My Death Valley Large Format Frustration Explained

In this week's video, I explain in depth what happened in my Death Valley Episode 1 video, and what I learned from the process.
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[@DannyFyffe]

You had a problem, you thought it through, you solutioned that problem and have a working plan. Fantastic job.

[@BenHorne]

Yup! It's all about what we learn from the situation. Thanks as always Danny!

[@JamesLanePhoto]

Being someone who is just starting out with large format, I really appreciate this video Ben. Thanks very much, I learned a lot from it.

[@ScottWalton]

Hi James! Welcome to the large format world. There's such a great community of people here. Ben is so helpful and great at explaining things and inspiring us too.

[@JamesLanePhoto]

Scott Walton Thanks Scott! Yes he’s helped me loads. I can’t wait to get started when this whole virus thing is over!

[@BenHorne]

So glad you enjoyed it! Metering is one of the most important learning curves out there with LF.

[@my2004rt]

Love the idea of using the grey card. Thank you!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Frank! It really does come in handy for those situations when there aren't any reliable dark and light tones to sample from. It really is a lifesaver.

[@Eigil_Skovgaard]

My experience from exposing 4x5 inches sheet film using a Toyo bench camera years ago was with the obvious limitations vs the lust for detail peeping (down to the corn level of the film). Five minutes from hand-trailer to finished exposure was my personal record. That reaction time and the derived choice of very static scenes occupied me for ten years (exercising the zone system). Actually, as you explain, the sun is the fastest changing parameter in this upside down world to either destroy your image or make it perfect. But I must say. I have really welcomed the digital development in this area. All the poisonous chemistry from the old darkroom have not destroyed my ability to take full advantage of Photoshop, etc. I don't quite understand why people in 2020 take up the old routines. Or maybe I do, to some degree. Some of us have to find out for ourselves.

[@BenHorne]

That's one of the reasons why I enjoy the hybrid workflow of digital and film I get the best of both worlds. It pushes me to learn and to stay sharp, but scanning the film allows me to make up for some of those mishaps that would be difficult to fix in the darkroom.

[@fachiro1]

Ben....I dont shoot large format, but I've been following you...been able to get a ton of tips from you and wanted to thank you. I also have to say....you are truly from another world...absolutely INCREDIBLE!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks so much Roger! I appreciate that!

[@TimothyMcGawUK]

This is what terrifies me about shooting slides. Thus far I've stuck with colour negative, where I know I'll never regret a couple of extra stops. Although, with the vibrancy of colour on slides, the satisfaction of getting it right must be a great feeling.

[@BenHorne]

For most scenes, it's not too tough to work with, but it's mostly when the light is changing fast, or the scene is beyond the exposure latitude of the film that it gets tricky. Just like anything though, it's all about coming up with a system to cope with those tough to deal with situations.

[@TimothyMcGawUK]

@@BenHorne Thanks, I'll bear that in mind once I get around to shooting again. :)

[@ParkerHill1]

Great video Ben, I always enjoy your videos.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Parker!

[@lonnatucker3575]

I use a Pentax digital spot meter as well. It has been modified with a Zone system sticker. For color transparency, meter and place the highlight detail, for black and white, meter and place for shadow detail and process film with a push or pull in development to control the contrast. For color zone system shooting, it’s important to understand how colors should be placed on the scale. For example, bright yelows place at zone 6.5 to 7, backlit green grass around zone 6, pine trees foliage zone 4 to 4.5, tree trunks about zone 5, etc. Meter all the different elements of the scene and determine the contrast range. Is any area too dark or too bright? You’ll quickly gain confidence in this method. One last plus for the Pentax digital spot eter is that the digital readout is red LED, which is great to use and see in low light.

[@DavidBrookover]

Ben, you basically, in the end, did everything right. While watching your video I was feeling an old familiar tension which took me back to similar scenarios from the '90s and early 2000`s when photographing for myself and Fujifilm. Often, I would also just go with the feel of the exposure time when over 1 second in hopes of finding that appropriate aperture/exposure time variable the copal shutter didn`t provide. I preferred the Pentax 1 degree analog meter because of this as I could see the readout (in a visual sense) and then make quick adjustments. I definitely feel for you now, as the film price for the original Velvia 50 back then was approx $265-$325 for 50 sheets. Yep, 50 sheets to a box. Fortunately, mine was free, so I was able to experiment more because of this. We`re all wired differently during these intense photographic do or die moments but I do admire your tenacity in getting it right in camera. Best of luck in all your endeavors.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks so much for chiming in David! I really admire your work, so it means a lot to hear from you. It's pretty crazy how fast the light can change in those situations. I shot another photo in years past with those same mountains in the background, but perhaps a mile further up the road. I used color neg film for that scene which of course was fine. Based on what I learned, hopefully the next experience like that will go much smoother. There sure is something nice about seeing slides though. I sure wish I could buy a 50 sheet of box for that much. Those were definitely the glory days of film. I would certainly be much more willing to experiment if Fuji was covering the cost of the film. Thanks again David! One of these days, I'd love to see your gallery in person.

[@Robert-ko6wr]

Come on now ... change the setting on your large format camera from manual to auto, shoot the shot and fix everything in Lightroom. HA! You shook your head and then smiled just a bit. I know, it’s ok ... or ... you could do what large format photographers have done for 70+ years and meter off your grey card. BRILLIANT! You use modern lightmetering with a modern grey card to get you where you need to be. Nicely done! You frustrated? Perhaps but you had the solution. Always enjoyable AND educational watching your videos. Thank you. Cheers.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Robert! That did indeed put a smile on my face. :-)

[@BretBihler]

I watch a lot of your videos. I really respect your work with the large format and the amount of work you put in. That in comparison to me just using a mirrorless Sony, and getting the instant feedback of a picture taken, being able to see ones errors and make corrections right away. Keep up the good work!

[@BenHorne]

I will say that shooting a mirrorless kit sure is tempting at times!!

[@terrywbreedlove]

I use a pop up grey card much like yours. I use it all the time and it has a target in the middle which I use to focus my 4x5 on. I mostly shoot the rainforest here so I place it say on some moss or ferns and focus on it then take a quick spot metering and it does fantastic. I shoot 99% black and white film but this last summer I did shoot some really bright orange what we call chickens of the woods mushrooms on Velvia 100 and the exposure was spot on using the card. Your 1st post really touched my heart I might go back and explain why. Keep strong :)

[@BenHorne]

That's great to know that the gray card works very well up in the dense forests as well. I see how it can be a challenge up in the forest environment where you deal with a lot of brightly colored subjects that aren't as easy to spot meter like the larger, and more neutral tones in the desert. Thanks as always for watching and commenting Terry!

[@terrywbreedlove]

Ben Horne High overcast days are my giant soft box :)

[@romiemiller7876]

I shot a lot of 4x5", but I never had an 8x10". That's a lot of weight to lug around! I remember going through all that stuff metering. It could be frustrating, especially with transparency film. With black and white you can vary exposure v. developing time. But that also effects contrast, so there may still be an issue. Now I understand the problem in the other video.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Romie. It is a lot of work, but there's something about the process that's quite fulfilling. Much of it becomes second nature, and it sure does feel great when you click the shutter then return the darkslide.

[@GregMitchell]

For me personally, moving away from the Sekonic meter and into an old Pentax Digital Spotmeter has made life so much easier and more enjoyable while out in the field. Nick's process works amazingly well.

[@BenHorne]

I now have both meters, which will be good because I like having redundancy while on my trips. I do enjoy the process of working with the Pentax, though I also see some advantages to the Sekonic as well. I like the Sekonic's way of compensating for bellows overextension and filter use, and also it's ability to see the direct brightness of the subject relative to your exposure in the viewfinder with an averaged setting. I'll take some time to work with both of them, though I suspect that the sekonic with a gray card mixed in with a highlight/shadow reading for a triple average will still be my primary method.

[@sjmheron]

For my own photography, I enjoy it most when I'm learning and it sounds like you found a positive outcome of a stressful situation. Hope you can get back out there soon.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Sam! Yup, it sure is great when we continue to learn. That's what allows us to grown and become even better later down the line. I don't know about you, but I sure learn much better from my mistakes than from my success. :-)

[@Nat.ImagesLarge.F.Photographer]

Ben,difficult period, we hope that we can return to normal as soon as possible, stay safe.Fantastic work as usual.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks! I sure look forward to getting back out in the field again!

[@lotus30com]

You mention in another post, "The issue I have with incident readings is that I can't verify how bright or dark each subject will be at that setting." I've not used your Sekonic, but I have the Minolta Flash Meter VI, another incident/spot meter. With it, you can make an incident reading and then once that reading is on the display/in memory, you can switch to spot metering and scan the subject and spot meter areas of interest. It will show how much over/under the spots compare to the incident reading. I thought your Sekonic can do the same thing. This works great in situations where the foreground and where you are standing have the same light - like in this video. Just stand at the camera, hold the meter out, hold the dome with it aimed towards the light source, and take a reading. Now scan the land with the spot meter to verify your highlights/shadows are going to fall where you want. It's super-fast, super easy. And once you know your highlights and shadows are where you want them, as the light changes, just take another incident reading and update your camera settings. You don't even need to check spot readings again as you've verified where they will fall. It's so fast. Things do get crazy when the light is changing fast. But you've got the best light meter ever made for landscape photography. Both spot and incident. Learn to trust both functions.

[@BenHorne]

That feature sounds very useful, and it would be nice to have on the Sekonic. With my meter, when I switch from incident to spot metering mode, the memory doesn't transfer, and all the settings are from when the meter was last in spot metering mode. I'm not quite sure why it was designed that way, but thankfully a gray card can help in those situations.

[@lotus30com]

@@BenHorne Hi Ben - thanks for the reply! It looks like you're using a L-758DR. It should be able to do it. Take an incident reading, put it into memory, then press the "MID.TONE" button. That's now your base meter reading. Then turn the dial on the lens to Spot metering, and take a highlight reading and put that into memory, then the same for a shadow. Then the analog display along the bottom of the LCD will show here those spot reading fall relative to the incident. Check out this video at 18:29 - kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2KqpHqchcqCmZY

[@lotus30com]

@@BenHorne Just checking you saw my reply below - the L-758DR can make comparisons between incident and ambient.

[@lhuhnphotography]

Thanks Ben! Between this video and your older video about metering, I have learned a lot. I would love to see more instructional videos like this, especially since you can’t get out on location right now. Stay safe!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks for watching Larry!

[@BryanDorr]

I enjoy your takeaway and tips video. A little photography inspiration one can do around the house or yard during the isolation downtime. Stay safe and be well, Ben.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Bryan!

[@robertwhitemoto]

Ben Y'all be safe. We had to postpone my daughter's wedding, and she was laid-off from her job in the service sector due to our friend Mr. 19. Anyway, thanks for the education today. Always a great break to watch your vids.

[@BenHorne]

Ouch!!! That is a major bummer about having to postpone your daughter's wedding and losing her job. These are indeed some very tough times, and I'm looking forward to when this is all behind us and we can get back to some degree of normal. Thanks as always for watching and commenting Robert!

[@404_pagenotfound7]

I found that if you have a really bright light source and use camera to digitalize your slide film, you can actually underexpose by half a stop without losing too many shadow details. (I use velvia 50 and did hdr in photoshop)

[@BenHorne]

That's one of the nice things about using a camera to digitize the film. It give a lot of flexibility for working with the files. So glad to hear that is working well for you!

[@AliKabas]

Thanks for the video. It reminded me how accurate I had to measure when I used to shoot slide film.

[@BenHorne]

That's definitely part of the process with slides. Accuracy is the the best policy, but it sure is magical looking at those slides on a light box.

[@Tbarlow99]

0:18 "a month". Greetings from 2021! haha

[@BenHorne]

Kinda crazy huh? Let's hope this all gets wrapped up later this year. 🤞 Thanks for watching Thomas!

[@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio]

If you don't have valid shadows, you can meter the highlights, treat them as Zone X, and then drop down 5 stops to get middle gray/Zone V. I haven't been out in the field for a long while due to chronic illness, but I never did averaging. I just spot metered with a gray card or just decided what I wanted to be middle gray and spot metered that.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Michael! The metering for this scene was complicated a bit by the use of the grad filter, but I'm glad the technique of working with the gray card did the trick. In general, the averaging technique has worked very well for me since it doesn't depend on having a neutral subject, but I think using the gray card alongside the averaging of highlights and shadows will likely give me the most accurate results.

[@BillMcCarroll]

Thanks for this Ben...metering is the most challenging part of my 4x5 photography. Having that grey card is really going to help.

[@BenHorne]

I think you'll like having the gray card in the field. It really helps with those tricky to meter scenes.

[@duringthemeanwhilst]

thank you for sharing your in-fleld workflow - it's fascinating. I enjoy landscape photography as it slows me down, partiularly when using grads, but I shoot digital so nowhere near the degree of complexity that LF challenges you with!

[@BenHorne]

That's certainly one of the differences between the digital and film workflow. When you work with digital, grad filters make the process easier since the camera can better meter the scene for a proper exposure, but when you work with film, those grad filters add another level of complexity to the metering process. It sure is great when everything turns out though!

[@terrybailey2015]

Love your work and your videos. Was very sorry to hear about your issues. (the images you showed however didn't appear nearly as bad as you made them out to be) As someone just getting into large format, the process is so much more slow and in those times of fleeting light, it really can have an impact on your exposure. Using a gray card is a good solution when you're photographing nearby items, but when the items are a ways away I'm not sure how well it can work and work to get you the proper exposure. I used to average as well, but recently took Nick Carver's class on metering, which seems to work very well and much better than averaging, can be quite quick and it doesn't require a bright or dark spot when they're difficult to obtain in your scene. I'd give an outline of the process, but that would be a bit of an underhanded move, so I'd just recommend people may want to look into that lesson from him and the metering method. It's somewhat related to the zone metering method used by the maestro.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks for watching and commenting Terry! For far away subjects, I find that the averaging works very well. I've encountered very few scenes that don't have good highlight and shadow areas to sample from. There are some other methods as well including dialing a bias into the meter and metering certain areas of brightness, but after 11 years or so, this was the first scene where my usual method of averaging important areas of shadow and highlights fell apart. Of course it had to be the one that was also the most time sensitive. 😂

[@DonKittle]

I really like the greycard idea, thanks for that one!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Don! It sure is handy to have in the field. It sped up my process quite a bit.

[@davidpearce2981]

You and your family stay safe Ben

[@BenHorne]

Thanks David! My wife and I are very much homebodies so we're weathering the storm quite well, but it is a bit frustrating not being able to get fresh produce. We're trying to avoid making a grocery store run with all this madness. I hope you're doing well also David!

[@Canadiansasquatchbrewery]

Great video and information as always Ben! Cheers!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks so much!

[@nickmclaren3898]

When I started L.F. in 2005, I also did averaging with a Sekonic meter and often found it too confusing and slow for working out my exposure and which grad to use. I bought a Minolta Flash Meter VI - only available second-hand now or a Kenko KFM-2100 is identical - after hearing about its 'Lattitude' function. You can set a maximum for highlight and a minimum for shadows for your chosen film stock, e.g. for Velvia I have the H value set to +1.3 or change to +1 depending on how I want to place it and shadows at -1.7. For the photograph in your video and with the meter set to H mode I would meter off that brightest area of reflected water set to +1.3 then press the S/A/H button and Lattitude and it would tell me in + or - how much brighter or darker everything else is in the scene, but at this stage I'm only checking that nothing in the foreground will be too dark so if it comes back -2 I know I'll only just have detail, but -1.7 gives me room. Then I'll meter the brightest part of the sky and it may say +4.5, I want my sky to be +1.5 above mid, but brighter than the reflection so +4.5 - 1.5 = 3 so I need a 3 stop grad to hold detail in the sky. If it read something like +4.8 I'd round that up to 5 and correct any minor brightness discrepancies in post, much easier working in halfs for grads. Writing it obviously sounds more confusing and time-consuming than it actually is. The + and - symbols are only in the spot viewfinder, the display has the f no. and shutter speed that can be changed in 1/3 stop increments. It made a really huge difference to me as I no longer had to juggle f stops or shutter speeds in my mind. Also, if using a polariser (or other filter) you can set the meter to -2 from the word go and not have to calculate taking off 2 stops from your reading. I have forgotten to reset that a couple of times afterwards, but you learn by your mistakes. I would highly recommend that meter to anyone starting out. I felt and saw your panic and doubt in the video, but this story might make you feel better or even give you a laugh because these things can happen to all of us no matter how experienced we are. I went out one morning in the dark for a sunrise having not been out for a while and was a bit out of practise. I was faced with a scene that I just couldn't work out how to meter (lots of bright areas and reflections) with the best colour and clouds I'd seen for ages happening right in front of me and completely missed the moment and just melted. I also couldn't understand why the composition on the ground glass wasn't matching what I'd seen through my viewer. Turned out that in the darkness and the hurry I'd grabbed my 150mm instead of my 110mm! Went home pretty dejected that morning knowing what I'd missed and without exposing any film. Looking forward to receiving your book! Stay safe. www.ffordes.com/p/SH-18-029611/meters-ambientflash/kfm-2100-light-meter

[@lotus30com]

Isn't the Flash Meter VI amazing, Nick!! I love mine! Take an incident OR spot, press Memory, then Latitude, and then make comparisons! It's so fast and easy!

[@Disco_Shrew]

This comment was very helpful!

[@BenHorne]

That sounds like a fantastic meter! It really takes away much of the juggling and number crunching. Thank you also for sharing the story. That sure must have been frustrating, and I can definitely relate. That's one of the reasons why I have resorted to leaving my camera in place overnight for certain photos. It is a heck of a lot easier to only juggle the exposure in the morning rather than exposure, composition, focus, etc... all while in the dark. Thanks again Nick!

[@nickmclaren3898]

@@lotus30com Yes, it's great. Couldn't do without it now. All the best!

[@larrylindell1027]

Very helpful video. Thanks. I need to look into getting a grey card. I mistakenly thought using grey cards was for getting color balance right. I see now it can make metering easier. As always I appreciate you videos and thoughts. Keep up the good work and stay covid free.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Larry! Yup, gray cards were originally for exposure, but when the world switched to digital, they were adapted for white balance. I'm a big fan of the Lastolite gray card shown in the video. It folds down quite small, and is a great size to have in the field.

[@misterjt961]

I love hearing your though process on these photos. You should also do audiobooks or podcasts, good voice

[@BenHorne]

Thanks! I've definitely thought about doing a podcast at some point. Maybe next year. We'll see. :-)

[@MatthewSaville]

I remember the day like it was yesterday. Winter 2008. I had bought a fancy new DSLR, (well, it was my fourth DSLR, but this one, the Nikon D300, was the first "fancy" one) and on a trip to Yosemite, or I should say afterwards when I got my images into ACR, ...I realized that when shooting RAW, I no longer needed to worry about exposing for bright sun or deep shade; I could expose for the highlights and not worry about the shadows. Back then, since I was still shooting Velvia regularly, it seemed insane to be able to capture sunlight and shade in a single exposure. Now, I totally take it for granted, in fact I only complain if I can't expose a firey sunset with the sun still in the frame, and a dark shadowy foreground, in the same exposure. (Shooting timelapse, bracketing isn't really an option...) I still love shooting film, but gosh the range of photographable subjects sure is limited. I think that's a very good thing, though, because they are often the subjects that present truly beautiful, serene imagery which often get overlooked by the social media champions who spend all their time chasing those images that, well, sem to just "shout at you" rather loudly, which isn't necessarily something you want to have hanging on your wall 24/7. So, keep up the good work. If this current global situation is what officially marks you making 100% of your income through your landscape work, then you might need a new "hobby". Maybe give the Canon EOS R5 a try when it comes out, and start doing 8K nature videos and timelapse work in your "spare time"??? :-D

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Matthew! Very good point about the images that shout at you these days. I think a lot of that has to do with trying to capture peoples attention while scrolling through tiny thumbnails on a phone, combined with the technology that lowers the bar for those tricky sort of scenes. Just like you mentioned though, those over-the-top scenes rarely look great when printed large. Also, you're very right about 100% of my income coming from photography right now. This is a very busy time for me anyway and I have plenty of projects to keep me busy, but it does sound slightly amusing to say I decided to become a full time landscape photographer during a worldwide pandemic. That's some great decision making there. 😂

HI there, Ben! I've also felt that struggle of fleeing light and not being able to get the metering right... or just not feeling the confidence on the calculations one is mentally making... The worst is that when that state of mind gets you there's no easy way out. You start panicking while seeing the light changing, that the only one shot you've prepared for the whole day is going to f---k... Never considered using a grey card for landscape photography, I'll reach for on when this crazy covid thing fades out... Really makes sense using that instead of the white thing the meter has. Usually for my metering , I use both my phone and a spot meter. When I have time to spare I usually do the calculations by looking at the phone's histogram and go checking with the spot meter..., but when I have less time I just point the meter at the brightest thing and place it to +2 or +2.5, shoot and then try to get the second one better. If there is no second one well, at least i've had one... Also, when I realize that light is changing fast (but i've managed not to panic on it), I dial in a lower or higher exposure (sunrise or sunset) and just make readings against the same spot until the light matches my camera settings. This is a more zen-like experience. Also, for slides I only use Provia. I love the colours better and has a bit more dynamic range than velvia, this extra dynamic range gives a bit more freedom in the small latitude that slide film has... Also I always go outside with a Ektar filmholder for when I absolutely panic and I'll just shamefully abuse the latitude of negative film and stay safe... It is to bear in mind that I shoot 4x5 and I do the developing of my E6 and B&W... so my costs are much much smaller and I can carry around many more film holders stuffed in the backpack... Cheers from Spain, take care with the Covid, it is a very serious thing.... here in europe it is very horrid... Stay safe!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Santiago! Those are some excellent points about metering off the highlights, and also how you handle the sunrise/sunset exposures. Provia has also become my favorite slide film. There are some times in reflected light that Velvia will do a bit better, but generally I find I can make Provia look a bit like Velvia in photoshop if need be, and it has much better latitude when scanning.

[@MichaelWellman1955]

Love hearing your thought process and explanation. I understand OCD and trying to shoot at your optimal F-stop to avoid diffraction but 1/3-2/3 over your ideal F-stop I think you are splitting hairs especially with an 8x10 film.

[@BenHorne]

In that case, 1/3 of a stop isn't too bad, but I have some old photos that were taken at f/64 that are pretty bad with diffraction, and I feel like f/45 is already pushing the limits in that sense. Thanks as always for watching and commenting Michael!

[@Daniel-Duarte]

I'm surprised you use that meter... I figured you'd have a Pentax Digital Spot with a zone scale slapped on top. Also, Ben... shoot some black and white =)

[@BenHorne]

I really should have a backup meter just in case, and I was thinking about buying one of the Pentax meters so I could learn how to use that system as well. With regard to B&W, I really need to buy a jobo to process the film. I keep putting that off... but it'll happen someday.

[@Daniel-Duarte]

@@BenHorne eh, you don't need a JOBO. Weston didn't have one. Trays work just fine or the new Steerman 810 Tank.

[@jasonlamarking]

I know this is an old video and I appreciate you found a good solution but just set your Sekonic to show whole stops only and use the tenths scale to figure thirds on your aperture.

[@BenHorne]

That's an interesting approach and quite honestly I hadn't thought of it. I'll have to play with it and see how it goes. Using the ND filter has worked like a champ over the past few years now, but having another tool in my kit is always a good thing.

[@CamBlakePhotography]

Certainly is crazy times we live in. Here in Tasmania (Aust) we are completely in lock down now... so time to edit, clean gear and maybe start making some more vids. Stay safe over there mate and thank God for your videos.. might have to re-watch some older episodes. 👍🇦🇺

[@BenHorne]

Thanks as always Cam! It is pretty crazy how things have progressed, though hopefully this will all be behind us soon.

[@dmitrybelyakov]

Really enjoyed this one, Ben, thanks!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks so much Dmitry!

[@DanDill]

Great teaching. Thank you.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Dan! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@ucevrim]

it's frusturating to meter with these complicated electronic meters. That's why I only use Pentax VI.

[@MichaelWellman1955]

Agree 100%

[@terrywbreedlove]

I use the latest Sekonic meter and it is full of tools but at the same time you can make it as simple as any of the older ones. You don't have to use everything it does.

[@BenHorne]

I now have a Pentax meter as well as a backup, and for the times when it might be a bit easier to use. I will say that the Sekonic meters make it pretty easy to deal with bellows extension, filters, etc.

[@ucevrim]

Ben Horne reciprocity timer help tells you all that.

[@arildedvardbasmo490]

I'm glad it worked out for you and that you learned something (and that you share it with us). I do wonder how much defraction (loss in sharpness) you will see on a 8x10 sheet of film from 1/3 or 2/3 stop aperture difference. I've never tested myself, but googling a bit, the internet seems to imply that it doesn't matter a whole lot unless you print 10-feet pictures. Regarding the grey card, I will probably be getting one, though as I see it, it would work more like doing an incident metering than a spot metering. The purpose of spot metering to me, is to evaluate the actual scene and to prioritize darks or lights - metering a grey card you put your exposure smack bang in the middle and prey you have enough latitude on your film. That said, with shifting light like this, metering quickly enough is hard... Almost to the point where I would have used a digital camera to meter.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Arild! I definitely agree that a third of a stop beyond my desired aperture likely isn't to affect diffraction much, but I have taken some photos at f/64 that I wasn't terribly satisfied with the sharpness of, but I also know there might have been some other factors at play. I also agree that in many cases, spot metering off a gray card is quite similar to taking an incident meter reading, but the advantage of this technique is that you can very quickly throw that reading into memory, hit the average button, then look through the scene with your spot meter and see how bright/dark each subject is relative to the reading. With the incident meter, you will get a setting, but you don't have the ability to quickly verify how bright/dark each subject will be.

[@SamJessop]

Very much enjoyed this video, or at least your path through frustrations to a useful solution. I have only ever used 35mm, but even so found slide to be massively frustrating ninety-nine percent of the time. The one percent made it worthwhile. Returning to film again after over ten years, the trends feel very different. I have been meaning to ask whether you shoot anything more forgiving, for example Portra 160?

[@BenHorne]

Hi Samuel! I can definitely relate to that sense of frustration. I work with color neg film when dealing with a very high contrast situations that are beyond what slide film can handle. Color neg film handles those scenes well, but it doesn't handle low contrast scenes very well. Although I could have used color neg film for the photo I shared in this video, I very much prefer to work with slide film whenever possible. I love looking at a transparency on a light table with a loupe. Also, slide film has a different look to the grain which I prefer in print. Thanks for watching and commenting Samuel!

[@SamJessop]

@@BenHorne thanks for the response. I enjoy your work because it is so different to what I would shoot. There is a print of a salt flats detail I eventually want to buy from you, and slide is absolutely perfect for that subject.

[@mrsusan893]

Ben I was wondering how shadow recovery behaves in large format photography. As you and everyone is well aware of, bringing back the shadows when shooting digital is no problem, even with your protecting the highlights and end up under exposing the foreground by a stop or 2, the file handles the shadow recovery perry decently. I would have thought that having such a large negative, you wouldn't have any issues with an underexposed photo.

[@BenHorne]

That's a very good question. The ability to recover shadow detail is something very unique to shooting RAW with a digital camera. When shooting film, shadow recovery simply doesn't exist. There is no detail hidden within the shadows to pull from. Let's take for example slide film. You have a hard limit at about 2 stops below neutral where your shadows will not hold any useful detail. You have the same limit for the highlights. Anything brighter than 2 stops above your base exposure will also lack detail. However, with slide film, the highlights are more graceful than with digital. Overall you have around 5 stops of dynamic range with slide film, which is why you need to be nearly perfect with your exposure. If you don't thread that needle, you've got a problem. Perhaps that helps to explain why I was so frustrated that evening. Color negative film is even more difficult when it comes to shadow detail. Anything darker than about 1.5 stops less than neutral will lack detail. It gets really muddy and ugly. However....... color negative film has an absolutely amazing ability to capture highlight detail. You won't have any difficulty capturing detail in highlights that are 5 or 6 stops brighter than neutral. In that sense, it's just like shooting RAW on a digital camera, but with reversed performance of shadows and highlights. When it comes to the limited dynamic range of slide film. It sure must sound limiting by the standards of today's digital cameras. However, there is a huge plus to it. So long as you are working with a subject where 5 stops of latitude is sufficient, the beauty of slide film is that you will spend next to no time processing the file on the computer. The image is captured with the same tonal range necessary for a good print. Often times I just have to do a tweak of the curves and make some tweaks for color, and that's it. When you have a massive dynamic range with a RAW file, it is definitely more forgiving for exposure, but you will also need to do a lot of work to that file to bring it back to some form of reality for print.

[@mrsusan893]

@@BenHorne Thanks for the detailed explanation Ben. I understand now why it's so important to have a very precise exposure reading and how frantic the process can potentially be when the scene is tricky to read, then add on top of that the fleeting light, and of course the cost of each negative.

[@terrygoyan]

I used to shoot Fuji Velvia 35 mm slide film and also worked hard to get just the right exposure. Now shooting digital, I must admit, I get very lazy with exposure. It's so easy to check the screen for blown high lights. The desert histograms are different then anywhere else I shoot. The Mojave and Death Valley are two of my favorite places and I go to both every year. Just a question here. I saw your explanation of sunny 16 rule to another commenter. I don't believe you made any mention of reciprocity failure. At f/45 and long exposures is this a problem? Do you get any color shifting? I ask because I remember that being a problem when I was photographing mushrooms in low light. Much respect to Large format shooters!

[@BenHorne]

Hi Terry! I honestly haven't noticed any color shifts with longer exposures on Velvia. I've heard people talk about it, but I've never noticed anything in the real world. I'm definitely very careful to compensate with extra time for exposures when needed though. I carry in the field a notebook that has a reciprocity failure compensation chart. Velvia needs compensation at 4 seconds, but Provia can take some pretty long exposures before it needs anything.

[@joshuarhea1648]

Going to have to pick up a gray card. I struggle at metering sometimes

[@BenHorne]

It really is a game changer. I used it for the rest of this trip, and it gave me some fantastic results, especially with some rather challenging scenes in Zion.

[@dmitrybelyakov]

there's a nice one that's the size of a credit card so you can put in your wallet

[@stuartbaines2843]

My old Sekonic spot meter has a ten stop readout which i tended to use as needed Adjusting F stop in thirds. I have the meter in pieces at the moment because a Capacitor failed in it 😕

[@BenHorne]

Which Sekonic meter was that?

[@stuartbaines2843]

Ben the spot meter is the dual spot L-778 meant to say Tenth stops readout. I hope to fix it because i really like using it .

[@henrymc5733]

Noticed that you placed the grey card at the base of the tripod, is that sufficiently in the scene to account for the light of a more distant landscape shot? Thanks, always enjoy your story telling.

[@BenHorne]

Hi Henry! The technique with the gray card will only work for distant subjects if both are in the exact same light - which isn't all that common for moments of sunrise/sunset light. In the case of this example, I was using a grad filter to tame the bright sky, so I was only really concerned with metering for the foreground. If I was shooting a more distant subject and the light falling on the subject is different than where I am with my camera, the gray card technique definitely wouldn't work well.

[@henrymc5733]

@@BenHorne thank you for the clarification and the lesson, always good to be able to sit at the master's feet.

[@ScottWalton]

Thanks Ben, super helpful video as expected! *One of the best things about this video: made me dig out my Sekonic manual to make sure I know how to access some of the finer points properly (still checking for the exposure compensation you mentioned..) *Scariest thing about this video: Ben places a grad filter without even looking through the camera. That's some crazy Ninja Jedi LF skillz right there. But it worked, can't see the transition zone at all, so Great Job!

[@BenHorne]

Thanks Scott! I think that's one of the reasons why I have gravitated toward soft grads lately. It's pretty much the shotgun approach to grad filters. Just so long as you're close, you'll be fine. If you don't use a lot of front rise/fall, then you can guess pretty good at the placement of the filter based on appearance alone.

[@actionimagesphotography]

At f36 I don't really think there would be much difference between that and f45 for depth of field as long as your focus is 1/3 of the way into your scene. The doubt was in your head, I know because I've been in that position of doubt. What I thought was interesting was in the original video you questioned whether you should be shooting film at all. That is doubt my friend. Been there, done that!

[@BenHorne]

The tricky part with front tilt is that if you don't stop down the right amount, you might miss focus in the midground. The plane of focus is now angled from the foreground to the mountains, and as you stop down, some of the plane of focus expands up, and the other part expands down into a wedge. The trick is to have the bottom plane of the wedge cover the ground plane, and the top part cover the mountains. In this case, the very large mountain that exits the right of the frame is actually a bit soft at the top of the mountain because it's not within the wedge depth of field. The ground plane is though. The less I stop down, the narrower the wedge, and I have to start sacrificing more of the mountains to get the ground plane sharp. Though the years, I've learned that f/45 is just enough to get what I need in focus, and opening up more makes it a bit more difficult. I've taken photos at f/64 and seen some very noticeable diffraction, so that's why I also don't like to stray all that far from f/45. The real test is when you have your film scanned at very high resolution. You'll see every flaw, which is a great learning experience.

[@SpecialTeams47]

What about taking an incident light reading, considering the foreground was a few steps away, and close enough to place your grey card upon?

[@BenHorne]

The issue I have with incident readings is that I can't verify how bright or dark each subject will be at that setting. It's important to know if each subject is within the range of what the film an do. By spot metering a gray card, I can then log that setting into memory, average it, then look through the spot meter and see exactly how bright and dark each subject is. I've been burned by incident meter readings in the past. The resulting meter reading should be quite similar to using an incident meter, but the ability to verify that meter reading with the spot meter is the difference. I can also meter the gray card at slightly different angles to get a different reading if I don't like what I see. On this evening, I spot metered the gray card, logged it into memory, pressed the average button, then quickly evaluated the scene and saw it was within the range of the film, then I went ahead and made the exposure.

[@SpecialTeams47]

@@BenHorne I see, you log the grey card reading, then take spot readings of the various subjects in the foreground, to see where they fall. Curious: how different was the total average vs. the initial spot off the grey card alone?

[@angryanimaldoc]

Would it have helped to use the color neg in this scenario?

[@BenHorne]

Definitely! It would have helped tremendously with the exposure, and I wouldn't have even needed a grad filter. That being said, I very much prefer the workflow of working with slide film. It's easier to scan and work with on the computer.

[@The_Mister]

Great metering advice. I plan on getting into large format in the next year or so and I’m just trying to learn as much as I can until then. Your channel is really great for demystifying large format.

[@mypixelchrome]

Why is DOF such an issue? You have full tilt movement with your 8x10. Do you not use this ? I realize that using tilt alters the plane of the DOF, but hopefully the f/45 will take care of that.

[@BenHorne]

Good question! Since 8x10 film is so large, and the lenses have such a long focal length, the DOF is insanely narrow. Even when stopped down to f/45, there is very little DOF. Movements such as front tilt become necessary to get as much in focus as possible, but it still doesn't give quite enough in focus at times. If you take a look at the photo I shot in the first Episode, I have a good ground plane to work with, but I also have a towering mountain on the right side. When I use front tilt, the focus plane can drop and follow the ground plane, but keep in mind that the mountains are above the ground plane, and would actually be out of focus. With large format, once you start stopping down, the depth of field enlarges, and if you use front tilt, it expands into a wedge. For this scene, I have the plane of focus starting at the foreground, then angling up to the distant mountains on the left/middle part of the comp. I then stop the lens down to f/45, the plane of focus expands into a wedge, and the lower portion of the wedge now captures the ground plane. However, the area above that wedge (mountains on the right) will never have critical focus. So in short, even with front tilt and stopping down, I still have to make decisions. In this case, I sacrificed sharpness at the top of the mountains on the right to make sure the ground plane and the important mountains would be sharp. If I has opened up more, chances are I might not be able to get the ground plane. This is also why I like to have an hour or so to ponder these decisions when setting up a composition.

[@mypixelchrome]

Good explanation. At the end of the day, especially when you have such a dominant foreground, how sharp does the background have to be? I like the term “acceptably sharp”.

[@deltadave44]

could you please explain how the "sunny 16" rule doesn't seem to work when shooting large format...I shoot medium format film and I never get a meter reading of f/45...I can't figure out why there is this difference...thanks...

[@BenHorne]

The Sunny 16 rule is a general rule of thumb for exposing film in bright sunlight. It falls apart a bit with slide film since slide film is especially particular with it comes to exposure, and general rules of thumb like this don't take into consideration all the subtle changes in light. It would be fine for B&W or color negative film. According to the sunny 16 rule, your ISO equals your shutter speed when shooting in full sunlight at f/16. If you are using a 100 ISO film, then a shutter speed of roughly 1/100 second (1/125 is the closest in most cases) will give you a good exposure in full sunlight at f/16. This doesn't mean that you NEED to shoot at f/16. There are many times that f/16 simply isn't the appropriate aperture for the amount of DOF you want. Let's say you want to shoot at f/8. In that case, you are letting in 2 stops more light, so you need to compensate by limiting 2 stops with the other settings. In that case, perhaps bumping the shutter speed to 1/500s. In my case, shooting a photo at f/16 would be an extremely narrow DOF that isn't well suited for landscapes. Keep in mind that 8x10 film is much larger, so the DOF is going to be far more shallow. That's why I shoot at f/45 for most scenes. It gives me more DOF for landscape photos, but I would not recommend shooting f/45 on a medium format or 35mm camera. You'll have so much diffraction that it will give a very soft image.

[@kannibaal]

Hi Ben. Thank you for the useful video! One question I had was how measuring the grey card compares to doing an incident light meter reading. You mentioned being able to validate the reading by measuring other parts of the seen after measuring the grey card. Could the same be achieved by using an incident meter reading and comparing that with spot meter readings throughout the scene?

[@kannibaal]

I read some more of your answers and if I understand you correctly the biggest difference in the ease of use of setting the grey card reading as the average and then comparing the scene to that reading. The light meter probably doesn't allow you to set the incident meter as the "average" spot meter reading to which you want to compare the other spot meter readings.

[@BenHorne]

Good question! On the Sekonic spot meter I use, the Incident mode and the Spot mode are different. Memory settings are not carried over from one to the other, and even things like ISO, compensation, etc are not carried over from one mode to the other. It would be nice if you could use the incident meter, then carry those settings over to spot mode, and verify how bright and dark the areas are. I'm sure there is a reason for it, but it sure would be nice.

[@kannibaal]

@@BenHorne Thanks! Perhaps with the current design it's easier to do two entirely separate readings (with different settings) and compare their output. Who knows :)

[@QuarkCharmed]

Interesting. Isn't it possible to compensate +- half a stop after scanning the film? Is there a room for compensation in postprocessing? (just comparing it to digital where you can usually adjust the exposure +-2 stops easily, if the highlights aren't blown).

[@BenHorne]

In terms of exposure, shooting slide film is a bit like shooting jpeg mode with a digital camera. There is a very small amount of wiggle room, but for the most part, you need to be right on the money with your exposure. Both the shadows and the highlights need to be within the limited dynamic range of the film. I was able to get everything I needed from the sheet of film shown in this video, but I definitely had to massage the file a bit to get there. If I was even a third of a stop brighter, the highlights would have been gone.

[@QuarkCharmed]

@@BenHorne Thank you for the explanation! I suspected that but didn't know there's such a little room. Absolutely beautiful image by the way.

[@kevins8575]

Wow, I'm glad I shoot digital - not enough patience!

[@BenHorne]

It sure does take a whole different workflow with film, but the great thing is that the photos don't require a lot of processing on the computer like with digital. The decisions are made at the moment of shooting the photo.

[@thdcinema]

In short, use a grey card.

[@BenHorne]

And a 3 stop ND. :-)

[@markrigg6623]

If you use large format film its because you get off on frustration, surely?

[@BenHorne]

When everything turns out, those slides sure are amazing to view with a loupe. :-)

[@JohnTomasella]

The metering is one of the things I enjoy about large format. Though my black and white photography has much more leeway than your slide film.

[@BenHorne]

There is definitely more leeway with black and white, though you have many more things to juggle with regard to processing time, etc than I do with color. I think there's a lot more skill involved with B&W, though color slide seems to have a narrower bottleneck at the moment of exposure.

[@JohnTomasella]

@@BenHorne I think the hardest part of black and white photography is finding a scene that looks good in black and white. I do all my own developing and print in the darkroom. I do have some exposed Ektar in the fridge that I still need to get around ordering a C-41 kit for.

[@davidfearn8635]

This was a really interesting video, Ben. Here are some thoughts I have (in case anyone is interested!!) I've tended to do a mixture of both averaged metering and specific value metering with the Sekonic - with the latter, dialling in some compensation for the value I want to place a colour value or tone at (esp. important/useful for B&W and neg film too); I think the important point here is what I want the value to be, and then to ensure, with filters if necessary, that all other values fit within the latitude of the film stock. For slide this latter method works much faster in changing light and with grads than averaging. This is especially the case in the UK where overhead conditions can change so fast: metering the foreground first is essential; some half-stop grads are also good to have. Richard Childs has a really good short blog post about this, in case others might find it useful: www.richardchildsphotography.co.uk/2011/12/spot-metering-for-expressive-exposure/ At least in the UK we don't generally have to deal with light that is so bright that even with 8x10 we have problems with full-stop shutter speeds!! I guess, though, that I strive to work by the ground glass. If it's sharp on the glass where it needs to be, then the f/stop I've moved to while under the dark cloth is sufficient. Richard and Tim Parkin really helped me figure this out! On 8x10 it might be f/45 but might not be - often it's rather less than I was expecting, but it depends on the shape of the scene. Re. f/stops, it's also perhaps worth saying that lenses like Nikkor-Ms that go out as far as f/128 seem a bit happier going out to higher values than lenses that go out to only f/64 such as the Nikkor-Ws (I think this is a point that Dykinga makes in his LF book). On 5x4 I've only gone beyond f/32 a couple of times, with the Nikkor M 300, going to f/64 and f/90 without too much trouble, where I did need really good depth of field with a subject with verticals where tilt wouldn't have worked. Some argue that Pentax meters are much easier to use, but I've never been unhappy with the Sekonic as long as I understand how it works.

[@BenHorne]

Thanks so much for all the great info David! I suppose one of the things I would love on the Sekonic is a way to dial in compensation to meter for the highlights for example, then the ability to look through the meter with that setting and see how truly bright or dark each subject is while using that setting. I love being able to see those numbers for peace of mind. With the Sekonic meters, there is really one method or the other to meter with, but it would be great to have a method to have the best of both worlds. Perhaps there is a way, but I haven't found it yet.

[@davidfearn8635]

@@BenHorne Cheers for the reply Ben. Yes, for that the Pentax wins for speed. But it's not too much trouble to dial in e.g. +1.5 comp on the Sekonic for a foreground highlight as the exposure to go with and then metre the darkest part of the sky to figure out the grad required to reach back down to the original exposure indicated. You just have to basically metre twice for the two different parts of the scene. But in changing light I guess you have to keep metering the sky anyhow.

[@darrenwall5439]

Ah filters... 😃

[@BenHorne]

Sometimes it's the small things that make a big difference. :-)