Muscle Dysmorphia and Male Beauty Standards: What we can learn from The Liver King's Lies

[@Juicelee777ssj]

"It's kind of foolish to hurt yourself to fill out a suit when you can just tailor it to fit you better." That is an amazing quote.

[@KingPiccolOwned]

The worst thing about losing 100lbs+ weight is that now your birthday suit doesn't fit right, and you've got to ask yourself the question of whether you want to go through getting it tailored to fit again. 😅💀

[@musica1120]

Fellow trans queer man here. Thank you for making these videos centered around masculinity. It often feels (to me) like we shouldn’t put much focus on the fact that we are also men in queer spaces and non queer spaces don’t really understand us either. This space you’ve created really makes me feel welcomed and embraced in every aspect of my identity and I appreciate that so so much ❤

[@kaiyote7924]

same... i really hate that the 80s legit made us think that some of these bodies both for both binary extremes that are marketed to us as "standard" or "normal" when there shouldn't be a "standard" because humans are too varied to impose a standard.

[@KhadijaMbowe]

Thank you for talking about this, your channel is a light

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Thanks so much, Khadija! 💙💙💙

[@superpheemy]

The summer before I started high school, I wanted to play (american) football. Our coaches brought us into the gym. Now, I remind you this was the summer of 1983. I was still three months away from turning 14 years old. I'd already been wrestling for two years, so *that* roller coaster of training and "weight management" was established. This was my first experience with weight training. There was a new program called "Bigger, Faster, Stronger". Kind of in it's infancy at that time. Point was that a whole generation of adolescent boys were being taught by their authority figures to push their bodies to become as big and strong as possible in the shortest period of time. I've seen this evolve. By the time my younger half-brothers who were 9 and 12 years younger than me started football. Kids in their first year of high school were already bigger than me as a grown man. I remember thinking that when I was their age, I would have been, frankly, too small to play freshman football. That adolescence for me. Striving to constantly be bigger, stronger that definitely shaped my self perceptions for the rest of my life. I'm objectively strong, even now that I'm 53 years old. I do not now, nor have I ever, internalized that fact. And that stems from being taught, when I was going through puberty, that I *had to get stronger* it didn't matter if I could lift 400 pounds. Not strong enough. When I went back to the gym last year to lose weight and heal my cardio, I made a point of telling my trainer that I did not want to get big. I didn't want power. I just wanted to get healthy. It was like I was speaking Martian to her. Just didn't register with my trainer that anyone presenting masculine would want to use 24 hour Fitness to be anything other than a big powerful dude.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

The horror stories I hear from so many of my clients about exactly this kind of thing. I'm so sorry that was your introduction to exercise, and that you internalized that pressure. Good on you for doing right by yourself and changing your focus. It takes a lot to be an advocate for yourself like that. 💙

[@allym2787]

Woman dealing with a husband who has several unhealthy standards. I am soooooo making him watch this video. Thank you for making this.

[@empatheticrambo4890]

I'm a cis man, and I'm so grateful to finally hear someone discuss men dealing with body dysmorphia. I grew up fat, and eventually developed some pretty serious body dysmorphia (one day I'd think I was muscular, another I'd see myself as skinny, another day I'd see myself as fat) to the point that I lost a bunch of weight. I later realized it was something similar to an eating disorder, but it was years until I heard a man talk about body dysmorphia in a way that matched my own experience (specifically, Matt Mercer's "Between the Sheets" interview). It's so helpful to hear people use the phrase Body Dysmorphia in the case of men. I do know the discussion these days tends to be around bodybuilders who "don't feel muscular enough," but I think that same effect is probably even more common in young boys and teens and young adult men. I know youtube ads and videos about fitness were a major trigger for that self insecurity, developing into dysmorphia. I still think the phrase "body dysmorphia" is too rarely discussed or understood, and I felt very validated listening to this video. Sorry, I know this is that classic rambling personal comment. Thanks for talking about it

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Please don’t apologize for this comment, I really appreciate you sharing it. I hope you’re in a happier, healthier place now, and loving your body. 💙

[@TinkeringBard]

Hey, thanks. For being here, I found your channel today. And thanks. I'm a straight cis male and today when I got up I just felt so very alone and disgusted with my own body, I felt alone and I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone about it, and watching your videos on masculinity has made me feel so much less alone. You are really the kind of man I look up to.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Thank *you* for being here. I know feeling good about yourself and your body isn't a simple task, but it means the world to know my channel has been helpful to you in doing that. And fwiw, I learned what I know from guys like you, those who are willing to open up and talk about that loneliness.

[@brenorocha6687]

I used to avoid gyms because I didn't want to get big visible muscles. Until I worked with a guy who was very into steroids and he explained to me how many of the buff guys we see are on steroids (basically all of them) and what to realistically expect from exercises. This co-worker, btw, has a lot of self-esteem issues. I was also scared of the big guys in the gym, thinking they would all be the "agressive dominant kind with this male competition driven mind". But they were mostly nice people. Thank you for all the topics you covered in this video.

[@CorwinFound]

One of the interesting aspects of being an out trans guy are the conversations I've had with cisgender men on "the juice." I've had some shockingly frank conversations with guys about our respective experiences with testosterone. Basically they have all said some version of, "I wanted a body that I couldn't get otherwise... same as you." I'll admit that my initial reaction internally was, "No, I'm different. I *need* testosterone because I'm trans. You are just vain." But really, is it different? Does not everyone deserve the opportunity to choose how their body looks in whatever ways make them happy? (It's worth noting that the guys I've talked to were all in their 30's and 40's. Hyper knowledgeable about what they were doing, the risks, realistic rewards, etc. It's likely a lot different than typical for men in their early 20's or younger.) I don't have an issue with juicing if it's done as safely as possible, ethically, and in a truly informed manner. That being said, what guys like the Liver King and many many others do is horrible. It's predatory and unethical in every way. And it's driving especially young men to do dangerous things.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

This is a good point. I there where it gets fuzzy is whether it's coming from an underlying insecurity thanks to unrealistic standards, but there's no real way for a outsider to make a call on that one. Stepping aside from the predatory swindlers (which is obviously just bad), I guess it's recognizing the line between "Your body is yours, customize it in a way that makes you happy" and "Are you okay?" I like to tell my clients to do things for their bodies because they love them, not because they hate them.

[@smoothbrain8519]

wow I’m writing that advice down, “do things for their body because they love them, not because they hate them” so simple and so effective to filter out the toxic sludge noise, thanks for that

[@TJPenitencia]

Oh hell, the whole concept of your trans-masculine gender dysphoria overlapping with the more general masculine gender dysphoria is mindblowing. And THANK YOU for emphasizing that natural body type is overwhelmingly determinative when it comes to how "fitness" is externally exhibited (e.g., aesthetic musculature). I have trained and worked out in university-based rec centers for over three decades. I've seen a lot of fitness and workout fads come and go, and I have NEVER seen more toxic, dysfunctional, borderline bizarre behavior and expectations from guys in the gym than I have in the past five years. I TOTALLY agree with you that all this marketing and SM content of jacked dudes is for US, not women. Working out next to all these fratties at the gym has convinced me that they care WAY more what their bros think about their bodies than women. They want their friends to admire their physiques first. And...I'll be lying if I said that I didn't get some sick pleasure out of being older than their dads and still being able to train harder than most of them. It's not healthy or virtuous. I'm drowning in the testosterone-poisoned pond, too. Laughed out loud at the "Does that...does that freak you out?" And, "How the bottom line is...topped?" Okay, that was good. You nailed this one, Finn. THANK YOU for the intelligence, empathy, and humor. Some of the best stuff on YT.

[@Wayza666]

very good comment it gives another perpective on the problem

[@themurderofcoke]

If you haven't seen it,. I think either it was We're in Hell Ft. F.D Signifier who did a video on pickup artistry, essentially came to the same conclusion - they want to be oickup artists, not to have frequent sex, but to brag about it to friends. It's not about the act, it's about bragging to your friends.

[@vaporwave4069]

i know im absolutely not the intended audience for this, but as a trans woman this has given me some really valuble insight, and also a lot to think about in terms of my own thoughts and feelings on gender 😅

[@aJaklin]

Listened to this while at the gym. Had my best workout in ages, cus suddenly i was lifting for myself, not to intimidate others

[@mylittledashie7419]

I don't have a lot to add, but I just wanted to say I really appreciate that there's someone talking about these kinds of issues *without* being an arsehole about it. When I was younger I would quite confidently describe myself as an "MRA", and while I still think the literal interpretation of the words apply to me, the connotation... yeesh. Point is, ever since realising that most MRA's are more concerned with making women "pay" than actually improving the lives of men, I've been really craving someone like yourself, who can talk about our issues *without* spiteful misogyny. And the fact you have a unique perspective as a trans man just makes your content all the better for a cis guy like myself. Thanks for putting your time into these videos, they're really thought provoking, they help make me feel a lot less alone in the quest for kind male activism, and I'm sure I'm not the only guy who's horizons you're helping to broaden. Dog bless.

[@NonaMoreau]

This is such a wholesome comment! Also what’s MRA?

[@mylittledashie7419]

@@NonaMoreau It stands for Men's Rights Activist. As I say, the words alone are pretty fine, but unfortunately many of the people who use this term are more accurately described as anti-Feminists who are looking to simply tear women down under the guise of building men up.

[@lkriticos7619]

Came here from FD Signifier you might like his stuff as well.

[@sharonoddlyenough]

Dog bless

[@AllTheArtsy]

@user-vx5qc9nm1q@@mylittledashie7419 not even "anti-feminist" just anti-women in general. Instead of actually dissecting the root cause of their problems and grievances with society-- more often than not patriarchy and capitalism-- they mistakenly redirect their anger towards women who are also victims of those structures.

[@seanford2478]

Finally someone is having this conversation because you go on the internet and it’s full of fitness people with clear eating and body disorders and it gotten so bad that even hardcore gymers have started to notice

[@beefy74]

coming from FD! i appreciate this video, it really put into words what i’ve been thinking about male beauty standards. i’m trans masc, but i also have a bunch of brothers. it’s been interesting to see the differences between how societal standards affected us.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

As a woman I’ve never found this hyper-muscular body type attractive. I just assumed this was because I’m queer. When I start thinking about it however, I realize I’ve never actually encountered another woman who finds this body type attractive. Still that’s antidotal and may just reflect the company I keep. So… I did some light research an googled “hottest men of all time” and over the last 100 years this doesn’t appear to be the female preference. The preference seems to be for intense eyes, chiseled face, boyish smile, stylish tousled hair, and if they have muscle its the more slender Greek statue variety. Interestingly, many of the early heartthrob seem to be gay/queer. James Dean, Marlon Brando, Cary Grant, Rock Hudson. I will refrain form speculating why that might be…

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

To be fair, the "slender" muscle a lot of women like (think like Captain America) is also steroid induced as well. Liver king is obviously not most women's cup of tea, but the standards our society idealizes is still mostly unachievable.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

@@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252 This is sadly true, as well. And if not steroids, Hollywood-budget personal trainers and chefs monitoring your every action and calorie, which ain't healthy either.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

@@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252 That’s a good point. Generally we should avoid tying are body image to celebrities. Whether it’s Chris Evans or Timothée Chalamet both are equally unachievable. The point I was making though is that Arnold Schwarzenegger and Dave Bautista looks seem to be playing more into male desirably than female desirability.

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

@@mikaylaeager7942 oh I definitely agree there, though I will also say I dont think you get into competitive body building to impress anyone, you dont do it for anything other than you like lifting and gaining muscle.

[@lynn858]

Thanks for encouraging us to be a stronger us, and not someone else.

[@alexreid1173]

As a fellow trans guy, I got top surgery in september and I’ve been on HRT for a few years now. It’s been a weird experience for me to feel little to no gender dysphoria… because it really highlighted my other insecurities to myself. I don’t really wanna look like superman but I would like to have abs, especially now that I’ve had top surgery. I’m really afraid of going down an unhealthy path with that

[@gofost5256]

What's so unhealthy in wanting to have abs? Or wanting to workout in general? Are you not aware that in order to get Abs you have to workout and have a good routine, which can give you health benefits? And for christ sakes, how much of insecurities can one person have. I seriously don't understand you people.

[@alexreid1173]

@@gofost5256 I never said it was??? But I’m afraid of falling into the trap that so many people do of it never being enough. Having abs is fine, but taking steroids to get even bigger is a problem. Lots of people use exercise and supplements in an unhealthy way. Did you even watch the video?? As for your question, lots of people are insecure about lots of things. I just didn’t notice them much when my dysphoria was bad

[@gofost5256]

@@alexreid1173 it's not that you didn't notice your insecurities, it's that you didn't have any insecurities at the time of dysphoria. But later developed insecurities. You need to fix those. They hold you back.

[@VioletSadi]

The best fitness I've ever done was a seniors group: I was 19 but had a few injuries and it was so good to not feel like I was letting the side down when I was slow to do certain things because so was everyone else on other exercises

[@FinntasticMrFox]

I really love classes popular with seniors, both teaching and joining in. They tend to be focused on balance, joint health, and functional strength, and we all need that regardless of age.

[@TerriMRoberts]

Academic research I did a few years ago on experiences of fitness instructors, clients not knowing how to suss natural-vs-steroids-vs-photoshop actually came as frequent issue with re-educating clients on the fitness myths they learn from marketing, influencers, etc. It's something we need to do a lot more work on in trainer training!

[@xavierharrison3116]

Trans guy here who will be getting onto HRT soon - this is something that I really needed to hear. I've always struggled with my weight and with a nice sprinkling of chronic pain on top, working out and fitness haven't really been easy in the past. That isn't even to mention that while yeah, I do want to be healthier, trying to look more masculine has also been my primary motivator. It's a nice cocktail of the gender dysphoria and male based body dysmorphia that you described. Seeing these types of unrealistic body standards constantly on my screen has just made that internal self loathing stronger over the years, towards both my body and the pain that makes it so difficult to 'improve' it. I'm trying to give myself a healthier goal of just losing a bit of weight and maybe being strong enough to pick up my partner one day, but it's difficult to keep my mind off of those unrealistic standards. Stuff like this is, truly, really helpful. Thank you for being a voice for men's issues of all types, be we trans or cis.

[@theponderingplumb9790]

This video was super helpful; I’m trying to lose weight and become healthier but am getting bombarded on social media with a lot of hyper-masculinity “sigma” content and it makes it really difficult to separate the motivation to be healthier from the unhealthy motivation to be a gigachad.

[@musa4937]

People take this sigma thing too seriously

[@nightzzzzzzzzzzz3531]

i don't know if this could be helpful but the channel on youtube "Hybrid Calisthenics" are more healthy and very supportive.

[@KennyFrierson]

This is reminding me when I was in school and some of the other boys would try to bully me because I was built like a linebacker in my teens. I knew it was because of insecurities but never thought more about it.

[@maxwellsmith9988]

It always pisses me off when masculine body dysphoria and standards are pitted against feminine body dysmorphia and standards and blamed on feminism. it's all the same fucking problem

[@8lec_R]

This video made me realize that I too have unfortunately internalized these harmful standards. I guess time for some self reflection and unlearning. It's nowhere near as bad as some of the other people have it, but it's important to address it before my insecurity gets a life of it's own

[@foxcks]

Dude, perfect vid. I've struggled crazy with body dysmorphia as a guy, a part what I imagine is a lifelong journey in weeding out oppressive feelings stemming from patriarchy. In any case, your unique perspective through intersecting all these different social and physical stratas, while having a level of critical integrity is extremely helpful. Ka pai!

[@hektorsehmsdorf1336]

Oh mighty algorithm may you do your thing

[@Owesomasaurus]

Every single Mens Health magazine cover is a case study in this.

[@ChaseNoseworthy]

Here because of FD Signifier’s shoutout. Immediate sub from me, love the content brother!

[@kjones5654]

Loved this video, Finn! It’s always refreshing to see your perspective on masculinity, not tying it to the need to be better or stronger than anyone else. If anyone is interested in the history of the “ideal” male body image, James Somerton made an excellent video a few weeks ago called “The Gay Body Image Crisis” that delves deeper into it and how gay men’s ideal body image has transferred to straight men over the last several decades, and how that unachievable muscular ideal harms everyone involved.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

It is an excellent video.

[@luanagullotta6218]

I keep coming back to this video (and also an academic paper about college students being forced to wear Barry Manolow t-shirts and then finding out no-one actually noticed what they were wearing) because I think it's really great as I've developed this low self-confidence about my appearance in the last year or so. And I think what has triggered it, in a strange way, is making lots of friends recently who are women and non-binary people, people who have great fashion sense and have looked at the gender binary and correctly surmised that it's bollocks. Which gave me lots of gender envy and led me to question my gender for a while, but eventually I've concluded that I am just a cis man. And I know that's not a bad thing, but my brain then said, "Well, if I can't be as fashionable or interesting as these women or non-binary people, I should instead be as masculine as possible to make up for that!". And I think that has led to some of my issues, especially because I'm on the slimmer side. So at least I'm self-aware! And this video has been really helpful with reframing my thoughts about myself, especially because I do like going to the gym and doing exercise and don't want to ruin that for myself.

[@salyx]

Self awareness is great! Also make sure that you’re not deciding that gender identity and gender presentation are the same thing, because you can totally be a fashionable unique cis man!

[@pennyforyourthots]

Just from talking with some of my friends, I definitely feel that woman's conception of masculinity is completely different to men's even if it is similar in certain ways. Like, plenty of my friends are into muscular men, but when they describe these bodies it's a much more realistic kind of lanky muscle or even a relatively fit dad bod. It's certainly more attainable than what many consider to be a muscular man. While the "female gaze" definitely still perpetuates some harmful aspects of masculinity, in my experience on the whole it's generally a much more realistic and attainable perception of masculinity that tends to focus a lot more on healthy emotional expression and compassion. I've seen men get mercilessly mocked for having love handles, only to have women be like "man I'm into that shit, makes me feel like I'm hugging a teddy bear". While the female gaze definitely still puts people into boxes, which is bad, the box has much more rounded and fuzzy edges that is generally accepting of MORE men.

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

Can you show examples online of women desiring "realistic" body types because to be honest I mostly see women liking dudes who are tall and ripped, not ones liking love handles (unless it's their husbands and that's more about them loving the guy then loving the handles).

[@oryx_85]

@@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252 ripped? See when you say ripped I think visible muscles and honestly I find muscle 💪 to be unattractive. Like yeah enough to be a normal functioning human being but extra is not attractive to me at all. Most women I know focus on attractive faces, style, hair and a vague sense of healthy functioning fitness. What kind of women are you focused on and what spaces do you see normal everyday women expressing desire for mens muscles? I have never really seen that but I stay in mostly bookish and nerdy spaces so maybe I just have a skewed experience?

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

@@oryx_85 most when I see women saying "functional muscle" they don't mean "I love love handles" they mean they want the skinnier or slightly built silhouette with some abs without the over the top veins. Much more achievable for many guys but definitely not "just about the face." In fact, ironically enough if I would give credit to women it's not the body types, but in the variety of facial features they enjoy (despite definitely preferring more chiseled features on average).

[@oryx_85]

@@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252 I suppose you could be correct but I have never even scrutinized the male form enough to notice the difference between a little bit overweight or normal weight. I have never dated a skinny guy so not sure if that is attractive naked or not. I have always dated or married men within a similar body composition as my own. I fluctuate between the average weight for my height and a few times in my life a little over. I would not be drawn to a man too much thinner or heavier than the average for their hight and my ex husband was the same hight as me. I am more attracted to women these days but for men I have never been very picky about the shape of their body and I have never heard other women I am around seem concerned about it either outside of extremes of weight away from average. I think you might be over estimating how concerned women are about a few body details. Maybe you are in social circles more focused on fitness? Perhaps find different women to be around or attracted to? I am sure there is a nice average looks average weight woman who will be happy to date an equally average man with or without love handles that might be part of a natural body shape even at a normal weight. *maybe I seeing things differently but I thought most people date laterally. Similar class, looks, body weight and educational background. I also only date within 3 years up or down my own age. I think statistically that is where your best bet on finding a good match is. If you are aiming younger and more attractive perhaps you will have to be outside the norm in some other ways but sticking to someone about parallel to you and your background is the best bet.

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

@@oryx_85 I am currently in a relationship, this was about 5-10 years ago and from what I've seen due to a brief break in the relationship nothings changed (not why I went back of course, it was more important and personal for both of us). what women date in a serious relationship and what womens ideal man is physically are often two different things. Women like other ppl are willing to compromise on stuff for a stable relationship, which is fine, but they ARE compromising. Most women get into monogamous relationships with averages because most men hover around there and when you are ready to settle down they are usually the ones most readily available. Not to say those relationships aren't real but yeah. Also I was not in fitness communities at the time - this was college, with a wide variety of women. Universally they preferred taller and it's rare a man would be "too tall" and universally they preferred skinny or muscular. Men could get laid outside of that but would get more attention the closer to the ideal they were. The "natural shape" is almost never thirsted over in mainstream media aimed at women. Usually the guy is a bit taller than her and physically fit with abs. Almost universally the guy is skinny. There are so few sex symbols among women that are fat, and when they are fat their weight is never cited as a reason. They usually have a good voice, or charisma. Even when women post these unconventional types, they will literally say, "men have no excuses because you can be UGLY and still get girls." And it gets likes! In progressive spaces! Just them admitting yeah this body type is inherently undesirable, sure you can make up for it but still it's not desirable. This sends a clear message to guys - if you are fat or short or not traditionally masculine, these are not things that will be desired. You must do something else to make up for not being those things. It is possible, but it's sad that I can't see like, anything that validates women like my body type. Not that they "don't care either way" but genuinely like it. I am in a relationship now with someone who finds me personally desireable and that's great, but it'd be nice to see more women express desire for these body types. Plus size women go through the ringer in our world but they are least have a porn category. It can be demeaning in some videos and some may feel uncomfortable with it, but it at least shows that men, in their free time, with access to anything in the world, will choose a plus size women as desirable in a situation that is purely based on physical attraction. What do unconventional or even average men have for that? Like even you here in your comment can only say "I'm not picky about body types." Again I'm not coming at you, just saying that as a guy, this is the only thing you hear that isn't praise of the traditionally masculine ideal. It's either you are close to that ideal, or the woman you're with doesn't care. There is nothing for dudes out there to feel comfortable in their own skin, only ways to elevate beyond it.

[@mitigatortish]

I've just found your channel and I can't believe it took me this long! Your style is incredible, and sooooo important. You aren't judgmental, and you acknowledge that hard is just hard, regardless of who is experiencing it. Men of every background need a place to feel heard on body image issues and be able to express the hardships they experience in a way that doesn't tear others down in order for them to make their point. If they are constantly told their struggles aren't real or simply not as bad as those faced by more marginalized communities, they will turn to sources such as Andrew Tate to gain sympathy and the emotional validation they are craving. If we have more happy people who haven't gotten there on the backs of others, who knows? Maybe we'll have more people see that's not the only way to achieve happiness and we can start getting some stuff accomplished to fix this poor planet of ours!

[@OwnD1]

FD Signifier really recommended this banger of a video. Thanks for sharing your perspective

[@mcsmith732]

I'm very pleased to find someone talking about cultural patriarchy and the cruelty it inflicts on boys and men. I'm currently reading bell hooks' "The Will To Change..." and getting an education on the "imperialist, white supremacist, capitalist patriarchy". It's always a good thing to find the words to validate one's experiences. I think that KZbin's "algorithm" srnt me here because I've subscribed to "F D Signifier". Anyway, I've subscribed and am looking forward to more of your talks. BTW, I am a 70 year old cis-het woman, with some informal self-education and activism in Feminism.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

The Will To Change is a favourite of mine. Looking at the way everything intersects can be intimidating, but I agree, the validation is helpful in seeing how these things operate. I'm also glad we have spaces to connect with other people doing the deconstructions, thank you for being here!

[@gofost5256]

What's so cruel in encouraging boys to workout? Or what patriarchy are you even talking about? . The patriarchy is gone grandma. I get that it existed 70 years ago but at this point it's gone. Infact it's men that are usually ignored by society. Society don't care about men's mental health, they don't care about the fact that the law and court system is biased and more harsh against men. You seriously can't be thinking the patriarchy exists just because people aren't allowing you to get abortions and kill babies.

[@AutisticNik]

Loved this video Finn, you always approach difficult topics surrounding masculinity with a refreshing amount of curiosity and empathy. Thank you for acknowledging that there’s not enough research on nonbinary people. I’m not nearly as articulate as you, but I want to share some of my thoughts on the matter. For me personally, I feel like my androgynous identity protects me from both the pressure to be really skinny or “slim thick,” since I’m not comfortable being curvy, and from the pressure to have huge muscles, since I don’t want to look ultra masculine either. In terms of media influence, marketing tactics that try to challenge the masculinity or femininity of their audience don’t really work on me because being told that I’m “not man enough” or “not a desirable woman” unless I buy this thing just doesn’t feel personal enough to evoke any strong reaction. At the same time, I have noticed a tendency online among people of various genderqueer identities to strive for a very skinny, lanky-looking physique, regardless of AGAB. It makes sense in a way, since having little fat or muscle can be a way to neutralize your secondary sex characteristics. I could see how hormone-regulated body fat distribution could feel like a sign declaring one’s hormonal makeup to the world, and how either one could be uncomfortable for someone who identifies strongly with androgyny. Of course, this isn’t the case for all nonbinary people; we’re a hugely diverse group, and that makes us hard to study. Still, I’d like to see more research about how all the current media pressures are affecting people who don’t see themselves as part of the gender binary.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

I'm going to be on the lookout for more info, because I think it would be very helpful to everyone if we had a better understanding of how non-binary people internalize and express beauty standards--going back to the fact that acknowledging that the gender binary is constructed is key to dismantling the harmful aspects of it. Thank you for sharing this. 💙

[@marklouis1890]

I'm a cisgender male and identify as queer 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈. Love your content

[@tonatiuhornelas1472]

Love this discourse! We need to have these discussions about masculinity and what it means to be a man. Unfortunately I don’t think these discussions are happening in the so called “manosphere” My brother is a trans dude so I love to see this kind of discourse also including trans men/gay men. We’re not all hard men! And we can’t be “hard” all the time. We should have the right to be soft whenever we choose! We are men not machine! Keep up the good work!

[@mattias2576]

Your channel is so precious, ihave been wat hikg several trans women, but you are the first trans guy i ever listened to

[@Frequincy100]

I am a 31 year old physically disabled (restricted to a wheelchair) man and have very little control over my body (what it looks like and moving it). Exercise increases the destruction caused by my muscle wasting disease. All this has given me mild body dysmorphia. It's been very difficult to accept my body and my inability to change it. Society's standards of attractiveness sure hasn't helped. I have slowly come to understood my attractiveness is not determined by what my body looks like.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Thank you for commenting and sharing this. You are absolutely right that attractiveness is not about fitting a specific physical standard, and it’s bs that so many men face an uphill battle in reaching and internalizing that message.

[@torstenoakes]

FD Signifier sent me! Excellent video, from a queer powerlifter I've experienced a lot of these issues, great to hear someone put words to them.

[@BarbarianGod]

good video! we really need to do more work to dismantle male beauty standards instead of playing into these patriarchal portrayals of masculinity

[@VinceWhitacre]

I would 100% hire you as my trainer. I think the commute would do me in though 🤣

[@FinntasticMrFox]

I mean, I do digital sessions, but I definitely get that those don't work for everyone.

[@VinceWhitacre]

Hmmmm... I mean, I don't much like being in public... this might be worth a consideration.

[@kiwipomegranate]

I was about to shoutout MovementByDavid for teaching the difference between "visible" vs "usable" muscles but he's already listed in the description!

[@staticsignal3985]

This is the first video of yours I’ve seen and it led me to subscribe. You’re quite popular on r/MensLib - for all the right reasons.

[@arinaira1417]

Oh wow. It will be interesting to know more about this topic from your perspective.

[@sixstar2067]

I'm so grateful we have things like KZbin available that allow everyone to tell their story and talk about their beliefs and experiences. Thank you so much for sharing your unique perspective on this issue. It was incredibly thought-provoking for me personally. Subscribed :)

[@mordakie3805]

To bad the KZbin algorithm pushes hate and divisiveness

[@Dantalliumsolarium]

I subbed before I knew you were trans and now I’m just !!!! Holy shit, I was hoping your inspire me to work out the healthy way and now I Know it’s the trans healthy way? Fuck- 💃💃💃 I’m delighted

[@cat_dad2200]

Thank you for making these videos, they're great! Fellow queer t-guy here and very grateful.

[@smoothbrain8519]

So grateful to have clicked into your channel and getting to see this banger of a video. Grateful you’ve been featured on so many of the creators in left-tube I watch so much. It was Jessie’s recent video on “How we talk about trans men” that got me to finally come over here because it was a good reminder to lean into the transmasc spaces and community to feel visible, affirmed, and even celebrated. This video is so poignant as a person who is early in their transition with hormones. As you mentioned, it’s so easy to lose sight of the efforts to transition to discover more of who we’ve always been and the pressure to conform to unrealistic and unhealthy standards of masculinity. I feel myself edging into that toxic place often, and its videos from creators like you who put healthier voices in my head and remind me that my transition is meant to Nurture myself, not Destroy. Thank you, Swolesome 🙏🏼

[@foregroundeclipse8725]

I'm a transgender man ftm who's a gay man and I relate to what you're saying. I'm finding that my gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia/muscel dysmorphia overlap and go hand in hand. Most of it is gender dysphoria of being in the wrong body and going through the wrong puberty. But I'm also insecure of being lacking in muscle , I'm insecure of lacking a more squared out face(more defined masculine jaw-line) , I'm insecure of looking too feminine and chubby and round. I want to be a handsome man. It's a struggle . I feel too small and weak. That makes me very uncomfortable and distressed.

[@adamrt8]

This video slaps! I love the empathy and intersectionality with which this serious and delicate topic is handled. Look forward to seeing more

[@APfw-tri]

Oh hell yeah, I'm here for this. I work out and it's definitely partially for looks, but there's living healthy and then there's just going nuts online for a living :P

[@keithwagg4112]

Thank you so much 😊. This was really helpful for me as queer with a male body. When I was seeking that perfect male body with a super strict diet and gym routine, I couldn’t even go on dinner dates and I was never happy. I never really thought about what the pursuit was for, it wasn’t for my own happiness or health. I think it was for this ‘male gaze’ and patriarchal ideals of that every man must be a tough imperious bully-gross! I feel a lot better now I am aware of that. Thanks again ❤

[@ArcySparky]

Thank you for this well constructed explanation of male gaze and body image. This issue is so important for young men to hear.

[@foregroundeclipse8725]

I have self image issues and body issues that go along with my gender dysphoria. I thought I was the only one with this problem. I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with this. Love you're videos dude. 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈

[@victorsanchez-castro8944]

Love the muscle bob buff pants poster in the background

[@ThisOnesOptimistik]

Found you thru FD Signifier. Thank you so much for your patience, clarity, & commitment.

[@euanbaker130]

I'm also a queer, trans man. Holy WOW, this couldn't be better timed. Thank you for making this!!

[@luccaladinig2783]

Great video, as always! Just thougt I'd mention that for the gay experience specifically, James Somerton's "The gay body image crisis" is a good complementary watch.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Love that one! It is an excellent watch, if challenging and sad at points.

[@sarahr8311]

I'd be really interested to hear more about your experience with the male gaze and how that changed as you transitioned, if you're willing to share.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

I will definitely be talking about this further in the future.

[@grnmjolnir]

Yep, I am lucky enough to afford a powerbar and some weights and a bench and it is so nice to work out at home for me. Easier to check the bidy standards and ego at the door when not looking at others seeming to look or do better than me (at least in my mind)

[@robertofreitas9305]

I just wanna say I've been dying for some content like this!!!! A queer trans man talking about masculinuty!!!! Its perfect. God i love you. Thank you so So much for this.

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

9:50 from what i heard most body builders don’t even look like how we imagine them most the time, they just dehydrate themselves and try to lose as much fat as possible for competitions. There are def loads of body builders out there in their off season living very healthy lives. Hell body builder blogs is where I got ideas for healthy snacks as a teen when I tried being vegetarian for the first time. It’s literally a beauty pageant honestly

[@ModusOperandi]

I feel this attitude around fitness so much, and it also has the effect of making me feel like a fraud in the gym. Despite being as consistent as I possibly could be (only injury and travel keep me out of the gym) and enjoying every time I go, I still struggle to even consider myself athletic. My numbers aren't where they should be and I don't look like a lifter so how could I be one? I'm not a member of a real gym either so I just see what gets shown to me online. It leads to me being completely intimidated by anyone else who's interested in fitness since I assume they automatically think I'm a weak loser. And being a bi guy it feels like it shuts off a whole part of attraction--how could I ever be attractive to another guy if my hips are too wide and I can't see my abs? I'm only now starting to untangle all of this, and these perspectives are helping chip away at it, slowly. So thanks for talking about it. "They don't look like that because they do their sport, they do their sport because they look like that" is something I will try to remind myself of often.

[@bugbrainzz]

I'm transmasc, skinny and chronically ill/disabled. Thank you for bringing up that people like me are getting thrown under the bus by this very restrictive male beauty standard.

[@lkriticos7619]

Came from FD Signifier, thank you that was a really good video.

[@lezlieanne21]

FD sent me here and I'm glad he did. Thank you. I learned something new today. Keep up the good work.

[@foregroundeclipse8725]

Hopefully I can transition soon . I'm already 21 year old guy , yet I came out officially in high-school. It cost alot of money to transition but I hope that soon I'll be able to . I'm busting my ass off to get more money at my job. My job dosen't pay much in comparison to others jobs, but it's a start. I've been saving up my money for awhile, it's not enough to start my transition yet unfortunately , but it's progress. I currently have 1,000 dollars from saving up. I need more than that I know I'm just freaking out about never being able to get there.

[@KhadijaMbowe]

💕💕💕

[@BeastNationXIV]

My body image issues actually got much worse after I came out, and tried to find a partner, because of the desirability politics of other guys on the apps. (Yes, I'm moderately toxic, so are Dave Rubin and Milo Yiannopoulos, but they're married. A lot of people are toxic, they're just better at wearing the mask). I'm still dealing with that to this day, as it resurged after dealing with other guys who have a meangirls mentality for anyone who isn't a jock or twink. Spoiler alert: I don't look like Davey Wavey, I'm built more like Cedric the entertainer. Plus, I'm not white or middle class. I'm not sure if I should accept myself and then change, or change everything about myself to be "worthy" of being in this community while learning to accept myself. Either way, i know i can't look like me currently and find someone i like. Partially because they're jocks or twinks. 🤣 The deafening silence of the community towards guys like me and social othering, doesn't help me "love myself" much. I know my comment will be ignored or passed over, but maybe it made a lick of sense to somebody?

[@FinntasticMrFox]

Just to make sure I'm following, you mean the gay community? Because there is absolutely a serious problem with body image expectations and racism in mlm dating, it's awful.

[@queens.dee.223]

I'm coming here from FD as well. I found the "look to the queer community for data" point really neat and have been thinking about this myself. We have a ton of insight, anecdotal and statistical, that could benefit everyone! Bonus points for 🖖🏻 Spock!

[@emperortgp2424]

Like how the extreme male beauty standards are marketed to fuel the insecurities of the average man and not women, the extreme female beauty standards are also similarly marketed to exploit women's insecurity and not to cater to the "male gaze". The current "bimbo" look that's so popular does not appeal to men, and the followers of influencers who sport such a look are primarily women. If the male beauty standards are a power fantasy dreamed up by men, the female beauty standards are dreamed up by women who like to vicariously live the lavish lifestyle of their favorite Instagram model. "Male gaze" has nothing to do with this.

[@Genderanarchy]

There’s a very cool KZbin account I follow for ftm/ftx fitness called NRG fitness. I’ve done they’re full body stretching (using only body weight resistance) plan several times and the feeling of peace I get afterwards is amazing! As a person who is cafab nonbinary and had top surgery I have some interesting hang on-s about which beauty standards I should keep and which I should get rid of. Ultimately, especially lately, I’ve been doing the Marie Kondo “sparks joy” method of keeping/dismissing thoughts, so if the thought doesn’t spark joy I get rid of it. I’ve felt more body-positive than I ever have before. Thank you for making this video… I’m going to show it to my bf who follows tons of fitness influencers who are obviously roided out and he just can’t/won’t see that these beauty standards are unrealistic.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

And thank you for the recommendation!

[@khazermashkes2316]

I am glad that Fiq sent me here!

[@MS-yg6gh]

This is a very interesting discussion, thanks for your video!

[@thejo6331]

Mtf visitor here! Thank you for making this!

[@Monochrome_11]

I know this a serious topic and good on you for covering it and sharing your own experiences and feelings But that SpongeBob image had me dying 😂

[@UberEric]

This is such a terrific video covering the subject, dog knows it’s complex and multifaceted. I really value you talking about these subjects with such ease and sensitivity while also being firm and direct about the problems underneath.

[@loremipsum3418]

This is a topic so far out of my depths, that i feel as if i was looking through a microscope into an entire different world, so alien and foreign Since i have nothing of value to say to this topic: here is my comment to beat the algorithmn

[@ThePerceptionTrainersPT]

Thank you for this incredibly wise and nuanced share. This is exactly what I thought when the whole Liver King thing went down. I totally understand his whole ethos - the idea that if we just work hard and put our minds to things we can achieve greatness, that if we make all of the 'right choices' we will have an amazing life, that if we invest our time and energy in all the 'important' areas of life that we will be satisfied, and of course selling that you can look like him if you do his strange diet and - most importantly - buy his supplements. Of COURSE people want to believe that. We live in a world right now where so much is uncertain, where we lack true 'male' role models that are embracing their WHOLE humanity, where people are feeling a lot of discontent because our systems are messed up. And it's hard to look at greater structures and why our current models of production and consumption aren't leading to the life of fulfillment we're being promised. So to see someone like L.K looking ripped, looking rich, having a family, getting to smoke cigars and travel the world - we want to tell ourselves it was because of his good choices and good diet - because if that's true, I can have it too. Then when it comes out that he very much cheated to get where he is - that as you said he had that body and that's WHY he was successful it's not that he was something inherently valuable and the body just happened along the way. And to get that body he had to cheat. Then he wove a whole web about how anyone can get what he has, if they just do the diet and lifestyle. What's mind-boggling to me is that in the aftermath, people are STILL BELIEVING that it was the tenants/supplements that mattered? That all of that still counts. Perhaps to a degree - but without the roids, those things would not have led him to the body that led him to the money that led him to the lifestyle. Without the roids, he would be a normal person - which means he wouldn't be wealthy and ABLE to live those tenants the way he does. What you said about this all being about the male gaze was also truly insightful. We live in a patriarchal world where our definitions of success are fully based around male dominance. Around a culture that prioritizes competition, brute strength, force, violence and doing whatever you have to do to win against everyone else. So this romanticization of a 'man' who works out, has a wife, is raising two kids, has a property with animals and help, is 'dominating' his provision - it's the only version of 'successful masculinity' that's available in our culture. Which means SO much of every MAN'S humanity is being erased AND so much of every PERSONS humanity is being erased if they don't fit into the gender binary - and again, even if you do, we are no longer living just to survive and this hunter/gatherer lifestyle - this return to a simpler time - isn't possible nor is it fulfilling. But it's what we're given and so people are still trying to make it work. Even though again, he flies in private jets...he's not living a primal life... So much to think about here. Thank you again for your eloquent exploration of all of this.

[@fara16]

Amazing video! Pinpointing where oppressive standards come from is necessary in order to do away with them, and I’m so glad people like you are doing that work

[@SlimmerCat]

Great video! I always appreciate seeing other trans people draw comparisons between the kinds of gender-affirming care we get and the kinds that cis people get every day. You said you would talk about it more in the future, so I thought I'd drop the idea in the comments-- as much as you're right that it doesn't make sense to reverse-engineer the concept of "the male gaze," plenty of men *do* care a lot about being desirable! It seems more obvious among queer men that the motivation to work out and juice is more about wanting to seem "fit" and be desirable than about competitions of strength. I'm sure at least some straight men care about being desirable, too-- just probably not the ones who go in for eating raw meat and powerlifting trucks, lol. It would be nice if we did have more terms and concepts to describe men's need to feel desirable (and the pressures to try and achieve desirability through self-destructive means) that didn't imply that women are at fault for the state of society. In the future, I'd love to see your thoughts on that angle-- the need to feel hot and how men try to achieve it-- because I bet there's plenty of comparisons to be found between trans and cis experiences there, too.

[@elderscrollsmoddingtech7252]

I agree with this and I'm not saying it's "all women's fault" but if women overwhelmingly post online that when it comes to what they like in a body they prefer tall and skinny/ripped, and there aren't a lot of women who prefer love handles or shorter guys talking about that desire online (or getting a lot of likes when doing so) then dudes who don't fit that will always face a massive uphill battle in feeling desirable, even without all the harmful marketing.

[@FinntasticMrFox]

I am definitely gonna talk about this, yes! It was initially included in this one, but started getting too long and complicated--plus, I'd like to bring in contributors as I can only speak from one perspective, and attraction is so varied. 🙂

[@mikertist347]

These tactics also work on men not dealing with the effects of aging naturally, and the use of TRT. I lift much less/am slower than I was, but I'm glad I can still do it.

[@NonaMoreau]

Subscribed for the wholesomeness.

[@nikkiking4044]

This is the first video of yours that I've seen and im definitely going to check out more. I really appreciate the consideration with which you've approached this complex topic. I'm going to send this to my husband so that we can talk about it- this is one of those topics we both find compelling. Thank you!

[@barninghurtsalot3054]

thank u so much for these videos! they're rly valuable for the cis men i know, but also very much needed for the queer spaces i can share them in. not just for the transmacs in our community, but to make sure that we can take cis and straight mens struggle more seriously and show them that we are not dismissive of them or an obstacle for them, as long as we listen. to you, for example!

[@sharonoddlyenough]

I read about this around 2000, in the book 'The Adonis Complex'. All this has been going on for decades, but I can only imagine how much worse it has become with the firehose of information that the internet has become in the last 23 years

[@FinntasticMrFox]

It was one of my references for this video! Excerpts, anyway, I still need to finish it, and focused on more recent information for this one.

[@sharonoddlyenough]

@@FinntasticMrFox It's a good book, and it's really informed how I see the men in my life, but I am so glad that you put this video together. This is such a valuable resource with a kind tone.

[@Ancusohm]

Great video! Thanks for talking about this.

[@mezziriggs3873]

Eating disorders and body dysmorphia is pretty common in women who have experienced SA too, I think for both it's more linked to control. Traumatic experiences that you couldn't control at the time, or still can't, lead to you asserting your will over what little you can (your appearance/ what you eat/ how much you exercise etc) to feel a semblance of control in response to the trauma.

[@socialistwhore2132]

Here from FD and I'm so glad I got shown your channel ❤️ Just subbed

[@redblaquegolden]

🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 yesssss, lets talk about itttttt!

[@DashValkyrie]

For Australians a hot bajillion Canadian Buckos is about eleventy thousand dollary doos, or a month's rent for a house in Sydney

[@Bradmagus]

The liver king to SpongeBob transition is peak

[@foregroundeclipse8725]

I'm worried I'll never be able to afford transitioning but I need it really bad. It's low-key stressing me out. I'm not rich nor am I great at anything. All I have is a basic high-school degree. I didn't go to college because I've always struggled with school and I was never good at it.

[@froggy-tq6xk]

I hope I'm not jumping the gun, or jumping into a not for me convo - not a man, but I've been trying to gain more muscle, and have thus been inundated with fitness on instagram. Even knowing 99% of these people are on at least something doesn't help fight the dysmorphia and shame that it's so easy to feel when every fit body you see has definition and size for days.

[@Cannabonsai]

Enjoyed this thoroughly

[@armleg]

Damn, there are so many major insights in this video. I hope you get more traction, man; this is an issue people need to talk about more.

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

16:55 I remember hearing about the studies done in gay male communities that found a disproportionately high rate of eating disorders and how it kinda just… clicked for me. Someone I love very much most definitely has some sort of eating disorder and is obsessed with being skinny. He’s a gay man. The studies were done on things like body image and whatnot and beauty standards. I don’t want to see more guys get into disordered eating and eating disorders like he did.

[@pickledcucumber8693]

Yup, and now with those bs terms like “skinny-fat” , simply being slim as a gay body standard is becoming more extremized and not only do you have to be thin to get recognized but you need to have rippling abs and not be able to pinch even half a centimeter of fat (which is mostly skin btw). This is making men more and more susceptible to eating disorders and our capitalistic society encourages eating disorders as long as wealthy “doctors” are making money selling bs

[@larissabrglum3856]

This video is very thoughtful, and sort of a mirror to Contrapoints' video about beauty.