CROSS-plane vs FLAT-plane V8: Corvette C7 Z06 vs C8 Z06 vs GT350 Mustang - Engine balance DEEP DIVE

[@d4a]

Support d4a: driving-4-answers-shop.fourthwall.com/ Alos, just a little heads up: this, the video before it and my future videos now have proper English subtitles, not the auto generated stuff.

[@negativeindustrial]

Hey brother, you doing alright? Staying above water? Need any help?

[@japdog9]

hi , im australian and i understand , good accent

[@VAspeed3]

Your English is quite good. I don't need subtitles.

[@whatdharma7237]

Your English is fine.

[@Kaputt512]

Your English is good, but English of some of your viewers may be not so good, so thanks for the subs!

[@enzomatos2307]

for me to go through 22 minutes of "complex" engineering without getting bored once is really impressive, this video is on another level of clarity and entertainment, congrats!

[@turboflush]

Its the pictures.

[@AlainSDL]

@@turboflush hahahaha

[@turboflush]

@@AlainSDL legault... Hahaaa

[@stephenalexander2427]

Video is crystal ! 😎

[@librasd8087]

@@turboflush it would be great if my professors were equipped with slides made with the same care as the images in this video xD hahahaha

[@BrownR87]

The worst part about watching your videos is I keep saying things that make people mistake me for someone who knows anything about cars. I generally know nothing much about cars and engines, but man you really explain things so simply I can actually make sensible statements about things like this now. As a Mustang enthusiast, it was especially interesting to learn about the Voodoo motor and why they chose it over the Coyote.

[@kingshawn1857]

Ok I Know I'm not the only one thinking this is either the smartest mechanic to ever walk the earth or he's reading directly from a script lol

[@storm14k]

Subscribed. Presentation here is excellent. And I also love that GT350 sound and now understand it.

[@mahmoudgamal7647]

totally amazing video, but i cant get why the voodoo crank still reaches high rpm's while it has the same counterweights of the cross plan one ? so why can't the cross plan also gets to high rpms ?

[@d4a]

I should have probably noted that it's still quite a bit lighter than the average crossplane. There's a massive amount of engineering in there to keep that engine from shaking itself apart. The early versions would twist off their oil filters from the vibrations.

[@GraphixJunkie]

DUDE! Fantastic video. You are great at explaining this stuff.

[@DarylCook63]

Coming from a family chock full of engineers, I love how they will go to extremes to accomplish a goal, rather than simply modifying the goal…just like the Ford GT350 boffins. I, too, love the sound of their engine. Cheers for engineers!

[@markusdammasch9108]

I love the sound of the voodoo engine - you can hear all the angry exhaust pulses fighting with each other... but can't help thinking about all the power and balance that's lost among all that fighting... lol

[@scd603]

But still 526hp NA

[@joshbrennan8545]

Another killer video mate. Thank you.

[@tensevo]

You can love or hate the mustang sound, but you cannot deny it has character.

[@Fee.1]

Agree that warble is lovely

[@dayvid589]

Mustangs always sound good. Thats one the thing that they always do well.

[@Michael_00001]

Love my kooky GT350 Voodoo! Great video btw...

[@tahcogunworks]

Wow. That was awesome.

[@captaincoffeecake3595]

Man I love those voodoo engines , Ford may not be the fastest but the have always been hands down the best sounding.

[@Fearless13468]

Wow. This video was amazing.

[@jonpaulschafer1871]

I believe the answer to this question can be found in the movie Ford vs Ferrari from 2019 they didn't want to sound like a Ferrari there is a lot of bad blood between them what do you think

[@TheAdatto]

My Maserati has a crossplane and it always sounds like it makes double the revs.

[@arpadmiklos7339]

Even as a Camaro and crossplane V8 fan, I find the Voodoo's sound very-very unique and appealing, it's indeed as if a crossplane V8 went berserk, but in a good way :). Thank you for these rare high quality and in-depth explanations you provide.

[@firstNamelastName-ho6lv]

It sounds awful IMO, like a cry for help

[@SamBrown3787]

@@firstNamelastName-ho6lvyou must like the sound of v6’s and I4’s. Peasant

[@ClickbaitMotorsports]

Except for the whole "reliability" thing. All these GT3500 investors trying to upkeep the GT350 stock are comedians. 🤡

[@ClassicTVMan1981X]

@@firstNamelastName-ho6lv Or like a Detroit Diesel two-cycle 8V-71 in a highway bus (think the MCI MC-9 or the A3 line).

[@stiltongruyere9691]

I tried to mimic the piston motion with my energy drink, and it exploded when I opened it. Horsepower!

[@rarelycold6618]

I have a dirty mind, but something would explode in my example too

[@ivanbrasla]

@@rarelycold6618 your timing is too advanced :(

[@rarelycold6618]

@@ivanbrasla nah, it took a while

[@Jonathan_Doe_]

Did you shotgun it for maximum intake velocity? And chug a glass of milk after for maximum ‘exhaust pulse velocity’?

[@redbandit6277]

NO.

[@kevinorozco906]

Legitimately my favorite car tech show on KZbin

[@zayseeu8337]

Because he knows his STUFF and he's cool

[@tayl0rd553]

Yeah, he's even better than Engineering Explained. I enjoy both channels.

[@Dethjingles995]

Same... It's the best car show on KZbin

[@chiefdenis]

I agree that he's better than engineering explained, he's very easy to follow

[@Th3Birdman]

I am a car guy and I know a lot of this information, but the section at 4:55 was incredible and something I've never seen demonstrated before. I will absolutely be checking out that channel, thanks for the recommendation.

[@jaybruce593]

@vimal d BHP = (torque x RPM)/5252 is for calculating flywheel outputs, to calculate at the wheels you need to multiply this by the gear ratio and deduct transmission losses. So plugging in a 2.5:1 gear ratio and 15% transmission losses would give you Wheel BHP = (((torque x RPM)/5252) * 2.5) * 0.85) with the 0.85 being the whole 1.0 power minus the 0.15 (15%) lost through the trans mission --> propshaft --> diff --> half shafts --> hubs --> tyre deformation

[@lucianconstantin2051]

I watched some of your videos and now i see you here, indeed a nice surpise :))

[@bolt5564]

@vimal d horsepower= torque * RPM / 5252 This is true at the wheels and at the engine. For example if you had a engine that produced 100 lb feet of torque at 5252 RPM then you have 100 horsepower at the engine, now (assuming a frictionless drivetrain) if in third gear your car had a two-to-one gear ratio (your engine turns two times for every one turn of the wheels) you will have twice as much to torque at the wheel but they will turn half as fast so you will end up with torque times RPM divided by 5252 is equal to 200 lb feet * 2626 RPM / 5252 = 100 horsepower at the wheels. Engineering explained has done the best video I have found on this topic, but what really made it click with me was messing around with some Lego motors and gears.

[@bolt5564]

@vimal d I realized that Engineering Explained has done a lot of videos on horsepower and torque so here is the link to the one I am taking about kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIulopVmj6-Grbc Or if you just want to search for it is called "when to shift gears for the fastest acceleration".

[@Somanybeats]

Yeah that was pretty cool

[@KevinMardirossian]

The Voodoo sounds so amazing, I’m glad they sacrificed a little bit of efficiency and engineering common sense to make it happen

[@richardprice5978]

actually it has a better firing order that is more even and spreads out the neighbours heat and pressure and crankshaft and camshafts loading and in some ways better for oiling. i know not offices on the first quick look 👀 but looking closely you can see it and other good reasons for the voodoo crank. as for the exitsoste manifolds it's for packaging and assembly/cost cutting and has a ok side effect of a different experience and sound ps. not a fan boy of ford as i drive old mopars ( and would love ❤️ a 4.5-5in stroker crankshaft for my hemi. so credit is due to ford even if my favourite sound it a stocker 6-pack ish 1968-72 444RB cold start with the thin wall aluminised steel pipes ) and chevys

[@gaddyify]

Z06.

[@richardprice5978]

@@gaddyify no old 60's big block Chevys for me 😁 not frarrie sounds as it sounds like a bee 🐝and i can't stand the way it feels and sounds

[@gaddyify]

@@richardprice5978 Are you talking about the LT6 in the new C8 Z06? The most powerful NA V8 in automotive history?

[@richardprice5978]

@@gaddyify nope not for the sound

[@nfareview]

Amazing video! Yup, people always forget how the dual intake plenums and TB's add to the Ferrarieske sound characteristics of an FPC.

[@derekwalker4622]

Nice try, it would be "Ferrari-esque" as a proper spelling.

[@nfareview]

@@derekwalker4622 👍 How many have you owned? Gonna be a dick? I’ll be one right back lol

[@taylorpratt6287]

@@nfareview more interesting is how chevy has chosen the dual intake but there will be three valves connecting them, not that this is new but it is interesting, it would be great if he dove into explaining why and how it effects the sounds also, I've seen another recent video from someone briefly explaining how it helps with balance but that's it, not a real dummy explanation as i need and enjoy, this dude does an awesome job

[@nfareview]

@@taylorpratt6287 Ferrari did the same thing with the F136 engine in the 458 Italia. :)

[@teekay_1]

@@derekwalker4622 His spelling is correct for Ferrari's exported to Russia.

[@MrTwoInc]

Phenomenal video. Personally I think the cross plane pushrod V8s are the best sounding engines. I also like how simple and Compact they are.

[@Torch4Life]

particularly in large displacements too. Nothing idles better, your ears can hear the torque it has even at idle

[@paulchristenson5256]

Compact? For that, I like the Ford V8 Flat Head not to be confused with the Flat Plane. ;)

[@challengerRT392]

I agree.

[@mateuszkucharski1350]

You think do, cause they are the best sounding engines. Flatplane is not even close.

[@olivialambert4124]

The explanations have become exceptional here, frankly the best I've seen anywhere for a lot of topics. The demonstration of sound for the Voodoo headers was especially great for me. I understood the concept immediately, but actually hearing the difference was still shocking enough to make me smile with the surprise of it all.

[@simonward5833]

Where were you when I was falling asleep during mechanical engineering lectures? Your clarity and succinctness are second to none.

[@mario18sebast]

x2

[@jaybruce593]

This was an outstandingly well produced and extremely informative yet entertaining video, thank you very much for making it.👍

[@ricardof.casellas665]

Owning the Gt350 felt in the ropes about the hype of changing headers. Your video made me realize how important are the OEM short headers to the intended sound design. So I won’t change a thing.

[@aaronschocke2147]

It can be a bummer when aftermarket is a letdown in an area that has a certain appeal outside of performance.

[@The3chordwonder]

I'm going to definitely agree with you, the sound of the voodoo is the best sounding engine I have ever heard. The Coyote sounds great/mad and the LS sounds big and burly, and the typical flat plane smoothness/scream are wonderful sounds. The Viper's crazy firing angle vs ford's offset pin v10 would be another interesting video if you want to continue this sort of analysis. But the Voodoo just sounds like it is insanely mad and ready to explode (But in a good way). I buy engines I can afford, and whatever car they are attached to is second choice. Voodoo was out of my price range, so I have a Coyote with a Mustang GT connected to it.

[@richardbaumgart2454]

it's all personal preference...i still like that old school cross plane sound..just like some people like the sound of an american v-twin and i can't stand them

[@darrylsjodin7184]

Ya, I like the voo doo sound too, and the mustang coyote sounds cool. I have a LS6 with a Corvette attached to it.😀 It sounds great but could be louder. It has factory titanium exhaust, so it could last forever! And my wife probably won’t let me make it louder😂

[@niero4201]

Voodoo is the only V8 engine I've gotten my older brother to like, he HATES the sound of V8s, but the Voodoo sounds so intense, best description I've heard of the sound is that it sounds demonic, like it's possessed.

[@802Garage]

Potato potato? 😂 Never heard that one. I get it when I say it out loud though. Not the next video I expected from you, but phenomenal as always! This is why I love boxer engines though. So simple. 😀 I just want someone to make a flat 8. If nobody is gonna do it, I'll do it myself. 🙃

[@Xayuap]

Of course there ar flat 8 but nowhere tu put them anymore. They don't fit

[@d4a]

I can't believe you haven't heard potatox2? Maybe it's really old and pase and I didn't notice 😅 Let's build it together. You, me, a solid block of iron, lots of files and some jb weld. We build massive social hype and then have it explode om on the first start and pretend how we didn't see it coming.

[@GetOffMyLog]

@@d4a tomato tomato is more common i think thats what he meant

[@Xayuap]

@@d4a And the audience pretending they weren't wanting the explosion.

[@aethro4375]

@@d4a I guess you meant cross V8's with more aggressive cam design cuz' they really are potatoes.

[@Fender7495]

Sorry but i have a question: you said that the cross-plane v8 can't reach up to high RPMs. How did BMW managed Rev his S65 up to 8.300RPMs?

[@cjmunnee3356]

Small, lightweight pistons that don't need heavy counterweights and a really short stroke do a lot for RPMs in a cross-plane V8.

[@finish_my_projects]

It's EASIER to get high rpms in a flat plane crank, and probably even more important it will Rev faster.... you can make a cross plane Rev really high, but the heavier crank may impede performance with such a wide rpm range to traverse... none of these statements are absolutes, it's all about a design making something easier to accomplish, less exotic materials, better long term reliability, packaging of the motor, cost, ect...

[@Meekmillan]

Always thought the GT350 sounded like a kaiju, like it could’ve done voice over for pacific time or something. Now I now why, it’s because it’s just weird. Lol

[@cstavro]

Torque is a function of displacement...stroke and rod/stroke ratio have minimal effects. LS3 can easily be made to rev to 8000 rpm...the pushrods don't hold it back. The LT1 is held back by the GDI system. It should be no surprise that smaller engines can rev higher. The Voodoo crank weighs more than the LS7 crank! So the flat plane is not the reason it revs higher. It's very much about piston speed limitations. You also have accessories that can't run above 7000 rpm, or torque converter automatic transmissions. The Z06 has a DCT, very nice crankshaft, titanium rods, and a fluid harmonic damper. My vote for engine of the year.

[@peekaboo1575]

I always thought that the Vodoo engine was nothing but a regular flat plane V8 with uneven headers. I am a little puzzled as to why Ford did not just do that. If you can make a crossplane V8 sound exactly like a Ferrari by using some fancy exhaust than surely there has to be a way to do the opposite, no? Anyway, nice of you to point people towards Moser's channel. That guy's work is criminally under-appreciated.

[@kayvon_is_likes]

Perhaps amateur V8 enthusiasts would've seen through that too easily? Even when engineering heavy and fast conglomerations of metal that need to be efficient and safe it seems companies can still take liberties for marketing's sake. I've yet to read an exposé on the supposed technical reasoning behind the manifold/exhaust design on the first 4-cylinder 718 Porsche Cayman.

[@adampetten1009]

So glad you did this video as I was curious on the differences of the vodoo.. I really wish this car was still in production. Here in Canada at least GT350r cars value are gone through the roof, people are making 30 to 40% over msrp. A buddy has one with aftermarket exhaust and its pure sex.

[@GoldenNada]

A flat-plane v8 sound like 2 inline 4 bangers because well it is lol.

[@maxxwelthrix432]

This channel is an educational gold mine, the GT350R is my dream car.

[@ghostwrench2292]

GT350R is definitely in my top 10 of all time. I love that voodoo engine!

[@Niroborn]

I like your balance videos a lot! Can you overview more exotic engine layouts like V12, V16 or opposing pistons engines, please!

[@Fred-fc8dv]

Stellar content and crystal-clear explanations as always, thank you very much, and especially for the better English subs

[@baymoto553]

What a great explanation of the differences in these engines. Made me even happier that I managed to purchase a 2016 GT350 a couple of years ago. And I agree that the sound of that engine is the best V-8 sound (imho anyway). Thanks for a great video.

[@RBZ06LT6]

He literally said it was the worst design and that it was pointless. Typical Ford nonsense again.

[@baymoto553]

@@RBZ06LT6 Wasn't all that pointless as the new Corvette will be set up with a flat plane crank as well. Don't knock it until you try it. The Voodoo engine is a classic as is the Shelby GT350. In the 3 years since I bought mine the value has increased by -/$8,000. I'll take more of this typical Ford nonsense anytime.

[@WilliamMoser]

nice one, cheers for the mention!

[@d4a]

It's the very least I can do. Thank you for allowing me to use your awesome stuff.

[@rod928s4]

Absolute perfection!! Stunningly researched, amazingly well-scripted and presented and your English is perfect! This is THE definitive video for the comparisons of these engines in my opinion.

[@tayl0rd553]

The sound of the Voodoo is definitely an acquired taste. When the GT350 first came out, I borderline hated the way it sounded. However, I still bought a GT350R despite the sound. It takes a while, but the sound does grow on you. I still won't say I love the way it sounds, but I do love revving it out to redline. I'm actually disappointed that Ford caved to the knuckle draggers and didn't make it sound like a traditional flat plane V8. That would've been badass. That aside, the Voodoo just sounds mad as hell ALL the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

[@duomaxwell5807]

I fell in love with the GT350 before it even came out...one of Americas best hands down.

[@rod928s4]

Yes, I agree with what you are saying, tayl0rd. The LT6 certainly does belong in the new Vette and I'm now even happier with the Voodoo sound as well. I'm glad the GT350 doesn't sound Euro-exotic, it just sounds different...mad as hell, like you said.

[@gopherit4952]

Im.glad they made it different. Totally unique

[@tayl0rd553]

@Peter Angles Maybe he didn't feel like racing a 4-banger was worth wasting the gas. If you stick to trying to race the Ecoboost and old V6 Mustangs, you might have a better chance of them racing you.

[@lumiapowered8463]

@Peter Angles Not everyone's looking to race on the street...save it for the track

[@ssllhh100]

the 350 sound has that x factor that no other engine has, i wonder what it would sound like if it was smaller like say a 4.0, would it sound and feel like compared to the audi RS4 and E90/92 M3 ...

[@justinjwr]

Make some weird headers like that and find out

[@steveflor9942]

Superb content here. Wonderful video! I would add: The Voodoo is a nearly square engine. The other flat-plane engine are all oversquare. I attribute to the Voodoo being part of the Modular engine family. As such, inherently hamstrung by bore size limit.

[@airplanesandfootball]

Agreed. Excellent job! I also want to point out that the reason why they didn't choose to go with the two intake plenums is that they didn't have enough space in the engine bay. They lowered the height of the hood of an already tight engine bay so they just didn't have enough space to have two intakes.

[@lowlifeangler]

Gee doesn't Subaru have a square shaped engine?

[@nthgth]

@@lowlifeangler the FA20 is square, yes

[@keithcannon3682]

Kooks headers on voodoo sound the best!

[@keithcannon3682]

Put some itb's on that voodoo and it would be perfection!

[@productiondesign9474]

Outstanding explanations. I really enjoyed the clear detailed descriptions and demonstrations.. As the owner of a GT350, it's interesting to hear how the flawed approach created not just a great sound but quite an amazing engine. We run this car with three drivers in back to back to back track sessions all day long and it's been flawless. The sound is distinctive from a mile and a half away.

[@ClickbaitMotorsports]

And a very unreliable engine. Thank you for beta testing the engine for all G3 Coyotes and Predator owners.

[@km6832]

The voodoo is a really great engine and sounds amazing.

[@rarelycold6618]

Best sounding flat-plane

[@Lanse1984]

Yeah no not even close. You do know flat 12 and v12 engines are flat planes right? Lol

[@kevin9c1]

Unfortunately for all of the things an engine needs to do aside from sound it's pretty badly compromised. It's still cool but it's not even close to being in the same league as the LT6 or other true flat plane engines. But, I give them credit for sweating the sound.

[@288gto7]

@@Lanse1984 lol, please show me how they are flat planes. If you look at a v12 or inline 6 crank you ll see that crankpins are found at 3 planes. There isnt a term for them but they would be tri-plane. The crankpins are situated on 3 different planes

[@rarelycold6618]

@@Lanse1984 forgive me, I left out v8 because this video was about v8s

[@Naggstek]

Secondary forces are so tough to wrap your head around when first learning about them, they just don't quite seem as intuitive as the primary forces. After i watch a few more of your videos i think i'll have it. Lots of great information in here like usual!

[@chemwrite]

Truly great video! You answered a burning question about the Voodoo engine. Thanks a ton for that. I have a question and maybe a request. Could you address the V-10 engines that Chrysler and Ford made? I believe these were V-8s with the blocks extended to add two more cylinders. But what did they do to the crankshaft? Do they have split-pins to replicate a 72 degree firing order? I can't seem to find a photo or an article that addresses this. These V-10s have been around for years and I still don't know how they did it.

[@electric7487]

The Ford V10's have crankpins split forward by 18° so that each pair of cylinders fires 72° apart. The same is true for the older 5.0 Lambo V10, which is why you can make a Gallardo sound like F1. Even fire V10 pros: Even firing, less torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes between 1.58 and 0.36 times the mean torque), smoother, lighter flywheels can be used. Even fire V10 cons: Perfect primary balance requires a boxer configuration or 108° V angle with +36° split crankpins. 90° and 72° angles have a significant primary rocking moment. Split-pin crank not as strong or stiff as common-pin crank. The Dodge Viper, BMW S85, and 5.2 Lambo engines have non-split crankpins and thus fire unevenly (with firing intervals alternating between 90° and 54°). This is why the Huracán sounds like a 5 cylinder and can't sound like F1. Odd fire (90°) V10 pros: Perfect primary balance with only crank weights needed (no balance shaft), stiffer crankshaft. Odd fire V10 cons: More torsional vibration (instantaneous torque goes from 1.91 times to 0.012 times the mean torque, and you have more high-order harmonics, with the 7.5 and 12.5 orders being the worst offenders in this engine), rougher running, heavier flywheel required.

[@botondcsak7455]

Ford in the US: “We want Mustangs to sound like mustangs so we wont put a regular flatplane V8 into it. Also ford in Europe: *puts a 2.3 4cyl ecoboost into the Mustang Makes sense..

[@SoulTouchMusic93]

i bet there are more 4 banger stangers sold in america than in europe. i believe over 80% of the mustangs sold in europe are gt ones. we buy mustang for the v8 because if we want a boosted 4 cyl there's the focus.

[@botondcsak7455]

I dont know about the US but in Hungary I see like 1/3 ecoboost and 2/3 gt mustangs. I just cant ever understand ppl buying i4 mustangs.. like you said. Buy a focus then 😅

[@tedjones450]

It should be noted that GM is using Titanium connecting rods to lighten the reciprocating mass of the engine, which is interesting.

[@288gto7]

Lot of manufacturers have done that with flat planes. first time ferrari did it was with f355 in 1994. increased mass increases secondary forces thats why they are doing everything they can to lighten the rotating assembly

[@devandrasimanjuntak1646]

as my above comment stated, it’s actually a common practice, but I believe this is potentially the first time we’ll be getting those rods in a car less than $100k (I say potentially, we don’t know the price of the C8 Z06 just yet)

[@jkl6868]

The original NSX had titanium rods. In 1990.

[@RBZ06LT6]

@@jkl6868 did the guy say they were the first? He just said its worth mentioning it. Jeez, calm down..😂

[@jkl6868]

@@RBZ06LT6 🤣just an FYI to let people know that this is not new!

[@Sillylittlestug]

You’re like the Anton Petrov of car science

[@kevin9c1]

I think you are going to have to issue a correction on your explanation of the relationship between stroke and torque. Simply put, there really isn't one. It is a myth that long stroke engines make more torque. It is correlative but not causal. Torque is really generated by a combination of cylinder displacement and volumetric efficiency. Yes we can also talk about BMEP and stuff but cylinder displacement and VE will get you the closest to predicting the torque an engine is able to produce. It has nothing to do with whether the stroke is long or short. I can use a simple example as proof. The naturally aspirated LT2 makes about 470 lb-ft from 6.2L. As we established it has a much longer stroke than the LT6. The LT6 makes 460 lb-ft from 5.5L. It turns out the LT6 actually makes about 10% MORE torque per liter of displacement than the LT2. I am going to guess that the rpm at which both engines produce their torque has to do with many other factors (and STILL not stroke), such as exhaust, intake manifold and head design. Long stroke creates an INCENTIVE to optimize torque at a lower RPM range because it can't rev as high in the first place. But the AMOUNT of torque is NOT less. In the case of the LT2 vs LT6, it's actually more. A theoretical 6.2L LT6 would make almost 520 lb-ft. Naturally aspirated. It will still have a shorter stroke than the LT2.

[@d4a]

Yes of course other factors play a part too I never said they didn't, but I'm really curious how you will disprove that more leverage makes more torque all other things being equal?

[@kevin9c1]

@@d4a OK let's take a 500 cc cylinder. If I achieve that 500 cc with a long stroke or a big bore, doesn't matter. In the long stroke, small bore engine, the long stroke provides a long lever arm from a small bore piston, resulting in a torque. In the short stroke engine, the lever arm is shorter but because the bore is bigger, it produces about the same torque. So the long stroke amplifies a smaller "bang" more and in the short stroke there is a bigger "bang" and less amplification. That's about it. I guess it would be nice to show the math as to why this is the case. Or just watch this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYHJq2Swl8xggKM

[@ae.droidlivingroom9849]

@@kevin9c1 @ Driving 4 answers I agree with both, and both good explainations compliment each other, and can be further clarified by noting the asumptions made in the comparions. D4A compares the stroke and its lever effect using constant FORCE, which implies the long stroke engine has a higher cylinder pressure (so that engine must have increased Volumetric Efficiency and regardless of how that is achieved.Therefore, that is as noted by Kevin not fair or correct to let the stroke alone take all the credit for torquue gains, made by increased cylinder pressure as when the force is held equal. Long stroke tends to be more efficient due to the longer distance travelled by the piston, allowing more time to fully burn and extract most out of the energy from the combustion. There are other slight benefits for either type, but the rod angle and distance / gradual pressure characteristics helping completer combustion are the only real torque benefits from long stroke alone. A comparison at comparable average cylinder pressure / VE would be better to explain the contribution of stroke alone. Bigger bore on the other side has benifits in VE since bigger valves and ports van be used etc, but the shorter stroke means less distance of travel to extract the torque, decrasing the average torque.

[@nhytg376tgyuu765gjmg]

@@d4a more leverage means smaller piston which creates less force. Torque is force times leverage.

[@dre04mach]

Not all pushrod engines have only 2 valves per cylinder... ford's 6.0, 6.4 and 6.7 diesel are 4v per cylinder... and same with the 24v cummins i6s.

[@rich7447]

The Duramax is 4v per cylinder too.

[@dre04mach]

@@rich7447 I thought we're only talking about engines that work :P

[@rich7447]

@@dre04mach I have a couple of Cummins (ISB and M11-450) and even I find that a little harsh. LOL.

[@dre04mach]

@@rich7447 Heh, the isuzu is so far overdue for a reengineer it's not even funny... same with the LS - but at least we know that's getting replaced with the C8 z06 motor sooner or later. It might be kept for trucks, but I don't see it sticking around in the camaro/vette much longer.

[@rich7447]

@@dre04mach LS is a popular swap in.

[@abetterworld96]

Flatplane crankshaft is all for me. Also, props for the clear explanation, never watched a better one. U just earned a subscriber.

[@mikewatch1487]

The voodoo engine has a thirst for oil. So much so that many have failed and had to be replaced. I would never buy a used 15 to 19 GT350 once the warranty expires. The second generation voodoo block is much stronger and is the one to get. But unfortunately it’s the 2020 model year only. Ford raced the voodoo engine for one year and gave up. Vibration issues caused the engine to have to be rebuilt every other race. Private race teams weren’t going to spend the money and ford decided this wasn’t good either. So they dropped the FPC race engine and went back to the CPC design. Thus the Mustang GT 4 was created. Ford never really explained the other issues with the voodoo race engine and it’s still a mystery to this day. But let’s just say it wasn’t ford best attempt at creating its flag ship engine.

[@crowdsurfpp2192]

I beat the hell out of my 16 track pack and had 0 consumption issues. Pads and tires were basically the only headache. And that’s with any track car. I beat the hell out of it for 14k miles before jumping back into a pushrod car just because of switching back to the drag strip. Hands down the most reliable “off the shelf track car” I have ever had.

[@fedsn8k]

It's actually 19-20 that came with Gen 2 Voodoo's. Just so you know.

[@r4360]

2019 is second gen, I got one, burns No oil, But my old 2017 gt350 inhaled the stuff.

[@JayRussellDuramax]

The redline of an engine is MUCH more dependent on the valvetrain than it is on the weight of the crankshaft. If you increase valvetrain rigidity, cross-plane, pushrod engines can easily rev in excess of 10,000 RPM - and be very snappy and responsive.

[@Lanse1984]

Ford also lost tons of money in grenading Voodoo engines. Hence why it was discontinued even as demand for it was very high. Its honestly a frankenstein engine.

[@toddmajo5093]

Absolutely not why it was discontinued. Car was a limited run from day one.

[@ghostwrench2292]

I’m a Ford dealer technician at a large shop. The only voodoo engine I’ve seen blown up was because the owner missed 3rd gear and got 1st when downshifting on the track. AKA money shift. Carnage was impressive. 🙂

[@LeslyBarahona-uq1xu]

​@@ghostwrench2292😖wow

[@ellisjackson3355]

I'd have to say that my favorite sounding v8 is the P60B40 by BMW. There's also tricks to play around with cross plane crank sounds like x pipes, 180 degree headers, 8-1 headers. These are basically tricks to "rearrange" the exhaust pulses so that they can facilitate better exhaust scavenging. As a result, it does smooth out the exhaust tone and sounds more even firing and scream-y. I also like the sound of high revving nascar v8s

[@288gto7]

Ah yeah gotta love the bundle of snake headers. They look so good as well

[@imadude85]

For me the v8 in F355 sounds best.

[@CaptainDayne]

Bmw 8's are junk!

[@porschelover04]

@@CaptainDayne generally, you'd be right. But look up the P60; it's a pure racing motor (and the S65, for that matter)

[@CaptainDayne]

@@porschelover04 Ive worked on enough of the twin turbo v8's , and the tt v8 with variable lift cam. Believe me say no to bmw v8's. When they are right they run! But they break down alot! Faulty valve seals , coolant transfer pipes, turbo coolant lines, And cam lift followers(stamped steel). Ive had one that locked up due to excessive carbon build up in the combustion chamber. So ill pass!

[@gmoroder]

Great video! I think it'd be cool to compare the C8 Z06's LT6 engine to the original DOHC LT5 used in the C4 ZR-1. Both have overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder, but I believe the LT5 doesn't have a flat plane crank, among other things.

[@ghostwrench2292]

You are correct. LT5 is/was cross plane crank. Nevertheless, in the early ‘90’s it was impressive that Chevrolet built and put a DOHC V8 in a Corvette.

[@drfaticus]

@@ghostwrench2292 gm did not make that engine,it came from lotus.

[@gmoroder]

@@ghostwrench2292 GM and Lotus both cooperated on the engine. It was put through lots of endurance testing to ensure reliability, so it doesn't need as much service as a Lotus powerplant thankfully. Overall a very cool engine

[@gmoroder]

@@drfaticus Both Lotus and GM cooperated on it, to the point where GM briefly bought Lotus for the project's completion. The engines were then manufactured at Mercury Marine's facilities, then shipped to Bowling Green, Kentucky to be installed in ZR-1 Corvette's. There was also an LT5 in one variation of the Lotus Elise GT1, stroked from 5.7L to 6.0L, twin-turbocharged and given a flat plane crankshaft. Most Elise GT1's ran with the Lotus Esprit's 3.5L twin-turbo V8, however.

[@drfaticus]

@@gmoroder ok thats what you think,which is fine.My thought is gm did not come up with that at that time it was lotus like i said earlier.

[@288gto7]

Ford used this layout because it gave the best breathing characteristics with their weird 4-3-1 headers. And they had to use 4-3-1 headers because 4-2-1 or 4-1 did not fit in the mustang engine bay with the cats they wanted to use.

[@captainwin6333]

They did this because of the sentimental attachment of Americans to their notion of what a V8 sounds like. The result is a very compromised engine.

[@AugustoRallo]

This makes a lot more sense to me, changing crank arrangement just to go for a sound signature sounds (pun intended) a bit silly to me.

[@finish_my_projects]

@@AugustoRallo no lol he's not correct at all, they compromised their engine for sound, the headers they use take up MORE space than the correct 4:2:1 headers a flat plan should have (with the correct crank) as evidence by the fact you can purchase aftermarket headers in that configuration that fit

[@paulslevinsky580]

I work with a couple of guys that own those mustangs. Without knowing why, I came to the conclusion that they sound amazing. Now I know the why.

[@beast427]

God I love the way the GT350 sounds. Very happy I get to hear it everyday when I start her up!

[@Tapioteme]

Why Top fuel engines still use crossplane?

[@denniswobbe3157]

Honestly, I really enjoyed the video. I knew that the firing order was different between the Ferrari V8s and American V8s. But didn't know the why. And the way you described the sound of the Voodoo engine. It sounds like a cross plain that lost it's mind. That was pure genius! And I will laugh about that for s long time to come

[@shanedillon25]

Thank you!I am a Old school Chevy nut but very well explained. Thank you again!

[@switchlanez]

This summarizes the difference better than what I cobbled together from articles and 5+ other videos about FPC (including your older ones). And I STILL learned new stuff about FPC in this one. Outstanding. Going to share this on the C8 and S550 Mustang groups.

[@t.a-8469]

I can't believe I watched the whole video I just wanted to know what was so special about the voodoo engine . Needless to say I know now and some! Great video .

[@brianwhite9671]

Another great video! The clarity you bring to complex topics is excellent! I do want to point something out at 2 minutes 20 seconds. There may be a bit of confusion when you say that an even firing interval improves balance and smoothness. An even firing interval, by itself, will not improve balance, just the smoothness. To the uninitiated, there may be some confusion that, somehow, mechanical balance is affected by firing interval.

[@AlainSDL]

I love engine sound. I roll down the window to hear other people's cars, much to my wife's annoyance. But I drive a utilitarian, pragmatic, and budget friendly car so I must live vicariously through others. I once spent several hours in a convertible Camaro and was very disappointed that the exhaust was muted to the point of sounding like a 6 cylinder. I was told that the target market of the convertible Camaro did not want a loud car... I don't understand those people. The sound is definitely an important part of the experience for me. The sound of the Mustangs has always been among my favourite and agree with your opinion of the GT350. The GT350 is most certainly enjoyable to hear. Great video. Enjoyable, entertaining, and even educational. Until today I had very little undertanding of the differences between cross plane and flat plane crankshafts.

[@donguhl2499]

Yet another totally awesome video!!! You sir, have set the standard! Thank you!

[@Kj16V]

20:07 Literally sounds like a Mustang married a Ferrari and this is the resulting Italian-American kid's accent.

[@billthompson9595]

I can't say enough regarding all the work that has gone into to above excellent tutorial. A BIG THANK YOU! I have learned so much.

[@fasillimerick7394]

I'm an older, native English speaker and I hope I'll one day be able to explain things as clearly as you. No really, I have a degree in electrical engineering and if someone asked how a light switch works I'd wind up talking about valence shells and the opposing ideas of electron flow versus hole flow. Most diagrams show a circuit with electricity flowing from positive to negative, but negatively charged electrons move from ground to a more positive monkey. Did I mention quantum tunneling yet? Anyway, thank you.

[@Nathan0A]

Ah yes, compromising engine design to achieve "the sound" your target audience wants. Reminds me of Harley Davidson........

[@electric7487]

That's the yahoos straight-piping their Harleys and bragging about "LoUd PiPeS sAvE lIvEs". Not Harley themselves, but definitely annoying.

[@williamhardes8081]

Ford Australia used the unequal length headers on some of their performance V8's in the early 70's and got very good results. the sound of that voodoo engine is absolute music to the ears.

[@LeslyBarahona-uq1xu]

Wow🤩

[@CJRyan-lj7zz]

A heavy crankshaft certainly adds to the flywheel effect, making an unladen engine gain and lose RPM more slowly. But how could it limit operating RPM?

[@midnightblaze6988]

Functionally it doesn't. He's wrong there.

[@Johnny_OSG]

Because it vibrates and flexes more due to its own weight, also puts more stresses on the bearings. Of course you can't rev it high despite that, just lot less reliably

[@Dayandcounting]

Most red lines are soft red lines today determined by when the power rolls over. As such a flat plane because of the exhaust scavenging will make peak power slightly higher delaying rollover by a few hundred rpm everything else being equal.

[@timnb0340]

the gt350 actually sounds like a flat plane and cross plane combined to. the rumble at low rpms and the high screaming sound at high rpms. insane engineering

[@288gto7]

Do you know why modern cross planes started to narrow the counterweights at the ends but added thicker counterweights at the middle ones

[@Roddy_Zeh]

My guess would be to try countering the rocking effect on the crankshaft? Trying to set the extra weight more evenly throughout its axis?

[@d4a]

Adding weight more towards the middle reduces the flexing at higher rpms. More modern cross planes in general rev higher than older ones so that's likely the main reason. If you look at crankshafts of inline fours you will see that all non-fully counterweighted cranks rev to a maximum of 6500 rpm, whereas everything that goes beyond has a fully counterweighted crank (K20 is a nice example of a crank like that).

[@288gto7]

@@d4a i see, thanks

[@massimofalsone4784]

Haa its amazing What happens when cp v8 and fp v8 had a baby They have a voodoo v8 engine Grate video👍

[@ChadRazorback]

Man, that ford voodo engine sounds amazing. Speaking of rumble.... I'd love to hear what a boxer engine with a crossplane crank would sound like. Unless i'm missing something, unlike an I4, an H4 with a crossplane would still be balanced, and might be able to get that rumble out while still using equal length headers, since it will now have un equal firing intervals.

[@johndorn9752]

I'm definitely no expert on this topic but I believe this would result with the 2 Pistons at top dead center or bottom dead center while the other two would be in the middle opposed. The issue would then be additional rocking forces. Because the two in middle of stroke would be imposing less 2ndary forces to those at the either tdc or bdc and therefore creating a little rocking force on the crank. It is an interesting thought experiment and I wish I could try it in practice with old parts.

[@ChadRazorback]

@@johndorn9752 Imagine an H2 engine. It's perfectly balanced as long as the crankpins are 180 degrees from each other. (aside from a very small rocking couple due to the pistons being offset by an inch or so.) So put two H2's together where the first pair are at 0 and 180 degrees and the second pair are at 90 and 270 degrees. I'm also not an expert, but I don't see how this wouldn't be just as balanced as your flatplane crank H4

[@avancalledrupert5130]

I like 4 5 6 or 10 pot engines in general because when I think of V8 I think of cross plane and it's awful noise . Flat plane V8 sounds glorious but you don't get them in cars normal people can afford 🤷

[@ohroonoko]

My man, you are the Brian Greene of automotive engineering. You give the clearest explanations for non-engineers. You really should write some books if you haven’t already. There’s no shortage of car nuts who would love to have a better understanding in an accessible way of how things work.

[@jonathanmcauliffe784]

Can you do a video like this but comparing v10s? Like lfa and carerra gt vs Lamborghini designed v10s (r8 included) and Dodge Viper v10. That’d be really cool

[@dwayneeller5160]

I have to say I just turned 34 and realized that I need something to do being as I'm disabled and sit at home most of the time so I've decided to start me a project car and this KZbin channel along with a couple others has helped me get a great start on what I need to do and what I want out of my car.this guy right here is very detailed and I like the way he explains things

[@Vlamyncksken]

If you have the energy and able body required for a project car then you're able to work. So you're either lying or a lazy bum

[@crxtodd16]

Very informative. I didn't realize the Voodoo was so unique. They made an inferior design for sound. Huh. Cool.

[@77jaycube69]

Cause this Murica that's why...lol.

[@robertpoudrette4483]

"A nut job of an engine", I like that! The Mustang does sound a lot better. So now I know why the Voodoo doesn't sound like the Ferrari and the Vette LT6 doesn't sound like a Mustang... Shame. Good job Ford!

[@HOLAATODOS-os5te]

Sound like a ford fan boy🤣

[@Xayuap]

You: Voodoo is just the name of an haitian religion and has no sense no gain and is stupid. Also you: Voodoo is the best of three world and the best sound I ever heard of.

[@kareareawbg]

Engines put in hair colour terms. Blondes and Brunettes are nice... But you didn't know how much you needed that redhead till you heard how fun she was.

[@randyhavard6084]

In my opinion the cross plane v8 sounds better at lower RPMs but a flat plane sounds great at high RPM.

[@scottjohnson3063]

Best content on a channel I’ve ever come across, been here from the start. Great work!

[@mont7481]

Great job, great engine and car. Even from the 60s with the factory tuned exhaust manifolds, the mustang has always owned a distinctive sound that is borderline hit music. Good job Ford

[@Richard4point6]

Your discernment is exceptional!

[@sgsjake3904]

FINALLY! A VIDEO EXPLAINING THIS! I always try to explain to people why the GT350 flag plane crank isn’t even a GOOD flat plane crank, but they just get so hung up on “flat plane crank” that they can’t see the massive downfalls of the Ford variant

[@finish_my_projects]

Just Ford doing Ford things 😂

[@MaaZeus]

I on the other hand have massive respect for Ford for doing something new, weird and out of the box. We already have Ferraris, BMW's and Audi's super cars. They are engineering marvels, perfection, but also nothing new and kinda bland at this point. Car manufacturers should take more risks, make something new and fun that breaks the molds just for the sake of it instead of aiming for yet-another-perfect but ultimately characterless machine. Have more artists and visionaries than text book engineers. Be outrageous like Lamborghinis of old before they became Ferrari 2.0. Sure not every car will be a hit but at least there would be a lot more memorable ones.

[@sgsjake3904]

@@MaaZeus the issue was it wasn’t about “being weird” or “adding character”, it was because Ford was being cheap and didn’t want to restructure the front end to account for the dual plane intake manifold that would be needed for a traditional flat plane firing order

[@seanc6754]

Yeah I'm not sure Ford is going to be getting rid of the flat plane just yet.. ford peeps including me (I like both ford and gm just as much) are going to want to see some kind of answer from ford that IS just as affordable

[@d4a]

True! The rivalry between the big names in the US is so nice. One big thing from any one of them pushes all the others to answer with something. In the end the buyers benefit from the competition, the way it should be 😊

[@coolomino]

Very educational video! Should know all of this stuff :)

[@jamessizemore7103]

Voodoo definitely has a pissed off machine gun sound

[@MyWatchIsEnded]

This question is coming from the place of ignorance but honest curiosity, Why is it not possible to fire in sequence from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 5th to 6th to 7th to 8th? Like this: 1 -- 2 3 -- 4 5 -- 6 7 -- 8 Kind of like a caterpillar or centipede using its front legs first and then progressively moving further back to the rear legs to propel itself forward.

[@SynKronik]

Vastly inefficient configuration

[@jameshaulenbeek5931]

That would require a very complex crankshaft assembly - think 2 crossplane crankshafts offset from each other. It would be very heavy, and the counterweight necessary to counteract the imbalances would make it generally incapable of producing any real power.

[@802Garage]

It's possible as far as I know, but I think the primary reason to avoid it is to reduce undesirable forces on the crankshaft. Putting all the force on one crank pin twice in a row repeatedly for every section of the crankshaft would cause a lot of twisting force that could shorten the life of the crank and create extra wear on the supporting bearings. That's my guess.

[@d4a]

You can imagine combustion events as a "hit" on the engine...and you can imagine the engine as a boat. Your goal is to keep hitting the boat without sinking it. This is is why you want to even out the distribution of your hits from the outside in and then from the outside out. Every combustion event essentially tries to unbalance the engine or "tip the boat" so you hit it on the other end to prevent it from tipping over. Hitting it repeatedly in the same spot will obviously sink it very fast. Excuse the slightly stupid analogy :)

[@GetOffMyLog]

@@d4a stupid analogy? No, that is very intuitive for a layperson to understand?

[@garyschulz7768]

The discussion surrounding the relative benefits of either cross-plane or flat-plane cranks and RPM performance is pretty much secondary to the benefits of tremendously more rigid valve trains and multiple valves per cylinder/breathing capability. The earliest V8's were limited to flat-plane designs because they were far simpler to build and lower cost. Don't forget that the V8's at the highest levels of specific output (with commensurately high RPM's) are cross-plane (things like nitro burning Chrysler Hemi's etc). Yes they don't last forever while producing 13,000 HP but if there was some major benefit to using flat-plane cranks in these engines they would have done it decades ago. Ford didn't want to have their car sound like a Ferrari? I'll take the sound of a Ferrari over a Mustang any day! At least the C8 Z06 comes very close in this regard. EDIT: Also needs to be noted that in many of the highest performance aftermarket applications, flat plane cranks as found in Honda's and many others, use fully counterweighted designs and run them at crazy high RPM. The rotational inertia of the crank is dominated by the flywheel which has a much higher radius of gyration (far more mass farther away from the axis of rotation). If you need better throttle response more is to be gained from reducing mass at the flywheel than by the removal of counterweights which are super close to the axis of rotation. In short, cranks are definitely not the biggest determination of an engines RPM or specific output potential despite all the market hype coming from manufacturers.