Muslims and non-Muslims Studying the Quran (Sohaib Saeed & Marijn van Putten)

[@doctorSuhailAnwar]

Dr Van Putten I have read and heard your work on Quran. As a Muslim i respect, admire and value your unbiased and fair opinions. It’s only for Allah to pass judgments - may be Allah value you a lot more for being honest than many many dishonest Muslims. Your research has strengthened my faith in Quran.

[@babulsarwar3714]

Amazing discussions - muslim/nonmuslim Quran is for everyone to ponder upon.

[@-Ahmed8592]

Only those with a sincere heart can truly maximally benefit from the quran

[@Solemn_G]

Nice, mature, and frank conversation. I enjoyed it

[@H.M_Khan]

Thanks for addressing my question! Jzk

[@ma7moudshahin787]

that was a great discussion .. my sincere respect and appretiation for their manners and their work .. God bless

[@maniyembe]

Great conversation. Good academic scholarship interrogates the claims, assumptions & pretensions of the subject.....with no bias. Formulate the right questions & wrestle to extract the answers: Fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding)....

[@futurecrunk]

This was an absolute pleasure to listen to.

[@elijah.reynolds]

Re: grammaticality of ان هاذان ... It's a very common development in Arabic (and many other languages) that grammatical number is relaxed, simplified, dropped. We see this process in modern Arabic dialects especially, whereas MSA is a hypercorrection of the classical form. Notably, all purported "grammatical errors" in the Quran are the result of this expectation of grammatical number agreement on plural and dual nouns. There may have been a time pre-Quranically when number agreement of plurals and duals was inviolable, but clearly that was not the case by the late 6th century and onward. The Quran as a historical document is evidence to this as any descriptivist linguist worth his weight in salt will acknowledge this evolutionary phase in the language.

[@abbasr.7422]

Lol, I read that book of T. Bauer! Very fascinating! It gives you a comprehensive birds eye view but also with the bird eye's sharpness. There are here and there positions I don't agree but what a perspective that puts a lot of things in 'perspective'! It also solved a lot off issues I had. I truly enjoyed it.

[@abdallahounes5548]

As a Mulsim, I found the discussion to be really insightful and really valuable but there were some questions that I couldn't help but wish that there were in there, maybe for a future video ? For Sheikh Saed: As a Muslim, what do you think as a Muslim about the research done by Gabriel Reynolds and the like regarding the question of oral vs written composition especially when it comes to the subject of quranic doublets, triplets and so on and the question of a single author vs multiple authors ? And as for Professor Marijn: What do you think as a non-Muslim and as scholar studying the Quran is the aspect of the quran that in your opinion gets most misunderstood by Muslims and non Muslims alike ?

[@IbnAshur]

Thank you, and we’ve taken note of these questions for a future discussion, God willing.

[@halimj7]

Bismillah Salaamu alaikum everyone. For me there are so many questions left unanswered. Please if Allah (SWT) facilitates another opportunity to speak to an non-Muslim academic about Islam and or the Quran let them speak more InshaAllah.

[@IbnAshur]

It sounds like you should do it next time!

[@halimj7]

@@IbnAshurBismillah Salaamu alaikum brother please forgive me if I seemed harsh and not with good akhlaq. I only intended to provide constructive criticism. I edited my post to be better InshaAllah once again please forgive me. Don’t you want to provide the best service to your audience? I sincerely wanted to hear more from someone who studies The Quran - a book that pleads with its listener/reader to ponder and reflect. Why does he not reflect at a spiritual level? How can he justify being an atheist? Does he not see anything in the Quran that is miraculous and compelling? Allah Mubarak.

[@IbnAshur]

@@halimj7 that is fine, everybody can have their own tastes and expectations. But Marijn and I were both very happy with the balance of this conversation. I don’t think going down such a personal route so fully on a public platform would have been appropriate. Thanks for your input.

[@IbnAshur]

And ‘alaykum assalam!

[@naqueeashraf1644]

السلام علیکم. Bro... when are we gonna be able to buy the translation you and ustadh nouman were working on???

[@IbnAshur]

Wsalam. Long time yet. Du’as!

[@fauziahpawan6605]

its still being translated...the work has just started...In Syaa Allah we make doa for guidance and ease in their good effort.

[@DC-wp6oj]

Very good discussion only critique is to allow Dr Putten to finish his sentences off, too much interjecting. Both guys demonstrated a lot of knowledge to the lay person.

[@abbasr.7422]

For me now, I don't care if my faith get shaken, I passed over it, I just want to know the truth! In the end, it is "Al Haqqu min rabbikum" anyway.

[@abbasr.7422]

@@mmss3199 Nice! To me it is also remarkable that there is no fight over the Qur'an despite the "competing" sectarian and political diversity. Blood were spilled but not the Qur'anic integrity!

[@Sam76475]

The philosophical and methodological assumptions one approaches the soruces impacts the results or 'truths' someone discovers. So its not as simple and you think. Modern historians a methodological naturalists. For example, the reason why secular New Testament historians date the Gospel of Mark to after AD70 is because they regard Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the Temple at AD70 is back projected prophecy. This conclusion is only possible if one rejects the notion of prophecy. So, when non-muslim scholars trained in this approach to historical method approach the Qur'an and Islam, you have to be cognizant of where they are comming from and questions the 'truths' they come up with.

[@centi50s]

This Is where I am, I don't think we have the quran of Muhammad in future we will discover

[@samkb6374]

@@centi50s Muhammad peace be upon him. What are you talking about..? Marijn van Putten confirms and demonstrates the preservation of the Quranic manuscripts. He still have question marks regarding the reading traditions but this western science aspect of the Quran is still young and in development. Van Putten himself is also not certain about his conclusions regarding the reading tradition and says nothing is certain.

[@centi50s]

@@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156 the Quran that was written down during Prophet Muhammad time. Does not exist. What we have are copies and we have many versions of Quran too

[@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156]

Marijn van Putten, the idea that the non-Muslims / secular academics do carry biases just as the Muslim narratives carry, which he accepts, nevertheless that he is insisting that the very idea irritates him is part of the problem, as I watched an interview on the KZbin probably some time this year if I could remember at all that I gathered that he wasn't interested - based on what he was saying - what the Qur'aan had to say but that he was interested in linguistically and its origins and the differences in the vocalisations of the words as written down or narrated by narratives of the different Qiraa'aat of the Qur'aan, and giving more importance to the vocalisations of the Arabic dialects rather than the three Qur'aanic vowels "a, aa; i, ii; u, uu" and the desinential inflection based on those three short and long vowels. However, how can anyone Muslim or non-Muslim trace the origin of the words when the Qur'aan itself says that it is an Arabic Qur'aan and at the same time one ignores to relate how the Qur'aan is telling, using the Arabic words, the story of the creation (the whole Qur'aan is a creation story including the guidance being given to humans in the direction to returning to their Creator Allaah and warning against taking the direction opposite to their Creator Allaah), without understanding the Qur'aanic creation story it is impossible to trace the origin of the Qur'aanic words in the different Qiraa'aat (which 80-90 % agreements between them go back to an original written source and not the human memories as human Muslim traditional writings may indicate) and as many secular say the Qur'aan relates similar common personal names to the Bibles therefore the Qur'aan is a copy of the the Bibles without proof whatsoever other than hearsays or opinionated explanations; but this can simply be clarified by understanding Qur'aanic creation from the Arabic Qur'aan itself and understanding how Qur'aanic creation is directly related to how Allaah the Creator is communicating to its audiences at all times, through His Nabii' / Nabiyy and Rasuul, that how they are created and the direction that their lifes is being given and warned is the same! And not studying the Qur'aanic creation by relating to the human, Muslim, tradicional narratives and explanations! As humans we assume and no need to assume that the Qur'aan directly is Allaah's words and His Qur'aanic creation explains best to give us a better understanding of Zawj "Pair /Couple" or simply "contrasting duality in one" {contrasting Masculine and "Feminine / Masculine plural" in one} and {including contrasting duality of Creation and Evolution in one which is part of the Creation by singular imperative masculine "Kun"! = "Be"! 19:67, 18:51, 113:1-5 and 3:59; 15:86 and 36:81; 71:14; 18:50, 7:11-13, 2:35-39, 41:37} and the relation between the Non-Physical Infinitive Finite Allaah the Creator to His Nabii' / Nabiyy and Rasuul and as source to plurals us humans {Banuu- / Banii-Aadam and Banuu- / Banii-Israa'iil} {Kitaab "Qur'aan" and Kutub within the Qur'aan 98:3} and to rest on the this Earth and the rest that exist! As humans, we are Zombies, let the Arabic Qur'aan speak directly, coherently and from internally, instead of human tradicional narratives! There is no Alexander or any other human king selected by people's talks or hearsays / leader historical (whatever that is) or fictional in the Qur'aan! Muslim narratives and Bibles are both human narratives, the human narratives shouldn't be imposed onto the Qur'aan! People's reading who wrote it down (Mutašaabihaatun) shouldn't be confused with the original unknown written source of the Qur'aan (Ummu-lKitaabi) which should be the correct Arabic! Allaah vs humans!

[@JohnGeometresMaximos]

You are all over the place. The koran presents NOT a single original thought - more over there is absolutely nothing useful in the book. The koran is full of old tales and myths the Arabian nomads invented or heard and transmitted from others. Most of it is nonsense, and the rest can be found in other books in more detail.

[@samantarmaxammadsaciid5156]

@@JohnGeometresMaximos Certainly, we the Humanity are all over the place, and the only original about Humanity is Predicament: Humanity's Dilemma! Those OTHER USELESS BOOKS, you talk about, in more details are the very yourself, and YOU yourself said ABOUT YOURSELF: I AND MY TOTALITY'S SELF ARE NONSENSE the opposite of THE TOTAL CLARITY that is THE QUR'AAN!

[@martinriexinger5824]

Al-'awāmm listened and were impressed.

[@IbnAshur]

Thank you, Ustadh!

[@nonomnismoriar9051]

Timestamps - 1:35:46 - 1:36:30 - "Musaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi" -(also see Suras 5:43-48, 5:66-68,10:94, 2:44, 2:85-91, 2:121, 18:27, Jami' at-Tirmidhi 2653, Sunan Abi Dawud 4449, etc)... Could "Allah" not have made it very clear that what the Jews and Christians have is not trustworthy? It says the exact opposite. Is Allah a liar, a deceiver, or can't communicate properly? Does he like pseudo-Gnostic games where only a select enlightened few understand a coded message (the alleged most important message in human history?)

[@IbnAshur]

You might get a different reaction at a polemical channel. Here, we might take your question more constructively: what does the relative clarity and obscurity of aspects (or levels) of Quranic discourse suggest about its Revealer? And what does this entail about the theology of human responsibility? To reply more specifically, “musaddiqan” doesn’t necessarily mean an endorsement, and “ma bayna yadayhi” is most evidently about the original revelations. I’m well aware of the debate over the veracity of what was “in their hands” (a separate point).

[@nonomnismoriar9051]

@@IbnAshur "what does the relative clarity and obscurity of aspects (or levels) of Quranic discourse suggest about its Revealer" It suggests it wasn't revealed by God, but by a human who was ignorant about the contents of the previous Scriptures and made a huge blunder. But ok let's put polemics aside. What can you say from a secular perspective on this? If this channel is for that, then what can you say about it? "To reply more specifically, “musaddiqan” doesn’t necessarily mean an endorsement, and “ma bayna yadayhi” is most evidently about the original revelations" How? How does it not mean an endorsement, and how does it not mean what is in front of them in the 7th century? Could Allah not have said ""al-tawrātu ʾl-aṣlī"?

[@IbnAshur]

@@nonomnismoriar9051 to be honest, you started by asking some things that were already answered (whether to your satisfaction or not) in the recorded discussion. It’s fine to ask big questions, but KZbin comments aren’t really the place to have those discussions. Thanks for your engagement.

[@mrtransmogrify]

4:44 Yeḥulfa i yiman-nnes dakken yegzem yiwen ur yelli d ineslem la yeqqar Kurɛan. Acḥal d taḥercit!

[@pastelqueenwudel]

A VERY interesting video. I always thought Dr. Putten was a Muslim or he didn't talk about being Muslim or a non Muslim. 😁

[@IbnAshur]

Probably when people ask on Twitter in a rude/entitled manner, he prefers not to answer about his personal beliefs. But AFAIK he’s never implied he’s a Muslim.

[@user-zw2dl9sr3x]

"Divide the Quran by 19 and multiply it by 16 and Alllah will come out" lol this is the most hilarious thing I've ever heard

[@paulthomas281]

Dear Sohaib Saeed, will you be reading Stephen Shoemaker's "Creating the Qur’an: A Historical-Critical Study"? It is just out. And what Fred Donner says about it just cannot be ignored.

[@IbnAshur]

I’ll be honest that I don’t make a point of keeping up with the very latest revisionist theories. But eventually we catch up with each other. I’m hoping to hear Donner in person this September about his historian’s perspective on the Quran.

[@monotheist..]

no grammatical mustake in quran

[@JohnGeometresMaximos]

There is no such thing as islamophobia.

[@unhingedconnoisseur164]

what are your thoughts on the christchurch shooting then? or any act of violence done against a muslim? or the concentration camps in china?

[@MohammadIrfan-v8q]

U are a clown

[@georgeeinarsson5956]

You’re retreating throughout the entire conversation probably because you knew that all evidence available is pointing towards human origin of the Quran not divine. But as you know as a man of faith you find every reason why it could possible mean something else.

[@unknownpng650]

the quran is not divine bc you said so? hmmm good argument

[@georgeeinarsson5956]

@@unknownpng650 Did you watch the video mr delusional?

[@aismail8321]

Lol... I think your comment is an example of what they were talking about. Muslims for a millennia had no issues with the differences in the text or Qiraat and they never doubted the divinity of the religion. And even now, considering the level of preservation of the text, there is nothing for a Muslim to doubt the preservation or its divine origins. No one is denying the fact that Muslims approach the Qur'an with faith. And I don't think any Muslim who understands Islamic concept of guidance would say that you would accept the divine origin of the religion just through some intellectual or rational reasons.

[@georgeeinarsson5956]

@@aismail8321 You just prove my point buddy no need to go further. Reason and rationale isn’t required to believe the divine origin of the Quran because it wasn’t divine in the first place that’s why you need to ignore reality and that’s why religious dogma could be dangerous because it makes you act on belief and faith instead of reason and reality.

[@MohammadIrfan-v8q]

😂