My First Sodium Ion Battery

A 4-cell (4S) sodium ion battery using 33140 cells from www.evpromax.com
Fitting a battery management system (BMS) from www.aliexpress.com/item/10050...
The chip on the BMS is from BYD www.datasheet-pdf.com/PDF/BM34...

[@johnwalton5576]

Love your spot welder Julian! Way better than many of the homemade monstrosities I have seen on KZbin. Yours looks quite safe, and something that instills confidence.

[@alaricsnellpym]

It might be wise to check the cells with a multimeter, just to see if the BMS is on the money

[@andymouse]

I need to learn a lot more about different chemistry's and BMS modules so will check out your back catalogue on this stuff...cheers.

[@KrzysztofCygan]

I got my first JK Smart BMS with 2A active balancer built-in just weeks ago and it's been amazing, planning to get another one for my second battery.

[@honumoorea873]

I got one of the first jkbms (was not called like that at this time but called jikong bms) and it has work flawlessly on my 14kWh pack for 3 years. I bought a second one last 8 month ago, it's even better, easier to start and use.

[@diyelectrified1289]

I know in your video you said you're focused on a low-cost BMS but I recommend getting a JK BMS because in the settings you can tailor it to sodium ion. Even though it's more expensive, I think it's worth it. Plus having the smart BMS feature, you could detail in your videos, the settings and proper operation of sodium ion. It's what I'm going to use on my pack if I ever get it finished lol.

[@Richardincancale]

Can you open up one of the sodium ion cells and give it a taste test to see if it is really sodium and not lithium?

[@ShafaqIftikhar-pw9ld]

Careful if it is lithium it may bring about a firey taste lol

[@davey2k12]

Someone on tube gotta of done it already 😂

[@michaeloxlong]

​@@ShafaqIftikhar-pw9ldthe spicier it is, the higher the voltage.

[@user-sd3ik9rt6d]

Don't forget your explosion containment pie dish.

[@christopherleubner6633]

Well they taste pretty good on chips, but lithium helps to keep me sane.😂

[@jimthvac100]

It is going to take a very special inverter to be able to use 8 to 16 volts. I am sure it wont take long before they are selling a BMS to work with these sodium ion batteries.

[@BenMitro]

I hope the sodium ion bms that do appear also manage the output voltage through some kind of buck/boost circuitry to maintain a constant output.

[@eDoc2020]

@@BenMitro I hope the BMS _don't_ have a buck/boost circuit. That is a very different and separate task. Add an extra converter if your application needs it.

[@BenMitro]

@@eDoc2020 The BMS already has the power stage to handle buck/boost so it makes functional and economic sense to combine the two functions. Why do you not think so?

[@eDoc2020]

@@BenMitro I haven't seen a BMS with the needed power stages. Normally they just have MOSFETs one one end of the pack to switch the power on and off. To convert voltages bidirectionally you need MOSFETs on both rails, inductors, and capacitors. That's a lot more components. Also the MOSFETs need to quickly switch which requires different parts and specialized drive chips. Even if the power stages were already there in a BMS it's wise to keep safety critical parts separate. Catastrophic failures in switching power supplies are very common if _anything_ goes wrong. I don't want a dead electrolytic capacitor to cause a battery fire. Having said all that a large BMS has many functions. Noncritical functions like balancing and reporting can safely be shared with other circuitry but no matter what safety shutoffs should _always_ have dedicated hardware-based implementations.

[@BenMitro]

@@eDoc2020 Let's wait and see what industry actually puts out for Sodium.

[@EsotericArctos]

Spot welder is great. For those that do not have a spot welder, you can solder if you are super careful. Mr Carlson had a video about how he solders. As long as you are quick, the heat is no worse than spot welding. So many battery technologies around these days. I look forward to seeing more experiments with the Sodium Ion batteries.

[@AlexanderBurgers]

after having soldered a 420 cell 18650 pack, the only problem with soldering I've found is if you splatter a blob of molten solder right in between the positive terminal and the rest of the case. That got exciting really quick. (the nickel strips instantly evaporated and separated the rest of the pack from the shorted cell, and the affected cell died without exploding. (the teflon ring that separates the case from the cap has partially melted away from the violent discharge and it's permanently short-circuited the cell) As far as the soldering itself, I used a 75w iron with a big tip, and the plumbers flux to pre-tin the cells (especially the case side), and once pre-tinned and the flux cleaned off, cells are pretty easy and safe to solder to. Just don't do what I did and drip a large blob of solder into the hole on the positive side of the case, that is bad.

[@realflow100]

@@AlexanderBurgers From what I know. you should always fully discharge the cells to anywhere from 0-10% charge left about 2.9 to 3v That way theres not enough energy left in them to thermally run away if they get shorted. and not enough amps to flow to burn any wires or anything when soldering them together. For a lithium ion cell. completely empty would be discharged at about 100-200mA down to 3v or maybe 2.9v There is virtually no appreciable energy left in them. and can be soldered together without too much risk if your careful and quick. and they are not harmed by being discharged fully for the time it takes to solder the pack together. You can speed up the discharging process by discharging at a higher rate. 1C to 3v. then lower the discharge rate again to 1/10C (1A for a 1AH rated cell. then 100mA) For NIMH/NICD's its childs play and it doesn't really matter as long as you dont just leave the hot iron on there or try to re-melt the solder joint after its cooled. they don't thermally runaway like lithium ion batteries.

[@hikewomeat]

An interesting property of these batteries their ability to be charged at low temperatures. This is important for outdoor use in combination with solar panels in winter. I hope that finished products will be available soon, for example, for charging such batteries from the USB.

[@marlonlacert8133]

Wow, nice Caps!

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

I'm wondering why you thought of using a Li-Ion balance circuit for charging, when using a LiFePO4 balance circuit for charging would make more sense since it would be set to cut out at 4.1V instead of 4.2V ? It's still not ideal, but until we start seeing cheap purpose-built sodium-ion balancers, it may be the best solution.

[@AWarrior-bms]

That is Sodium battery, not Li-ion.

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

@@AWarrior-bms Which I know. But since Julian is using Li-Ion cell balancers with sodium batteries, my suggestion was that he use lithium-iron-phosphate balance chargers instead, to lower the end-of-charge voltage to be more compatable with sodium.

[@JulianIlett]

The BMS is a last resort protection. The charger will be set to charge the 4S sodium ion pack to 16 volts. The balancer should ensure that no cell is over 4V.

[@Dazzwidd]

Those BMS modules would be able to be programmed to your needs but you will have to do a bit of research and find which SMD resistors need to be altered. of course you could use traditional components in place somehow and experiment by using extended connection leads

[@LittleSpot]

Oh cool. you are a sodium ion diy pioneer.🤣

[@madsskovhansen4840]

Not sure I’ve seen all your vids about this chemistry. Have you shown a charge/discharge curve? How is the cost/wh compared to lifepo4?

[@DeathbyKillerBong]

love it

[@joruss]

Wouldn't it be possible to hack the boards and adjust the resistor dividers to change voltage limits?

[@corcorandm]

One of the datasheets I saw for another vendor has the charge profile CC to 3.95V then CV until < .05A 🤷‍♂️

[@mannyfragoza9652]

From the little research ive done on SI batteries the only advantage I observed is SI out performs Lifpo4 in the freezing test. Other than that not much. I'm guessing cost also?

[@cat-cambodia1801]

Very good friend😍

[@DrHarryT]

So far what I see with sodium is the power density is low and the voltage range it too great. At the least you have to use extra cells combined with a buck converter to provide stable use.

[@RikHaanen]

Can someone tell me why lead acid batteries with 6 cells of 2v don't have a bms or banacers? And why these batteries do?

[@davey2k12]

The size of that spot welder 😂 I wanting it lol😂

[@DavidSmith-dm8ew]

How much usefull energy is there between 3 v to 4v on these cells? If not alot might as well just use a lifep04 balancer.

[@slybunda]

whats that device you used that sets custom voltage to charge the capacitors up?

[@gabe2252]

I have been wondering if a good application for these bare cells would be 6s 24-12v battery. You could run most 12v car accessories as long as they say 12-24v which most do.

[@KarrasBastomi]

for 4s, working range is 8V-16V, any car would take it happily but cannot extract full capacitu because standar car voltage would be 13,6V.

[@Dirt-Diggler]

Byd are usually better than that ? 3.85 OVP for lifepo4 is terrible 🤔

[@zzyrc842]

Hopefully the LiFePO4-BMS does not start discharging the pack at 3,5V (or so) cell voltage with its' passive balancer...

[@JulianIlett]

If there's a problem with that, I'll desolder the balance resistors from the BMS board.

[@GoatZilla]

I'd just use a regular LiFePO4 BMS which would cut it off at 2.5v, which is IMO too low for LiFePO4 anyways. Prefer more conservative LVC's.

[@stuart207]

😂 they're huge. The 18650 are only 3.5v (ish) what are the energy density differences? Would a comparable cell be bigger than 18x65mm?

[@michaelcoghlan9124]

Thank you. M

[@luc_libv_verhaegen]

Do you have access to a datasheet for all these cells?

[@Clancydaenlightened]

Now what about NaFePO4?

[@surplusdoctor]

you do realize the 8 corners are for you to place 4 steel threaded rod thru to hold together, not Zip tie!

[@JulianIlett]

Four threaded rods is unnecessary - the cells don't expand lengthways :)

[@bloepje]

So the imaginary sodium battery finally is real. As in: we know it is real, but this is the first video which shows these imaginary batteries as in bought and tested. Thanks! Maybe that's why the LiFePo4 batteries are "dropping" like crazy in prices :-).

[@matteoricci9129]

... Are you Shure they are sodium ion, cos few months ago I was trying to look for them and I couldn't find them, AliExpress and Alibaba were calling them sodium but on the specs there were lfp

[@JulianIlett]

Pretty sure :)

[@matteoricci9129]

Is there a resistor to match the charge voltage? Usually is set in the datasheet so to use only one

[@JulianIlett]

The BYD chip has different part numbers for LFP and NMC.

[@thegreenxeno9430]

What's the functional energy density?

[@jimmybrad156]

Using a lifepo4 voltage range, what percentage of the nominal sodium-ion capacity can you use? (Eg. charging the sodium-ion battery up to 14v until the current is low and then draining it down to 10v with a 1C load.)

[@JulianIlett]

Well, I'm tempted to say 50%

[@jimmybrad156]

@@JulianIlett Slightly off topic, I was looking at house batteries and came across a company in Australia that makes lithium titanite batteries. Made in China but they put a long warranty behind it. About 3000 AUD per ~2.5kwh battery. I came across it accidentally, never bothering to even see if they were available as house batteries, because I simply assumed that they would be something like $10k to $15k AUD per 2.5kwh battery. Brand is 'Zenaji'.

[@JulianIlett]

Yeah, lithium titanate is another battery chemistry worth looking at. I've seen very high cycle life (like 10,000 cycles) which might explain the long warranty. I've seen some on Aliexpress packaged like capacitors.

[@bro_leo]

Where do you buy those sodium ion battery? I want to take a look at it too.

[@33a333]

ali

[@SolarResurrection]

Alibaba is crazy, Shopping with no price. How much did you pay for them, So new were they cheaper than LifePO4, Thanks.

[@BenMitro]

I wonder if Stuart Pittaway's DIY BMS can be configured for sodium ion?

[@madsskovhansen4840]

It can, but it only monitors. Add a protection relay/breaker, for protection, and the shunt for capacity monitoring, and it gets complicated and expensive, compared to a mosfet protection BMS like JK

[@BenMitro]

@@madsskovhansen4840 Good points and thanks for answering the original question. Cheers.

[@aldogutierrez8240]

can you test termal runaway?

[@Francois_Dupont]

website link dead.

[@ModernSurvivalSense]

Your link to the batteries doesn't go to an active site

[@JulianIlett]

I've fixed that now.

[@AintBigAintClever]

A quick rummage online suggests that NaFePO4 has been dabbled with, but I'm not paying thirty quid for the paper on it :D

[@JulianIlett]

Sodium iron phosphate would be interesting - sodium manganese iron phosphate even more so :)

[@sanjikaneki6226]

what is that balanceing module?

[@williamrudge175]

Hi Julian. Please tell me the spot welder you’re using or a link to the vendor. Many thanks Bill

[@theairstig9164]

Mine is Vevor

[@JulianIlett]

It's the Kekk SuperCapacitor spot welder.

[@cxsey8587]

How do you know these are actually sodium ion?

[@jacquesb5248]

interesting!

[@BloodBlight]

What spot welder is that?

[@JulianIlett]

It's the Kekk Supercapacitor spot welder.

[@rayoflight62]

Sodium ions are gigantic in size when compared to Lithium ions. I wonder what the ion migration during charge and discharge does to the battery separator; I guess the cycle life of sodium ion batteries is inferior to that of Li-ion. On the bright side Na-Ion batteries are more stable from a thermodynamic point of view, so the calendar life and self-discharge fare much better than Li-Ion batteries.

[@Ithirahad]

Cycle life isn't strictly worse, just that for now it's a less mature tech.

[@eugy2008]

What is this a review of??? It's all over the place.

[@gopalanp9739]

Good congratulations India

[@irokpe6977]

Many hybrid inverters comes with BMS which can be customised to suit your battery chemistry. Why not seek those BMS instead of doing patch work with BMS that are not suited for sodium ions.

[@JulianIlett]

I like a challenge :)

[@ericklein5097]

It'll be interesting to see what manufacturers decide to set the cutoff voltages for Sodium Ion. Given their terrible choices with NMC/NCA and LiFePO4 (no experience with LTO) I dont have high hopes.

[@JulianIlett]

Well, I've read that sodium ion can be shipped at zero volts, and can be discharged to zero volts without risk of damage, so I think the low cutoff could be any voltage. I'm just trying to protect against pushing a cell into reverse voltage.

[@teardowndan5364]

Maybe manufacturers will wisen up and realize that with the number of different rechargeable chemistries out there, it might be a better idea to just make programmable BMS/balancers for the DIY market and let the end-user set parameters instead of stocking as many different variants as there are battery type variations for every common pack size and voltage range. Leave the hard-coded/wired chips for prefabricated battery packs. (Though even factory-made packs could benefit from their end-user setting more conservative battery limits for longer life, improved safety, etc.)

[@simcore999bernard6]

Why not probe each cell?

[@brookerobertson2951]

link is not working ?? is it just me ?

[@JulianIlett]

the evpromax.com link should take you to an Alibaba page.

[@JulianIlett]

It's an http address - https won't work.

[@georgef7754]

I get - Site can't be reached

[@gsestream]

come on, diy znso4 zinc plating metal-air battery, about 433Wh/kg, better if you use some high energy density metal, like tin plating cell, its a battery cell in a can, like steel plate can, just coat the outside with something non-corroding, like PEX plastic

[@user-qf6yt3id3w]

Someone needs to do a cheap, maybe Arduino based, programmable BMS.

[@-FOXX]

Use a li-ion charger

[@adisusanto3127]

I suppose you bro ,

[@JusticeAlways]

What is BMS???

[@kadensmith5586]

Battery management system, sorry for the late reply 😂

[@NavyDocThomas]

If it is truly Na ion, they can go down to 0.0v.

[@RikHaanen]

Does this mean you don't need a balancer for the low voltage as long as your load does not damage or switches of on time?

[@wolpumba4099]

*Summary* *Introduction and Initial Setup* - 0:00: Introduction to testing the first ever sodium-ion battery. - 0:04: Four cells are connected in series to form a nominal 12V battery pack. - 0:15: Battery pack voltage is a bit low at 10.35 volts. - 0:22: Discussing a buck-boost power supply set to output 12 volts, which will boost the current battery voltage. - 0:32: Power supply switched on, lights come on. - 0:39: Overview of the setup including sodium-ion cells, voltage monitoring, and a buck-boost power supply. - 0:56: There are two 12V strip lights, with one strip having some lights out. - 1:03: Voltage has dropped under 10 volts. *Cell Voltage Monitoring and Battery Management System (BMS)* - 1:10: The pack can go down to 8 volts (2 volts per cell) but lacks individual cell voltage monitoring. - 1:34: Importance of avoiding reverse voltage on any cell stressed. - 1:39: Need for individual cell monitoring, considering making voltmeters or getting a Battery Management System (BMS). - 2:00: No specific low-cost sodium-ion BMSs available. - 2:08: Possibility of using a LifePO4 BMS for its 2-volt cutoff feature on discharge. - 2:55: Idea to use two BMSs, one for discharge and another for charge, to prevent over-discharge and overcharge. - 3:22: The sodium-ion cells can be taken up to 4.2 volts without safety issues, slightly above their 4-volt specification. *Assembling the Battery Pack* - 3:39: Connection strategy for the BMSs described for both discharge and charge protections. - 4:26: The BMSs will serve as protection devices, with a separate battery balancer for balancing. - 4:37: A 4-cell balancer with a low standby current has been ordered. - 5:18: Although the balancer is intended for different battery chemistries, it will work with sodium-ion cells. - 5:46: Using one BMS for each function (charge/discharge) should be largely effective. - 5:56: Plans to spot weld tabs on the cells because they are currently held on by magnets. - 6:04: Current output to the strip lights measured at 1.6 amps at 12 volts. - 6:15: Current draw is probably over 2 amps, magnets holding the steel strips may not be sufficient for much more current. *Spot Welding and Board Mounting* - 6:35: Close-up look at the battery pack planned after unhooking the setup. - 7:02 - 9:54: Detailed assembly of the battery pack and preparations for spot welding. - 10:01 - 11:37: Charging and configuring the spot welder. - 11:37 - 14:38: Detailed welding process and components placement on the board. *Battery Management System (BMS) Installation and Wire Soldering* - 14:38 - 17:01: Detailed process of the BMS installation and necessary wire connections. *Final Steps of Battery Setup* - 17:01 - 17:49: Discussion on wire connections to the battery and considering the creation of a higher current wire. - 17:49 - 21:40: Details on the final stages of the battery setup, considerations for another BMS, and trial results. Disclaimer: I utilized GPT-4 to condense the video transcript into a summary. I employed Prompt 1 to generate timestamped bullet lists. I then used Prompt 2 to organize these lists into sections with titles. The summary was manually formatted using KZbin comment markup. Prompt 1: "Generate a bullet list summary, including starting timestamps for each point." Prompt 2: "Split the following bullet list into sections. Create section titles. Keep timestamps for the bullets. Use this format for titles: *title*. Keep bullets that you deem important to the story."

[@user-cd4wn1of9q]

Lithium Titanate LTO battery cell is much better. Although the charging capacity is small compared to the area, it is non-explosive and can be recharged more than 20,000 times.

[@michal7x7]

The point of sodium battery is not needing the rare metal lithium

[@najibyarzerachic]

It is too expensive per KWh..Titanium is a rare metal unlike sodium

[@BloodAsp]

I've been waiting for a sodium ion battery disruption to drop the EV prices before I buy one. Any thoughts on that? They are supposed to be safer, cheaper, and longer lasting from the hype I heard?

[@JulianIlett]

Sodium is currently more expensive than lithium, but that's because manufacture of sodium ion is on such a small scale.

[@nsglcck]

Capacity compared to lithium ion batteries is very low at this point (less than half), so don’t expect them in cars anytime soon.

[@Sopheris]

@@nsglcck there already is sodium ion car in china

[@retrozmachine1189]

Not sure how that will work in the long run. Sodium has lower energy density than NMC. In mobile applications that's a big factor. Considerable effort has to be expended getting NMCs into vehicles as it is. Cost of manufacture is often waved around as a reason. Yes sodium can be cheaper than NMC but vastly different? No. Other costs such as transporting the materials as well as the cells themselves dominate there. The sodium market is in its infancy at this point so special introductory pricing, not to mention China dumping product as usual in an attempt to corner the market, is to be expected. Let's see how it all unfolds before leaping off the cliff.

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

@@nsglcck While that's a problem, if the charge rate problem can be overcome then it will become less of a problem. What's needed is a battery technology which will allow you to bring them up to nearly full in around 5 minutes instead of 15 minutes. Once that's accomplished, range will be far less of an issue, at least for the ordinary passenger car purchased by your average driver.

[@panospapadimitriou3498]

i passed a heatsrinc tube on my rods even if they ever scratch any cell from any hit or fall .... it will be harder to penetrate and short.. but need first to pass the rod to the first holder .. some holders have just enough hole for the bare rod only!!!

[@nicod974]

❤️🥓☮️

[@fredfred2363]

Careful Julian, you'll be giving chinese manufacturers ideas about using a lipo BMS for a sodium pack. More fires...

[@TheEmbeddedHobbyist]

Bang goes your shed insurance if you charge above manufacturers specifications. 😮

[@steve64464]

Wonder if these sodium ion batteries blow up less vs lithium ions.

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

From everything I've seen so far, it appears that sodium ion batteries are far more tolerant of fault conditions than lithium ion batteries are. I presume that one would explode if you abused it in some ridiculous manner such as connecting it directly across the house mains, but nearly any electronic component would explode under those circumstances and that's not caused by any fault or weakness in the battery. The biggest problem with sodium batteries ATM seems to be that they have around half the energy density as Li-Ion, which means that lithium batteries will continue to dominate the market for the time being.

[@steve64464]

@@melkiorwiseman5234 So basically your need double the space needed to get the energy density but it seems to be showing potential 🙂

[@DavidSmith-dm8ew]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWLckpKiqJatoaM

[@Karim-ifInwUstfu702]

thats what i want to see they just keep talking about this battery and they dont show anything

[@inyoudeep1]

Not at all impressed with the sodium ion cells. Just too large for so small of power. They are not going to do well, as they seem to be a step backwards in battery tech.

[@RikHaanen]

It will depent on the price once they are in full demand. In some applications the wide voltage range is not going to be a problem and it makes it simpler to convert to state of charge (without the use of a special device that records the amps over time) and you might not care about the volume.

[@richard-df6pr]

loads of talk , is it any good

[@JulianIlett]

You decide.

[@AmigaWolf]

Were can i buy that spotwelder??