The Dumbest Thing Composers Say

[@MBulteau]

"Pay no attention to what the critics say; there has never been a statue erected to a critic." --- Jean Sibelius

[@MusicaUniversalis]

Gonna remember this quote.

[@Tradairn]

It's taken me 25 years to learn that I can only compose for myself (and my mental health, which seems to require the act of creation in order to avoid depression). When I started composing seriously around the age of 40, I desperately wanted the approval of others and was creatively crippled when I didn't get it; I simply stopped composing. When it became evident that I needed to compose in order to survive emotionally, I chose to compose for myself because it meant I could create work I could be proud of. No, I won't be "successful" financially or popularily in the corporate sense, but succumbing to the whims of my critics would require self-denial and -asphyxiation. The road to self-acceptance has been long and difficult, and I am proud to be writing for myself.

[@bibobabu8756]

I agree completely! Whoever made this video didn't take the emotional value of creating art into consideration...

[@ennyw]

@@bibobabu8756 Exactly. Too focused on becoming the "greatest".

[@Rhythmmical]

@@bibobabu8756 7:15 He addresses that it's fine to composer for oneself if it's a hobby. I think he's aware that there are going to be other valid reasons to not care so much about the opinions of others.

[@pogeman2345]

It's always been in engraved in me that one makes art to move people, whether in the direction you intended to or not, or whether or not you wanted to. If you ignore the audience, ignore those who would actually appreciate what you're doing, then you've basically failed in doing one of the main thing arts is supposed to do which is again, to move people.

[@SCschoolpool]

I am a young musician of 8 years and a composing beginner. This is an extremely profound argument for your point! This is not a outlook that comes up often or at all in the classical world as everyone wants to be next "greatest" which would, in turn, lead them to not be the "greatest". Humility and an awareness of the audience's role in your position as a composer (or performer in my case) is paramount to one's own success mentally and literally! Wonderful video!

[@googlekopfkind]

I spent many years composing music without elaborate ideas because I was afraid of confusing and overwhelming the average listener, which completely blocked my creativity. And I mainly produce game music and beats. When I started composing again 'for myself,' I learned so much new and regained enjoyment in composing. That's why I don't understand your criticism. A composer or an artist should create their art for themselves because only then can they truly express what they like and find intrinsic motivation in it. When you compose for others, you slowly degrade until one day you have to question whether you even want to make music at all

[@ido9988]

Maybe a healthier attitude is to consider composition as a craft, like was common before romanticism arose in the 19th century. The carpenter does not make a chair to be enjoyed for posterity, and the luthier doesn't build a violin or a guitar to last for centuries. They do their craft to be enjoyed in the more immediate term; if someone buys your chair and enjoys and uses it now, you have accomplished your main objective. Of course, some furniture or instruments last for centuries and people pay an awful lot of money to acquire them, but that's a tiny minority. Most are discarded or destroyed a few decades later. And craftsmen know and expect that, but it doesn't stop them. And back to music, Bach probably never expected most of his cantatas to be performed more than once or twice. I'm sure he would have been very pleased if he knew that centuries later they would still be frequently heard in churches around the world, but it wasn't his main goal. So maybe a middle ground between composing for yourself, and composing as a desperate bid for lasting greatness, would be to compose for the now. And then, from that point of view, being forgotten after your death is not a failure at all. Romanticism brought with it two antithetical attitudes toward art: one is that art should be made for oneself, and the other is that art is a way to achieve lasting recognition. The quintessential romantic artist was conceived as a tortured soul who was torn between these two ideals. And then modernity came along and brought with it another attitude, that art should be directed to appeal to the vast masses. In more popular art which spawned whole industries the modernist attitude took hold, while in smaller circles (like classical music, jazz and the academy) the romantic ideal is dominant. But none of these attitudes is actually conductive, and none of them are realistic for most artists. So maybe a return to the older, incredibly ancient view is due.

[@jcortese3300]

This is a really, really, really insightful comment. I think it might imply that there is a connection between the whole Romantic "music for the ages" ideal and the disappearance of improvisation in classical music, too. What is improvisation but something that is born and immediately dies? Less so now with cellphones all over the place, but in the past -- and still in a lot of musical circles today -- improvisation is just something that's done at that moment and then flies off and fades away.

[@anttivirolainen8223]

There's one crucial difference: a carpenter and a luthier create practical items for their own time, but the role of art (and science) is to show the way forward. A carpenter and a luthier respond to the trends of their time, while artists are tasked with creating new trends. When Beethoven began composing more powerful music, the requirements for instrument makers also changed. There is no going back to the past in the sense that the social status of artists has drastically changed from the times when composers regarded their work as a craft. Back then, they were in the service of the court, church, or similar institutions and had to follow their employer's wishes. When artists freed themselves from the yoke of their employers, they had the opportunity to listen to their inner voice and imagine the future of music in a way that no one could have seen at that moment. I do not long for the hollow genius cult typical of Romanticism, but neither do I support a narrow definition of composer's profession as craftsmanship, which especially in today's era of hyper-commercialization, would not work. With the old craftsman's attitude, Tristan and The Rite of Spring would have remained unwritten.

[@wizardish1264]

I compose only for myself. My music is too bad to be heard by audiences.

[@fredericktarr8266]

I compose only for the Gods. I don't care what mortals think about my music.

[@pablom.5698]

Best answer.

[@user-yc3tf4wz2x]

Gold.

[@pdqbachfan]

You just summed up Johann Sebastian Bach perfectly

[@richardpictures]

I love the sentiment in this video, and I totally agree with you. It’s nice to hear someone actually say that you should care about what your audience thinks - and it’s surprisingly very rare to hear this important outlook. Who did the painting near the end of the person sitting on the bench in a park? So beautiful - would love to see more by this artist. Thanks.

[@MusicaUniversalis]

Thanks! It’s just what I think. The painting is called “Plane Trees, Place Des Lices, Saint-Tropez” by Paul Signac. Signac is one of my favorite painters.

[@griffin__sutek4958]

What if it is true though? Like, I compose to my ear, what sounds good to me. I genuinely don’t care what happens to my stuff which is naturally hard to believe. However, I literally record and will listen to my stuff on the daily because it scratches certain itches in my head that other music doesn’t. That’s not to say Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, Strauss, and even Jerry Lee Lewis and Tom Lehrer weren’t massive inspirations. Of course I love and listen to their music and I consider my music this weird boiled down fusion of them. So what of that? Should I still stop saying it? Or every time I do say it go to the lengths of explaining why I do every time?

[@christofthedead]

Because it has no purpose being communicated. It's like going around telling people that you inhale air when you breathe. It's implied by the act, so is redundant and insulting to explicitly announce. Hence why the sentiment surrounding the concept is so eye rolling 🙄 "Oh really? You hear your own music with your own ears? Wow. You use your own judgement to make your own creative choices? Astonishing. You satisfy your curiosity through exploration? How fascinating and unique, do go on...."

[@tompommerel2136]

Thank you for your sanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@lastflowers2401]

I've been smeared relentlessly by the the jealous. This is why I say it. I also feel that music is glory to the divine, and therefore the opinions of men are considered born only of protest.

[@austinclark7586]

I can understand the perspective taken here. I fundamentally disagree though. Great man history is not a great way to think about how talented individuals were. Of course Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms are great but it's not simply that they wrote "good" music that their art endures. It's the structures put in place that have students learn their pieces, the fact that there is a narrow standardized repertoire. There are countless composers who made great music and are rarely played because people aren't required to play them, they aren't in the wider lexicon (popular), or their pieces are almost entirely lost. Cultural tastes change and music is a culturally subjective art form. Making an appeal through objectivism by stating that composers of a high caliber only come around once in a while is the reason why composers live in the shadows of their predecessors. It's not factually accurate to say a certain composer is better than another. Not only is it an unhealthy way for an art form to exist but It's also not accurate (since it's culturally subjective). This is why people struggle to create and struggle to be acknowledged for their art. Art movements have always been more about the group of artists pushing a vision as opposed to one individual. Great music is not just handful of composers or only those that are played today. A look at how historically people thought about music of the past easily shows how these things are not set in stone. Just look at how Bach's music, which in his lifetime was antiquated, today is celebrated. Just because we think these are our great composers today doesn't mean it will stay that way. Acting like it is on the individual rather than the culture of the time is ridiculous and soul crushing for any creative. However, I do like your content so I'm not that mad. Keep doing what you do but I have to disagree with you on this one.

[@curtpiazza1688]

Very timely effective pep talk!

[@Audiojunkk]

Thank you so much for saying this! In a completely different scene (Underground dance music) but this attitude is surprisingly common. So strange.

[@ajosefcomposer]

What piece is playing at 5:33

[@caterscarrots3407]

Of course I care what my audience thinks, but my own thoughts are higher priority. It's more important that I like my own work. If I don't I have to recompose it, rearrange it, or just trash it entirely(my fugues have often ended up just being trashed because of this). Often I do like what I write though. What irks me more is when someone points out mistakes bar after bar with no positivity or even something along the lines of "I understand why you did it, but it's wrong and this is why." This usually happens with my arrangements of Beethoven, this bar by bar detail of what exactly is wrong, and while I don't necessarily mind detailed feedback, when it's in an overly negative tone as has happened with me many times, it makes me feel like a housecat surrounded by lions as I just try to explain my thoughts on it and it seems like they aren't listening to a single word I say. They say I'm too defensive when all I'm trying to do is calmly explain things. Ultimately, I ignore them after I get a negative response to my response because I don't want to start a war over the internet, much less in person, but if only those harsh people could see that they were being too harsh to me and stop being so harsh and start being more constructive, I would really appreciate that. At least I'm glad that this harshness has lessened in frequency, that's one of many signs that I have improved as an arranger and composer(I like to think of arranging as "Composing from a reference point" because it involves the same kind of thinking that writing a new piece does, just with the reference frame of the original piece instead of a new work, so one improves the other, they go hand in hand).

[@NidusFormicarum]

I don't interpret this in the same way. I do agree that saying this stems from an adaption to what you have heared aother people say and that is of course a way of making excuses for your composing music. For me, the big issue has been that some composers despise modern composers writing in old tonal or tradiaional styles. They might say that people would laugh at you for that. I have also heard "be yourself" or "maybe you should get to know how your own voice sounds" - but only from instrumentalists - never from composers! These statements together with the difficulties to develop a social network within the sphere of musical composition with respect to classical music made me stop composing for many, many years and I never felt happy about that. But the thing is that this is constructive criticism and this is definitely not criticism you can learn anything from, so in this case I think it is only healthy to adapt the attitude that you are writing for yourself. There is also another interpretation of "writing for yourslef" and that is making your everyday life work and to taking care of yourself mentally and "spiritually". That is what I tend to mean. I am autistic and not living in the same reality that most of the people arond me, since I am to a large exxtent isolated, don't study in a university and I have never had a job, shich are platforms that you are supposed to be a part of in our society. So ... Composing music in traditional styles is in itself to go outside what is expected by others socially. Few people are ready to meet you there! I have never had anything performed, but I also have to adapt to this reality. What are you writing for? A piece of chamber music is - at least for me - something you want the muscians themselves and a small intimate audience you know to love and enjoy - not the big audience. If you are writing canons for you local choir that music is of course meant to be sung be the people in the choir and for them to enjoy and to perform that music in a public concert would be absurd. If you, on the other hand writes, a piece for large orchestra, two soloists and a five voiced choir - that is obviously music you would want a large audience to embrace. BUT It may not happen in your life time. This is not to be arrogant - that is just reality! Most of your music will not be performed in your life time anowaym right? :) I will also add that - yes, of course you wnat other people to appreiciate your music - but, that doesn't have to be 300 people at the concert hall. I have had friends as well as people I barely know listen to my music on the playback on my computer and some of them are amazed and that counts for something for me! What I miss is my music being peformed by real musicians and not by a silly software. But if the audience where the same - a few dear friends and a couple of random people I barely know and they happend to like - that is fine for me. That IS the big audienced as far as I am concerend. So the formal stuff of getting publiching and your music set up and all of that I don't even count. There is nothing wrong with that, but what is wrong is if it only counts if you get there! That is just silly. I participaed in a theater performance a couple of years ago and one of my co-actors there had written two songs for the play. But we could here that in one of them he wasn't himself, but had just written the music that he thought would please other people and that worked! That is something that I could NEVER have done - not only because it would be an inner crime against the musical gods for me, but also literraly - I simply would have no clue at all how to do that! Maybe some persons get something out of doing that just for doing what is expectecd of them, I don't know?

[@GageSavageau]

Thanks for making this, it opened my mind to the composers intentions when they create. I wonder if they knew their music would be appreciated now. Maybe their confidence came from their knowledge of how it would seem to the future mind.

[@mrplatink]

This reminds me of Prince and his vault full of unpublished music. While we don't know if he intended to release this music prior to his death, one can't help but wonder if the music was only for his personal pleasure, not to be shared or recorded...

[@leonhardeuler6811]

composers say the darntest things

[@ogorangeduck]

For me, I see how it could have been turned from "If no one else likes it, well at least I like it, so that'll keep me going" to forgetting about the "if"

[@FerdinandGommers-c6o]

What is the composition on 5:40?

[@TuhinBepariMusic]

I totally agree with you 😌as a composer I would extremely be happy if my music being appreciated by the audience.. Music is for sharing as I believe 🤗

[@theamaturepro]

When I compose, even just in my head while doing other things, I visualize being in the audience watching myself perform the piece, even though I never have any intentions of performing anything I write. But I basically live my whole life in third person though, as if I'm a fly on the wall. All my actions are based on the perception and judgement I would have towards any other person. Apparently it's not normal and a few therapists have tried to convince me it's not healthy. I don't think much of it

[@ridwancoding5646]

So why should I compose? (in your words)

[@Mamby9Pamby]

I got so lambasted at a composers' forum when I mentioned that I think about the audience when writing music! One argument is that you can't anticipate how people will react to music (which is bullshit).

[@christofthedead]

There are people who genuinely write for themselves, but those pieces are never heard by anyone. Which is fine. No problem with people who accurately describe themselves. But composers who make such a specific statement of intent, and don't follow through, are simply dishonest people. Whether they are lying to themselves as well as the audience, that's unfortunately the only distinction left to make.

[@TheAboriginal1]

What movie is the visual from?

[@Chanmin2007nz]

[Edit: minor grammar fixes and addition of 1 sentence] Thank you for the video! There are many points here that I believe many career artists of all types should consider if they want to be successful (esp. the stereotypical "publicly arrogant full-of-themselves artists" stating they are the "only one" who're forward thinking; these people gives others a bad name). That being said, I cannot help but write that I deeply sympathize with some aspect of those doing art "for oneself". One of the comments reads: [Art is a social and cultural concept, and there is not such a thing as "individual culture"]. I must respectfully disagree with certain aspects of this statement. While culture can only be sustained as a social concept, the definition of art has changed so much over the ages that I personally believe art (and the concept of beauty in a broader sense) can no longer be defined solely as a product of cultural phenomenon. To quote a famous question: "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Or to rephrase: if you have no audience, is your music meaningless? Is your art worthless? Glenn Gould was quoted as "[I] detests audiences, not in their individual components but en mass" (source: watch?v=1nZTgAGSajA) and quit as a concert pianist in his 30's. He was uncomfortable with audiences and made little effort to make any kind of human relationship in his life, both personal and professional musicians with whom he could talk about music with. There are many writers whose literary works (esp. diaries and poems) were revealed posthumously, one of the most famous being [The Diary of Anne Frank] that made Anne Frank into a well known writer after her death. Chopin was generally a very personal man, did not perform for large concerts and was well known for his snobbishness, reacting to criticism or changes to his music with tartness. He once even said of his friend Liszt to "compose for yourself instead of crawling into other people's composition like a pig into a garden" (source: The Legacy of Chopin, Jan Holcman) when he improvised many added notes to his compositions. Now, this is not to say that anyone should disrespect any person for any reason, or to use "the audiences are just stupid masses, ignorant of beauty" as a scapegoat of an argument against any criticism. However, I would like to point out that art can exist in a vacuum, that some do enjoy their form of art purely for themselves, because they enjoy what they do irregardless of what others think; what the video essayist has described as "a hermit" (9:08). Maybe it's just a way to privately express themselves Or perhaps they are highly introverted individuals, possibly with social anxiety. It is in my personal belief that there are many of these hermits under the surface. Will they be "discovered" by others, possibly years after their death? Who knows. The video essayist states "the process of composing only truly ends the moment it's offered to others to be heard. That's the whole point in the end, isn't it? We compose so that the music can be heard by others..." (9:03) This along with every other statements in this video is absolutely true for all professionals of any form and caliber. But if one is merely a hobbyist who understands that, by privately enjoying their art free of any audiences and criticism they will likely not reach the level of perfection that professionals enjoy, and is satisfied with this fact, I think it is perfectly a viable option. Maybe even desirable. I'm sorry if this comment came off as aggressive and off the track, but I felt strongly about this topic. I've been playing the piano as a hobby for about 16 years (still not any good by any measure). During my teens I've seriously thought about pursuing a profession as a pianist. I've been asked to perform for small concerts, even enjoyed some of them. The reason why I eventually decided against being a pianist is because I found I enjoy music much more as an intimate, personal exercise of emotional expression. (It probably didn't help that everyone after my first piano teacher (who was an amazing pianist who helped me to love music), was essentially "prepping" me for "passing an exam", with a very "Asian competitiveness" and strict mindset which made me quit lessons immediately and never had any lessons since) I have done manual labor as a job (before the virus) and a few hand injuries over the years means I can no longer play notes as evenly as I could before (which I found esp. vexing when playing Schubert's impromptu no. 3 and Chopin's harp etude, which I have fond memories of). But despite all that I still very much enjoy playing music as an intimate, private experience.

[@OrdinaryHoomanTho]

I am only 14, so my music theory studies, harmony, counterpoint etc. aren't really advanced, in fact I am at very humble level, I compose neither from the audience, neither from myself, I usually compose for people I know, such as my teacher's son (bc she asked me :p ) or a short waltz in largo (48bpm) that is centered on the I IVm chords that i composed for a girl I like, I am going to tell her monday, idk her reaction, because between us we say we hate each other(mostly an inside joke tho), but we also kissed so it is a 50/50. Wish me luck (if you want)

[@lavendelle_swift]

"I don't care what other people think about my music." - even me, as a Composer nobody listens my own works. (or like that.) Classical Music is hardly to explain to other people, especially the stereotypes. I'll leave those.

[@robertrust]

One thing I’ve been thinking about lately is treating my music as an act of service to my audience.

[@golvic1436]

The audience is who you make the art for, but remember the first and most important member of the audience is yourself. However, the critic is never your audience. Those little fuckers can be ignored so long as others enjoy what you are doing.

[@PinacoladaMatthew]

This video was made by a disenchanted artist

[@ChristianBurrola]

You haven’t given a good reason why pleasing others should be a goal. Art is far more personal than it is communal. And far more subjective. For example this channel tends to talk about the greatness and genius of Mozart and Schubert when I’d rather listen to James Brown or Jimi Hendrix. Hal Galper says the art a person likes is more of a statement about the person’s own sense of style than it is a statement about the creator of said art which is good because this is exactly how style is developed should that person be come involved in the arts.

[@jimslancio]

"I don't write program music. My music is absolute." So said most composers. A few composers, such as Berlioz, were exceptions who embraced the idea of program music, that is, music that tells a story or describes a scene. If it were my music, I'd say "Sure, make up any program you like. Whatever."

[@callenclarke371]

SPOT ON.

[@kofiLjunggren]

Lets goooo!!

[@thedekuseed4965]

Couldnt agree more🙂

[@wietzejohanneskrikke1910]

I disagree with the thesis of this video.

[@juwonnnnn]

👌

[@BCKBCK]

Deeply insane to mention Shostakovich "taking in criticism to improve his output" when the criticism in case was made by Stalin himself and he was afraid to die because of it. Hard to trust anything else you say in your videos.

[@greatestartist5905]

or the logic: criticism = better output. or the focus on output. AI will make output redundant. Someone here said it best, craft is the most important thing, compose for the love of making music itself.

[@samgorton2027]

Disagree.

[@willemmusik2010]

First!

[@jan_Ameki]

Second!

[@crispin5637]

@@jan_Ameki stop

[@jan_Ameki]

@@crispin5637 🤣

[@user-yc3tf4wz2x]

@@crispin5637 🤣