to the maneuver commander. They are meant to be used in both the offense and defense, mortars are 100% useful in the assault of enemy strongholds.

[@caracal3892]

@Looking4Mountains I tested the mortar range for the M821 shell in the game, and it appears to top out at slightly more than 3 kilometers with 4 rings. And the lowest angle the mortar can go is 800 mills and 45 degrees. The range table also stops at 2900m. Is that a gamey balance thing or is that really what would be accurate for this weapon system in 1989? Because wikipedia mentions 5.9 kilometers as max range.

[@c420blastin]

Ive found just using ai for the mortar crews is the most effective so you can go out in the field to target

[@ngonzales3781]

This is balanced

[@abrahamespejel5884]

Motors should be locked only to spawn then. But be usable by everyone when already spawned. My grandpa was a private and was shooting motors in his time.

[@jasonr.r5337]

I Was using thenm with ggreat success on arland

[@theplug7264]

Modders will fix it like always.

[@TrajanX]

are mortars in the game?

[@lukasschmidt2478]

Didn't they also promise point and click artillery barrages, so even if you put in the effort to use mortars they are beaten by some guy opening his map and clicking somewhere once.

[@WhyAreWeForcedIntoHavingThis]

Welcome to counter battery. It's a huge PITA to set up a mortar position. Gotta get used to setting up fast, getting your shots off and leaving. Just the way she goes

[@Un1tMedia]

@@lukasschmidt2478 Only in Game Master mode

[@bingletoid]

nah, that's just a ploppable module for gamemasters. regular players will have to bring out the map and ruler to aim. (source : me, experimental branch, right now)

[@WhyAreWeForcedIntoHavingThis]

@@bingletoid thanks for the quality reply

[@trivixni435]

So true

[@RRTF-DUI]

playing arma in general for a lot of years now and i think having equipment locked behind ranks doesnt make any sense for an arma game it feels more like cod typa game now. arma was always you can have what you want and do the job AND NOT GRIND FOR SOMETHING ALSO MAKES IT LESS FUN FOR PLAYERS THAT JUST WANNA HOP ON FOR §= TO &= MINS WWITH THE RANK CHANGE ITS A GAME YOU HAVE ATO DEDICATE A LOT OF TIME TO just have some fun doesnt make sense in my opinion

[@bingletoid]

"THE GAME FEELS LIKE COD BECAUSE I CANT DROP IN AND DROP OUT AND DO WHATEVER I WANT AT A MOMENTS NOTICE" - a deranged take by a deranged individual (you)

[@bird.9346]

It's only the specific game mode

[@Opachki69420]

the idea is so people dont spam certain things(for example plenty of people sit at private rank and just spam rpg on vehicles leaving their main area) locking these behind a rank like cpl or sgt would make the gameplay more engaged because people would actually be focusing on the objective and tasks that increase your rank. if there is nothing to work toward the rank is pointless and people are essentially playing cod ironically to your comment lol, its not a deathmatch its a point control mode the whole point is to build up fobs and run logistics so you can continue to advance your teams frontline

[@JanSuerth]

I don’t think things shouldn’t be locked behind rank, games like Foxhole show that this isn’t necessary.

[@MrStrider28]

The whole ranking system is bad

[@shadowstrike5692]

the thing is they gotta understand motars are hard to use normal peoples wont do it if its too hard anyway. also the only way to gain rank with supply runs is annoying since they are pretty boring + fia spawns on the route and block roads.

[@Opachki69420]

you can just cap points or idle in a cap point to get xp, also building things gives you rank progression, and the further you travel to offload your supply you gain more xp as well, just play the objective and you will rank up easily