My Honest Review - Certificate of Excellence in Handspinning

[@JillianEve]

Hi Fiber Friends, I want to be very clear about a few things: While I do appreciate the sentiment, I'm not here to argue that my submission should have received a COE. That's the judges' job, not mine. I respect and will defend their decision. (Also, that is not what this video is about, and if you think it is you should probably keep watching). This video would have the same criticisms if I had received a COE or not because I have judged the COE program and it does not meet the standards of my criteria without major revisions. The certification is irrelevant to me, personally. I chose not to give specific examples of the "uncomfortable" things I referred to in the resource list of books. I don't need receipts to show everyone that reading books from the 1950s written by white authors about the handcrafts of cultures that are not their own is "uncomfortable". However, if you don't know what tokenism, othering, fetishization, colonialism, orientalism, or exoticizing are then I encourage you to educate yourself. I'm not arguing about the use of "they" as a singular personal pronoun. I taught language arts, you won't win, don't try. The expectation in my comment section is that everyone's pronouns will be respected. If you can't manage that, quietly see yourself out. 🏳‍⚧ Happy spinning! 🧶

[@woochles]

I appreciate your perspective. I think the CoE would be easier (I say that with a grain of salt lol) if the expectations for each skein were clear and concise. I would love an update if you ever get the data about passing rate etc. I am a data integrity manager and it doesn't sound like their data management is functional. They should have statistics readily at hand.

[@jenthulhu]

@@woochles They probably need a volunteer like YOU! Sounds like everyone involved does not have the life experience needed to make this certification really shine.

[@vernonbowling5136]

I for one have gained a lot of confidence in spinning and weaving from your videos and enthusiasm you exude along with knowing you are a hands on experienced instructor and teacher.👍

[@margotmaule3864]

I want to thank you for your excellent videos…. You are an excellent and generous educator. I SO agree with your latest comments re the COE, though I live in Ballarat Australia. Thankyou SO much Jillian Eve. 👏

[@PJoanGavigan]

Totally understand, though if this guild were truly about improving skills, raising awareness and esteem for this craft in society, you’d think they’d give as much as they took. My sense of this program was (1) no objective standards against which to measure one’s performance, (2) no meaningful communication, and (3) no real connection to the greater craft community or growth in terms of linking past wisdom to current trends in skills and education. That is what gives an impression that generated my “mean girls” comment. The people involved might be the warmest kindest most enthusiastic craftspersons in the world, but the process as it stands tends to kill any of that from what I saw in your very detailed video. This and Knitters Guild certifications were things I was considering doing but to be honest, I have better use for my time. Thank you for reaffirming that for me.

[@Bellbebell]

Imagine doing a PhD dissertation with no advisor, no check-ins with your committee, just submitting 100,000 words blind! In the academic world, PhDs are a process that involves constant check-ins and mini submissions to make sure you are on the right track! To have no way to check on how things are going for a 3 year commitment is bananas

[@terryt.1643]

This can’t be the only spinning guild in the US? There should be one in each state with the number of fiber artists there are…

[@terryt.1643]

This can’t be the only spinning guild in the US? There should be one in each state with the number of fiber artists there are…

[@LatahAshford]

I like your suggestion of 'mini submissions'. A lot of ideas could be pooled from that.

[@jenthulhu]

@@terryt.1643 This is probably just the oldest one. Or one of them that is still around.

[@knitspinfelt]

that is exactly what my PhD was like :( and thesis submission was nerve-wracking, to say the least. But I passed! Thankfully things have changed since then and now students' progress is monitored closely and assistance is there if needed.

[@carlacrazymom]

I could write an entire book about this topic. I will try to keep it ummmm...short...ish? First, these are old ladies without modern teacher education, if the voices on their podcast or webinars or whatever are any indication of their ages. I am also an old lady and along with other a bunch of other education I got my teacher education BEFORE rubrics were a thing. these ladies don't think in terms of rubrics. but i think rubrics are a good thing. this is what you will learn, this is how you will write about what you learned, this is what you should be able to do after practicing what you learned, this is how you will be graded on what you present. second, i think you are right about that whole thing being prohibitive to many spinners who may be excellent spinners. the cost of the submission alone is insane. the reward is a certificate not a monetary prize, the program is done by volunteers, and no stadiums are rented for the judging event (think International quilt festival in houston). where does that entrance money go? not to the handbook for sure. and most important, is the disillusionment i hear in your voice. I hate hate hate hearing that from my spinning guru. your work is magnificent. you are an excellent educator. you have built a community of people who love to play with fluffy stuff and have taught us what to do with it. you have made a difference in the lives of so very many people, especially me. please do not let this bizarre process stop you from doing the thing that brings you so much joy. there are a bunch of folks here telling you the same thing i am...we love you, we love your videos, and we are better spinners because of you. damn...not short at all...oh well. HUGS!!!!

[@1st1anarkissed]

Long and worth reading.

[@sewcrazy423]

This! I am sad for their loss, but Miss J, you have our seal of approval!

[@feltlikeitbydebs]

Beautifully written. I concure ❤

[@jenthulhu]

HEAR! HEAR!

[@teacat55]

Yes.

[@nancyreid8729]

I have an acquaintance who passed the COE in handspinning, and she remained, even after all that, stunningly ignorant in the physics of yarn construction (the behavior of yarn). For instance, she baldly stated that one could not weave with handspun yarn. When I said “I do it all the time,” she backpedaled slightly and said “well, you certainly can’t WARP with handspun singles,” to which I replied, “I do that frequently as well.” I won’t mention her name or location, but it automatically rendered her COE worthless in my mind. As a spinning teacher I have been asked if I have a COE. I have always answered that I have produced a lot of capable and successful spinners, and that I have no need to prove anything else to anyone. I’m with you on this one.

[@leafletleaflet]

!!! To think that an organization made up of primarily weavers could certify someone who didn't know how spinning interacted with weaving I will say that's not necessarily an industry standard opinion on weaving, so I'm not surprised someone thinks that way (and I think this speaks to a problem in the spinning/weaving/dyeing community where there is no central body of knowledge to pull from and few modern resources that collect information like this together). I do think that's super disappointing because I feel like someone at that level should know more about fibercrafts than the average person of their craft, rather than be someone who succeeded purely on technical interpretation and physical performance. Unfortunately this is also a huge problem with college courses, and this video reminded me a lot of applying for grad school in that what they assess to get accepted is not at all the same as "knowledge." Ability to guess at multiple choice questions, to afford tutors who exclusively teach how to take the tests and write the essays and CVs, alumni to guide you in what got them in (and explain that it's not what skills they had that helped them get in), the time to devote to studying something you're *never* going to make use of again, the ridiculous cost and time commitment for something that might never pay off . . . It's all very old school academia. I feel somewhat "I could probably do the handweaving version eventually" because I did get into grad school without the help from alumni or tutors others had, and that is the only reason. Nothing to do with my potential skill at all. Still keeping the handbook to make a plan to learn how to weave more things though I think while I wait to see if it's going to be updated. I mean I already bought it so . . . might as well use it for something in that meantime.

[@nancyreid8729]

@@leafletleaflet well put! I have always included a healthy dose of history and archaeology into my spinning and weaving classes, as well as myth and practical physics; mere technical knowledge without a way to integrate it into its place in the real world doesn’t help anyone out in the long run. Academia for the sake of itself is also not helpful in the real world; make that knowledge relevant to how we live.

[@jenthulhu]

What a hilarious reply. So all throughout human history, people didn't wear clothes either, I suppose? Because it would have HAD to have been woven with handspun yarn before knitting was invented (fairly recently). The mind-boggling ignorance! And you are so kind to not reveal their name. I'm not sure I could be so kind...

[@nancyreid8729]

@@jenthulhu yeah, I did throw in a historical reference after I told her that I had done that very thing with singles; I said “so, pre-industrial revolution, we didn’t weave? And all those sails on all those Viking ships… what about them?” All my friends know the story, and know who she is; I figured destroying her cred in the local community was sufficient, as I truly didn’t want her ignorance, backed by her COE, to spread to new spinners. But there’s no need to smear her in a wider community, and it just looks mean-spirited. It surely did alter my opinion of the COE program though!

[@rickshaw1971]

Can't weave with handspun?? What do they think was going on for approximately the whole of human history prior to about the early 19th century? New Zealand spinning books from the 70s/80s all have huge emphasis on weaving with it.

[@atate43]

The directions really remind me of the scene in Schitt’s Creek where Moira is telling David to “fold in the cheese” and he asks what she means and she just repeats “fold in the cheese” over and over and it’s clear she doesn’t know what it means either!!!

[@marxist_magpie]

this is exactly what I thought too!!!

[@TheSarahLindy]

JuSt FoLd iT iN! 😂😂😂

[@bernsky]

i had a professor, who if the majority of the class got the question on the exam wrong - he would strike it from the exam (giving bonus points to the few who got it right) because he realized he either did not write the question well, or did not teach it well. He was looking for in depth understanding and his tests were often logic puzzles which i loved. he was a beloved professor with a packed course for an incredible hard subject (cell bio) but we were all blessed to have him. sounds to me like this is all a con honestly. you are an inspiring teacher.

[@sunriseeyes0]

That is a wonderful teaching standard your teacher had! It shows his humility and that he doesn’t view himself as past the point of learning and growing. I wish more teachers were like that. The purpose is learning and if it is proven that the students aren’t learning, then the teaching is at fault. I love that so much.

[@slhughes1267]

Oh yeah, I remember Cell Bio.

[@jdieselette]

Just repeating "follow the directions" and not giving clarifications sounds like they don't understand the directions either.

[@raynelouisiana5631]

I think I'm going to type myself a Certificate of It-Turned-Out-How-I-Wanted-So-I-Did-It-Rght. I'll frame it proudly.

[@sannevanbeers]

As it should be!

[@RachelCunningham-ut9ks]

lmao this was my thought!!! we dont need no external validation!

[@taken-for-pomegranted]

If you had said there were 38 people with the certificate in the last 5 or 10 years, I might've been more on board with the validity of this certification. For it to be 38 since 1980 is not a good endorsement of the board, in my opinion. Less than one person per year in the last 44 years is not indicative of a strict level of expertise required of yarn submitted so much as an indication of a poorly-run certification board. There is absolutely no excuse for the discrepancies you describe. Your explanations were incredibly generous, and I don't know if I would have been. Your background in education and, I assume, dealing with difficult parents and students with the level of professionalism required shows in this video. I always make an assumption of ignorance and not malice unless proven otherwise, so I don't think any of the judges make a conscious decision to screw anyone over to keep their little club elite. Whenever you included audio clips from their panel, it really sounds like they have no idea how to actually run a large certification program to begin with. It sounds more like something I might expect to be run in a local guild by someone who isn't familiar with educational or technical writing, but where you could easily ask clarifications face-to-face-not an organization that advertises itself as certification program of unbiased judges. I'd also be very interested in seeing a breakdown of *exactly* where that money goes. With how everything else is run, I don't think it would be all that surprising if it's being mishandled. When you talked about the common comments from spinners when the COE is brought up, it sounds like people dismiss it as a bunch of oblivious, if well-meaning, people running what's become-always was?-a borderline joke.

[@amandag5072]

Their little club way beyond elite... it is the 1% of the 1%! You could almost say it was a con, given the pass rate.

[@magdalenas8713]

Well put

[@francescaquinn4129]

​@@amandag5072 I do not even want to be in a club that has these "guideline" beyond a joke!!!

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

Spinning was a skill that the majority of spinners traditionally learnt in childhood and achieved competence after a few years practice. This sounds like a similar problem we have in the UK with elitism in every craft over the last 30 years, so far as I'm aware. Small cliques set up these nonsense groups to make themselves feel special, while raking in subscriptions. Fortunately we have City & Guilds vocational courses that are extremely well taught and respected.

[@slhughes1267]

I agree. And while it would defeat the purpose of this organization to pass applicants too freely, this ratio to date speaks of too stringent ideas.

[@SerialSpinner-ss]

Very interesting video! I hope it helps the Handweaver's Guild to do some revising in the program. You have brought up so many good points and suggestions. You are an amazing video editor, too! The time commitment in getting a COE is formidable so I decided that instead of getting a COE where other people would tell me what I had to do, I would do my own thing and learn by experimenting. All the experimenting lead me to spin a collection of every type of yarn construction I could find in books or make up on my own. After years of work the result was "The Spinner's Book of Yarn Designs". My personal COE turned into so much more. How fun is that! Hopefully it will help spinners to not be afraid of jumping in with both feet to make anything they can imagine. ❤ Keep up the good work! You have a new subscriber...

[@JillianEve]

I'm honored you stopped by my channel. I love your book so much! 💜

[@SerialSpinner-ss]

@@JillianEve I'm happy to have found you. I still spin, knit and do all the fibery things but have pretty much retired from teaching. Now I'm learning to garden and I'm focusing on being a good Grandma. The community needs people like you who are innovative and thoughtful. Thanks for all you do but mostly for SHARING what you do. That takes a lot of skill and energy.❤

[@tinathecrafter]

@SerialSpinner-ss That is a fascinating story, Sarah. Your book is an invaluable resource that I return to again and again. After watching Evie's video, I downloaded the list of COE recipients. It was interesting that I recognised only a single person as a spinning teacher I have learned from. Except for this lone person, none of the extremely talented, knowledgeable and accomplished women and men who have helped me become a better spinner over the last ten or fifteen years seem to have done the certification. I considered doing it several years ago, when a weaving friend wanted to do the weaving COE. I had no idea that so few people have ever received the certificate! @JillianEve Thank you for being so open about it, Evie, and for pointing out all the problems with the current system. A real eye-opener. (I see the process is under review at present.)

[@Bellbebell]

Seeing Evie in full educator mode 🤯🤯🤯 I’m living for it!! I’m going to watch this video so many times, I can already tell!

[@sonjanordahl3158]

I agree she is such a great educator. Her teaching style is both an artistic gift and a hard won skill.

[@CriaAndKiddFW]

I'd love her to write an article in Spin-Off about it!

[@ElaineChock]

If someone as skilled and knowledgeable as you did not pass. It sure doesn’t bode well for the rest of us! You’ve taught me so much, and your videos have brought me such joy and inspiration that I’m a much better and happier spinner than I used to be. Thank you!!

[@1st1anarkissed]

Same thoughrs here, how valuable is a certificate few know about or hold?

[@terryt.1643]

I wonder about the experts who are judging, they aren’t judging to standards, there is a lot of variance between the judges and they don’t explain their decision. Most of it seems to be based on written not the actual work. A zoom component might be worth updating the certification process.

[@slhughes1267]

Actually, it bodes very well for the rest of us: we've learned from her--not some ossified pedagog. Evie's encouragement is key to newbies.

[@jenniferrwheeler]

As a fellow educator and curriculum designer, I loved hearing your approach this with such professionalism. Thank you for your kindness and objectivity. If you put together a program. I would participate!

[@LynnScholes]

Don’t expect them to change. If they haven’t realised themselves that the certification is outdated and unfit for purpose themselves, they will just become defensive and dig in. Look at what you CAN control. There are enough prominent and experienced ‘ leaders’ in spinning now…bring everyone together, affiliate to a university and create your own certification. Not a quick or easy task but no more challenging than what you have just gone through! Who are THEY anyway? The lack of transparency is equally concerning! Please keep up the great work.

[@sunriseeyes0]

That was my question as well. Who are these people that get to decide what is qualified as “excellence”? What level of recognition do they have from the community that grants them that authority? I know that even universities have their issues, but I figured a guild that has been around as long as they have would have more standards and quality within their organization.

[@searc7]

This reiterates for me the importance of not giving other people the power to judge us or our art. You know, and we know, that your yarn is gorgeous. Perfection is the enemy of good. I guess it would be nice to get a certificate and you certainly put in a ton of time and effort, but I’m glad you are realizing it really doesn’t matter.

[@summerhillspinner9450]

I was the other applicant for the COE in Handspinning in 2023 and I didn’t pass either. Your video really struck a number of notes with me. It’s such a lot of work. One of my skeins was not judged because I didn’t correctly interpret the description “Expanded Prepararion” under the silk category. I agree that some guidelines and rubrics would be very helpful. Thanks for being courageous and putting your thoughts out there.

[@JillianEve]

You're in good company because they gave me 0 points on that one too, probably for the same reason. I asked them to justify taking 20% of the total points in the silk section instead of the points for "fiber choice" under just that skein. They said it's always hard to give 0 points to a skein, but it's not the first time they've had to do it. How, if two spinners were both misunderstanding the handbook, do they not see the need to clarify? If you have other questions and you want to email me, I'd be happy to chat and compare notes. 💜

[@Tinas_Workshop]

You don't need a COE, you are a FPOE, a Fiber Person Of Excellence. In the Fiber Community most people know your name. Almost 2 years ago you were the biggest part of my spinning journey and how and what I learned and now almost 2 years later I have gone from one spinning wheel to 15. People strive to have talent like you and not having a COE will not change that. ❤

[@homespuncouture1537]

Several years ago, I entered a couple of skeins in a competition at my state fiber festival. Additionally, I also assisted the judge who was judging the skeins. The whole experience was really simiilar to what you are describing, on a much smaller scale. Prepping my skeins took way more time than one would think it would, what with all the labelling and index carding. Then when I was assisting the judge, I realized how super important these preparations were to the judge. I think maybe this organization expects you to have experienced having your skeins judged multiple times at a smaller scale before you submit this huge project, so they think you should know how the judging works before you come to them. Unfortunately, the infrastructure for judging spinning has broken down to the point where people don't have access to skein judging like they did in the 1970's, so people like you are flying blind when submitting this body of work. Something needs to change for this certification to stay relevant.

[@sweetann7556]

You deserve a gold star for submitting. Listening to the directions as someone who taught college courses, planned 3-12 curriculum, and regularly write SOPs on the job. If I ever handed back a college exam without letting the student know exactly where every point went I would’ve heard about it. It sounds like a wonderful idea to have a a certificate of excellence in various skills like weaving, spinning, knitting, sewing, etc. that said this particular program sounds more like a test of whether someone can perfectly mimic machine manufactured yarn. That isn’t a bad thing just different than the reason I spin, knit, and weave. You do you and be proud of what you’ve accomplished. I’m glad I saw your video before I got caught up in the education of the crafts. This perfectionist would be going crazy not knowing what I did wrong.

[@barisalrisul]

This video gave me such terrible flashbacks to the process of submitting and defending my phd dissertation. The arbitrary steps that don't demonstrate mastery, the lack of clear criteria, the explanations being outdated, the outcome being highly dependent on who is evaluating, the built in lack of consideration of equity - all of that is highly familiar. I still have nightmares about my phd almost a decade later. I hope this process did not traumatize you as much. You are absolutely right - the assessment needs to be actually useful and transparent in order to benefit the community.

[@LisaHarkins]

I taught myself to spin in my late teens (the 80s). Grew up, raised my family, developed other handcraft skills, and meanwhile the Internet came into being. When I broke my wheel out of its dusty corner last year, I thought it would help to refresh my memory on some things. There you were. We live in an age of wonder for learning, thanks to people like you who give freely of your knowledge in such an accessible way. I have learned so much from you, including learning what I don't know. These crusty gatekeepers have lost sight of their true mission, and you embody it. I am grateful for this smart discussion on how better to achieve that mission, and I hope the people who need to see it take your points to heart. I am a better spinner because of you, and you have had a valuable experience that helped you grow, but you don't need the paper to validate you.

[@drewadrawing]

Generally, I feel like any program or course that is meant to promote the education of a certain skill that has so few "successful" applicants isn't meeting its goal. Those two things are in opposition, either because people are unwilling or unable to follow the program, or the program is arbitrarily assessed. How can we expect people to become passionate about a skill if the judgement on it is so high? I'm only 1/4 of the way through the video so I may come back with more thoughts!

[@weftandwillowstudio]

Spinning and Weaving has been disappearing from the school systems. Something like this is a reason. There needs to be more support for newer spinners to feel encouraged. Your channel has inspired an incredible amount of people for the next generation. I am one of them. HGA should award you with a Certificate of Excellence in Fiber Education.

[@resourcedragon]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that both spinning and knitting should be put into the school system for everybody. The aim is not to turn all the kids into amazing spinners and knitters. Rather, the point is to strengthen the neural connections between the brain and the hands (the extensive use of electronics may be having a deleterious effect on their development of hand-eye coordination), to sneak in some maths and physics and history and geography and economics, to have lessons where the kids can spend a fair bit of the lesson quietly chatting with their neighbours as they do their work, to give the kids experience doing something that is initially difficult, to give the kids experience of overcoming difficulties and doing something they didn't think they could do. If one or two of the kids really like it and/or are very talented at it, that is a bonus.

[@nz-nz]

Pfff….They were comparing hand spun yarn with machine made yarn! There’s no certificate in the world you can get for enjoying what you do. Evie, please know that you bring such enjoyment to each and everyone one of us here. The professional presentation of your videos (and past Vlogmas episodes) is exemplary and the skills you bring to us are truly inspiring. Kia kaha, Aroha nui. ❤️

[@jenthulhu]

Hear! Hear!

[@karavixen2834]

I'm a crocheter and I often buy *machine spun* yarn that is inconsistent in size. Yarns like Lion Brand Roll With It Melange that fluctuates between a 2 and a 4 in weight throughout the skein. Even yarns that are intended to be the same throughout like Bernat Wavelength which I've been working with lately, has some variance in size that seems to be effected by the dye as areas of lighter colored dye seem thinner than darker areas. It just seems like if machine spun yarn from big brands is inconsistent in diameter, often intentionally, then it's absurd to expect that from hand spinning which is exponentially harder to do that with.

[@jenthulhu]

@@karavixen2834 Hear! Hear!

[@jacquelineslavich591]

I’m watching from New Zealand and you were the main reason I’m competent at spinning. I meet with my local group who has a great education person but working ‘with you’ at home got me where I am. Thank you

[@StephanieMayfieldDIG]

What a frustrating and heartbreaking experience. I applaud your constructive criticism that obviously comes from a place of knowledge and experience. Please don't let this ruin your joy of spinning. Watching your videos has greatly contributed to my spinning. What you do for this community is beyond certification.

[@TheKirstebee]

Evie I was shocked to hear you didn’t achieve the COE….it’s wonderful that you are bringing this conversation into the public domain. I’m a vocational educator in Australia and have also been a student with and without rubrics to guide one’s completion of assessments. Rubrics are a great tool to clarify what the examiner is looking for. This greatly increases chances of success and consistency of examination by different people. Our assessment tools need not only the assessment task and the rubric, but also an assessor guide that clearly explains the minimum requirement for each part of the assessment. This is part of the quality assurance process! It sounds to me like the coe is deeply out of date and in need of some serious updating. It should be reviewed every 5 years at least and in consultation with stakeholders - spinners, teachers, examiners, industry people. A modular approach that allows candidates to gain the award in stages would be useful. success breeds success and will encourage more people to attempt the award. Keep up your great work! I love your channel - it has been my number 1 spinning learning channel! Such a valuable resource! ❤❤

[@TiredKnitter]

I love this idea! Get badges along the way for excellent in plying, excellence in finishing, etc

[@mirandahinton3250]

Frankly Evie, if you can't do it nobody can. Check that one off my list, I will never waste my time! Thanks for taking the time!

[@alicetulloch6945]

Some years ago, I passed the COE in Basketweaving, on the second try. Pros: Challenged me to try a lot of methods and to find lots of new materials. Cons: The inherent bias of the syllabus, for example, that coiling wasn’t really a basket making method, which verges on colonialist discrimination. And the exclusion of some rare methods, such as U’kuyus basketry of central California. The work took 1000 hours over 2 years. Yes, “follow the directions” is nit-picky, but that’s how they judge. The syllabus is basically unchanged after all these years, clearly written by someone immersed in eastern N. American and European basketry.

[@stringcheese6833]

It is a completely different program, but I have heard similar things from the Master Handknitted Certification from The Knitting Guild Association - there is a very Euro-centric view of these skillsets, and I imagine it extends to a lot of the crafting/fiber world in general. Basket weaving and spinning are certainly more egregious examples given their much older histories, but I do think it points to a 'canon' being established at a much more segregationalist time and then never being touched again. Even if they do not have someone on hand to evaluate the quality of rarer weaving techniques, they could certainly allow for a 'personal choice' entry to allow someone with these skills to submit them for judging.

[@knitalisa]

Evie, this was such a banger of a video!! The mixture of your education background and spinning knowledge, combined with your desire for improving and growing the community… I hope HGA realize what a gift this feedback is. (Also as a data analyst, I am dying to see the numbers to the questions you asked, although I’m not holding my breath for their response.)

[@StopDropandKnitPodcast]

Exactly! What the HGA needs is Evie’s guidance in restructuring their entire certification process.

[@resourcedragon]

Evie, I am so sorry you went through this process. I saw the video where you were sending off your project and I thought your work ought to blow their socks off. The HGA really knows how to take the joy out of spinning. At the risk of sounding like Jordan Peterson prevaricating when he's asked a question he doesn't want to commit to an answer on, I think we do need to ask: what is excellence? I'm thinking of a number of videos I've watched recently that touch on fibre arts and spinning in traditional and historical contexts. Bruce Fummey (of the channel Scottish History Tours) had a couple of videos on tartan, including one that had examples of what was well and truly pre-industrial spinning and weaving. The yarn was fine and even. It was, at least in the common parlance, excellent. However, I consider it likely that the spinners who made it were probably 'one trick ponies', or at most, they had 3 or 4 quite closely related spinning styles. That does not detract, to my mind, from the excellence of their work. I've also watched some videos of people from isolated areas (a Romanian if I remember correctly and people from a couple of the 'stans) spindle spinning. In all cases the yarn they were spinning was quite thick and not particularly even (they were mainly using long draw, woollen style spinning). In the case of the film from Pakistan the video then showed the yarn being woven on the wonkiest home-made floor loom you could imagine, and the weaver was dong an excellent (that word again!) job of weaving it into a twill fabric. Finally the fabric was made into a type of beret that was popular in that region. The finished result was good and had a bit of a rustic texture that added to the interest of the beret. Then there was the film from the 1970s of shearing, spinning and knitting in the west of Ireland. The male farmers shore their sheep and kept a fleece for domestic use. The women then prepared the fleece for spinning and spun it. One woman was shown using a walking wheel, another was shown using a Saxony wheel, the film followed her rather than the other woman to the end of the process. Their children went off to collect lichen that was used to dye the wool. Once the wool was spun and plied (with two little balls of singles bouncing around in a bowl in lieu of a lazy Kate) and dyed, they knitted it into jumpers and socks, in traditional Arran-knit patterns. The yarn was even and knitted up nicely. Again, is that not an example of excellence, albeit in one aspect of spinning, rather than every aspect ever. That is, in the real world, I think there are lots of good or even excellent spinners who wouldn't even get as far as you did with the HGA Certificate of Excellence. This is why I said in the live chat yesterday that I think the C of E ought to be in modules, so that spinners can get recognition in their favourite areas - and maybe spread out later as their interests grow. I came into the live stream part way through, so I didn't realise that there are apparently two levels of certificate offered. That said, if an organisation calls itself a guild, with that echo of Renaissance guilds, then I think there is scope for at least 3 levels of certificate, Apprentice, Journeyman and Master. I would argue that the Apprentice level certificate should not be all that hard to obtain, the candidate needs to show that they understand the basics of spinning and can apply them. The amount of equipment required should be minimal and the fibre requirements should be simple. The assessment should be flexible, in that it is looking for a well-balance yarn and not necessarily "BFL with 20 wpi and ....." The requirements need to state explicitly what is required and there should be examples of what is acceptable and what isn't going to make the grade. The HGA really needs to get a whole lot of things they are doing up to commonly accepted 21st century standards. If part of their aim is to encourage hand crafting and to encourage excellence in the hand crafts, then they need to make sure that they regain their relevance. One question I've not seen addressed is: does the HGA have accreditation? In Australia, if you are offering a certificate, you should be getting accreditation as an organisation that is qualified to issue certificates. And if the assessment process is not transparent, if the criteria the work is being assessed against are not clearly stated, then the organisation is not going to get that accreditation.

[@emilynie6227]

It's the same for the COE in Handweaving. I submitted to that twice. The first time I was 17 points shy of passing. So I re-did the ones that got points off. The second submission also did not pass and I was surprised that many of the ones I did not loose points on the first time lost points the second time and many of the ones I had a few points off got perfect scores. I also had some comments that all the parts of one part were not there, and they were, but there was no way to contest the scores or information. The slap in the face came when I saw one of the second set of judges work at an exhibition and her selvedges were atrocious!

[@JillianEve]

Stories like yours are sadly, not unique. You and others with the same experience (multiple submissions with inconsistent evaluations) are a big reason why I made this video. I hope you took everything you could from doing all the exercises and can move on being confident in your skills even if you didn't get a certificate. 💜

[@dvorak920289]

Thank you for your honesty and for breaking down the key aspects of this evaluation. As a fellow fiber friend who doesn't consider themselves excellent at spinning by no means, it was quite an insight to see how vague and obsolete HGA can be on the inside. Personally, I spin because it makes me happy to create usable yarn with my hands and then create a garment with it. I take pride in my work and I would love more teachers like you along the way. ❤

[@deejcarter2003]

I started spinning in 2020 and your channel has been at the top for learning. I personally think judging spinning can be so subjective in so many ways like other fields of art. First the certificate samples were done over 4 years. No matter who you are your consistency is going to change, it’s called improving. Second, we are not machines and if we want extremely consistent yarn we can buy it. Lastly I was watching a class by Judith Mackenzie and she made the comment that she needed to stop doing something because her yarn was getting too consistent. Your in good company and your exploration in spinning has helped so many others so, thank you for sharing your knowledge and journey.🥰

[@knitkate]

Judith also says that if your skein hangs without a twist in it, your yarn doesn’t have enough twist and it won’t wear well.

[@Cumbriman]

If the best spinner and teacher on KZbin can't pass the COE then i don't think anyone can. Its probably just down to something as simple as you're not 80 years old and been doing it all your life rather than actually how skilled you are. Nobody can pass any qualification without knowing what the examiners are looking for.

[@jenthulhu]

Without paying double--which seems to be what they want!

[@Cumbriman]

Yeah exactly. Pay a fortune and spend an inordinate amount of time and work to pass an exam with no idea exactly what your supposed to be doing just to fail to get the feedback of what you were supposed to be doing in the first place.

[@inchb.wigglet640]

Having the opinion of a professional educator is really valuable in this.

[@venite_makes_things]

I loved being a CoE patron and remain of the opinion that that coiled yarn is a work of art and could be worn as jewellery. Thank you for taking us along on your “spinning PhD” and I’m sincerely glad that you’re not letting the personal opinion of the judges influence your self worth and professional persona.

[@wendymurray8594]

So sad to hear and see the obvious disappointment, Evie, but so happy to see a video from you. I really don't know how you managed not to scream in frustration on this - although I'm sure there were plenty of moments while trying to fulfil the very vague requirements. I'm assuming you'd have to pay the same amount for resubmission? It will be interesting if they ever get back to you with numbers, to see how many folk are applying / resubmitting. Is the reason for so few qualifiers that there are far fewer applicants?... You should have your own certification school! I believe that in your case, FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS would actually be useful advice. Hope you take comfort in the fact that you personally, and not the Guild, have inspired and taught so very many spinners WORLDWIDE, and we all absolutely love you, your honesty, your clarity, your enthusiasm, and your smiles, even when things go wrong. Sending huge hugs. Thanks for everything you do for the fibre community. 🥰🥰🥰🙏🏼

[@andreamarshall9677]

And one more thing, you are SO right, and I am glad you spent the time delving into it so that others can understand. I have spent years developing rubrics at work as well (teacher!) I hope HGA is watching, and take this as a catalyst to make the COE a valid program and positive experience for spinners.

[@knittingwithchloe]

I really enjoyed this and as an attorney, dealing with horribly written statutes each day, I found your struggle with the contradicting instructions and inconsistent judgment unexpectedly relatable!! I got to wondering about your written submissions and whether you addressed these glaring issues when you were describing your process - this is what I understood the written work to deal with at least in part. I was reminded by this whole review you’ve made for us that in law school, and in legal practice, we are told over and over to address ambiguity from the various possible angles and then explain why we made the arguments we did with supporting evidence, so that even if the text of the law is unclear or the relevant holdings are inconsistent, we have provided insight into our process. Anyway, you did a truly remarkable amount of work - and it must have been exhausting. Thank you for sharing it with us. It was the fantasy yarn and the coils that really sent me over the edge and made me comment bc you put so much thought into your process and it would be frankly shameful if they read an account of that and still brought up the coils.

[@resourcedragon]

Those coils that they wanted evenly spaced are still getting under my skin! If I commissioned someone to spin me some art yarn (my spinning skills aren't up to making art yarn), I'd be disappointed if all the coils were evenly spaced. Yes, it does demonstrate a spinning skill but I think it misses the "art" part of art yarn.

[@sydneestoyles2844]

As a former educator, I really appreciate how well you discuss the differences between criterion and standards and why rubrics with examples are so important. I know personally that having these systems in place helps save time for the students/applicants and the teachers/evaluators.

[@awhippersnapper]

I have consumed your videos hours upon hours and have gained not only skill but inspiration. I know you didn’t make the video for pitty and my affirmations are not out of pitty for your loss but out of respect and gratitude for the work you share with the fiber community. I have never heard of the COE before today but I hopped on to this video with such joy and anticipation for a new video from you and the confidence that I would learn something new and exciting. My heart broke for you as you talked and it is so evident that this process needs to be over hauled. And my biggest hope is that this experience would not stifle your joy of spinning and sharing it with us. You have so much to value and I feel so lucky to have come across your videos and I aspire to have a fraction of the skill you have. Thank you!

[@DebsBeez]

OMG Evie - this is such a good video! I’ve been pondering going for my COE, but will certainly not jump right in now. I think I’ll wait and see how they update the whole COE process. It was interesting to note that every one of my favorite, top 10 spinning instructors are not listed as COE awardees. I hope the organization does not loose the opportunity to upgrade. You would be a great person to have on their upgrade task force. Perhaps a new organization needs to be backed by today’s relevant spinners (Boggs, Casey, Moreno, Reeves, Robson, Anderson …). We need more hand spinning inclusion, not less. Thank you for being such a shining beacon for this lovely slow art. I have learned so much from you over the years. Please keep producing great content!🎉

[@1st1anarkissed]

I just pictured an HGA member/judge who happens to be a viewer reacting to finding out they rejected you.

[@LVXMagick]

Your spirit is so beautiful. I bet you were one of the best elementary principals ever. I'm sure the kids were lucky to have you for the time they did. And now we are lucky to have you. 💙🥰🙏

[@StopDropandKnitPodcast]

Evie, I enjoyed this video so much, especially as a person who has recently found myself assessing a music program. I’m sure you don’t want to hear this, but I truly believe that YOU would be the perfect person to oversee the overhauling of this certification program - especially since you did take the 3 years to participate in it, you have that viewpoint that is much needed. My son is about to perform as Sebastian in his local theatre’s production of The Little Mermaid, and I can’t help but thinking of how Sebastian tells King Triton that Ariel needs someone to watch over her at all times and King Triton agrees, “Yes, and YOU are just the crab to do it!” I do hope this video reaches the appropriate people in the HGA - the feedback you have provided them is invaluable and how wonderful that you have offered the community can help with the bibliography. I truly hope they realize that this kind of feedback is incredibly gracious.

[@maranutt775]

I completely agree with you for all the assessment, standards, rubrics, etc. Their transparent not transparent goal, in my opinion, is for a group of people to be arbitrary subjective judges for others who, unless they want to keep doing the thing over and over, and like you say don't burn out, are the only people who deserve to join. I get that HGA is volunteer run. But if they want something to be a high standard that is current, then they need to put this on pause and update it. Give themselves the time they need to make the standards, communicate them, and then open up submissions again. The group of people. Who are still more than likely alive, who have had a COE, for 40 years, don't want anyone else in that club. Thank you for making this video, and all your hard work not only doing the COE, but organizing this video and making it and working through everything.

[@resourcedragon]

There were definitely a couple of moments where I got the vibe that the examiners were making up the rules as they went along with a view to causing someone to fail for no real reason other than, as you say, gate-keeping for an exclusive club.

[@schumacherae2]

Wow! ZERO recipients of a COE in technical handspinning since 2007. It’s like The Good Place - no one can get in. Why even have a program where the goal is literally unattainable?? Thanks so much for this video and for all your work. You are an incredible teacher. I love how approachable you make spinning and how patient and gentle you are with your audience. ❤

[@jamiefritz6717]

Flashbacks to the time I submitted a couple of skeins to a large fiber festival and they were so inordinately harsh to me that I nearly quit spinning. I did decide I’d never, ever do that to myself again. This sounds like that experience times 200.

[@tinka4243]

Everybody who is willing to pay 300 $ for a certificate because they think they have the skills to pass this does not need this kind of certificate. You are an exelent spinner and a great teacher. Call it an experience. I love to watch your videos and learned a lot from you!

[@Grace-ms7un]

The jar of pickles 😂 and the lambie. Watching chat gpt was like watching classmates do their homework in a group in 15 minutes while i struggle by myself in the corner for an hour

[@KristineVike]

You are amazing, Evie! These videos are beyond difficult to make. But you did it! ❤

[@vindeljay]

I really love the way you analysed and questioned this examination process. These things are often not questioned, just accepted, resulting in many well educated, highly skilled people, believing it is them who have failed and not the system who measures the work.

[@jenthulhu]

Especially 40ish years ago when this whole thing began. Back then, there were no other options. And very few handspinners worldwide. Times have changed and like a lot of dinosaurs, these folks didn't keep up with the times. At all. They seem to still be living in the 1970s with the exception of having a website. That whole generation's authoritarian mindset--just do as I say--is the reason that the whole world is in upheaval now--as a complete and utter rejection of those values.

[@sadiesspincraft6319]

This is why I could not do a COE as I can't work to other people's standards but really well done on what you have achieved evie you should still be proud even if you didn't pass. In my eyes, you did pass well done xx ❤

[@lespelotesderika]

Omg, the knowledge you are sharing for years with the spinning, and right now with this video on how to evaluate is so generous, so well done, you are truly the best! I was heartbroken for you in the beginning of the video, and now I feel so inspired, you can really be proud of yourself! Thank you!💜

[@mandyperlaky570]

I second a lot of things other commenters have said, but I wanted to add that I'm baffled that the one woman said "don't try to interpret" the directions. What? Reading comprehension is interpreting written words, and honestly I am kind of angry that they are so sure their words are clear that there couldn't possibly be multiple interpretations of those words. Why even bother "providing" a mentor or means of communication if all the replies are just canned "refer to the book and read the directions" responses.

[@lyssam100]

My bet is that she assumed whatever she read into the instructions is the "obvious" interpretation, and everything else is just reaching. It's very telling of her worldview.

[@amandag5072]

There is a similar program in the UK. The syllabus is just as rigid and little to no guidance on technique is provided... how is anyone suposed to know if they are meeting the requirements if nothing is taught and no feedback or guidance given until the examination. I'm gutted for you not getting the certifcate, but your journey sounds like a fascinating one. Don't let this get you down.

[@sjhall85]

Is that the AGWSD? I was considering it but wondered watching this video if the process suffers from similar issues as the structure sounded similar to what I have read about it

[@rebeckaroy6790]

@@sjhall85 I am in the midst of working on my CoA by the AGWSD. I am very intrigued to hear about another program. Anyway, the costs seem way lower here and they have redone the syllabus recently. Not to say the UK version is better but they are more clear about what they expect and what support they will give. Support- very little, you are on your own to learn from publications and whatever classes you choose, this is not a teaching course. Expectations- show progress from first skeins/samples, document everything, write about what you learned and changed, show that you understand why certain yarns you make would work well for particular applications. I am less interested in whether I actually get a Certificate and more interested in following a structure to stretch me out of my comfort zone, preparing a portfolio, and getting feedback.... and because the fee is much lower I don't mind.

[@helenfenner7488]

Hi, I am from the UK. I wanted to thank you for being so honest and generous with your journey and submission. . Your spinning videos are so informative and encouraging. It is unfortunate that the board of examiners don't feel the need to show examples of the spinning they require. Without examples you're left to your own interpretation. I want to thank you for your honesty and generosity with learning to spin. Hopefully other people will think twice before submitting to this council. We are not machines. I personally have learnt so much from you. The most important thing I have learnt is to have a go , play be creative and enjoy spinning without the, " your not good enough" voice booming away

[@sonjanordahl3158]

YES, Thank you use the word "They" the term "His or her" is such a mouth full and it breaks the rhythm of natural speech.

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

I'm so frigging glad this is now something acceptable. When I was in elementary school in the 80s, it was most certainly NOT, we were told to use "him" as a default, and I thought it was stupid so I used "they" anyways and got marked down repeatedly in every English assignment where it came up.

[@mirandarensberger6919]

​@@bunhelsingslegacy3549 Yes! I remember my 11th grade English teacher, in 1993, recommending reworking a sentence to make the subject plural. That way one could avoid the default "he" without resorting to either the clunky "he or she" or the dread singular "they". For example, instead of saying, "The applicant should submit his or her skeins", she would suggest saying, "Applicants should submit their skeins". This works, but there are times where you really are just talking about one person and you still need to keep it gender neutral. I thought it was ridiculous to have to do this in writing when all of us, including the teacher, would use singular "they" in speech without even thinking about it. On the other hand, I was grateful that she gave us a way to use gender-neutral language without being marked down. I knew I had it better than my mom. When she was in school in the 1960s, "he" was the only accepted option. She has told me how much she hated it and tried to argue with her teachers, to no avail. It was always "the masculine includes the feminine", and never mind that she didn't feel included at all. So the old ways of speaking and writing didn't even make sense at the time, and they certainly don't now. As our ideas about gender continue to expand, it gets more and more important to be as inclusive as possible. They can just say, "The applicant should submit their skeins"; it's so much simpler.

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

@@mirandarensberger6919 Yep, I remember doing the workarounds to just avoid the issue whenever possible.

[@sonjanordahl3158]

Yep, me too.@@bunhelsingslegacy3549

[@resourcedragon]

@@mirandarensberger6919: I remember hating "he" also "including" she (except what it actually did was _exclude_ she). And the whole point was that she would be excluded.

[@sutarikun]

I'm only about halfway through the video and I've been skimming the comments but as someone who studied to be a music educator (even if I did not pass the student teaching portion of my undergraduate degree and just ended up with a BA), I am very frustrated to hear that there is not any form of clear rubric or guidelines for "grading" or "scoring" across the board for this. Doing almost a full curriculum in music education, I am aware that even in a very subjective area you can create a rubric for grading such a topic fairly. As of right now, I spin for fun and for stress relief and I'm glad I probably will not be pursuing this myself. It's just frustrating to hear that it's such a strain on someone else who i believe to be so worthy.

[@beverleylawton6899]

Thank you, Evie, for this brilliant video. You presented it so well and I found it fascinating. What a very fair, considered, comprehensive and holistic review of the COE. Your ideas for improvement are great and they would do well to take this opportunity, that you have kindly presented them with, and revamp the course, bringing up to date and making it a true assessment of handspinning skill and excellence. You probably don’t want to hear this…but it would appear that the HGA need you at the helm!! Well done for completing such a grueling course. It sounds utterly stressful - trying hard to create something that will be assessed, without knowing the remit! Crazy. Thank you for taking the time to put this epic review together. 😊🙏

[@spinelstar]

I think they should have more levels. Level 1 should be achievable for almost anyone who’s been spinning for a decent amount of time- say, a few years. You know, kind of like how they give out different color belts in martial arts. I also think some specialties would be helpful. Imagine a spinner who’s been spinning beautiful, consistent cotton threads for years and years. Don’t they deserve some kind of certification/expert status? The program could award several certifications for people who submit the larger projects, too. I’m glad that the HGA is finally looking at this program, and hopefully revising it. It sounds like it’s VERY overdue. Thank you for this honest review, Evie. It was exhaustive and extremely fair. I hope the HGA appreciates (and makes use of) your educational expertise!

[@TheKirstebee]

Further to my previous comment I quite agree about how helpful exemplars are to illustrate what the examiners are looking for. Also, the feedback should be adequate and written in such a way that the candidate has enough information to fix the issues. On reassessment then, only the outstanding issues need to be reexamined- saving everyone involved a lot of time and effort.

[@jenthulhu]

And photos are so dang simple to upload to a website. Everything needed could be right there with just a modicum of work.

[@PNWwonder]

You are on point with your evaluation! I would consider myself an excellent hand spinner and had considered getting started on the program. I ordered the handbook and was severely disappointed in it, the resources, the lack of a grading system and the cost was a bit ridiculous in my opinion. It needs a serious overhaul, the lack of people receiving it is extremely telling. As an educator you definitely understand that more than most. You also touched on things i didn’t think of. It feels very bias and make it up as they go. It feels like a high school, popularity contest in ways. Thanks for all your wisdom you share with us, your a master spinner in my book! ❤

[@feltlikeitbydebs]

Hi fibre friend. My thoughts ... credentials are useless if you can't inspire, share so the student understands and wants to try. I have truly learnt more from you, been inspired more from your entertaining and thought provoking videos than l believe any so called 'person that someone else said they have credentials ' . I love informal learning cause l can add me to my creations. Looking forward to your next video. Much appreciation from Debs Western Australia.

[@aleishadorning5234]

I also want to thank you for your review of this program. As someone who is always striving to become the "best" at my chosen crafts (even when it is competing only against myself), I was really considering the COE program in spinning, as well as the Knitting Guild and Crochet Guild Master certifications. I have heard from so many people who have wonderful skills that do not pass these antiquated programs. I think that educators, such as yourself, should remain focused on nurturing a love of learning the craft (any craft) and, if you can do that for your students, you have achieved excellence. Those programs are not operating under a correct definition of the word "excellence" and are long overdue for an update. You are an excellent educator.

[@theresarounds6869]

I understand that some people want to provide standards to any given profession or skill through platforms like the one you are discussing here. But when there is a substantial fee, I feel that there then needs to be a system in place that provides guidance and clarification at any point in the process for the applicant (and judges). I also would want to know where the funds are being spent. If you say that most of this is volunteer on the organizers, then what is the application fee spent on. Full transparency.

[@resourcedragon]

The lack of transparency is consistent with the lack of transparency in the assessment process. This is an organisation that is stuck in the past in a lot of areas and needs to make some significant changes to move into the 21st century and remain relevant.

[@crafty_owl]

You're a huge part of the reason I started spinning and weaving, so thank you for all the hard work you've put into your videos and tutorials over the years. What an amazing wealth of knowledge.

[@prettypanda]

I found your channel a few months ago as a non-spinner but now after watching so many of your videos I really want to get into this. I don't think I'd ever want to take a certificate of excellence for all the reasons you laid out but I'm glad your channel exists to inspire us all

[@sixmitts]

Oh my! This gives me flashbacks to working on National Board Certification with two other teachers. The "cohort" of mentors kept telling us things like, "Make sure you do this part right because everyone keeps getting it wrong." No examples or clarification. It was very frustrating.

[@nblmqst1167]

Evie, thank you for taking the time and effort to research this program and give us an indepth review. Very much appreciated. ❤

[@debbieretzlaff2912]

Wow, who are the people behind this organization? This is so disturbing on every level! The low numbers of participants completing the program, incongruent directions & lack of assistance says it all. Thank you for your exemplary review of this process and hopefully some very important changes will be made within this organization or a new organization will be formed that will really be helpful & encouraging to spinners!

[@laurelscott4466]

Another point… have all the judges passed the COE?

[@knitkate]

And if they have, what happens when we run out of judges, because only 5 have passed COE in the last 24 years?

[@knittingthestash]

Your video review is amazing. Subtle, smart, insightful. I will admit to laughing out loud at some of the mis-steps of the COE committee. Oh my. Thank you for encouraging this self-appointed "governing body" to be more inclusive, thoughtful, and helpful in their certification process. Admittedly, I'm someone who believes there are many, many ways to accomplish something (so I'm not on-board with the idea of only following instructions), but I really appreciate the way you've not only gotten this info out to the community BUT ALSO offered practical suggestions for revision of their program, a crowd-sourced bibliography, and encouragement for diversity, equity, and inclusion.

[@kieraoona]

I remember when you were working on a very technical spin with silk, and how you were a bit frustrated by it, but even if you didn't get the CoE, you've always done such beautiful work and you should be proud of your work!

[@rachelmaynard2042]

Just before watching this I saw a video about the SAT question that did not have the correct answer as an option. It feels like the same mindset is behind this test. You are AMAZING, Jillian, and so is your work! The fact that you did all this with documentation will hopefully bring the problems with the process to light in the eyes of the HGA, so they might review the system. Hugs!

[@stillarobyn]

We are so blessed to have you in this community. I've especially enjoyed your recent critique on the involvement of AI, including in this video. Your analytical critiques bring the art of handspinning into the modern day, and I think that value is incalculable.

[@stillarobyn]

And having come toward the end of the video, I do want to say that any examination that relies on strict adherence to directions does not assess one's knowledge on the subject, it assesses how well they can take the test.

[@sarahs9036]

You are a saint for being so nice and fair in the way you address this. I can't imagine doing the amount of work you have shared with us that you've done only to have a bunch of gate keepy old ladies shoot you down. I would LOVE if you (a professional educator) would create your own COE program that we could follow. If you make a project list exploring multiple techniques and spinning styles, and then offer a self graded path for people to follow for bragging rights and fun, and another track where people can send their work in for review, I would pay good money for it. Even better if you can sell little kits for each part of the adventure! Pls don't let this get you down. A whole generation of spinners will attest that you have a COE in our eyes ❤️

[@joyyak7865]

As a long time spinner, dyer, processor, fiber arts teacher, I applaud you for being so clear on your critique/evaluation of their program. I have thought about the reasons I keep putting off certification, but I have always felt that the craft has a lot of individualization and does not need to be perfect to a mm of consistency. I tell my students to enjoy the process and if they are happy with the end prodecut that is all that is needed. Stand strong in your knowledge base, continue enjoying and teaching the art and don't worry about judgement! TouchOfFiber

[@ColorsofHopeCraftsASMR]

Evie, I’m shocked you didn’t get it. If you didn’t deserve it, no one does. I’ve learned so much from you, and I continue to learn so much from you.

[@Addysfearless]

I found myself rewatching this video today and what stuck with me was your commentary on how this labor potentially curtailed your ability to foster the community. Validity aside, the lady who said this took 9 months of 40 hours a week work shows that this is an unrealistic quantity of work to show basic consistency in similar skills for most people. Furthermore, the example of the lady who resubmitted and passed the second time with the same skeins shows that its not really about the pudding, but your quality of thought expression in writing...which is not how...almost any new spinners will learn skills in the modern world, and opens up all kinds of bias. I think this certificate should be structured something like Master Gardeners: a standard test, include sort of a variety of samples (but not this many) , and provide evidence of how you engage with and pass on the craft and associated knowledge.

[@lenoreball8798]

Oh Evie; kudos to you for your long journey with the COE application. I was an adult educator, recently retired, and I agree with you whole heartedly. I am just seeing improvement in my spinning this year, and can't even imagine trying to get a COE in my lifetime, or even if I would want such a thing. Your suggestions for improving the process, handbook instructions and including a rubric are excellent. I hope the HGA will take your suggestions to heart. Also, you are the best fibre arts teacher I have ever seen. Thank you.

[@madamesasquatch]

Really appreciated this video. Good work regardless and your frustrations are very valid. I am glad to see this from you before trying to attempt anything like this myself as I am a VERY literal person and tend to over-think the simplest of instructions...I am sure any unclear instructions would be head-spinning

[@louissyllagarcia9232]

Hi, I am completely new to spinning and I do not know the professional certification system in the United States, but after decades working in the educational system I can say that you are an excellent teacher. Thank you very much for your work.

[@emiliabarbosa8835]

Dear Evie, what a ride! Your critique and criticism of this program is very thoughtful and insightful. No rubrics, no definition of standards, contradictory and elusive information and guidelines, and that nagging persistence on "just follow the rules" makes for a very less than excellent program. I guess the worst part is the total disconnect between the mighty goals and what it actually delivers. In my book, you are a Master of Excellence in Hand Spinning and the rest is history. Just pass it forward and continue making sure everyone in this community has access to good learning and foundational tutorials. Heck, that's way more than any supposed national hand spinning authority does for us on any given day! So congratulations on your achievements, honesty, and no nonsense approach to it all ❤🎉❤

[@ginaheutink968]

Spinning for me is a relaxing hobby. The yarn is a creative form of art,unique to the spinner. If I want machine spun yarn I can go to the yarn shop. I enjoy your videos you do a good job. Thankyou for teaching us.

[@retroattitudes1]

I totally understand what you are saying about the Certificate of Excellence in Handspinning program. It is clear that you are an excellent educator and have tried to generalize your knowledge of assessments, direction writing, and rubrics obtaining this Certificate of Excellence Handspinning.. The problem is you were dealing with non-educators. All the excellent criticisms you are making in your critique has quite literally gone over their head. I watched the whole video by the way. I am a retired Intervention Specialist for Individuals with Multiple Disabilities and a handspinner of 30 years. You go girl! You are on the higher ground. If nothing else, I am sure this video has helped you process this experience. I am sure what you submitted was in no way a "failure" failure but superb!

[@thelittlethingskate9567]

I’m so glad I watched this whole video! I am a VERY beginning spinner, and don’t ever expect to even be intermediate. But this hits home on so many levels, for so many other parts of my life. Ive been struggling so badly with the impossibility of my skills or my self ever having value. Because in this world, value is measured in dollars and in certificates and in accolades. Zero parts of me, and zero of my skills are appreciated with those scores. There is no measurable standard for unvalued “women’s work.” I’m struggling to explain myself. Anyway, this video made me feel a little more sad, but a lot less alone. I hope the governing body of the HGA sees this video and can sit down and enjoy a nice big slice of humble pie, and maybe consult with you for a revision of their system. ❤

[@amymurdock5905]

Oh, Evie! Such an emotional rollercoaster for you, for us to hear about with you! I applaud your huge efforts to be dispassionate and present points with great clarity. Your education serves you well! You were SO respectful to the Guild and to any and all participants. You bring extremely valid points to open discussion. I do hope everyone within the sound of your voice and influence is reflective in their own world and with their own choices and actions. This is a TED talk! Thank you for sharing this with your general subscribers. We are faithful followers and will bear success and burdens with you. You have such a heart for the entire crafting and fiber community. Carry the torch! We are right behind you! ~A

[@sassysuzy4u]

Update on the COE - Just went to the site to order the book and got this message "At the March 2024 meeting of the Board of Directors, it was with great difficulty that the Board voted to temporarily suspend the COE examinations in Handweaving, Spinning, and Dyeing and to terminate the COE examination in Basketmaking. This suspension will allow the COE Task Force to continue their work.The COE handbooks are still available for purchase, but once they sell out, they will not be restocked until the handbooks have been revised."

[@GrizzyLemming]

This comment needs pinning. Very interesting development!

[@AmandaFerry]

Thank you Evie! This video is providing vital and important work for the fiber arts community and I am deeply grateful to you for it.

[@jenthulhu]

Yes. Where's the rubric? How do you know how to spin it, if they don't tell you what they expect you to achieve? If you have been a school principal, then you KNOW that a teacher that has failed to tell the student what they expect the student to learn/do has failed before they have even begun. (I studied education too.) Further, if only that many people have achieved this award since 1980, then it's not realistic. If you're paying $400 for them to judge all of those skeins they need to know their stuff--they need to have passed the very clear requirements themselves--there should be no quick internet search needed. My conclusion: they're not being fair. There's no way, given these parameters, that this is a fair assessment. Period. I'm so sorry. I'm having some very mean spirited feelings about that organization. Also, I'm really proud of you for making this video. You're so brave to be so honest. I know it had to be hard.

[@ClaireOttman]

Thanks for doing this vlog. I knew about COE but have never been competitive enough to try for it. Didn't want to spend the money & time on it. My handspun is spun to my own standards. The items I make with it hold up. And that's good enough. You're on top of your game. A COE is just another piece of paper. We have too much paper in our lives but never enough fiber.😊

[@tanyarichmond8313]

Thank you for sharing this and for your vulnerability and transparency. I am just learning to spin, but, am someone who is always on the lookout for ways to "certify" that I am doing well. Sometimes, with art, that external validation gives me something to aspire to or to push against. I say this with absolutely no authority or solid background, but, your art is stunning and your skills in teaching the art and craft of spinning were what inspired me to even care about trying it. Your research, years of applying that research to your practice, and your generosity in sharing it all is admirable and fills a very big hole in the world of fiber arts. I don't have a certificate to award you. But, I will always think of you as the "go to" for fiber questions. You surpassed the challenge, in my humble and heartfelt opinion. Keep going, Evie! The world needs more of what you bring to it!

[@fernsmum-l5y]

wow, I have learnt so much from you and your unique and well thought through videos it is hard to fathom how you didn''t get your COE, but your very fair review of the process with an educators perspective was very insightful. Hopefully your words will reach the right ears and the necessary changes to the program will be implemented, Take heart Evie, nearly 60k of us value your experience and teaching.

[@cyndidaves5313]

Hi Eve, you made me truly laugh out loud with your crying antics and thwarping your yarn in frustration. Amazing video with tons of information and interesting COE certs.

[@fyonatresseble2340]

When I had considered trying to spin for my COE it was shortly after one of my guild mates had submitted her work and passed. I had learned how to make just about every yarn she submitted... on a drop spindle. Because I didn't own a spinning wheel and was lacking in the fancier tools. Looking over the COE at the time, they wanted most skeins to be done with a wheel. I put the problem away, and have continued my own learning in my own way. Maybe someday I will look into it again.

[@bonnielundholm5535]

I completely understand your view on criteria and standards. I found it very frustrating 20 years ago when taking the test writing for teachers course in college, because so many of my fellow students couldn't understand this. Also, I enjoyed listening to your teacher talk. I became disabled 10 years ago, so I don't get to be in these types of conversation anymore.

[@TheSarahLindy]

I love this!! Flex those educator muscles Evie! If you’re going to grade/judge you have to have a *revised, up-to-date rubric*… you must have consistency (much like that you are requesting from your pupils)! Ive been so skeptical of certifications because ✨THIS✨ 👏 Those award numbers being so low cannot be representative of the number of people that participate in this craft… but it could be representative of the general feeling toward either the process or the negative attitudes toward credibility/prestige 😳

[@Julia-zj2ch]

This is a very informative video. The HGA would do well you have you on their committee to review and improve the handbook. Clarity and specificity is vital in such an endeavor as this COE. I watched your entire video and I thank you for the time, thought, intelligence, effort and care you put into it. I have no doubt you did the same with all aspects of completing the COE.