Mutalisk Madness | CNSL 7

ro16 Group D - MisO (Z) vs XiaoShuai (Z) - Decider Match, bo3
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[@candrummer100]

"I hope you like Zerg vs Zerg NO DON'T IT TURN IT OFF" was absolutely hilarious

[@yaninacepqni2091]

I played it back few times haha

[@eZeero]

Zerg versus Zerg. The Brood Wars indeed...

[@dragontarus]

More Arty screaming frantically to not tune away please

[@aeis3263]

Starcraft Music... still epic even today. GG

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

Yea blizzard back then was on another level, before the incompetent businesspeople came in

[@yaninacepqni2091]

I'm often playing it in my car or van when I have to go long distance drive. SC 1 or 2 (terrans)

[@meguemil8542]

That intro was gold. Gotta love Artosis

[@FlymanMS]

Black looks incredible on Zerg. Congrats to the winner.

[@briancorbett3600]

I was just thinking this - Black looks sick on Zerg

[@AngusKhan21]

There is very little that does not look better in black. Black is the most versatile color.

[@FlymanMS]

@@AngusKhan21 Protoss don't look good in black lol

[@eZeero]

I honestly like Red more on Zerg. It makes each unit feel more lethal and special, if you know what I mean. Same reason I like Green on Terran and Protoss. *Ehm* campaign units.

[@carlosespinoperez5685]

I’m a big fan of your channel. Always showing huge admiration and sportsmanship to the letter 💙

[@sleepypanda2723]

I played competitively in a CCG and the format was you bring 3 decks, both players get to ban one of their opponents, then you have to get a win with both remaining decks to win the set. One of the top players would flip a coin to chose which deck to start with, because if it wasn't random, his opponent could theoretically give themselves the best chance they could have at winning the set by counter picking their first deck choice, and it quickly became the "go-to" way of playing sets. There weren't very many top players that didn't flip coins to determine their first deck choice.

[@Haleukin]

Game Theory Optimal (GTO) in poker is the randomization that you’re talking about. IMO this is good against unknown opponents. Against known opponents, it’s better to apply Exploitative Strategies based on your opponent’s style. I’m pretty sure in higher level poker they use a combination of GTO and Exploitative, where they apply the best exploitative strategies in a randomized formula. But I think that still means it’s a mind game in the end. Maybe I’m wrong though, not too great at StarCraft or Poker lol. Thanks for your casts Artosis, cheers!

[@Limrasson]

Well going random means you turn off mind games completely, no? So if you think you'll lose the mind game duel, it's better but if you can win then no. But also this is a bit different from poker too, so strats in the pool should be weighted, right?

[@ChibiRuah]

I feel the better your opponent is, the worse going for Exploitative strategies are. Anything other then GTO is only good if you are confident they are exploitative, and you have the right read. If you are wrong then open yourself to Exploitative , or even just being slightly lower expect value than just playing GTO if your opponent just plays GTO. In the theorical world, You play GTO, or you lose to GTO, everything else is equal at best and more often suboptimal (Nash equilibrium is achieved) The 3 issues i see with purely going for GTO are 1) what the GTO for a game like starcraft is very hard even began to with as what build beat what are not set in stone as execution will cause different results with the same builds. 2) the number of builds is really high. although 5 pool vs 6 pool maybe very simlar, the would have different values. 3) People suck at randomizing things way way more then they think. People cant play GTO. Personally I think people that take any game seriously should focus on always playing as close to GTO as they can at least at the start. Its way easy to over think things, and playing closer to GTO will help you vs everyone vs Exploitative only helping you against people that share a weakness. If you think your opponent has either a blind spot or very predictable, then move off GTO and exploite their weaknesses. but I find it really easy to read in to pattern that are not there outside just trying to be less predictable yourself and having better understand of the risk vs rewards. This is my basic game theory understand and i more use it in fighting games.

[@Haleukin]

GTO ideally covers all your strategies in weighted formats, like in Rock Paper Scissors if you don’t know your opponent. You should have a 33% weight of going Rock/Paper/Scissors. BUT let’s say your opponent goes Rock 100% of the time. GTO makes no sense here. You should go Paper 100% of the time (which is Exploitative strategy)

[@ZoeCalico]

Thanks CasterMuse and Artosis!

[@Granodd]

The talk about StarCraft mind games involving letting something else choose your build order reminded me of the whole "If I don't know what I'm going to be doing then my opponent won't either"

[@johndonut4087]

Damn Artosis, you are amazing, thanks for keeping such an amazing game alive for us!

[@julkiewicz]

Artosis sounds like my mom when he's talking about the importance of ZvZ

[@MajinSaha]

Indeed 😂

[@yaninacepqni2091]

Somehow when people grow up enough they start sounding like that when they really want you to understand because they know better. I feel that I'm like this sometimes

[@veidro]

Finish your ZvZ first or you're not getting any TvP for dessert!

[@Adrian_Franco]

hahahaha "don't turn it off!"

[@tellumyort]

Was not expecting Artosis to talk about poker GTO but I’m here for it.

[@Olodus]

I personally really like mirror matches. It can get really intense. Micro can decide so much. It can also sometimes lead to scenarios you very rarely see, which is really interesting.

[@somecooney5304]

Does it come down to 3 basic play style choices: Aggressive, Greedy, Safety. Options are either: 1) Hold to a certain style and be known for it (which can then be a set-up for the occasional switch-up). Think ZeLot going safety, lol. 2) React to opponents play style. ie. He went this last game, so I'm gonna do this next game... Ad nauseam. 3) Randomly select play style via generator 4)Use a pre-determined pattern. This is most applicable to 'best of' series. ie. Always open safety. Next 2 games super greedy. 4th always cheese etc etc? I'm not sure if a random generator works out the way you hope. Like that episode of Big Bang Theory, when Sheldon rolls the dice to decide everything for a day.

[@user-knhgvg454g]

Yeah. It's funny how players will transition also from a lot of aggression to doing a lot of greedy plays and finally end up doing safe play(flash was like this if you go back and watch his games from year to year I believe although artosis would know better as he saw all of flashes games basically)

[@theamaranth8825]

15:46 two of Miso's scourge connect and take out one of XiaoShuai's first mutas

[@darkstrong4553]

Yeah, I completely agree with the "eliminate the mind games" suggestion. I actually used something similar during my CCG "career". In a bit different way, since there is a lot of random in game as is, but it did allow me to get a bit of edge over people who were heavily into meta-gaming.

[@blankempty5128]

"I hope you like ZvZ- NO NO, DON'T TURN IT OFF!" Yes, ZvZ is why I am here Best match up in the game as Zerg always wins, but honestly the high speed and razor edge advantages makes every ZvZ match exciting.

[@buzzKillerCSS]

Watched the whole thing!

[@joebazooks]

when they made remastered, did blizzard just go into ms paint and randomly select colors from the palette?

[@kel12123]

While mirror matches are my least favorite, all Artosis casts are the best!

[@Havlark]

Regarding the mind game thing - you can't predict if I'm going to throw rock paper or scissors if I can't predict if I'm going to throw rock paper or scissors.

[@dtibvgz8441]

For tournaments (and even long series of matches between same players - type of videos) I would really like to see the overall game result on the UI.

[@BloodstarDE]

My favorite match. About the mind games, I would be interested how pros think about the idea. Can you do some pro interviews with a couple of questions?

[@Alvesinater]

So the mind game thought process thing at 12:35 ish. I think RT is obviously correct here, but it only applies to initial mind game around starting build orders. It wouldn't have any impact on the hundreds of tiny little mind games that play out throughout the game. I think it would give the player a motivational advatage if they are choosing their build based on some random metric. Just knowing for a fact that you oponent has no idea what you are going to do.. because you don't even know what you are going to do. That modivational advandage can probably go a long way in terms of improving your play style in the early game. So nice thought RT, really hit the nail on the head there lol.

[@NealX_Gaming]

I just feel that (WARNING: chat opinion incoming) they should have shaken up the ZvZ meta more by making (1) Devourers easier to get to rather than requiring Hive and Greater Spire and (2) Spore colonies should deal splash damage. Would definitely be more fun than endless ling muta in every single game, if Z's could defend their bases against muta stacks with Spores, opening up late game economies and alternate tech paths more easily.

[@Xaan-lm4hb]

Oh yeah by the way Artois if you feel like answering, you say mirror matchups have less viewership, but is that in general, or does it fluctuate between races?

[@EebstertheGreat]

If you worry that your enemies out-mindgame you, then you can absolutely use an RNG before each game to select your build. It's still not really true that your opponent _can't_ out-mindgame you, though. If you assign one build an excessively high or low probability, then your opponent still might predict that just like they might predict and exploit that (most of the time, anyway). Only if your mixed strategy is a Nash equilibrium can it not be exploited, and nobody actually knows what the equilibrium is for StarCraft builds.

[@Fanelan053]

Zvz does get irritated but I mean if we're watching a tournament it's expected to have some mirror matches and they were good for what they were

[@yaninacepqni2091]

Even tho I play protoss or terran but almost never zerg, I really love ZvZ. It's mostly about build order but also it's about skill. Especially if they play mirror builds then it's only about their skills. gg

[@TheLordblackjr]

You're hilarious RT

[@waifusalldayeveryday]

WHo is not watching the zvz's? I will never stop watching zvz's!

[@jonathaniszorro]

ZvZ is my favorite mirror matchup

[@alexfriedman2152]

lol I literally almost turned it off but then you said "NONO DONT TURN IT OFF".. So I decided to see which player controls his flock of mutas better. What a win condition. Run lings into eachother and then control mutas better than your opponent. Wow.

[@BenjaminGlatt]

I've been on a bit of an AoE2 kick lately and it is wild to me how an entire BW set can be played in the "early game" of one Age of Empires map.

[@alexfriedman2152]

Keep in mind ZvZ is the fastest matchup. Often PvT or TvT can go 45 minutes to an hour per game. ZvZ on the other hand is like 5-10 minutes lol.

[@BenjaminGlatt]

@@alexfriedman2152 those are still kinda uncommon in BW, while AoE games going over an hour is pretty normal. It's just a slower game, which is cool.

[@rocksparadox]

Love the cast Dan , despite it being Zed vee Zed but for FOOKS sake, it's ''Twice as MANY Larvae''. much: uncountable nouns (milk, marmalade, money, time etc.) many: countable nouns (bottles of milk, jars of marmalade, dollars, minutes etc.)

[@ottomann4846]

Yes I know what you're saying, but that takes away your chance to mindgame them. It maybe makes sense if you think you are stronger at execution so if mind games are out of the equation then you win?

[@iceee420]

Zvz is the best match up, "knife fighting in a dark closet" to quote winter

[@qcdoomqc]

Brood war ZvZ is absolute garbage… in SC2 it’s not that bad

[@Forerunner42]

it's honestly so boring. I've really tried to like it.

[@Xaan-lm4hb]

@@qcdoomqc SC2 ZvZ is preeeetty bad, but at least you might occasionally see a unit other than a mutalisk. BW ZvZ just feels very figured out strategically, the last pro-level game I can find that reached Hive is literally 13 years old.

[@danielsommerlykke9475]

@@Xaan-lm4hb There was a hive game this ASL.

[@luckartist]

If you randomize, yes, you wont be exploiter by "hard countering" or "mind gaming". But some strategies against a fully random player will be +EV :D So if someone just does the only strategy, that is maybe not optimal vs few of your options, but better than most options from your randomized pool. he will have the edge over the long run.

[@supaflytoon7684]

I'm a Protoss fav guy, who loves cross spawn nexus first (lol) - but ZvZ are the only same race games worth watching really.

[@john-ic9vj]

TvT is better

[@miramosa7768]

What's good about ZvZ is even if you hate it, at least it's over quickly.

[@ObeliskM]

TvT and PvP are much more interesting imho

[@Crud-Stevens]

cool beans

[@JackVermicelli]

I've watched this whole series, and the last one with the different roster, and I don't think Artosis once gives explanation for what "CNSL" is the initialism for. Even if I'm not the intended audience, you'd think he'd use the full name at least once.

[@TagaBearClaw]

ggs

[@briancorbett3600]

IMO, ZvZ has become one of the wildest matchups in the past year or so. Action has looked sick recently (Action vs Effort last ASL was insane) and the recent ASL ZvZs were incredible

[@riuoku]

Were we watching the same ASL? The final was literally just muta spam, not even a single spore in the entire match... ZvZ gets worse and worse IMO

[@railenmiles]

But i like seeing parallel zergling conga lines

[@IlllIIIllIlIllllllIlll]

Z v Z really could have used some work. It barely ever evolves past zerglings and mutalisks/scourge. Very little variety. Very very micro focused with less macro focus. I certainly don't know how it could be improved, but i'm sure Artosis has ideas.

[@riuoku]

If broodwar got a balance patch and moved Devourers as an upgrade in Spire before Hive tech then maybe there would be a counter to Mutas in ZvZ.

[@adammckay852]

Mirror matches are the only way to determine skill between players. All matches should be mirrors untill the final 3 players, that way it shows who is actually the best with each race 😂🎉

[@markkirschstein]

@ 9:40 you're explaining a strategy that professional poker players use in spot so they can't be exploited as well.

[@drewwalbeck6006]

I'm staying for the algorithm but ugh, first asl finals now this 😅

[@Classic_DionysuS]

Its ZVZ! :everyone turns off: Arty: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. It's def true tho, I play Zerg only and just despise this matchup.

[@alan138]

If i think about why i dont like ZvZ at least myself, you know i cant speak for others. What really bores me is that its way too build one sided, its probably really difficult for those how play zerg. A bad build quicly lead into GG, and thats why not often we see a late ZvZ, it only happens when both players do terrible bad or really well, the most insignificant mistake is almost instant GG. Wich is not usually the thing on other match ups, even the other mirror matchups, are way more forgiving in that regard. ZvZ is like going DT rush or proxy barracs/factory every game, its decided really quicly at least most of the times.

[@pilldouglas5379]

Lmao, best of 3 under 20 minutes. I wonder if it's z vs z

[@ianfarris9396]

ZERG WINS!

[@QuincelSC]

I love these vids but can you please pad the runtime as an anti-spoiler? Even Z v Z a video this short must be a 2-0.

[@illusion2438]

I was gonna click off this video because it was zerg vs zerg but Artosis calling us out to stay made me watch 😂. Wish this matchup had more macro opportunities though.

[@Aphasiesc2]

To answer your question, I really don't like assigning definite values to certain builds on specific maps and "rolling the dice" on default. That has always been the non-championship player way to approach a series or tournament ("I will nex first on map X") Ro8 instead of Finals. Starcraft is a heads up game which has more feeling judgement calls, so applying straight general "solver" poker concepts is stupid in my opinion. But poker terms fit the bill. You should try to win the pot/game based on percentages. Basically each map is it's own equation favoring aggression, economy, maybe cheeses. Put on top of that you have the players relative strength to one another. For instance the reason Flash has such ridiculous win rates is that he knows how likely he will win straight up so people make small percentage plays/advantages which he then counters. If you are the inferior player you need to polarize your range further. Shine almost beat Flash twice in series, but lost because he didnt polarize enough. He snuck a mineral only third base in both series and Flash scouted literally every possible expansion except for the most unlikely base - but Shine lost because he polarize enough. He tried to play the advantage of having an unscouted, saturated third, but it isnt enough against his M&M. No gas straight up play = no win Shine v Flash. He would have won if he snuck the third, made four drones and then pumped 12-20+ speed lings which would have flanked with his usual two base muta/ling and crushed Flashes patrolling his M&M. Gained map control and he could have gone a gas fourth, then leaned on his advantage. These makes the "blue print" then on the specific map you make a judgement call on: 1. How strong is polarized play for each player 2. Based on this perception, how likely is that player try to exploit said advantage on relative skill or percentage. 3. Based on that you try to counter-polarize the perceived range of and you have your relative values. (X% greedy play, X%safe plays, %X Cheese/BO wins). I rarely see the better players lose series, because when the "lose the flip" they lose small, and when they win they win big. Starcraft players are highly stylized, they trust their own skills and most often follow their own "image". The true art is applying your opponents sense of self and of you, and then stretching you polarization along the edges for the most favorable outcome. You get very far with "my opponent thinks im weaker" "my opponent thinks im stronger" "my opponent thinks is pretty even". In the end you should always have a % of which should apply each BO (greed, safe, tech/cheese) - which can be randomly chosen if you want to - to each map, but not taking your relative image into account from which you skew the percentage is folly. Outsmarting to the third, fourth and fifth degree rarely happens from what ive seen. Long winded, sorry about that, but thats why Shine is so successful relative to "his skill", he skews it to the percentage he need to win - anything goes. My 2 cents

[@UCfjZmDYoZY3laj2mfiinm7gc]

9:19 / 18:44

[@nandinoo]

I will endure the suffering of zvz knowing my deliverance is close at hand

[@stevengerrrard]

: )

[@heyimSkyee]

Zvz😂😂😂😂 nooo still love ya arty

[@leocarl5264]

ASL Final raceces🤣

[@HaveANiceDayDude]

I like ZvZ

[@arturkaczan1776]

please add real names near nicknames. If its ZvZ is hard to look which is which

[@joebazooks]

greed in ZvZ always wins

[@somecooney5304]

How much free time do you have. Go back through the last 10 season series' of both ASL and CNSL, and categorize the play style orders of the winners and losers. I wonder if a disproportionate number of game 1 winners, were aggressive, where the loser of the match went greedy? I would put money on series game ones, were opened by an aggressive player beating a greedy player, more often than any other combination. Game 1 is a big one in any series. Is there a particular play style that the winners of game 1 use, more often than any other. I bet most game 1s are aggressive players, beating greedy players. Imo, figure out which play style dominates game 1 of a series, and start opening with that.

[@TheAsgardTrickster]

Starcraft I music makes ZvZ tolerable. Actually, it makes a lot of things tolerable.

[@JointStock]

I like ZvZ 😊... it's TvT that is usually unbearable

[@john-ic9vj]

TvT usually has more strategic structure to it, ZvZ is mostly just make more mutulisks than the other guy

[@JointStock]

@@john-ic9vj it's funny because it's very likely that the opposite is true. the biggest bottleneck to playing terran effectively is mechanics, as terran is known to be the most mechanically demanding race. this is why all of the top terrans have a favorable mirror matchup, although that's not necessarily the case for top players of other races. thus, tvt is just an extremely drawn out test of who is better at pressing buttons, which is very boring to watch. what you perceive as superior "strategy" is actually just the more mechanically gifted player being able to properly execute what the other player wants to be able to do but can't.

[@Zandros]

I prefer ZvZ to TvT. If a game is going to go the same every time, I'd rather it be 5 minutes than 50 minutes.

[@Elfcheg]

ZvZ is garbage. Only Artosis can make it interesting to watch!

[@kundogb]

Using "random tactics" with % you create with a generator, probably doesn't make much sense. If you're talking about just committing to a tactic so that you "don't fall for mindgames", it's the same whether you do it like this or otherwise. I think the key thing is to always try to improve your scouting, so that you scout a second time in order to avoid mindgames (of course, sometimes you just can't and you have to assume what you're opponent might be doing).

[@Tablon_Nibbles]

I would be a Zerg player, ZvZ is the less fun match, BUT, the problem is not the match, man! The way that it is played makes it boring. Always the same results... Zerlings and then Mutas. If players play different obviously change everything!

[@MayoBoyKid]

ZvZ more like ZzZ ;)

[@davidm2031]

Ya that ASL finals was a snooze fest. Both guys deserved it so hard that it comes down to the coin flip that is ZvZ

[@MattLyte]

I also don't understand the subtleties that make starcraft great and base my view of the game on trite generalities drawn from players I could never compete with

[@ObeliskM]

The most boring mirror. Always mutalings. Just mutalings.

[@damn671]

ZvZ so boring. Lings then mutas.... then back to lings... then mutas again.... that's it. Every game...

[@01296501923654]

I've had the same thought. I believe you only gain by doing that if you're overall stronger than your opponent, or if you're simply too easy to predict/mind-game. When you're weaker, you should attempt to get an advantage via mind-games, since otherwise your chance of winning is below 50%. When you're stronger, you should pick a strat randomly to deny your opponent the ability to mind-game you. I think the logic is sound...?

[@ArtosisCasts]

Good take