SlinTalk - The 5cp game mode is flawed

[@FUNKe]

Do you think resetting point captures without changing player locations would work? Example, blue holds 4th for too long, let's say 4 minutes, points reset and now they have to recap mid, ideally with a slower capture rate that becomes extremely fast when stacked with multiple people. Now the attacking team is forced to send at minimum one scout back to recapture, giving defenders number advantage on a potential push. Ideally the mid cap becomes extremely slow when it resets. Attackers cannot take last because mid has to be capped, defenders now have an opportunity to push without major reprocussions. It would be best to insentivize two players recapping mid, because a single scout cap still leaves attackers with a hard to crack stalemate, but it at least creates an opportunity that your defenders dying might not be terrible because they can respawn before attackers take 2nd again.

[@defectivenull]

that doesn't sound like a bad idra

[@Tr0tim]

I once made a 5CP variant where 4th resets - tf2maps.net/threads/tf2maps-net-72hr-winter-mapping-classic-upload-thread.22100/page-2#post-295770 The layout of the map itself is totally rushed because it was made in 72 hours... but a mode like the one you suggest should be possible!

[@pigsareit]

+Tr0tim I thought of your map also trotim B)

[@MRSLIN]

it doesn't work that way in practice because the maps are too small. in fact the meta is going the other way. say you're pushing a point, it's better to push past the point and lock down the chokes, then cap afterwards. all you're doing here is allowing the team holding middle to continue holding on to their defensive advantage. the reason why 1-man sacrifice plays work so well is because defensive advantage is very very strong.

[@baransenyuz9382]

there should be max 3 mins of game time without any caps

[@UncleDane]

Great points, no pun intended. Would increasing the respawn timers be effective? I feel like a lot of the time, when someone gets a pick, if they don't have an opportunity to push in right away, or they also lose a player around the same time (making it 5v5), they just don't bother pushing. Maybe increasing the length of that window of opportunity to make a move could help break a stalemate? I guess an issue I see with it right away is that's not fun for the player to be dead for a long time. Otherwise, I'd love to see the competitve rotation incorperate other game modes, it just comes down to the quality of the maps I guess. Swiftwater is already a pretty long map, even by Payload standards. I'm curious to see how other, shorter Payload maps would play out in 6's. It's just another issue sprung from the fact that this game has never been balanced at it's core around 6v6 before - it's always been developed with pubs in mind.

[@ke2]

first lol

[@estragonsenf537]

Payload is pretty bad for 6s because it basically is 5 cp with long cap times and the nature of the game mode makes it even less likley to roll. Make higher respawn timers would make teams sac less and wait longer for sniper & spy picks. Increasing the capability of scouts and soldiers to sac (eg putting nerfed gunboats stats on the soldier) would make the game less stale.

[@MRSLIN]

There's a ton of ways they can handle it but getting a 30-40 second respawn timer sounds brutal.

[@estragonsenf537]

it would stop players from going in.

[@sushiio7369]

This is quite cool, a lot of notable tf2 KZbinrs have all come to comment. I love how close the tf2 community is.

[@zalf1641]

And you can clearly see who are sellouts since Muselk isn't here

[@theotv5522]

@@zalf1641 Muselk doesn't play comp. And this video only has 22k views. Assuming 3 years ago, this would probably only had 10k views. In other words, Slin isn't really well-known enough to attract the TF2 community.

[@iKonakona]

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I didn't know there were problems with stalemates caused by the game mode itself. I heard of things like different class limits and white listing weapons causing stalemates, but I never thought 5cp would have a problem. Would something like a 5 minute "shot clock" be a good balance? Even in pubs I think 10 minutes to capture a point is a long time. I kind of wish payload and attack/defend was used for competitive. TF2 practically invented the payload game mode, but it seems like those maps are designed for 12v12, not 6v6.

[@RedRobot101]

This has been on my mind recently too. I believe there's a way to adjust the maps into segmented 5cp, which splits the game up into a mid fight, then two attack defence segments. Of course, there are a ton of problems with this, a lot of the coolest things of 5cp are the freeform territory exchange and lack of round timers interfering with gameplay. Also, replacing second/last defences with attack/defence segments would make specialist classes more viable, which could be seen as a very bad thing. That being said, introducing a forward spawn/reduced spawn timers as a reward for the attacking team getting capture time on the point, we could see a standard mid fight round -> attack/defence -> attack/defence format with each win netting the team a point with shorter round timers (maybe longer setups to let medics build uber more quickly) which would eliminate stalemates. I feel like players would have a big problem with breaking up the gameplay into a round based system, so it's possible we'll never see this format investigated.

[@003Jetfire]

Nek minit comp hydro lol

[@003Jetfire]

On a more serious note, the class variety would be interesting. However, wouldn't this mean that the team which wins the mid fight is essentially guaranteed to win overall? Any thoughts on how to avoid this?

[@RedRobot101]

Jetfire Well you could say that about any map, of course the team that wins mid should get an advantage, the win rates of the the secondary and tertiary points would have to be carefully controlled.

[@003Jetfire]

One of the points Slin made was that between two comparable teams, the mid fight can essentially be a coin toss. While yes, winning the mid should grant an advantage, it shouldn't leave the defending team with the options: camp for stalemate, or lose. The other game-modes, such as payload and attack/defence don't have this problem, but can still allow for tactics selection such as greedy steamroll vs steady push. Admittedly, the defending team still doesn't have a variety of tactics to chose from, but both teams are guaranteed to be in both situations, allowing them to demonstrate their skills in both roles.

[@shybandit521]

So after they take mid, they lose if they don't take 4th and 5th? And the defending team is no longer trying to take mid, but wins if the attackers don't take 5th? King of the Hill to decide who is Attacking and who is Defending?

[@MaxAlokin]

"Welcome to SlinTalk a new show where I talk about competitive 6v6" What were you talking about before? minecraft 12v12?

[@Ordnance_T]

minecraft 12v12 is a good idea tho

[@DuckSwagington]

(I'm talking in Competitive/HL terms) This is why people play payload more then 5CP. You can't stalemate the game forever. That Cart is always moving at any given point and the defenders until usually either back off when shit gets too real or push forward if they think they have an advantage. Payload is inherently aggressive. Forcing the attackers to push up and up and up all the way to last to win. This means Defenders can't sit around and stalemate the game forever as eventually that defensive point will be capped no matter how much you try. I know the idea of the defenders is to slow down the game however to win it you need to be as fast as you possibly can to win. if you look at any HL demo, about 98% of the time the attackers cap last solidifying my point that defenders cannot just Hold forever. They will lose. PL games are Longer, however it does encourage the aggressive playstyle that 5CP lacks. You cannot win by stalling the game on offense. which make PL better then 5CP. However, 5CP is better suited for 6s and most PL maps are horrible for 6s, as seen with Swiftwater in MM. That's not the Gamemodes fault, its the maps. If we got a PL map that is short enough for 6s it *MIGHT* work.

[@duyang980]

i like 5cp because of the freedom it has, srsly who wants to stick to a cart for 15 mins

[@DuckSwagington]

uu D about 50% of the TF2 Player base. And there is little to no freedom on last points as 50% of your team are F2P engies setting up on last and the other team is doing it as well. That's all 5CP maps on Pubs, Community or Valve.

[@duyang980]

yeah, i think we need a dragon

[@DuckSwagington]

uu D lol

[@vincent-ls9lz]

Competitive Payload Race? Probably not considering there's only three maps..

[@hidood5th]

I think Payload is probably the best competitive game mode we have right now. Its simple to understand, has a bunch of great maps like Badwater and Borneo, and the attack/defend dynamic allows for more class diversity without resorting to Highlander's model. The matches also dont have the problem of droning on for 30-40 minutes due to constant time increases.

[@halfpace1462]

And promotes specialists! Comp badwater is F U N

[@beejay99ah]

You know what this means. We need a dragon in Team Fortress 2.

[@Mugnum_]

HHH just SLAYS defensive team

[@KingAwesome8218]

Perhaps it's partly to do with map design. The most common 5CP maps are CP_Granary, CP_Process and CP_Badlands. CP_Granary and CP_Process are both hugely spacey. Players can spread themselves out really thin so you uber, and you get maybe the one pick, but the team has probably rotated to the other side. Such generous space for the defenders allows them to rotate around the enemy uber fairly effectively and dodge easily, not to mention they can off course go behind the shutters if they're being focused down really heavily. CP_Process, while way more compact, has the problem of the spawns being so close. There should be a fair bit of distance away from the spawn to the main area contested to the control point. My humble suggestions would be: 1) Map design changed to reduce total size of large spacey maps (Note: NOT chokepointy, but with less space to manoeuvre freely) 2) If not 1, nerf scout, because in such wide spaces scouts dominate, especially as they are the kings of 1 V 1. Reduce DPS in a way that still makes scout great for burst fire and for flanking attacks but not so much as scouts are now where they can rush around, deal damage REALLY fast, and wipe unless countered by other scouts. 3) Map design changed to put spawns further away from control point (A bit more like CP_Granary)

[@rabidtf]

it comes down to bad map design, last shouldn't be a fortress for the defending team, reducing the defensive advantage and making it more even which in turn makes the momentum advantage for the team that has the upper hand more important.

[@MRSLIN]

But even if you design a map that encourages people to push in every way possible, nothing FORCES a team to push since you have 10 minutes to do anything you want. You could give a team a bazooka that has 100 crit rockets loaded into it and nothing forces that team to use it, it can instead be used defensively as a way to hold middle even better. You could design a map that gives you height advantage that's four stories tall and you're still not forced to push. That's why I'm advocating for a forced change of power as opposed to passive encouragements to get aggressive.

[@rabidtf]

it might not force them to push, good point however, with the map and positioning reducing the effectiveness of stalling the opponent, there's less of an incentive to do so, as you'll be limiting your own options by not capitalizing on possible advantages and maybe on more even grounds one player dead can potentially make a difference, especially with the current focus on team-fights in the meta.

[@AEPPLE_MUSIC]

It's worse in 9v9 where it's really hard to get enough of an advantage to make a proper push.

[@richardcopersroommate8928]

mfw hl is still a thing . no likes or cares about 9v9 man .

[@ENDfilms44]

+Aymen Cherni people will play hl till non 6s class mains can enjoy 6s more.

[@AEPPLE_MUSIC]

Aymen Cherni Lots of people do. 5cp is my opinion is a horrible gamemode anyway, that makes the majority of classes way less reliable, which is why we have the 6s meta that we have.

[@richardcopersroommate8928]

Apple 1) ur finals last night were getting 50 views .that s not alot of ppl 2)5cp has some flaws but it s the best thing we have , unless u actually think gamemodes like payload are good .

[@AEPPLE_MUSIC]

Aymen Cherni I didn't hear about any finals. That's probably why no one watched it. I would have definately if I had heard about it :P Oh and yeah. True. The game is build around payload (or at least A/D maps), but that doesn't fit with a 6v6 format. It was made for 12v12, which is why payload maps are long and slow. They are pretty fun for highlander though and I think it's where highlander shines.

[@shm.2313]

Maybe overheals/speedbuffs/dmg buff on cap? to insentivise keep the ball rolling

[@ftobin]

What if a team could win, in addition to the current way, by simply having the most amounts of points held (time-weighted) if the timer runs out? This is mixing koth timers with 5cp. This way defense can't force a stalemate simply by holding last, because attackers will have held more points for longer. This would encourage defense to have to push and at least mid or further for a while. I'm not sure how to encourage attackers to push and not dig in, but perhaps they are simply being rewarded for winning mid.

[@WillieJeng]

How about a stopwatch after second is capped, and if last isn't capped before the timer ends, the defending team gets a buff to help them push out back to mid and have another midfight?

[@ptitjo2920]

Attack/Defence and Payload are the only gamemode that should be run IMO. 5CP also omplicates the use of specialized classes since some are more usefull for defense but not so much for offense but the issue with 5CP is the gameplay can go back and forth while Payload and A/D forces the gameplay into one direction. This is also the format used in CSGO for comp

[@ptitjo2920]

5CP's back and forth hybrid gameplay too heavily favorizes the use of generalist classes over specialist ones

[@arontimes5042]

Hey Slin, when you said that 5CP is the most popular map among players and spectators, I have a feeling that this may only be true for players and spectators who are already into community 6s. As someone who isn't already interested in community 6s, I don't like 5CP because the constant back and forth edges out 4/9 classes in the game. Since there is no stable front line in 5CP, classes which are dependent on positioning, require prep time, and lack mobility are horribly underpowered in this game mode (talking about Pyro, Heavy, Engie, and Spy). With King of the Hill, Payload, and Attack/Defend, you have a clearly defined front line which lasts for an extended period of time. This means that the slower classes I mentioned above are much more useful compared to 5CP where speed is life. In Payload and in Attack/Defend, RED gets a lengthy setup time which allows these four classes to get to the front lines and get into position. They don't get left behind by their faster teammates, and playing as one of these classes doesn't automatically give up mid to the enemy team. My suggestion is to open up the map pool to other game modes, not just 5CP and one KOTH map. The community should not be afraid to take risks if it wants to thrive. Right now, I see the inmates running the asylum and stifling the growth of community competitive with weapon and map restrictions. The restrictions the 6s community places upon itself puts it at odds with Valve and the greater community. Community 6s is an entirely different game with an entirely different philosophy compared to normal TF2. Also, people have mentioned the problems with Payload in 6s (be it community 6s or Valve 6s), and I believe that the problem lies in how the game was designed for 12v12 drop-in and drop-out gameplay. In a normal pub game, the fastest speed at which the cart can be pushed (x3) requires around 1/5 or 1/6 of your team dedicated to pushing. In 6s, it requires 1/3 of your team. Payload maps are generally larger and more complicated than 5CP maps, which further complicates things when you only have half the normal amount of people that the game is assumed to be played with. I don't have a specific suggestion for Payload, but one for how maps are made. We need different maps for different player counts. Swiftwater is bad for 6s because it was designed for 9v9 and 12v12 play. What about making different versions of maps for different player counts, or even dynamically changing the map so its opens up when more players join, but then closes up when there's only 12 players in the game? As a former Starcraft player, you know that different game modes use different maps. 1v1 maps which can support more than two players exist, but you generally don't play team games on the larger 1v1 maps because they were not made for team games. Similarly, there are team maps which are small enough to play 1v1 on, but you'd never play 1v1 on them because they simply weren't designed or balanced for that kind of play. I'm not going to delve into weapon whitelists, as that's a whole other can of worms that I don't have time to deal with right now, but what we need are maps made specifically for 6s and for 6s to be opened up to more kinds of maps.

[@moustache5557]

#ReviveArenaRespawn

[@guavasmuggler2903]

Hi slin upload more, thanks bye, see you next year

[@gabriell.1437]

dude

[@nnwccc]

wtf why it must be next year

[@guavasmuggler2903]

Go outside and socialize and then you'll know what a joke is.

[@pepsy910]

lmao

[@stepanex]

I was thinking about it and I think i've read about it somewhere as well. What if the cap time would stay same but the team who has the most cap points at the end of cap time wins that round? Also the teams shouldnt just get one point for wining a round but get as much points as they controlled cap points at the end of round. It would force team to push from last, but wont force the team to push to last, so lets make it that last will give you 2 points. That way if you would be just waiting on 4th point and the cap time would be over you will get 5 points but the enemy team would get 2 points as they kept the last and if you would control all 5 cap points your team would get 7 points. I haven't really thought that through but at the moment it looks like fine idea.

[@bhx6252]

I vote that we make DeGroot Keep the official 6v6 map

[@blacklight683]

I played a game of 3cp and the game gone for 3 hours cuz either one of the teams cap the mid point cuz no one can. and we got stalemate cuz its from 2points and both teams have 1 points so its the last one going like for 2 hours and we start to say just cap and end it but no one wanted to lose so we kept playing for an hour until I got in nearly caped and died and my teammates pushed and cap

[@Sizzyl]

These issues also translate over to casual (unless teams are unbalanced enough to steamroll). I honestly can't think of any real solutions other than making the maps physically smaller and the points closer together or just increased respawn times as Uncle Dane suggested. However as you replied, a 30-40 second respawn just isn't fun and also for the map shortening thing, then we'd see a lot less cool and fun rollouts which is a real specialty that comes from the 5CP maps generally being so open and long. The only other idea I have that maybe could be worth an attempt is making the defending team spawn a little further from last. Most of the stalemates I've been a part of are largely caused by how easy it is to hold last for expended periods of time due to just how close the spawn is. Obviously the defending team should still have an advantage, but adding a little bit more of a walk to defend it could maybe fix the stall-related issues that are so common in this mode. That being said, I do actually like how long 5CP games go on in casual. From a casual POV it's like a more competitive hightower/2fort game that actually ends eventually. You get the benefits of a longer game while still keeping some stakes and therefore keeping the fun up a lot more, so I'd be curious if maybe the comp maps only got their own set of changes, it's not like valve themselves run TF2 comp so it should be pretty easy for the community to test out. That way TF2 casual stays casual and fun but comp could fix the stalemating issue that's so boring to watch/spectate/play competitively.

[@MRSLIN]

@@Sizzyl You're spot on that pacing is different for comp vs casual and the maps are truly designed for casual.

[@LmocinemodSD]

Random thought: What if we were to somehow do away with last point chokes all together? As in, widen them to the point where you can't really lock them down, so the best way to keep the enemy out of them is to either 1: Use "off"classes like Heavy or Engie to provide mass area denial (and thus decreasing pushing ability), or 2: Push further into the enemy's territory so they have to fight you sooner. I know this would essentially require the maps to be completely redesigned, but this is meant to be more of a thought experiment than it is an actual suggestion. I don't actually think this is the best thing for 5CP. Please give me your feedback, I'm eager to hear what you all have to say.

[@SurrogateActivities]

"What if you get 1bil dollars" Now that's pro gaming talk.

[@TombomOfficial]

Love you Slin. I love seeing you still in the TF2 community. You were one of the people who got me into 6's, and my life hasn't changed since. The game is still alluring even after all these years. I wish it would have gotten some love from valve. Hopefully maybe the community can retake the helm somehow.

[@ianbrudnakvoss3126]

Wonder if a sort of mix of 5cp and moth might work. Have a central point that is worth a lot but then have smaller caps that give you some sort of set advantage, a Tannenberg style game mode that incentivizes breaking down play, flanking, and provokes a reaction from the defensive team.

[@Avviwosh]

may i introduce cp_steel (that would be the best map in the game if it had a bit wider corridors)

[@ianbrudnakvoss3126]

@@Avviwosh yeah a less chokey steel and all the points are open and re-capable

[@Gamemstr1234]

What if the cap time on points was reduced by a large margine. Incentivizing teams to just push hard enough to cap it out. And capping the point back within a certain time like trying to re cap within a minute is a lot longer than a fresh point cap so it would be easier to aggress and hold onto new points?

[@LarkSist]

What if uber charges were to expire in like 2 to 5 minutes so the meds have to use them or lose them? Surely it would incentivise teams to capitalize on them?

[@ZestyLemonSauce]

Hey, Slin how about 3 cp? I know that the one currently in game isn't that good of a map. But maybe a mapper could make one that's fun to play and solves problems.

[@treetoon-tf]

5:46 the thing is, if the enemies are smart they'll just hold last another minute instead of capping fourth point so that the round can reset instead.

[@MrSnikeZ]

how about changing the medigun so that a minute (or any other more appropiate amount of time) after building 100% uber it starts to decay again

[@N0ClF]

I can't take anyone seriously with that banana picture in the background.

[@xenit7837]

It's mostly 3 things holding this game mode back. 1. You get 10 MINUTES AFTER CAPPING. 2. There isn't any big flank routes and you're forced into a small corridor. 3. Picks aren't too influencing besides medic and sniper, you're not going to call out to your team, "I got one scout" losing 1 scout isn't a big loss and he comes back near second later

[@dar0971]

set the round timer to 10 min, and don't let it increase in time but also allow overtime if there is some cap time on a point

[@hamouz1999]

it sounds like "park the bus" in football

[@boonekeller5275]

In Short: Too many stalemates Too narrow class comp

[@halfpace1462]

Y are u everywhere

[@ClassMRule]

I actually liked how much slower TF2 was, it wasn't boring to me. Watching comp Overwatch by contrast looks too chaotic, and is too fast paced to follow all the action at once.

[@ClassMRule]

That said i haven't played or watched TF2 in years... so maybe he has a point

[@eimazd]

I agree that the teamfights are a good pace - it's hard to follow everything that happens in an OW teamfight, whereas it's relatively easy with TF2, maybe with an exception of a Granary mid with the containers limiting what can be seen. But last point is almost ALWAYS either a roll or a three-minute stalemate, which is a problem, because watching the mercs do nothing but wiggle around for three minutes as they wait for the other team to overextend is really, really dull.

[@iliketrain10]

I believe sideshows video really pointed out the flaws, from a guy who's used to watching these ResidentSleeper EU games

[@inFamousDaxter]

Could we just lower respawn timers for every captured point? Or enable random crits when you own more points?

[@Ang3lUki]

The problem could be fixed by playing a mode that allows more than 4 classes to be played.

[@techielewis]

Maybe give each team points at the end of each round depending on the number of points that they own, as well as decreasing the round timer. The round ends when the timer runs out, or when one team captures all control points. Maybe as well each point needs a different value associated with it.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

8:20 Tf2 version of the dragon can be Merasmus. He comes and if you kill him, you get buffs.

[@beejay99ah]

slin, opinions on the cowmangler, now it reloads just as fast as stock RL?

[@Kaguluman]

I'm not sure if this works, but they should make it where the more Control Points you captured, the faster the ubercharge is built, it may seem broken but in i58, as long as you can have a good defense you can hold a push. Doing this will force the other team to push after an uber was used, for example, Blu pushes second in Gullywash with an Uber, Red was in a position where they could back out. After Blu captures second they have a higher charge rate forcing Red to push into them as soon as possible to recap.

[@TheTdw2000]

Competitive Hydro when?

[@ninjabumaye]

That problem reminds me of the 2016 European Football Championship ..

[@b3arodactyl]

what about pushing flank

[@Silver_Knee]

What if the caps reset to the initial over time? So if you're stalling out you will lose all caps until it is neutral in center again?

[@teamtrevien3970]

for me tc_hydro could be a realy good map for the competitive

[@brettkeane4865]

no... a randomly generated map is not good for competitive.

[@lovis8424]

It was a joke...

[@halfpace1462]

@@brettkeane4865 r/whoosh Yes, i went THAT low

[@Rangdan541]

Slinvidia. The way it's meant to be played.

[@TheSonicShoe]

so I think I'm not quite understanding how 5cp is scored in comp. is it basically just the team with the most cps when the timer runs out wins, or do you have to actually cap all 5 like in pubs? I know (roughly) how payload is scored in highlander, the stopwatch system is kind of intuitive, but I've never actually seen a game of 6s where one team didn't get the final cap. who wins if the match time runs out?

[@courtham]

why not just make the time on each point before a stalemate shorter and have 2 15 minute halves...

[@shenko_]

Slin should talk to FIFA to stop Mourinho and Pulis parking the bus.

[@snorry2028]

4 minutes reset special edition: If 4/5 is capped reset attack team to the most forward spawn. And defend team to their own spawn. This way the defending team is a little bit faster to the second point if not fast enough add 1 second delay or something for the other team. And for the attacking team more reason to try attack last. When 3/5 is capped by attacking team reset both to second forward spawn for a faster midfight.

[@woodentable4765]

Slin is the podcast dead?

[@iliketrain10]

the esports podcast? Idk, i58 happened, I believe b4nny and tagg were at the LAN, so maybe that's why it didn't happen.

[@woodentable4765]

hopefully'

[@exaflamer]

It is a bi-weekly podcast now instead of a weekly one. There will be a podcast this friday.

[@verysmuggy]

He does it every other week now. This Friday will have the Esports podcast.

[@iliketrain10]

Ah, thanks guys

[@pepsy910]

I'm sorry I cannot take this seriously with a picture of you eating a banana hanging behind you

[@tholepin]

increase the cap time on mid exponentially. This gets rid of rolls by wiping their team on mid, but it also gives the loser of the mid fight plenty of time to re-push mid. They could also make it so that after 5 minutes all points reset, and if you did send one scout back, it would take forever for him alone to cap mid, giving the other an advantage

[@ntlrz]

hey thole the problem with that is that after a team is wiped, it gives them enough time to get a solid second defense, which would stalemate mid and second

[@tholepin]

+The True Antlers did you not read my comment

[@Ordnance_T]

i hate how matches can take idk HOURS

[@theotv5522]

He literally just explained how those stalemates happened. People don't wanna push without a full team.

[@Teku69420]

In overwatch 2 cp is a big problem. *in tf2 we have 5cp lul.*

[@ProactiveYellow]

why make it time based? why not make the advantage spawn on point cap? or rush the next spawn wave at least? that way when you take a mid fight, the victors get up to 6 players faster and have incentive to push in the snowball effect. you take mid and get spawns, push off of the extreme player advantage and get spawns, then use Uber on last. however, if you hold off a push, you lose the advantage of having more players, and encourage the losing team to push, even lose a few players, cap mid and then get spawns to continue the fight.

[@R20RBB]

Update to 2019?

[@susurrus1]

Didn't sideshow talk about this topic?

[@rx-0unicorngundam832]

but mr slin in my area, there is no such thing as people playing 5cp and only choke bowl and erecticle disfunction

[@shm.2313]

I think we need to try and "fix" 5cp rather than completely scrap the gamemode

[@RoamingAdhocrat]

What if the prize for winning starts at a billion dollars, but ticks down to $500 over 30 minutes?

[@uncertaintytoworldpeace3650]

Sounds a bit biased towards house odds no?

[@Jaximous]

The solution is simple. Make whoever has the most points at the end of the timer win. This would encourage the defending team to be aggressive and most likely make the attacking team more defensive, but they would be worse at this since defensive specialist classes are harder to set up with. This would require shortening the time bonus from capping a point by a lot, but it still should stay to make defending points while having less points still viable. Of course, this could be a shitty idea, but it's what I thought of immediately.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

That's actually the source of the problem. These stalemates arise because you can just sit on the mid control point for 10 minutes and end up winning, since in competitive 5CP both teams don't lose when neither manages to cap the final control point. So there's no incentive to leave the middle control point, because if you manage to finish the round with it, you win. And it's a lot easier to set up defenses at a single point rather than try to push into an enemy team's defenses.

[@TheBigBadButler]

Give the team with only one point left 8 seconds of crits each 3 minutes of holding. That would make the attacking team time-aware, and the defending team clutch for 3 mins.

[@voughklry8362]

You know what would be worse then 5cp comp Dustbowl

[@Anklusos]

The Skin Kick metagame within TF2 invite teams is flawed #dicksoutforslin

[@gabes1733]

I think a cap timer of 2 or 3 minutes would really speed up gameplay.

[@tymekx014]

Drop sum australium in the midle of 2 controll point and the team who gets it gets minicrit

[@karmawuv]

the points on 5cp could start to uncap if to much time passes. maybe. :)

[@saya-rbt]

That wouldn't be a solution, because when you wait for an opportunity to push, let's say, last, you are holding on second. If second starts to uncap, the team will be here to cap it again, making this mechanic useless.

[@christopherlombardi6924]

I like that idea.

[@nastynewton6137]

+nei What if the mid points starts to uncap ;) funke has written a comment about it, check it out

[@karmawuv]

NastyNewton ツ Funke? Ill look for it :o

[@mr.a3324]

I disagree with this viewpoint. I enjoy heavy fighting, DM, crazy plays, etc. However, I feel that slow games have their own kind of tension; who's going to make the big play? Who's going to break it? Low-scoring football games are much more enjoyable to me because they feature much more workmanlike efforts and the big plays are magnified immensely. We just watched Crowns win the title at Insomnia and they did it by slowing the game down as much as possible. Those matches were some of the most tense ones we've seen in recent times. I get the appeal of high-scoring games (casters often use the term "flowing action"; what is it, sewage?) and those can be perfectly enjoyable. I just don't feel that stalemates are as big a problem.

[@superguy4047]

Not only that, but stalemates do help casters have time to put helpful and interesting input into a match, whether it be about previous events in the match, or certain strategies that both teams can implement.

[@abczfj1691]

problem is if they last too long, no one is complaining about stalemates in general, but they shouldn't last 10-15 minutes or more unless certain times where it's fine

[@vincent-ls9lz]

So are you choosing streaming, videos and being partnered with twitch over Intermediate ESEA?

[@oliverfarrant3718]

great vid

[@klowder9896]

I just want to see other gamemodes being played other than koth or 5cp in 6s. (I rarely see koth 6s, but whatever, I want to see something else than 5cp)

[@chips4real1]

cant happen cus the maps are shit

[@borealis3067]

r.i.p 4-4 jasmine vs froyo

[@zack9914]

Competetive Hightower payload race!!!!!

[@Whenthewhenthewhen]

makehydrogreatagain

[@estragonsenf537]

Stalemates at i58 were not bad. I don't know if you watched all of it, but 90% of all highlights happend in those stalemates. Stalemates are only rly boring when teams don't know how to sac properly. I tihnk the way to go is making "sac classes" eg soldier better.

[@estragonsenf537]

Also you could change that by adjusting the respawn timers for the team in controll or sth.

[@estragonsenf537]

Just make sac plays more viable.

[@syph5646]

You should get a lot of the pros to try out different solutions in game.

[@frodobaggins1423]

Fight for quad damage.

[@brandonrobinson4474]

I love stopwatch payload but what do I know I'm a highlander noob

[@003Jetfire]

How does 3cp compare?

[@chips4real1]

no one plays 3cp cus the map is shit

[@003Jetfire]

Surely there are other maps aside from Powerhouse though. I imagine 3cp would, in principle, allow for better comebacks as retaking second point has a much bigger affect on the flow of the game than in 5cp.

[@chips4real1]

Jetfire if u wipe all of the enemy team on mid you can probably cap all of their points by the time they spawn, of course you can coun ter this by making last need super long time to cap but then it is not fun anymore.

[@003Jetfire]

Yeah, definitely. Steamrolling would be a big concern on 3cp. I guess that's why they've made powerhouse the way it is. Great for pub matches, but not so great for fast-paced competitive.

[@werl_01]

Why I play PL and CP.

[@anonemoose102]

I've had games in pubs on cp_snakewater where I've had 3-4 stalemates in a row.

[@Timing93]

why not just remove the maptime of 30 minutes and say the players have to win 5 rounds to win the game.. it would force the teams to play more aggresive because otherwise they could play for 3 hours without any team winning the game.. what do you think about that idea? :)

[@oiytd5wugho]

Let's just bring ctf_turbine_pro back.

[@Jaximous]

YES

[@shadowninja958]

solution, use a gamemode that isn't 5cp.

[@feedtheorist9944]

i know your comment is old, but.... every other gamemode is shit in 6s, even koth

[@SamuelTrademarked]

@@feedtheorist9944 then, hot take: stop trying to do 6v6 in a game designed for 12v12

[@feedtheorist9944]

@@SamuelTrademarked 5cp 6s is great so no need to stop! and you cannot possibly be doing this appeal to "original design intent" thing in fucking tf2 of all games lmfao. but also wtf are u doing on a 6 year old comment man i havent even played tf2 in many years.

[@MountRushCollymore]

i58 was great to watch though.

[@CANADAKRUSH1]

Who else is just looking at the banana picture in the background lol

[@gamer_x403]

Watch Crowns and Full Tilt match>mid-fight for 3 minutes>first win only in 10 minutes>2-1 in 30 minutes>average 1 win/10 minutes>okay.

[@greenwaterrr]

get uncle dane to cast when the game gets boring

[@greenwaterrr]

5cp, its a shit show in both comp and comp. Pushing should have more of a reward, not a 10 minute clock add(whatver). Capping a point should give a buff and every time a point gets captured a second time. Payload and KOTH should be promoted more and a team really needs to work on a great koth map.

[@Jebly_5555]

....Remove the match timer. There you go.

[@shastabolicious]

"5cp is stalematey." There I just saved everyone 15 minutes.

[@assgoblin3981]

shastabolicious there was a lotta interesting stuff here dud

[@gabriell.1437]

great video m8

[@Pyrimo]

26 different people (including myself) commenting....17 views.....what?

[@martijnbakker1277]

It'd like to know peoples thoughts on my ideas. Instead of resulting in a stalemate when the timer runs out, the team with most controlpoints wins. By itself this solution only flips the problem: The defending team is now obligated to attack instead of trying to force a stalemate, but the team that just capped the midpoint would take on this role of purely defensive play instead. The fact that the midpoint is harder to protect than the fourth point has such minor impact, my suggestion by itself would only help, but not resolve the problem. My second suggestion would therefor be to increase the respawn times for the currently winning team further. This way killing someone while pushing is worth more than losing a teammates life, because, say, BLU team decides to push and all twelve players die, they can just respawn quicker than RED team, are already on the point when they arive, and also have an uber advantage. I'm hoping this would help make matches more dynamic, but my fear is that once one team caps mid, they're not just playing defensively, but stop extending altogether. Capping the fourth point almost gaurantees victory, but they're to afraid to die to take the risk. Anyways, I feel so smart and resourcefull with my solutions, I just know there has to be a flaw, so I'd love to hear feedback.