Moving Magnet vs Moving Coil Phono Cartridges - Vinyl 101

[@soundmatters]

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[@VredesbyrdNoir]

Where was the Ortofon link?

[@sidesup8286]

A high output moving coil cartridge or medium output one sometimes doesn't sound much different than the low output version. Less coil winds are best, but that doesn't mean the few more coil winds of the higher output versions demote it to your average moving magnet. It still will likely have the more 3 dimensional depth imaging that moving coils are known for, along with superior openness and transparency and usually far superior transient quickness. I've used them often. I remember a remark made in a UK hifi magazine, "With the moving magnet, it souns like a good recording. With the moving coil, it sounds real." Moving coils often hold back on warmth and bass a bit. Lots of warmth works at odds against the wonderful transparency they exhibit, so they probably do that on purpose, when they do. For those of you with bass controls, turn up the bass a little and your transparency will obviously lessen. There are ones with plenty of bass punch, if that's what you are after. You got to choose wisely. Many preamps and integrateds come with a MM/MC selector switch. Extra cost? Plus the ones with an output of around 1mv. you can often use them with a moving magnet input. Moving iron cartridges usually have more transient speed than magnetic cartridges, but with the cheaper ones, don't expect that you'll get that Moving coil 3 dimensionality, transparency and exciting transient snap. The company Hana makes a nice moving coil cartridge for a little over half a thousand dollars, and it has become a standard at it's price. Why are there so many people who try to make like it's real expensive to get into MC cartridges, reel to reel tape machine format etc. There are good used reel to reel machines like Sony, for under $300. With the price of used factory recorded music titles, usually no worse than prices for new vinyl.

[@ZondvIoed]

Fully agreed. And in recent years we see HOMC becoming increasingly accepted along the higher end audiofile space as an acceptable alternative to the regular/low output versions, but dont need excessive additional stages. Hana is a great example that doesnt treats HOMC as the ugly stepchild and has both a low and high output version available for the full range from low, mid to higher budget: EH/EL; SH/SL; MH/ML. I remember shopping for a HOMC 10 yrs ago and there werent many options for a shibata or microline (Goldring's Eroica HX comes to mind), and now there are.

[@jeffl915]

I am very happy with my Ortofon Bronze setup. I like the ease of being able to change the stylus, and to my ears the music sounds fantastic, even compared to Tidal MQA tracks. Some records sound better, while others do not. For myself, its not a budget issue, I just prefer the MM, and for the cost difference, I am not convinced a MC would sound so much better to justify the price difference.

[@chinmeysway]

Ok

[@lsaideOK]

I had a Denon moving coil cartridge on my Denon turntable for years. But, when the stylus bent, I realized I had to replace the entire cartridge. I wasn't about to pay the cost of another moving coil cartridge and wasn't crazy about the idea of having to replace the entire cartridge if the next stylus got damaged. So I am running a moving magnet now. Sounds fine!

[@stephensams709]

Supposedly, the cantilever and stylus on a MC cartridge can be replaced, but not by the user. It has to be sent back to the company or some reasonable facsimile.

[@lsaideOK]

@@stephensams709 Hmm. I still have the cartridge. Might be worth contacting Denon. See if they would do it and see if the cost of repair would be a savings compared to getting a new one

[@vinylcabasse]

@@stephensams709 the whole cart eventually wears out when the leads to the 'moving' coil break - part of the stress of operation

[@Lasse3]

​@@stephensams709 the so-called retippers take some 400-600 euro for re-tipping your mc.. If your mc is a boron cantilever with nude fine-line you're easily looking at 600 euro, minimum. And there can be a 6 month wait on returns after you send your poor cartridge to the guy.. I've spent alot of time researching the field, and it seems people often have negative experiences after getting their cartridges back, with a sound inferior to the original. Soundsmith are rumored to actually upgrade your cart, with improved sound. But they are based in the US, so I would have to pay a fortune as soon as my cart arrives back in the EU where I live. After my MC Blackbird dies, I've concidered switching to a Sumiko Amethyst MM, with replaceable stylus..

[@GIBKEL]

MC sounds like it stands for “Moving Cash” in the wrong direction. Did you miss any sonics of the MC when you changed the Denon MM? Curious… I love getting old 60’s hi-if pls and hate spending big bucks on little return. Well not entirely, as I upgraded and was so glad I did. Ouch…

[@drkennethnoisewater4469]

Excellent video. Fantastic description.. efficiently to the point. Also the British accent is quite a nice compliment to the dialogue.

[@kadajawi2]

Thanks for the summary! There is also a third (and fourth) variant. Laser based players that work like CD players and optical systems that have a very light needle and sensors that optically determine the position (like those old mice with a ball). Heard the latter, and it was spectacular. Neither system is cheap though and the laser one only works with black vinyl?

[@tonyjedioftheforest1364]

The only MC cartridge that I have owned was from AT back in the late 70’s/early 80’s, I think it was the 32 or 33. It sounded very detailed and had a great soundstage but was too bright and I ended up with listening fatigue. From that I went to a Linn K9 which served me well for decades with the obvious stylus changes and I still use that today in my second turntable with the ATVM95C stylus for older used records. I use a Sumiko Pearl MM in my main system which has all the detail and soundstage of the AT MC but is more relaxing to listen to with the bonus of having a user interchangeable stylus. I have thought about getting a better cartridge though but can’t decide on what so I am watching a lot of KZbin videos for ideas.

[@peterrech2307]

Agree with you. Most MC's sound fatiguing and even if they are the same make model and from same construction batch, they can sound significantly different.

[@BowieorBolan]

Hi Mark. There is also the option of a “high output” Moving Coil cartridge which negates the need for a MC phonostage. I recently got a demo of 2 different ones for my P8 turntable & was blown away by the upgrade in sound quality & detail. Hanna, Dynavector, Ortofon & Audio Technica are some of the producers. They are not massively expensive (the Hanna’s just over £400) and having now changed to this type of cartridge I won’t go back. The 2 I demo’d sounded great but totally different & it depends what type of sound you prefer. I would always recommend getting a demo with your own deck & with a variety of music.

[@stephensams709]

Yeah, I bought a Dynavector 10X5 MK II a couple of years ago. It is a high output MC and I absolutely love it. It was around $750, but worth every penny to me. There are many other better ones, but it is an awesome cartridge if you're moving from a MM to a MC for the first time.

[@richardelliott8352]

I think the added mass of a high output Mc design kind of defeats the intent of the original design, and might make a comparison to a moving magnet cart with the same tip design a more illustrative demonstration . High resolution moving magnets designs are out there, and were developed along with advanced tip shapes when discreet quadrophonic records came out, which used ultra high frequencies to steer the channels. I do agree that moving mass is the key to performance, but I also look at record wear, an aspect of performance never addressed in the reviews of very well regarded MC carts. I don't need or want a race car type of design for my needs, a grocery getter everyday cart is better suited to my system goals, which include record preservation as a top priority. As long as the cart is not mis tracking, wear is not an issue, I just prefer to track at lighter pressures to reduce stylus wear, and just in case something goes wrong, like operator error.

[@PhonoDirect]

@@richardelliott8352 Exactly. These are also sensitive to the overall capacitance load, unlike the low output designs.

[@ZondvIoed]

@@richardelliott8352 seems like you are ill informed or just confusing matters altogether. MC will not wear down your records faster, who told you that fairy tale? Whether MC or MM in itself has little impact on record wear, and if there is, its the heavier/slower MM that will wear down your records faster. But the most important factors in record wear are the wear of your stylus and the stylus shape itself. The standard Elliptic shape has a short vertical contact area and a wide horizontal contact are. Wide horizontal contact area is bad for tracking and will sharpen the tip when it wears down causing damage to your grooves. Short vertical contact area means more local pressure and faster degradation of both your stylus and the local contact area in the groove. Line contact stylihave much larger vertical contact area followijg the groove much better, distributing the weight causing mjch less wear to both. Short horizontal contact area means a lot more precise tracking. There are very few line contact moving magnet styli on the market. So good luck with that.

[@automatedelectronics6062]

Seeburg jukeboxes referred to the stylus as the "armature". The magnet was in the stylus carrier. Then there are the ceramic and crystal cartridges which generate substantially more electrical current. Then there was the Radionics Cobra cartridge(used by Wurlitzer and Zenith), which generated a signal much like a radio transmitter.

[@blueberryred5543]

Very good explanation for mm and mc, I tend to have stuck to the mm cartridge , it gives to me a more suitable and deeper listening ,I have never heard the difference between the two in a professional room set up, budget wise also comes into it, as audiophiles we are all searching for the perfect sound we all live in hope , keep safe my friend x

[@markcarrington8565]

Hi Mark, a good summary but just a few points to add. Firstly, the weight of the cartridge is not determined by whether it’s MM or MC and it has no impact on the downward pressure at the tip, of course, as that’s set by the counterweight position. As a matter of fact, the popular Audio Technica VM95E moving magnet cartridge is considerably lighter than the OC9 range of moving coils by the same manufacturer. The weight of the cantilever, however, is different, as the coils weigh less than the magnet. This results in the stylus being better able to track the groove in the case of the moving coil, as you rightly said. The downside to this is the cartridge can feed more energy through the cartridge body and into the arm. For this reason, it is important to have an arm that can handle this extra vibration with a combination of damping and transmission through superior arm bearings to the plinth. There is no point in spending too much on a moving coil cartridge if your arm and turntable aren’t up to the task. Finally, with a much lower output signal coming from moving coils, it makes the choice of phono pre-stage much more important. This isn’t just for the extra signal uplift that’s required either, it’s to match the impedance and capacitance correctly. A really nice moving coil cartridge can be ruined by a poor phono stage and these can cost as much as the cartridge themselves, or in my case more! In the last year I finally made the switch from moving magnet to moving coil. It’s been a lifelong ambition and financially it was extremely painful. I had what some consider a fantastic MM cartridge, a Goldring G1042, and I really liked it. My first MC cartridge is the Audio Technical AT-OC9XSH and it is a major step up. However, it didn’t pair well with my ifi Zen Phono, hence the switch to my Vertere Phono 1 MkII, which has transformed my record playing system. I’m never going back to moving magnet. Good luck on your journey.

[@richardelliott8352]

very cognizant reply. I had seen arm design evolve from the ultra light weight arms back when MM carts dominated the market, but hadn't really known why, just had read that a MC cart was harder to control , with no further details provided. Once I got a nice platter spinner and arm, I started to realize the real importance of the arm, as before all I ever owned were nice record players where the arm was included as part of the product, so not much to think about. Oddly enough, I still read internet posts where people must have read a bunch of old arm reviews and seek out the old designs to use with MC carts , as though the mechanical properties were timless, like an old book. I once lusted hard after an SME arm design which had the ultimate thinking of the time, having a Shure cartridge , without the body, incorporated into the arm wand of their top of line design. Almost good I didn't have the money to get one at the time, because it quickly became obsolete as cartridge design moved on, and it had no provision for upgrading the built in signal generator, although the rest of the design is still among the best.

[@soundmatters]

Thanks Mark for the detailed reply and experience shared. Sorry if I didn't make my comments on weight clear as by weight and inertia, I did indeed mean the weight of coils vs magnets. Excellent points added about the tonearm and phono stage, much appreciated and it's nice to hear your experience and journey here. Congratulations on making the leap and managing to pair it up with a compatible phono stage. I think I'm quite a way off achieving that myself from a financial standpoint alone. Maybe one day :) Happy spinning, Marc.

[@markcarrington8565]

@@soundmatters Hi Marc, thanks for your kind words, and no apology needed for miscommunication, it’s a hazard of doing what you do! I have to confess it’s actually CDs that have been enabling my journey over the last few years. By learning about electronics I’ve been able to buy broken amps and CD players, but mostly CD players, fix them and sell them on to happy new owners. Everybody wins. Of course, along the way I’ve kept the best bits for myself and added a series of upgrades too. It doesn’t do any harm having a sound engineer as a buddy either! 😁

[@overlandproaudio]

@@soundmatters @markcarrington8565 Not to split hairs but what you are really taking about is mass, not weight. The former is related to the density, the latter is related to the effect of gravity on the former.

[@johnnytoobad7785]

I have a legacy turntable-tonearm combination (Thornes 125 W/ SME-3009) which will be 50 years old this year. For this type of high compliance arrangement the best combination is STILL the Shure V-15 (type IV or V) with an aftermarket hyper-elliptical, line-contact or SAS stylus. Unfortunately Shure is out of the cartridge business. So I'm glad I held on to my Type-V. I also like the Grado Prestige (Blue) and the legacy Audio Technica AT-95 with an aftermarket nude hyper-elliptical stylus (BLISS brand) and a .7g additional head-shell weight. ALL are MM carts. If I was to ever purchase a "fixed stylus cart" it would be be a high-compliance Soundsmith model where the cost of replacing the stylus is never more than 20% of the cost of the cartridge. Grado got me hooked on the sound stage produced by their (Prestige series) "moving iron" carts.

[@zogzog1063]

In Hi-Fi the most important things are the transducers. That is to say things that things that convert between electrical and mechanical energy. These are Microphones, cartridges, and speakers. Everything else does have an impact, eg amplification, but in orders of magnitude it has to be transducers. So if you have a vinyl rig then your cartridge is up there. Short point: MC is overwhelmingly better than MM. But it is not a free lunch. They are more expensive to start with, the styluses are not readily replaceable, and the phono stage will inevitably cost more. Second short point: go digital. However I have had a MM cart (Ortofon 2M Bronze) and it did the job.

[@pip5528]

I have owned moving magnet, iron, and permalloy but not a moving coil yet. I have enjoyed my Grado Prestige Black1, Nagaoka MP-110, Ortofon 2M Black LVB 250, and now my Grado Prestige 78E for my shellac records as well.

[@PhonoDirect]

Iron and permalloy is the same, also "induced magnet" or MMC at Bang & Olufsen. Those are just a different marketing buzzwords for the same principle.

[@aaronhayman8558]

I have an old PF-800 Yamaha table that came with a Denon DL-110 cartage and it sounds very good, better than anything that I've had this far. That Denon cartridge is a moving coil type but one that's less expensive than lots of moving magnet style carts. It's a "high output" moving coil, which is apparently what a lot of the cheaper MC carts are designated and can work with a MM style phono stage, but I found worked better with a Schiit Mani preamp that I upgraded to, which has the benefit of lots of adjustments and is cheap. If you have a budget that's a few hundred (but not necessarily more), it's worth looking into a high output MC cartridge, like the Denon... as it has lots of detail and a low tracking force that tracks records well and likely means longer record life and maybe even longer life for the stylus. The fact that the stylus is non replaceable is a big disadvantage for sure, but the thing is cheap enough that it might be considered a good value anyway. Apparently it can be retipped but the cost tends to be nearly the same as a new cartridge. One thing though that I'll say, is to make sure to do the research and buy a cartridge, whether or not it's MM or MC that is known to work well with your turntable. Different tonearm designs work better with certain kinds of cartridges...

[@awbzerver]

Thanks for another informative and easy to understand video.

[@soundmatters]

Thank you for watching. Enjoy the music 🎶🎧

[@danieldavis5355]

I currently use a Denon DL 110. It can be used w/o a preamp. I’m very happy with it at this point .

[@soundmatters]

Enjoy! Happy listening

[@crisquimicafacil1886]

Wonderful explanation! Thanks a lot!!!

[@soundmatters]

Glad it was helpful! 🎶🎧

[@italianbirdvideos6190]

I think people new to vinyl often make the mistake of getting an expensive cart without realizing that it will wear out pretty quickly with use and need to be replaced. My choice of cartridge is always informed by the cold hard reality that the cartridge will need to be replaced every year or so, depending on frequency of use. So by that standard I have to find a price point that is sustainable every year. For me that happens to be a MM Ortofon 2M Bronze with a replacement stylus running around $300. So while I might be able to afford the Ortofon 2M Black at $650 as one time purchase, there's no way I can sustain that every year.

[@MR-vg7yn]

Yes, styli get worn down... but a replacement once a year seems really excessive. Ortofon claims around 1000 hours of use for their styli "without degradation of performance". That's 3 hours of music every single day and it's the guys making a living by selling those things telling you that. I mean, sure, if you do actually listen to 1000 hours of vinyl in a year (I envy you), a yearly change might be worthwhile, although I'd still go for around 1500 hours or something like that , but I would assume most people out there with a vinyl player listen to it _way_ less than 3 hours a day.

[@paulrogers7067]

One year ? Totally wrong. You would need to run it 24/7 for that to happen . Way of information.

[@Telssa1]

I had a 2M Bronze, but saw a forensic comparison on Hivinyws channel between it and the Nagaoka MP200, which shocked me. It's still there, and you might care to watch it. Nagaoka only claim 200 hours PEAK performance, which I take with a pinch of salt similar to that of the Ortofon's 1500 hours. The Nagaoka replacement stylus costs £130 on Amazon UK, probably $130 in the US.

[@1999zrx1100]

@@MR-vg7ynI agree, once a year is crazy.

[@ZondvIoed]

Again this is a fairy tale. Elliptic styli used in all "budget" MM & MC cartridges wear down much faster then more advanced styli like the hyper elliptic, shibata, line or microline used in the more expensive cartridges. Furthermore the weardown pattern of an elliptic stylus is more harmful to your records. For elliptic styli it is recommended to replace after 500-750hrs max, a line or microline has double that life span. On top of thst they create less noise, are better for your records and track the grooves much more precise. In fact the choice of needle shape is as important as the choice between mm and mc, if not more.

[@richardelliott8352]

I like the punch of a moving magnet on rock and such, where the original higher electrical signal provides greater impact . A moving coil just has a slightly different voice, and most require a higher downforce to track as well as a moving magnet design, I decided to go for the ease of tracing the grooves over ultimate fidelity , since I want to preserve my old records as well as I can. Besides, my MM set up sounds pretty good, I once saw the same deal used at an audiophile show to sell speakers. Although they are, with good reason , the flavor of the day, with some MC designs are modified with higher mass and output to allow a consumer to replace a MM cart with a MC design, for those who want to ape the very expensive multi thousand dollar carts, it is not for me. I always stress over getting the cartridge alignment right, it's so critical and tedious that it kills the joy of a job well done for me. So I really enjoy a replaceable tip, and at my advanced age have to think ahead to when the very critical aliment job might be outside of my abilities, where a replaceable stylus is a much simpler task. I know some people hire out the cartridge alignment, but for me, it is so critical I would still have to double check the work anyway, so not much advantage to paying to see if the set up task was correctly done. I have a fine turntable and arm, but am sticking with a MM design because I mostly play rock and other simple stuff where the punch of the original higher generated output fits the music better. With the goals for my playback system, the ability to resolve very complex resolution from many instruments is not really needed. I also appreciate the simpler amplification chain, because the good stuff can be very expensive. A well proven audiophile maxim is that a simpler chain is always best , and forgoing MC amplification allows for better stuff in the amplification chain for the same money. I do play symphonic music, and to sounds fine in my high quality set up.. But the punch of a moving magnet is better suited to the majority of my records.

[@soundmatters]

Thanks Richard. Great insight and experience you've shared there. I like comparing MM and MC carts to dynamic and condenser microphones. Condenser microphones undoubtedly have a wider frequency response, but you often find some voices and instruments just suit a dynamic microphone better. Very similar with phono cartridges I think, as you suggest.

[@biketech60]

The moving iron cartridges have lower moving mas than MM . The Grado Sonata 3 in their Timbre line is especially sweet , and although not cheap may fit the budget to upgrade . It is available in both a high and low output option . The Soundsmith Otello ES , a similarly priced cartridge is also competitive , and they offer an affordable retip service for their cartridges .

[@surf01er66]

Great education information again .....thanks !!!!

[@sidesup8286]

Blanket statements about moving magnet cartridges and moving coil cartridges are not going to do us any good. There are some fantastic moving magnet cartridges out there but a Clearaudio Charisma costs $2000 I think. There are some amazing NOS moving magnet cartridges on ebay etc. like an Audio Technica ML 170, that will beat some lower priced moving coils. But not for transient speed, transparency or spatiality; those are performance areas where moving coils rule. The Shure V15 V MR was not Shure's best cartridge according to Shure employees. They liked a few other Shure models better; which didn't become as well known. Doug Sax who mastered Sheffield records, said his favorite cartridge and the one he mastered with was the Stanton 881S. A few of these, some NOS can be usually found on ebay etc. It was a moving iron cartridge, which is the third major type of cartridge. Soundsmith makes moving iron cartridges. Moving Iron cartridges are high ouitput. Another vintage cartridge to look out for is the Pickering XSV 3000 and also the XSV 4000. Also a real stunner is the old Ortofon VMS 30 cartridge. It works on a principle called Variable Magnetic Shunt. If you like a brighter sound you may be able to find a NOS Astatic MF 100 or MF 200 cartridge; they were called Glanz cartridges in the UK. Then there was the AKG P8 series and the AKG 25MD. These old cartridges from the golden era of phono are well worth seeking out, and some of them can give expensive cartridges of today a run for their money. If you can find them cheap enough. If buying modern cartridges I would really look into moving coil, even if they need an extra gain stage. Of course there are old NOS Moving Coil cartridges that pop up. The Audioquest 404 and AQ7000 are classics, as is the Sumiko Talisman S, Virtuoso DTI and Blackbird. Also the Monster Cable Alpha 2 High Output moving coil.

[@richardelliott8352]

The problem with old stuff is supply, particularly with replacement tips, not particularly with, as you state, the quality, since the job hasn't changed. I had a Stanton 881s, and when my beginner self bent the cantilever, replaced it with a high line shure which sounded better in my system. It was the first of a string of high line shures until they stopped production, and I now have to get replacement styli from a specialty supplier in Japan. Big influence was I used to travel to New York City, where I could get a top of line shure at substantial discount, and didn't have to deal with the normal mind bending mark up of cartridge selling prices and audio salon condescension of my budget limited system .

[@calvinnapier9977]

A few years ago I found a vintage Pioneer PL 540 turntable and it led me back into vinyl. I put a Shure M97xe MM on it and I'm happy with it. But I'm wanting to upgrade my phono preamp and have been seriously considering the Music Hall PA15.3 preamp. But to my surprise there is next to no reviews on it. Hoping you might do a review about it and it would make you the first on KZbin 👍

[@soundmatters]

Thanks Calvin. I'm a big fan of the Shure M97xe - very transparent and "uncolored". I worked for Shure for the best part of 10 years. I was a shame they stopped producing photo kit. I'll see what I can do about the Music Hall. Thanks for watching

[@calvinnapier9977]

@@soundmatters Worked at Shure, nice!

[@Peter-ii4xq]

An MC let make you hear more info from the record. But a good MC costs from 1000-2000 dollar and a good phono stage also. So let's say about 3000 dollar. Very important is the match weight-arm with compliance-cartridge. Then your turtable has to work together with your amp, cables, and acoustics of the room. My turntable costs about 8000. For much less you can get a cd-player with a reasonable sound.

[@agx502]

It is not worth switching to a moving coil cartridge until you are able to afford a really good phono stage. I would look at the Nagaoka moving permalloy cartridge which use a magentic permeable material close to magnet to reduce the moving mass. The Nagaoka MP200,300 and 500 are truly excellent cartridges which can see off most moving coils. If you really want to get into the MC world the Hana EL is a good place to start.

[@CoomerGremlinDGGfan]

Project has a new fully balanced phono stage. It's called the DS3 B and it's meant for mc cartridges. Very good value.

[@budsmoker4201120]

I love the Hana

[@agx502]

@@budsmoker4201120 I think Hana and Nagaoka are the amongst the few companies making outstanding cartridges these days. Ortofon are just phoning it in, mediocre cartridges, for their top of the line cartridges they are just throwing high tech materials into the mix without too much thought.

[@WalterDavidRiffmon]

Heavy Horses! Great music not known by many. I am running an Ortifon Blue. I've been thinking to go up to the Bronze. I think a Black would not benefit me due to my Technics 1710 turntable. I wonder if some high end MM carts compare favorably with less expensive MCs.

[@soundmatters]

Great album 👌🎶🎧 I’ve not tried the bronze, but at this point it’s worth noting that VTA and alignment becomes much more critical. Less forgiving if it’s not set up correctly. Enjoy the music, the Blue does sound great in my opinion.

[@skularatna8136]

Used to be a proponent of MC until I heard a properly configured shure m447 on a technics sl1200 mk2. Haven’t looked back since

[@soundmatters]

Interesting. I still have a Shure M97xe that I really love. Enjoy the music

[@peterrech2307]

MM's are definitely the most convenient to use and most consistent in sound quality from same make/models. I have used 2 MC carts, AT-OC-9 and the equivalent Kiseki cart, found them both too bright and fatiguing. Both were run on the same table/arm combo, a two motor, belt drive English made Logic Gemini (Linn Sondek class) with Datum S arm, and both carts sounded different. I tried another OC-9 and it sounded different to its sibling from the same batch. On my TT I still run a Shure V-15Vmr with a Jico SAS stylus which I find totally neutral and comfortable to listen to. If/when my Shure goes to cart heaven, I will probably replace it with either an Ortofon 2MBlack or Grado signature series.

[@richardelliott8352]

what a coincidence, I also have been using the same shure cart and the same brand of replacement stylus , with the original cart body being so old that I forget when I actually bought it. I also considered the grado, liking the moving iron designs, but the new LVB ortofon has a replaceable stylus and most all the features of the original Shure, adding an improved suspension material , but not offering a boron foil cantilever stylus, but solid boron is still a top solution. I like the ability to get an OEM replacement stylus from ortofon, but not the price. The S and S is nice, and a real life saver for me, but not quite identical to the OEM design.

[@cubdukat]

I've always wondered what the selling point of a HOMC is. Having more coil windings adds more weight, which takes away from the MC's selling point: greater agility. If you're even looking at an HOMC, wouldn't you just be better off getting a higher-end moving magnet? Then again, I haven't really heard a good HOMC to MM comparison yet, so who knows?

[@mikechivy]

I went from a Ortofon Black LVB 250 (MM), to a Rega Apheta 3 (MC). Its not even a close comparison how much better the MC is. Now. Its over twice the price, but I haven't heard an MM that's even comparable yet.

[@monsieurlehigh4912]

Fair comparison: Take the regular 2M Black using a MM/MC phono stage for roughly the same price and compare it to any MC cart for the same price.

[@PhonoDirect]

@@monsieurlehigh4912 Bingo! Also, make some digital recordings, make it sound equally loud in an editor and then compare. Cognitive bias is a mighty opponent. I honestly don't thing a budget MC Fine Line tip on alu cantilever would sound better than a high-end Ortofon MM design with Shibata on boron cantilever.

[@saltaormina9404]

I have a Rega P6, EXACT-2mm, and Aria MK3. I’ve been concerned upgrading to the Aphetta 3 or P8 and Aphetta 3 will increase brightness and lessen the fullness/bass the Exact-2 gives me …what equipment do you use and what are the sonic differences you bear that make the Aphetta 3 better? What specifically did you gain? Appreciate the dialogue!

[@mikechivy]

@@saltaormina9404I have the P10, the Aria MK3, and the Apheta 3. I have not heard the Exact. However, I have heard the P6 vs the P8, and the P8 is significantly better. Had both in my system for weeks each. The Apheta 3 has incredibly tight bass, almost zero bloat. If the recording is bass heavy, the Apheta will play it bass heavy. It's all about the mastering. I would imagine there is nothing that the exact 2 is better at over the Apheta 3. The Apheta is not sharp by any means.

[@mikechivy]

What Ortofon MM with a shibata and boron cantilever have you owned? Or listened to for that matter? I'm glad your argument is "yeah wait till they listen to an Ortofon that doesn't exist". My apologies for owning the most expensive MM that Ortofon makes, but didn't get it modified.

[@slistone1940]

Which cartridge/stylus do you currently use?

[@aldente80]

Sumiko Blue Point Special. High output moving coil.

[@ashtontechhelp]

"cheap" entry into Moving Coil: Goldring Eroica HX - £549, I believe these can be re-tipped for about £350-ish. - it's a high-output MC design, so does not need a separate MC stage, saving at least another £300. I'm very happy with mine. Otherwise, Goldring 1042, Ortofon Black or above, Nagaoka do some well-reviewed stuff.

[@soundmatters]

Sounds good. Thanks for the recommendation. 🎶🎧

[@robertlakay88]

If you say that the signal is weaker in a moving coil and that the preamp needs extra gain, then surely service noise is going to be largely amplified as well?

[@soundmatters]

I get your logic, but because the signal to surface noise ratio remains the same, this is not the case. Happy listening 🎶🎧

[@stevemurrell6167]

Nice vid mate. I have one MC cart, a Denon DL103 which is a great affordable MC to dip your toes in the MC pool.....but I prefer my vintage Grace MM carts, they're just superb but rare now. Better cantilevers and stylus profiles, whereas the DL103 comes with a simple conical stylus profile. A boron cantilever/microridge upgrade would be very interesting on the Denon though.

[@JohnSmith-zl8rz]

what if my amp only have MM (Marantz Model 50)? and I have a MC cart?

[@soundmatters]

Hi John, in this case, you'll need to buy a separate phono preamp that will take MC carts. My channel has reviews of a few. The Moon110LP, the MC Pro, the SCHIIT Mani 2 to name but a few. You'd then take the output of the external phono pre and run it into an AUX input on your Marantz amp. Hope this helps!

[@JohnSmith-zl8rz]

@@soundmatters thank you.

[@paulanderson7796]

How about some audio samples?

[@jonv2911]

MM or MC? Audiophile or not, this is so much a matter of taste. Some are just for the low end, others are just concerned about high frequencies.. Personally, I have leaned towards the MM league after I purchased Reloop Turn5 equipped with Ortofon 2M Red. This replaced my beloved NAD 5120 turntable. Well, the Reloop is a 13kg beast, a SL-1200 design and honestly is from “another planet” compared to the NAD. My other cartridge is the DL-110 Denon, high voltage moving coil. I tried it on the Reloop but whatever modification I made, it just could not match Ortofon’s warm engaging sound, I really feel at “home” with the 2M red 👊😁.. As you mentioned reg. moving coil cartridges, if you want that hyper audiophile sound, you need a high end record player, top of the line amplifier, pair of Dali Rubicons..etc. I know a few that are in this group and they are still not 100% satisfied with the sound from their gear.. After my experience with Reloop Turn5, I will never go belt drive again, changing pickups in seconds is so much a step up.. I’m already considering a 2M Blue stylus and possibly concord type from Ortofon.

[@soundmatters]

Thanks for sharing. I agree there’s always a degree of personal taste, plus finding a good fit for your system of course. The Reloop sounds great 👍 🎶🎧 Happy spinning!

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

ONE FACT ...............if you want to experience moving coil ..DO NOT COMPROMIZE !!! Stay with very good quality MM ...............

[@johnb6723]

AT-VM95ML - works a treat.

[@mcharrison23]

What does Crosley use?

[@vinylcabasse]

pssst you forgot moving iron. grado, some ortofon, nagaoka, some goldring and all soundsmith carts are MI, and in the case of soundsmith (possibly others) they actually have a lighter generating mass than even the lightest MC

[@soundmatters]

Thanks. Yep good point - less common, but worth mentioning in another video. I need to get my hands on a couple and do some comparisons. Are you running a moving iron cart?

[@drewv1785]

Yes you are correct. I'm using an old Stanton 681EEE (moving iron) with a microline replacement stylus I ordered from Jico. It tracks very well, and has great frequency resonse and channel separation. It's output is a little lower than most moving magnets, but much higher than most moving coils. So it works well with a mm phono stage. From what I've read and seen on KZbin, the Soundsmiths are very nicely designed. I might go that way if I ever need a replacement.

[@AmazonasBiotop]

Sound like a advertising blurb, for the MC. That it can do this and that better sonically. And then drop the bomb that the KZbinr don't never had a MC cartridge that verifying that all that were said were no experience base and only rehashing advertising material and from others that pay more that is needed to say it is more sound quality to motivate their purchase. Pay more should give better sound quality... Or.. We know that price and performance is not always going hand in hand. The interesting thing is IF a stylus on a MM cartridge follow the Grove walls the same as the same stylus in a MC cartridge. So subjective listening tests is not practical or logical to use in many cases. The consensus is that in the other end of the cantaliver than the stylus is sitting. The MM the magnet part is heavier than the MC coil. Then the wight of the MC coil part is depending on how many windings the coil(s) has.. More windings make it heavier like a MM but it will give higher mV output we call them high output MC cartridges. Then the upper hand of a MC cartridge is gone (when the total mass of the unit stylus+cantaliver+coils are the same as a MM.) So then we have the MC that has few windings to reduce its total mass. That in the other hand give us low mV output. But instead we need now step up transformer to get the mV up to a usable level for the RIAA. When we know that that the total mass of the assembly is the only difference for how well a stylus is able to track the groove walls. Then there is MM cartridges that has worked a lot on that aspect. My personal experience is that I got my hifi setup after a alternation so I could hear distortion in the high frequencies (so many systems that has less energy there make it less obvious). Next I happened to have a good made record that happened to be a DMM pressing (=less defined cuts can mask the issue). Lastly when I noticed it on the track(s) then it were one of the things that you could not un-hear anymore. When I know that the higher frequencies is harder for the stylus to have fully contact with the groove walls or in other words not being airborne and between the valleys and hills in the groove walls = the distortion I heard = higher record wear. Now when I had the setup and the test record and everything setup. The thing were that I used a very nice elliptical stylus that were just broken in that used a boron cantilever (!) Just to make the assembly lighter. I tested with another elliptical stylus that were using a more standard aluminum cantaliver but with same result (distortion). Then I switched to a other MM that used a micro line contact stylus that is mimicking the lathe cutter geometry much better. And all distortion were gone! (And remember I had the perfect test setup there I could recreate the distortion.) What conclusions can we take from that? 1. I will never use inferior elliptical stylus in ANY cartridge ever. 2. Stylus choice is more important than the weight of the total wight of the stylus+cantilever+magnet/coil. 3. Stylus choice is then more important than if it is a MC/MM. In other words a MC with elliptical stylus is inferior to a MM with a micro line stylus. The slightly drawback is that the micro line needs a little bit more attention in setup. But if you have reached this far the you are obviously into details and carful in your setup. 👍🎵🎶💞

[@rlwings]

Moving magnet cartridges have become so good today that you really can't beat them under $1,000. So yes, getting a Moving coil cartridge today will be an investment. $1,000+ to beat a moving magnet... See this video from HiViNyws KZbin channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/paDal3tnedGfjqs where he compares MM to MC under $1,000. - It's very clear and well done. (Nagaoka specifically, of course.)

[@soundmatters]

Cool - checking it out now. Yea, I think for most consumers, a good quality MM at modern standards is enough unless you are lucky enough to have a very big HiFi budget

[@frankgeeraerts6243]

The big mistake is to assume the lower output voltage needed to be active amplified ! WHY ...........? ..........The MC delivers an equivalent amount of energy but with substantial lower voltgae output, amplification seems the logical way to go , but in reality the output needs ONLY a conversion between voltage and current.......... MC are therefor missunderstood....... Indeed a good head amplifier for MC ( pre pre amp )is a solution..........but a high quality transformer is the right way to go, only either technology is VERY expensive if you want to reveal the real potential of a Good MC cartridge ! With the right quality solution , what you get out of a very good movcing coil cartridge is a very natural reproduction of Music and NATURAL sounds ............with a real environment feel , as well in widt out of the speakers cabinets and speaker cone...........extended dept perception and above all a perception of HEIGHT !!!!! ..........a recording made in a cave you hear falling the waterdroplets from the CEILING and the foodsteps on the gravel below..........or someone going down the stairs beneath the floor . But in fact a superb MM will outperform an MC when the latter is not up to the ultimate standards nor the following stages , even the amplifier and the speakers need to be on the same quality level ..do NOT6 compromise with MC cartridges or you will being deceived and lost a lot of money you could have spend on a superb MM.......... Lots of faulty and false information circles in the audiophile world .........with stuborn unwreckable beliefs that are NOT facts....... Music must not be superb sounds and very impressive performance with all other those audiophile glorified qualities that audiophiles praise and analyze when listening .......when i go to a real life event I do not analyze as a HIFI system whatever that could be...at home the system should be able to reproduce the illusion of a real physical perceieved piano ; a violin , a concert with a perceived physical presence in a space .............a voice with a human body............the feeling of a sunny day or the fresh atmosphere in the morning ........and above all the system must dissappear when you close your eyes , most systems even expensive high end come not even close, ...with the right MC set up one can gett closer and close the eyes, only to enjoy the univeral vibration and presence of music. It is not a question of money even when good components are not cheap............it a question of make you forget you listen to a set up that permit to connect to music while the system becomes only a tool..................then a good cartridge is the way to start witrh......... For info............I have C17 axccuphase pre pre........( no RIAA ) inside........it weights more than most amplifier, double mono , two power transformers , class A etc , a superb machine and sounding superbly and asthonishing ..............but i still prefer listening with my COTTER MK2L ( silver coils - MC transformer , sounds less HIFI and more natural with air arround the voice and instruments................and it dissappears )

[@bobiktto]

Rothwell sut plus denon cartridge

[@bkkersey93]

Having a Lyra Delos, I'm never going back to MM.

[@soundmatters]

I’ll bet that sounds Divine 👌🎶

[@bryanhenderson4453]

“Scratch the surface”.. lol

[@soundmatters]

😀

[@jacobsorensen9394]

There is a video from Ortofon where they show real actual mechanical parts from moving magnet and moving coil cartridges, and the difference is not really that large with respect to mass and size. Tracking weight and frequency response is not that different any longer. Is the huge difference between moving magnet and moving coil something we had in the 60'ies and 70'ies when technology was still evolving? I use an SL-1500 with an Ortofon Bronze, with a secondary head shell with an Ortofon Blue.

[@MaterLacrymarum]

It all comes down to cost for me. I just can't justify the expenditure for MC. Not least because the increase goes on into the future as you replace/retip your stylus'. I like to think of myself as a cured audiophile. I no longer chase the very best, but rather seek that sweet-spot where I'm happy.

[@pertorner2922]

Hah, your voice sounds similar to jackfrags! Like how jackfrags voice would sound like in 10 years or so. Cool! 😁

[@soundmatters]

I had to look him up. Guess that means I’m not down with the kids 😂 thanks for watching.

[@damianzaninovich4900]

I think mc is the way to go. Even a lower end one is all I need to believe that. The Denon 301mk2 currently $360 delivered if you look, sounds noticeably better than a Nagaoka mp200 and much better than an Ortophon red which I didn’t like at all. That’s what came with my Technics 1500c. It amplified ticks and pops excruciatingly. Very mediocre. I have a $100 Lp gear vessel 3se also, not much detail. You get what you pay for on these budget mm’s. Okay I suppose if you haven’t heard better. With what new records cost why bother? I just got an AT OC9XEN I have yet to mount. It sure looks well made. My phono stage is on a Denon PMA a100 integrated amp or IFI Zen phono of which I hear no difference.

[@gregtapevideo1464]

My Sumiko black pearl MM cartridge sounds great on my mutt stereo system. I dont think I would be able to hear the difference. One hundred bucks. And it will last a few thousand hours of play time if your records are well taken care of!

[@davidh5573]

I went MC for the first time and I can NEVER go back to moving magnet. Trust me...its worth all the downsides...if you call them that.

[@wilfredocortez8327]

now a day rarely good music to hear...my turntable play little only play old music in the past which was very entertaining to hear...

[@ВладимирИльин-о4к]

It is necessary to start criticizing MM cartridges with low-quality magnets, which manufacturers have got into the habit of putting in such cartridges. Samarium cobalt should be used. Well, it’s right to calculate all types of noise and analyze correction circuits from the standpoint of modern circuitry, as Nikolai Sukhov does in his projects. 99% of the shortcomings of MM cartridges are simply their low price and high repeatability, and even with excellent parameters, if they are made honestly and conscientiously.

[@octurn]

Moving coil vs moving magnet vs being told to move out due to unhealty vinyl obsession.

[@soundmatters]

🙂

[@preservedmoose]

101?

[@sorka95032]

Did he say "scratch the surface"? 😜

[@jonsnively9165]

If you play a lot of used and older vinyl that aren't in mint + is Mm better

[@skunk12]

MM vs MC? 🤔........ ☝️🧐 Not Ortophon.

[@jro7075]

there is one thing i do not understand about mc carts if they are better cause they track lightly like 1.5 grams to 2 grams I have several carts of the mm design that track the same ,like the sure 95ed,ortofon ome 5 ,audiontechnica 95e if i remember and what makes them so expensive compared to mm carts ,the moving coil has the coil and a magnet they may be lighter as to give better sound but being lighter should it not be cheaper does it have gold in it ,diamonds ????? i wish there was more info on them ,just because a A U D I O P H I L E says it is it ?????? really ,being an audiofool I believed a lot of things about TT,s records ,handling ,importance of good styli,a lot of it is all poop,to me and this is only my observation it is a way of trying to put yourself above others to make yourself feel superior ,I understand the importance of a good cart ,record handling and so on ,I use to look down on other people who did not follow the audiophile way ,my records never were handled by strangers record player was operated by me all the other things ,i don't think a 1000.00 cart can sound any better than a good brand average priced mm cart if they both have a magnet and a coil ,

[@soundmatters]

Thanks for your comment. When I was referring to mass and inertia in the video, it’s the mass and inertia of the cantilever being attached to a coil (which is lighter), rather than a magnet, which is heavier. Because it’s the coil that moves in a magnetic field rather than a heavier magnetic, the stylus can move more freely and react more quickly to groove modulations. On a record, because high frequencies are little wiggles on the surface and low frequencies are larger “wiggles” less tracking inertia often results in better tracking of the high frequencies in particular. This is the theory, at least. Saying that, it’s a generalization. I get what you’re saying though. Sometimes it can all feel like smoke and mirrors. The concept, however, is very similar to dynamic microphones vs condenser microphones. Hope this helps clarify, at least a little more. Big topic…

[@ВладимирИльин-о4к]

@@soundmatters "On a record, because high frequencies are little wiggles on the surface and low frequencies are larger “wiggles” less tracking inertia often results in better tracking of the high frequencies in particular. This is the theory, at least." In practice, this is not entirely true. The gramophone recording is made with a correction that reverses the picture of the ratio of real amplitudes. Just low frequencies are lost more often with shortcomings of microtracking.

[@alanoc2425]

What is an 'Audiophile'?

[@JamesBond-gg4wg]

The MM has less dynamics and smaller sound stage

[@graemeknowles1431]

Moving Coil. C'mon.

[@Least_6221]

moving coil is hi fi .. everything else is lo fi