My Front End Loader Leaks Down, What Should I Do?

Had a viewer question from Jeremy. His front end loader leaks down while he's using his tractor, meaning he has to bump the joystick to raise it while he's working. It's an annoyance and a common problem. He wonders if it's going to get worse and if he needs to have it repaired before the tractor goes out of warranty.
To answer this question, I got help from Sam, who was service manager at the dealership I used to work at. He says there are only a couple of places that a loader circuit can be leaking that will allow it to come down while running. It can have a cylinder leak, or the leak could be in the loader valve. A cylinder leak will get worse and can (and should) be repaired, many times a valve leak you're stuck with.
If it's a cylinder leak, it can be external or internal. External ones are easy to spot because there'll be oil on the cylinder or on the ground. An internal cylinder leak will allow the oil to circulate through the system and let the weight of the loader to gradually push the mainframe to the ground.
An easy way to test for an internal leak is to raise the front end loader, disconnect the hydraulic lines, and watch for it to drop. If it doesn't, the problem is not in the cylinders. NOTE: this should only be tried by an experienced technician. When pressure is released, hydraulic oil can cut skin and also allow the loader frame to drop abruptly. The weight of the loader would need to be taken off before the hoses are reconnected.
If the problem is in the valve, the only fix is to replace the valve. Newer hydraulic valves don't have seals inside, they're machined to extremely close tolerances and when they fail, they're done. It's not uncommon for valves to experience a bit of leak down, so Jeremy's problem may not be something that can be resolved. If that's the case, it's also not likely to get worse.
Bottom line is, if you have an internal cylinder leak that's letting your loader drop, it can be repaired, if the valve is experiencing leak down, replacing it may make the problem better, it may not.
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[@m9ovich785]

have him remove the Rod piston packing, hoses, and reassemble, Fill the ports with Oil, Block both Cylinder ports. And lets see if can still move the Rod in or out. Due to the Displacement of the Rod has in the bore, it will not move. Cause the Rod goin in takes up space. The rod going out will create a vacuum. I'll have to make a video of this as I have Yet to find one on You Tube. Mike M.

[@ronshriver2967]

Great video. A lot of commenters didn't read the description or pay enough attention to the video. The owner is having this issue while using the tractor, not when it's parked. 6" or more of loader drop while the tractor is running would concern me a little bit on what might be needed a year or two down the road once the loader is out of warranty.

[@rogerwright1902]

Great discussion!

[@mikejohnson4617]

So why would older tractors/loaders be less likely to leak down than newer ones? Tighter tolerances/better quality control standards?

[@JohnDoe-ny1wp]

@mike johnson Simple. They don't make good tractors anymore. They are like Bic lighters compared to old school Zippos. The zippos, you add fuel and sparkle bar, Bics......toss em.

[@jmullentech]

That would be my guess. Trying to keep those profit margins

[@fhuber7507]

Seals wearing in... It takes a few hundred sliding back and forth cycles to wear in the seals. Happens with all hydraulic cylinders somewhat. 7 to 8 inches an hour is not a lot. I have a cylinder on a small backhoe that does that in seconds. Slowly getting better. This low cost (Harbor Freight) backhoe is notorious for this because of the plastic seals. I'm replacing the seals in that cylinder, because it should have worn in by now. (enough spares to replace all of the seals in the machine came with the machine. They are that bad about this issue.) Just move the system quite a bit and it should be less of an issue pretty fast.

[@rickyleblanc3945]

Probably because the older tractors used O-rings in the valves.

[@mharrye]

Damaged seal in the middle cannot cause the loader to drop. Piston end displacement per unit movement is greater than rod end displacement. If the piston moves 1 inch (4 cubic inches of oil out), that one inch movement of the rod end allows room for only 3 cubic inches. What happens to the other cubic inch? Answer - it can't happen. The pressure equalizes on each side of the piston and the cylinder is locked. Unless oil flows out of the cylinder (through rod seal or the hose) the cylinder is hydraulically locked.

[@court2379]

This leads to an interesting situation. At the speeds we are looking at, the piston seal basically doesn't exist. This means the bucket load is carried entirely by the much smaller rod area as it is now the effective piston. This will put much higher pressure into the system which will likely exceed the pressure ratings of the hoses and possibly other things in the loop.

[@ernestdarnell7473]

if you fill a cylinder with oil and cap it off it holds the same amount of oil no matter where in the boor the rod end is relaytionship to the ends of the cylender

[@m16ty]

I agree, it won't drop with a internal cylinder bypass as long as the cylinder is arranged where the pressure holding it up is on the bottom side. The cylinder arrangement on most bucket cylinders is setup where a internal leak would cause the bucked to leak out, because the holding pressure is on the rod end.

[@m16ty]

@@ernestdarnell7473 No. A cylinder fully extended will hold more oil than a cylinder fully collapsed. The rod itself takes up space, and when you try to force it into the cylinder it has to displace the oil. Some single acting ram type cylinders don't even have a piston, they just rely on the pressure force against the rod to extend the cylinder.

[@chief1193]

I have always thought that hydraulics leak down when not being used, I have never heard of this not happening.

[@coypatton3160]

I do not know a lot about Kioti tractors, but if the operator is annoyed enough, and he has a loader that is removal (hopefully not a real major procedure) he could remove the loader. My personal experience has been either I was making use of the loader quite a bit (limbs and brush needed to be moved) or it was more in the way while mowing.

[@coypatton3160]

Mike I had a thought later, if his loader is a pain to remove and he is really annoyed by the drop. He could use on of many options to secure his loader at a constant height-a piece of angle iron, or pipe long enough to hold the loader at that height. In my opinion, every loader equipped tractor should have such a device for holding the loader up when needing to work under the loader.

[@roostercogburn3771]

So far so good with my 2009 Kubota L5240 tractor. I have left my loader up and went out to it the next day, and it was still up. Though now after watching this, I'll have to get out the tape measurer and check it. It would be nice if TM would do up a film about ways to protect the loader bucket from wear, like if putting cutting teeth on it would help. My loader doesn't have a replaceable cutting edge it's show some wear! And any other ways to preserve the investment would be helpful! I just got it a couple years ago when I got back to America, with 1550 hours on it. Keep up the good work!

[@terryl7874]

I worked as a quality control technician for a major tractor company for years. One area we had problems and solved was hydraulic valve leaks. The answer came with cooperation with makita to engineer a battery powered torque wrench. We built our own valves. Cylinders were purchased and were known to leak. To my knowledge that problem still exists. Usually the internal seal packing was compromised.

[@mikerequa820]

Great video Mike!! I had a 2011 ag trac could leave loader up it would never drop had agra cat could actually have 500 pounds in it up against the top of container never drop but 2017 Mahindra 1526 dealer tried to fix it replaced control packed the cylinders still dropped I just lived with it.. would drop 2 ft over night bout same for 2020 Branson 2515 and my 2021 Mahindra 1626 will drop around a ft over night but none have dropped while tractor was running or workin. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun enjoy

[@mr.redneck2715]

I have a 2020 3510 and it holds great!

[@brucerushing3212]

Good one

[@chrisj.3507]

Thank you and Merry Christmas to you and your family as well Mike

[@TractorMike]

Thank you, Merry Christmas!

[@hankfrankly7240]

Good video. My question would be, why do older tractors hold their pressure and newer ones don't? What changed? Hope I'm understanding this right.

[@_AndromedaGalaxy_]

build quality would be my guess. the material, machining and assembly. its all gone to pot to save a buck.

[@matthewsims359]

My thoughts exactly.

[@m16ty]

Closer tolerances between the valve spool and housing. Unless a lock is installed on the cylinder, all of them will leak down, some are just faster than others.

[@martykoch7179]

I learned years ago that you ALWAYS lower both your front and rear implements to the ground before dismounting the tractor/equipment. Just a good safety practice, not to mention easier on the hydraulics.

[@fhuber7507]

And... prevents tractor rolling if you forgot the parking brake.

[@royevans7793]

Interesting video! Mike, it was good to meet you on Friday, 11-18-22 at McAlisters in Springfield! I'm the guy from Tightwad. Wanted to talk longer, but I didn't want to interrupt your day. I've gained a lot of useful information since I've started watching your channel, and passed it along to friends.

[@TractorMike]

Good to meet you! It blows my mind that I get recognized out in public like that, I have a lot of viewers but they're spread out so it's rare. Would never expect it at McAllisters! Thanks for watching and telling friends!

[@blessed7fold]

I have heard of this before from several owners on TBN.

[@jamescole1786]

11/28/22. 2day honest analysis of FE Loader (gradual [hydraulic] leak-off) slowly drooping downward...not holding/maintaining its last (parked?) position. Good job Mike bringing into analysis an experienced tractor mechanic who verbally (not enough [close-up] photos) explained internal steel & ('rubber') seals >not< fitting together soo tight! 1000th of inch separation between internal steel bore & ('rubber') seal can cause tiny leak resulting in slow but steady drop of FE Loader a small fraction-of-an-inch. Expert mechanic said 2 locations where this can happen: hydraulic cylinder internal chamber or the control valve/joystick control. Another fine video 2day! Stay safe & carry on Mike!👍👍👍⚙️🔧🍺😊

[@court2379]

The fellow should install a double piloted check valve on each cylinder. Then the fluid stays in the equipment

[@CptBlackbeardlives]

Today's cylinders are very low quality, a quality system will never leak down unless there is a leak that needs fixed. But manufacturers today would rather produce cheap low quality products and call it normal.

[@markchoate9021]

Really great video, Mike and a subject I have wondered about in the past. Just for clarification, is this "drop" of 6 inches while running or while just siting and shut off? thanks,

[@georgesimpson3113]

I've seen different things used to control the drop... cut a piece of CPVC, a pool noodle, etc. Some snow plows come with a clamp in thing for over the road travel.

[@jaclynalley809]

Have a 73 John Deere 2240. No problem with it leaking down, mine was raising up! Very dangerous, especially when I was pulling up old fence posts. Had to replace the entire control box. Doing much better now.

[@DavidBlumenberg]

Great video, control valves do not have the quality that older valves did, I see several loose pistons on the rods in my hydraulic cylinder repair business.

[@TheCC89]

I recently have been noticing this. While running im getting leak down. Constantly having to raise loader while working in a man lift and with heavier fork loads, my tilt will leak down while moving. A small external system leak will happen while off, but a leak down while running concerns me. You guys skipped the part about fixing a cylinder leak down, but assume the only option is rebuild or replace.

[@danclas5983]

I was told when your tractor is parked and not in use to let your loader and three point lift arms all the way down and after you shut the engine off to actuate your loader control all directions to take the pressure off your hydraulic system. I know this isn't a fix for a leaking loader, but it does take the stress off of the hydraulic system and keep a potential problem from getting worse. Luckily I don't notice loader bleed off being much of a problem on my TYM.

[@redclover51]

Answered an issue of concern that is no longer considered to be a problem. For safety reasons I never park the tractor with the loader in a raised position. It's a magnet for parking something under the bucket.

[@frankmoreau8847]

My 2021 New Holland Boomer leaks a little on the loader and the three point lifting arms. I never bothered to measure it since I was taught 50 years ago to take the pressure off of hydraulics when not in use. My Ford New Holland 1715 leaks down a little on the loader, but not at all on the three point lifting arms. Unless I can actually see it leak down, I am not doing to worry about it.

[@trhodesify]

On my JD 145 loader the hydraulic circuit on the bucket tilt leaks down…under load and no load. Do I troubleshoot as you described here? BTW, good video - thanks for posting.

[@_AndromedaGalaxy_]

short answer, yes.

[@Guitdolin]

I have the same issue with my brand new TYM T1104. I noticed a small leak at the loader valve where all the hydraulic lines from the tractor connect to the lines on the loader. I'm wondering if there is a bad/missing gasket somewhere or if one of the connectors is just bad.

[@m16ty]

They make a lock you can install that will hold to eternity. You don't even have to change out the valve, it either mounts on the cylinder or in line between the valve and the cylinder. Things like cranes and manlifts have this, where a drop can seriously injure or kill somebody. On cranes they are mounted directly to the cylinder, so if you blow a hose the boom won't fall. Some backhoe outrigger cylinders have these lock valves.

[@markziegler3551]

I'm not sure I would say this is older vs newer tractor issue. Older tractors did this too. our older 4020 with 148 loader would leak down on through the valve. There were manufacturing tolerances back then too. One thing to consider is smaller loader valves/cylinders will leak down more because there is a volume/minute spec on valve leakage and with a large ag tractor loader with a 2.5" -3.0" cylinder vs a 1.5" cylinder, the same volume of leakage will cause the small cylinder to compress more because the cylinder has less oil capacity.

[@mctag123]

Would increasing the pressure adjustment alleviate some of the drop if its below spec?

[@adskjfhaosh]

Mike do any of the tractor mfg make the fel cylinders with holding valves made into them? Seams like that would be inexpensive and easier on hoses and function valve and safer! Just like aerial lifts and telehanders have been using!

[@TractorMike]

Not that I know of.

[@glennvengroff7235]

I have a brand new Kubota and it does the same thing so I never put a cake under the loader when I park it for the night.

[@trail457]

Why would they not have check valves in the system? If hoses blow the sytem can't fall down. Make it alot safer.

[@patrickmcging8855]

To keep loader up when not in use fit valve on raise pipe loader side of control valves

[@jamieebersole6755]

Any way possible to put on a loader what they use on man lifts that only let the cylinder down under pressure? That might solve the valve issue

[@m16ty]

Yes, you can, if the small amount of leak down annoys you. They have a valve lock that will not release pressure from the up side of the cylinder until pressure is applied to the down side, and will hold for eternity.

[@zfotoguy71]

This is a great video. If it is a cylinder leak, what goes into disassembling the cylinder? And what usually is the part that needs replacing? Is it worth fixing or just replace the cylinder? Is it the same for older tractors compared to new tractors?

[@m16ty]

I disagree with Mike and the mechanic that a internal cylinder leak would cause a loader to drop. It won't because there is less volume in the rod side of the cylinder. That being said, a bad internal cylinder seal can cause problems. It is a lot more cost effective to repair the cylinder than replace it. There are at least a dozen different cylinder designs, but most involve removing the end cap and taking it apart and replacing the internal seal. 99% of the time the cylinder will start leaking externally (and be obvious) before it ever starts leaking internally. This is due to the fact that you rod seal (that keeps the fluid from leaking externally) is exposed to all the dirt, grime, and other elements, where the internal seal is in a closed environment and always submerged in oil.

[@fhuber7507]

Pulling the cylinder apart is a pain in the tail mainly from the cap around the ram generally being hard to get off. Get that turned and disconnect lines ... the ram should pull right out with a big gush of hydraulic fluid. then you have a set of seals and/or o-rings to inspect. Look at the bore of the cylinder which should be smoother than the cylinder of an engine. And the ram/rod needs to be equally smooth. remove the seal set bolts on the rod then the cap and its seals can be accessed by pulling the assembly the rest of the way apart. (Don't know the part names but can take one apart in seconds if that cap comes free easily)

[@fhuber7507]

@@m16ty Depends on the cylinder quality. Some are just not worth the price of taking it to a shop $150 and up rebuild at the shop.

[@TractorMike]

Here's a video that shows a cylinder being repaired: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sGisZ557o7mooNE.

[@m16ty]

@@fhuber7507 I agree that some cylinders are just cheap made and won't hold up very long, but I rebuild myself and usually everything to rebuild can be had for less than $20.

[@dustink8180]

Does it matter what kind of tracker

[@bortonfamilyfarms6094]

Lol. 6” per hour is funny. Mine drops about 6” per minute

[@steven8735]

I had the kioti cs2410 and that used to leak down really really bad and I called a dealer and the dealer said bring it in and they'll look at it they found out that both cylinders were bent from the manufacturer that's why I leaked down so you may want to look at that

[@gregbetts8057]

i would expect that a "electric" check valve on the return line may help ...

[@ernestdarnell7473]

i have a friend that parked a ford tracktor with the loader up and it took 10 years for it to rest on the ground i have a some what newer kubota and it will hit the ground in 10 minutes

[@_AndromedaGalaxy_]

6in an hour? man i wish mine was that slow. mine will drop that much in 10min.

[@steven8735]

Mike how do you get water out of hydraulic systems

[@m16ty]

This can be hard. About the only way I know of is it often requires several oil changes. The hydraulic system has all kinds of places where water can settle and make it really hard to get it all out.

[@TractorMike]

Try the guys at steelcamel.com. That's their specialty.

[@Noah_E]

Short answer: Low quality shafts, seals, and valves with too loose tolerances. Older tractors didn't leak down as much because those components were made to last a lifetime vs the warranty period like modern tractors. 6 inches drop in an hour is the equivalent of an auto maker saying burning a quart of oil every 1,500 miles is normal. Claiming it's acceptable or "normal" to avoid fixing the problem is disgraceful.

[@brucealvarez9263]

I'm curious what people are doing that they would even know how much their bucket leaked down over a 1 hour period.

[@swampwhiteoak1]

First, don’t park a tractor with the loader / bucket in the air - very unsafe, foolish, and negligent. Second, immediately sell the Kioti tractor and buy a New Holland tractor. Third, enjoy the good tractor and be happy.

[@JNHEscapes]

The bottom line: this should not happen. I'm sorry, I don't care if it's an industry problem or "standard" this is crap. If old equipment didn't do it then it's just poor engineering on the new equipment. I had a 1950's ferguson tractor that the 3 point never moved sitting for months. I used to ride by equipment dealers all the time and they would have their telehandlers and backhoe's and all kinds of things with the buckets in the air or booms extended for weeks. This should NOT happen it's just cheap junk. My JD tractor would leak the front bucket down while it was running and it was brand new. The hydraulic noise on these tractors is terrible as well. I just think all of this could be resolved if the manufacturers truly cared and the engineers had a brain. Instead, they just make them annoying along with everything else in this world. If the car or truck is beeping all the time and your cell phone is constantly failing or updating and your tractor bucket won't stay up and your wife hates you and your dog runs away then maybe, just maybe you will forget about the fact you're a drone in a consumer economy being programmed to simply buy a new model.

[@m16ty]

Telehandlers have pilot operated check valves installed that will hold for eternity, I've never seen a tractor loader with these check valves. They could be installed if the leak down bothers you. Even the older tractors will leak down, but I suspect looser machining tolerances make the newer ones do it faster. I suspect why pilot operated check valve are installed on loader tractors is because it would slow the loader down and increase cycle times, due to the fact that pilot operated check valves increase resistance in the hydraulic circuit.

[@jamesrigler]

Cheap Chinese junk not quality made like even 20 years ago my Mahindra does this with only 60 hours on it my 1961 Massey with a add on loader from 1968 doesn't let's start building equipment in America again and make quality a priority