My HSS End Mill Will Machine Circles Around Your Carbide Tools

Jessie discusses HSS tooling and how going the cheap way… is actually costing you more than just money.
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#CNC #Machining #Machinist

[@gudrh4024]

That's some wack thumbnail

[@EvilGeniusGaming84]

It got my attention, and obviously got your attention 🤙🏽😄

[@huntinggamer100]

Right? I was hoping for some kinda snake oil hss end mill promotion or something

[@nickthompson1812]

It got me to hit “don’t recommend posts” too, enjoy your bucktoothed caricatures

[@trevorgoforth8963]

@@nickthompson1812 oh no what are we going to do…. Thanks for continuing to comment driving the algorithm to push our video further. We appreciate it

[@Ry_Guy]

​@@ayegee3601your loss, overreact much? 😂

[@StauterAdventureCo.]

The thumbnail killed me! 🤣 I learned very early on that saving money is not always the best method. To run a company or even a department, you have to know when to spend money. We recently had an instance in which a manager could have gotten the proper repair done on our main a/c but decided to go with the much cheaper patch job. 8 months later and the company had to spend tens of thousands getting the system replaced due to this. My point is that there's a time to save money and there's a time to spend it.

[@dillonakaeduardo1732]

You guys have A/C?

[@StauterAdventureCo.]

@@dillonakaeduardo1732 for the office, yes.

[@mackk123]

smoke'm if you got'm

[@denyscpoyner]

I used to work in a welding shop that insisted on buying Harbor Freight grinders that burned up in a Month. I explained to them that they were wasting money, if they bought a quality grinder it would last years not a month. They said no that's too much, we get these for 30 bucks. 30x12 vs 100 yeah you're saving money alright. 😂

[@motoxxx509er]

I used to work at a shop where the owner refused to buy any new equipment unless we had a PO in hand to pay for. After 15 years this never happened. I started my own shop last year with the model of only using the best machines, tools, work holding, etc. I am the only employee with two machines and I do a third of the sales every month as my previous employer that has 15 employees and 20 machines with an average age of 18 years old. Things are good right now so we both make money, I just make it faster.

[@TheDandyMann]

Bravo, keep working hard 👍

[@rexmundi8154]

Everything comes down to what kind of shop / machinist you want to be. Go big with a bunch of payroll and overhead or buy a used VMC, a Prototrak, and a few decent lathes and take the jobs that Titan can’t even be bothered to look at. Everyone I know running a small job shop is covered up with work. It’s a lot less painful to neck down a HSS endmill for some special purpose than a carbide one. Less of a pain in the ass as well. It’s definitely a lot easier mentally to let those machines that are paid for sit in the garage you own while you go on vacation. They aren’t eating nothing.

[@littlejackalo5326]

Anyone running a job shop using HSS is just losing money. They have no place in a business anymore.

[@joelmacdonald6994]

I actually still often grab HSS endmills when I have to go down to manual land. Those machines are older and don’t have much rpm available, so anything 1/2” and under is running nowhere near the speed they should. I prefer the sharper HSS over coated carbide when I’m running those machines. HSS still has its place, but back on the CNCs carbide is king.

[@ProjectShopFl]

"Thought without action is worthless" words to live by 👊

[@SwiftlyGuyver_]

And thought I put forward to my supervisor for almost 2 years only to be ignored for petty ignorance and bullshit corporate policies. Well I had a new job within a week of leaving and they listen to what I have to say. Trying to cut 4340 M harden steel with 1.5" hss endmill!!! What a joke that shop was.

[@theshed8802]

I use both hss and carbide tooling in my shop. Hss is worth its weight in gold, when you use it in the right situations. I still have an old shaper in my shop, because it can run in background cleaning up crap, for essentially no cost, while I make money on the next operation without destroying tooling. What I am saying is that there is never a single tool or machine solution. Carbide is almost always my preferred option, but I run hss end mills into jobs where I know damaged tools are inevitable. Cheap $20 hss lasts better than $150 carbide in some situations. Choose the most cost effective tooling for each job. Never prejudice your decision because 'this is always better'. That's how you make money.

[@TheDandyMann]

Shapers are one of my favorite tools as a youngen. Ive watched plenty of Abom79s shaper vids and there's tons of work they can do. I actually want to make a CNC shaper one day just for giggles

[@brianwaayenberg3099]

@@TheDandyMann add a attachment to your mill head! (attached to the casting, not the spindle!!!! ive done this to stroke keys :)

[@benhart16]

As a business owner, he's spot on. Buying expensive brand new equipment is generally the last option I consider, but sometimes it's the one I go with when it pencils. Generally the best value is in used modern equipment. That way you get most of the benefits of new equipment but with a cheaper price tag.

[@phuckyocouch9098]

No warranty though and you don't know what the heck the previous owner was doing with it. It's not like they're gonna tell you. You better inspect the crap out of it before you buy. Otherwise you could be buying a machine with enough repair bills piling up on it to have just bought a new machine in the first place.

[@endurofurry]

Depends on the equipment. I can tell you the best value is new when it comes to dirt-moving equipment. Time is money and downtime costs you money. I found with many of my jobs when using used equipment. We would spend far more than we needed on repairs and that down time. a cost that was more than the cost of new iron.

[@SGO113]

I’m so tempted to show this to my boss 😂 I felt like you were describing where I work

[@kevinwayne7546]

If you value your job long-term take the risk and show him! if he blows it off, get that resume polished up!

[@therealsourc3]

I feel you, that's exactly how my shop operates too. My boss doesn't listen to anybody, especially not me xD

[@blueovalfan23]

@@therealsourc3 what's great is when there's an obvious problem that they ignore you on for months. then they find you are 100% correct when it comes to halting conclusion. that's a satisfying "i told you so". we gotta run, make it work they say and then um boss man there's no getting around this at this point. they say they can run that cnc but when the guy that lives eats and breaths that machine says something they don't listen where i work. seriously, i've bumped that table speed up before just to make them nervous lol. mind you this is running the same programs we run day in and day out. no feed override, just table speed. sometimes they have no clue lol... looking into moving on currently. i've officially outgrown their needs at this point. i'm fixing programs, not my job and zero credit, i'm manipulating offsets to reduce scrap due to limited poor programing, fixing problems the other shift can't, scared of that machine even when i show them what to do and explain while showing them in the program why it's completely safe. then they reward me with employment threats occasionally or more recently of threats write ups based on lies from the other shift with NO investigation. that last one really got to me. 2 sides to every story and 3 times this week and 3 times explained and very evident it's not on me. oddly though they're training me to be a supervisor and they did bump my payscale to the highest to ever have ran that machine. part of me wants to ride it out, curious and the other, more logical part knows it's time to take a chance elsewhere. it's not like i'm going to expand my skills there further than what i have currently. i bought a cnc router just to get hands on programing. no one has done that, learned coding, working on more complicated software and learned at home in their own time. that's dedication.. they'll make it without me but they will not replace me. i've given that place more than anyone previously and they are certainly not very thankful. maybe they'll listen to the next guy.

[@monad_tcp]

@@kevinwayne7546 I don't work with machining, I'm a software developer with that as a hobby, I find it funny that the same used to happen with my company, and the irony is that computers are ridiculously cheap (do you think you are really saving $300 by not giving me 32GB of RAM ?, while I waste 16h per month just waiting the machine to be ready?) . Needless to say, I "fired" my boss, which mean that I quit and made my own company. (I don't even need to compete with him, I just get more lucrative jobs by investing in the craft and on better tools) Damn bean counter boss, don't be one. You're in the business to make profit, not to spend less. You spend less, you make less. Have to spend it smart.

[@bocampo2934]

There's no way to express how common this situation is. The many job shops I've been in, and have had friends tell me of, all operate under the same "production only mindset," where it's near impossible to meet scheduled deadlines, there's never enough people in a department to continue the flow of labor, and worst of all, the need for parts to be made accurately and quickly with the absolute bare minimum in equipment and of course tooling. Sorry for the rant, but the buildings I work in have no proper windows or airflow, so I had to vent somewhere.

[@TheDandyMann]

My shop basically strong armed me into buying myself a fan to keep me cool after my boss kept stealing the company provided fan I was using because he needed to blow the excess misted coolant out of his face. I have had heat exhaustion twice this year during the summer and had to make up work because of it. There are no windows in the entire shop, and the only airflow we get is when the bay doors are open in front and back

[@oldscratch3535]

@@TheDandyMann How can you be expected to make accurate parts with such wild temperature swings? Our 300K sqft building is completely air conditioned and its never more than 75F inside. They try to maintain 72F year round. Its 68F in the metrology/QC department. You have to wear a jacket in there.

[@TheDandyMann]

@@oldscratch3535 None of our parts require much accuracy. Usually .1 or .02 and sometimes .005 but never anything really accurate to .0005 or lower. We make large pin assembly's for construction hinges for excavators for the majority. They get turned, then on a mill for drilling holes, in house case hardening, grinding, hard turn, welding and finally paint for the welded plate. We also machine a ton of cast iron

[@oldscratch3535]

@@TheDandyMann I have a few of those big pins that I salvaged for scrap lathe material for projects. What kind of steel is it and the hardness? How thick is the hardened layer?

[@TheDandyMann]

@@oldscratch3535 I think it's 4140, don't know the hardness and I believe it should be .100-.200 deep

[@guardmanonduty5139]

My tool and die shop uses HSS. We have carbide as well but there are instances that HSS has actually performed better than carbide in some jobs. Not saying your incorrect but HSS is still useful in a few ways. An example was these welded fixture frames we made that needed a .0015 tolerance flatness over the entire top. We initially tried a carbide shell mill, no matter what we did or how well we secured it to the table, new inserts, different types of inserts, different speeds and feeds, nothing worked. Switched to a HSS sheel mill and it worked great.

[@irishwristwatch2487]

Agreed on that, carbide needs a bit of load to get good results. Tends to just whip the material out the way, whereas with HSS its more "peeling" it, much better for finish cuts and smaller parts I find. Same with lathes, a nicely ground HSS blank was all I used to get rivets and such made up

[@scottderyck1467]

there will always be a time and place for HSS

[@guardmanonduty5139]

@@irishwristwatch2487 I know that first hand as well, i did some beryllium copper turning at work. Needed a very fine finish so we actually cut the tool bit on the EDM so it was perfect and it worked really well for finishing. Probably could of bought better inserts than what we had for the job but programming the edm once and just recutting the bit when it got dull was easy, I feel like that route was just so much more cost effective and we didn't have to wait for new inserts to arrive.

[@irishwristwatch2487]

@@guardmanonduty5139 ahh Ive heard that stuff is a nightmare to work with, never used it myself though. How'd you find the BeCu?

[@clutchboi4038]

I don't think he was saying HSS should never be used, just that it shouldn't always be used because it is cheaper. Nice input though.

[@leonschumann2361]

the guy who made the thumbnail needs a bonus 😂

[@rayrocha4189]

I have used hss when I am not sure about the rigidity of a part setup that I can’t improve economically otherwise always carbide. It doesn’t happen very often. I have even made tooling out of tool steel for special jobs that needed a very fast turn around. So to me having an expertise in a range of tooling and the the knowledge of when best to apply it is important. Especially when replicating parts designed when Cnc machines were not in use. Like for instance parts for the f1 rocket engine. They can be very difficult to make in todays machine shops

[@grahamw824]

I worked at a shop that was leading in cnc and most 5axis capability in western canada. they had twin spindle/twin turret lathes, many 5 axis machines multiple pallets. An fms system where 3 machines could inter change with 40 different pallets/jobs. A large vertical and many multi pallet verticals. We at some points used hss endmills where carbide wouldn't work. But we'd run these hss endmills (niagara roughers) at 400ipm at 8000rpm facing and grooving some big precision rings for a bearings and magnetics company. For the most part, carbide will do the trick 99% of the time, but sometimes hss is needed.

[@D3kKromb0x]

The shop I work in finally replaced a 40 year old CNC Lathe with a bar feeder last year after the manager/supervisor had spent several years fighting corporate trying to get a new one in the budget. They wisely put me in charge of the new machine (Doosan Lynx 2100 LSYB), I'm still fine tuning things and going back and forth with our programmer (it certainly helps that I also learned the code necessary and can edit it myself on the fly) and the shop is sill largely allergic to carbide tools, but all the same I've made it my general mission with the new machine to be getting most parts out in half the time or less than the old machine took even if the setup takes a little longer (because of more tooling). I took one part that we run a lot of which required two ops with the second one being on a different machine entirely and hour long setups with over 11 minutes of combined cycle time plus additional secondaries down to a single op on this new machine in 3 minutes and 52 seconds of cycle time and no secondaries. In the last year I have eliminated so many secondaries, combined multiple ops, and just pushed speeds and feeds up from the old low and slow mentality. My work station has 4 drill presses, a manual horizontal mill, and a second manual lathe and they are all barely ever used any more, parts come out of the new machine DONE in less time and with better tolerances. My supervisor/programmer has gotten fairly comfortable with how much of a madman I am compared to anyone else in the shop. I ask the questions and perform the "insane science experiments" nobody else thinks of like "Hmmm, this threading cycle that the programmer sent me which runs at 600 RPM because that is the best the old machine could manage without crossing the threads... I wonder if the new machine can do it at 2500 RPM..." (Answer: It can, and the threads look so much better than they ever did before thanks to having a decent surface speed on the cutter.) Now if only we could use this example to convince corporate that the various manual grinders, mills, and bridgeports they keep around which were probably clunkers when they were first manufactured back during WWII should all be sent to the scrap dumpsters where they belong. Asking us to grind a +/- 0.00015 tolerance on a part out of a machine that has 0.03 of slop/backlash is so incredibly frustrating, and we have to power on the machine then let it spin empty for like 3 hours to warm up in the morning before it stops wandering all over the place from one cut to the next before we can even get started on it. Even newer used machines would probably be better than these clunkers that were already rattling themselves across the floor in the age of the dinosaurs.

[@poisonouslead85]

I could probably give those old manual tools a home.

[@spencervoisin7622]

High speed steel has its place even in a modern shop, shaper bits come to mind because HSS can be resharpened and reused more and more times than carbide, not to mention grinding custom shapes, or even running softer gummy metals like aluminum or copper because you can get a sharper edge on HSS than carbide, I keep a bit of it in my toolbox for certain cases

[@Kumquat_Lord]

Taps as well.

[@phuckyocouch9098]

Just get a Garr or iscar carbide aluminum endmill with the zrn Coating 3fl you'll run thousands and thousands of parts on one and itll keep going. And you'll be able to run ungodly feeds and speeds like 1300 surface feet with feed rates well over 100ipm. I had one that I kept in my box that lasted 1-2 years.

[@MarioAPN]

​@phuckyocouch9098 if you are making your tools in house, selling them, using them in house, that can justify hss. Nothing else.

[@phuckyocouch9098]

@MarioAPN really the only reason I see is if you need a form tool in the shape of something that doesn't exist and have the grinding equipment to pull it off or taps. Carbide taps are trash in most cases and good luck getting it out when it breaks.

[@MarioAPN]

@phuckyocouch9098 true. We are using unc and one other known taps manufacturer and I can't recall it right now. We are also manufacturing taps in house, but they are not as good, unfortunately. Making your own tool is great. This is average size shop, 2500 people are working in it, there are tons of material being turned and milled every day. You kinda want your own tool manufacturing piece of company when you are doing that. They are buying iscar inserts, but that is almost everything. They are coating it, but it is not near carbide. Carbide is doing magic. Edit: the other one is unis.

[@steinarne79]

HSS... High speed steel.....It's not gonna be circles arou.....oooh...its a story ! !! You got me there! I just gotta say... If your leaders don't want to delve into a spreadsheet that will tell them their parts with be X% more profitable, X% faster and still X%lesser cost for the customer... You are hereby compelled to find new work place. Because your current work place is a living dead entity, you need to find work before everyone else at your work - is your competition towards the local shop that runs it as Jessie depicts!

[@cembellsteve]

To elaborate on my last comment. I have been in the Heat exchanger business for the last 26 yrs. When I started we were using old Cleveland oil hole drill that you had to resharpen. Running on old CNC machines with Windows 98 controls. We could only run about 8.5"/min. on a drill 3/4" dia. Now we have large CNC gantry machines made by Quickmill 120"x120" 75Hp spindles and Fanuc controls. Now we are able to run KSEM drills at a minimum of 23.0"/min. What a large jump form the old tooling. It was like stepping out of a time machine into the NOW! Was the best move we have ever done. Now only if we could find people to run said machines.... It would make life much better. We have to plant and grow our own machinist. Love your talks. All of the old guys are dying off. Its getting harder to find people we can talk to about the old days. Thanks

[@poisonouslead85]

Just upgrading the controls is a massive improvement. In the 3D printing world guys are seeing huge gains in process time and quality by pulling their old control boards and going to modern controls using the Klipper firmware. Deep mid-process tuning on a 3D print is incredible and it wasn't possible previously because 3D printing gcode files are massive and it would take too much CPU to edit 1000's of commands at once. Old and cheap machines are getting new leases on life through better controls.

[@saschafunk1644]

In the last ten years, our machine shop invested more than 11 million Euro in carbide tools and new cnc software for the older machines. One time at year, our machinists getting a two week workshop in house to learn the latest applications of the new CAD/CAM software. So we always keeping the staff up to date.

[@robs4193]

This video is timely, accurate, and full of truth! Thanks for posting it!

[@scottrobinson466]

Your point is 100% correct. No business can compete in today’s economy with decade old technology. But just to prove that point, please do a video demonstrating the limitations of HSS. That is definitely worth the effort and would be highly educational… I have heard the same rediculace comment from a manager who thought HSS can be used economically, slower yes, but cheaper to buy. For those of us who use carbide know this is absurd!

[@tdg911]

Think like a peasant you will always be a peasant. What you think you become. Plain and simple. Much love and gratitude.

[@adam-xl9ft]

Lots of tool and die shops in manufacturing plants use hss and clapped out old machines because they don’t run 24/7 and there’s only a few guys in the shop. But those few guys are usually absolute wizards and can dream up a solution to get production back up and running

[@seraphim1833]

Keep doing what you do. Its inspiring to know that there's folks out there in this trade that strive for efficiency and constant improvement.

[@dowlewis8307]

This was a great video with a really good message. It was not titled very well in my opinion. I clicked on it wondering if I’d find the typically great advice and techniques for running cheaper tooling. I’m not dissatisfied with the video in the least. I just kept waiting for tips and tricks for running HSS tools which which never came. Oh well. There will undoubtedly be more awesome content to come. Keep up the good work boys.

[@7891ph]

The shop I'm at right now isn't on the exact cutting edge of technology, but the owner isn't afraid to invest in quality machines, and at least decent tooling. A brand new Haas ST-40 lathe landed just last month, with a 50 taper VF-6 three months ago, with a Yama Seiki lathe about the same size capacity as the ST-40 (can't remember the model #). We still stock some new HSS tooling, but it's primarily intended for the two manual boring mill's, as HSS is a lot more forgiving of old machines than carbide is, especially when the newest one top's out at 1800 RPM with feed's only up to about 50 IPM max.

[@hectordominguez7143]

I think unfortunately some shops are too focused on getting the work out fast with only what they have that they don't stop to consider this. Most may simply not take the time needed to analyze their process efficiency because they're in such a rush that it would be faster to do it the slow way they know then learn the new fast way.

[@TheDandyMann]

Or they're too set in their ways to even think of changing things like my shop. We have parts and tooling that haven't been touched in 5 years or more. And there's plenty of outside space where they could store so many unneeded things and free up space.

[@nwfpv8681]

I worked at a mold shop that strictly used HSS cutters. we even made our own fly cutters. I learned a lot of fundamental machining skills in that shop. the work environment was toxic so I ended up quitting machining and went to school for mechanical engineering. but that shop used HSS because the mills were ran hard and breaking a tool off in the mold would cause thousands and thousands of dollars in damage. the HSS was able to be cut out by carbide end mills if something happened. the HSS end mills also had better chatter characteristics. all of the parts we made were aluminum and on the rare occasion tool steel for mold slides and what not. HSS still has a profound and valid place in the machining world still and I will continue to use HSS where I am now. carbide is great if your doing production or if its your preference, but having the ability to rescue a part thats had a HSS tool broken off in it is invaluable.

[@varmint243davev7]

Even as a garage hobby machinist, I love me some carbide. Just remember, do not take your brand new USA carbide 1/2" end mill out of the packaging by grabbing the flutes 😞

[@johndonlan5956]

But that's something you're not likely to do twice!

[@johndonlan5956]

Then there's a positive approach! It's that kind of thinking that makes America great!!! 🤗

[@BPond7]

The best lessons in life, are always the most painful! 🖖😀

[@greeneyesfromohio4103]

I always grab them by the flutes at work, but I always wear gloves lol

[@jasonstewart3338]

That's half the fun 🤣

[@jakubhostinsky4482]

Wow, this applies also to IT sector. I'm glad that in my business I'm not counting money, not trying to save every penny. I love to invest everything I earn into the new equipment.

[@nickdovgi]

Always used carbide at work but recently started milling 6AL-4V titanium on my little manual mill at home and I was honestly extremely surprised with the cheapo 4-flute HSS Endmills that came with the machine, although Im spinning them pretty slow and taking small passes I was still very impressed with them.

[@rickyhammer6832]

Carbide is too brittle for Ti,always use m42 cobalt end mills for roughing,finish carbide is Fine.

[@paradiselost9946]

made a throttle shaft from some 7mm, only stuff that was cheap, ground, at 7mm... give it a shot! the slot saw was an interesting experience. only took two. i learnt to break taps and grind them down before starting. M3 in Ti aint good!

[@That1Carson]

Funnily enough I actually have (looks exactly like it) the hss end mill pictured in the thumbnail. It's a 1 inch Niagara hss 2 flute end mill which the shank tapers down to 3/4.

[@Sara-TOC]

LOVE the thumbnail! I'm glad you mentioned tool holders Jessie! Many forget that even tool holders wear, and need to be replaced to maintain proper function. A bad tool holder only increases both set-up and machine operation time.

[@randyscorner9434]

Always optimize the most limited capacity in your shop. People tend to learn over and over this same lesson, and it's not just machine shops, but software developers, computer design, and even timber operations. "Penny wise and pound foolish" still applies.

[@monad_tcp]

I'm a literal software developer. I know a lot of bosses that would save $300 not buying memory, and make the programmer lose at least 2h of productivity a day waiting for the computer to do its job. Amazing foolish. I'm like, are you stupid or what ? do you think you are really saving money by not giving the best possible computer to a programmer ? The salary of the person for 1 month is more expensive than any computer will ever be. If the programmer has to wait a minute for the computer you are already losing money. Computers are ridiculously cheap machines. Which is why I watch those real machine that work metal amuses me, that's the real deal that makes everything, computers are just toys that move data, but not atoms. I remember once having a discussion with a customer, man, you spend $60K on that brand new truck for your business, why don't you spend $1K for a computer that you use as a tool to optimize it ? he would say that computers are "expensive" and only have one, then complain when they break... Did you lose what ? an entire day or invoices ? what's expensive now ? How much did you save by spending only $300 in a computer instead of $1000 ? you lost 8h of sales, now what ? was that worth ? For once, I thought a lesson to a customer, but my boss never let me talk to the customers anymore... oh yes, exploit the customer making him use the worst possible software and hardware, I quit not long after. I'm to solve problems, not create more.

[@sparksandchips]

Man you said a mouthful here…. I worked at shops like that years ago….. finally went to one that was forward thinking and such a difference….

[@johnkelley9877]

I agree! You buy cheap you get cheap. No maintenance? No parts and no profit. But some managers simply do not understand this.

[@esavage8855]

Ever since I’ve been in the machining industry (which hasn’t been that long only 5 years) I’ve almost exclusively used carbide the only exception being drills. The only time I only time I used HSS when when I was in tech but even there they realized almost the entire industry was using carbide so they actually switched the majority of their tooling to carbide

[@shoktan]

Where I work, quality always supersedes delivery (within reasonable limits of course). If you can get the job done with HSS and deliver quality parts on time, fair enough. But if you need to make several dozen (or hundreds) of parts a month, as a machine programmer and operator you are responsible for doing the cost/benefit analysis to save money while maintaining acceptable quality. More often than not that will lead to acquiring more expensive tooling that reduces cycle time and increases part quality and can guarantee a new contract with a happy customer.

[@bannickartem7624]

It depends what you need to do. Sometimes HSS can safe your Ass. But most of the time Carbide is the better option.

[@PBMS123]

The only time I can think of that, is if you need a part made NOW, and you need to make a lathe form tool. Thats it.

[@keithhansen3963]

I agree Bannick. Sharp HSS can leave incredible finishes even over carbide. It does have a place in the shop.

[@johnbezaire1255]

Plastics HSS can be a much better finish.

[@Chris-du7hi]

If you are getting a better finish with hss you aren't buying the right carbide. Sharp polished carbide exists, you can run it 5x faster and keep getting that finish 10x longer. Tho I'd agree if its a special tool for a couple parts and its big tooling the savings from hss may be worth it.

[@nerd1000ify]

@@PBMS123 unstable cutting conditions, old machines with low spindle speed, heavy interrupted cut... HSS is good basically in conditions where you keep breaking carbide.

[@oldscratch3535]

As far as I know, we only use 1 HSS tool and we're in the process of proofing a new program that replaces that tool with a carbide boring bar with insert. We had 2 fires in the same machine and we think its from that tool. Its a 10 degree tapered end mill that we use to make a cone. The end mill does the roughing and a small carbide boring bar brings it to final tolerance and finish parameters. Surprisingly, the end mill does really well if the flood coolant is properly used. It only cuts in the z-axis. We have our tool life counter set to 300 parts, but when I replace them, the end mill still looks brand new. I will sometimes let it run a few more parts if I'm busy with something else. I think the fires were from guys changing tools and moving the coolant lines and forgetting to re-aim them. That's the only HSS I've ever seen in the whole building. Maybe the tool and die guys have some, but everything I use is carbide and it is not cheap. We have some custom drills that are $300-$500 a piece and some of them do not get many parts b/c of the material and how the part has to be machined. That HSS end mill is like $30 and makes about $17K worth of parts and still has life. One of our $300 custom carbide drills only makes about $5k worth of parts before it breaks or its dull. The material its drilling is brutal though and its gotta be like a 20x diameter depth hole.

[@MrDillon2029]

The shop I work at we always have coolant spraying all over our tools their all carbide too but we are hoggin some material out aluminum 28-30k rpm’s 700 inches a minute lol 😂 I work on mag3 by makino. Machining has been a fun and interesting thing to learn and I still have soooooooo much to learn

[@markdavis304]

Very good points Jessie! Most of the time, the cheapest options out there are not the best value. Money spent in the right areas will make your life easier, and help you make more $.

[@douglaspierce7031]

Place I'm at now has a new owner who was a banker before becoming a shop owner. He brought me on about a year ago to replace the programmer that was retiring. Things have been progressing slowly because with exception of 2 or 3 people, everyone there are in their 60's. I programmed a part in 17-4 and the machinist came to me and said "we don't run 17-4 that fast" I checked everything and said it looks good to me. He was still a little pissy about it so, I told him if it doesn't work lunch is on me. He never came back for that lunch...

[@Fullion-CA]

Whole heatedly agree! I have worked in shops that had huge monthly tool budgets and brought in tooling that was current to replace tooling that wasn't. Shop I am in now still thinks high performance drills are a waste of money and hand taps are still better than machine taps (Spiral point and spiral flute). Its both annoying to the workers and a running joke around the shop.

[@irishwristwatch2487]

Place I apprenticed at only used HSS. Having a carbide endmill was an unbelievable feat. We also had to repair the machines ourselves. AFAIK the old guys that trained me retired and now theyre in the shit. Granted it was prototyping, so no real need, but even so

[@EvilBrit89]

I maintain and repair my GEMINI

[@d4rkeYcs]

The thumbnail is just pure gold :D

[@jasondk5127]

Amen! I proved to our owner that carbide drills can out perform HSS 4 to 1 after that there was no stopping.

[@paladin50554]

The shop I work at does still use a few HSS endmills, but we only ever use them to to create flats at the bottom of some drill holes. They are just barely removing any material so will can get hundreds of uses out of them. For serious milling we only use carbide.

[@teo60hz]

These words are gold! This is exactly the situation I work in since 7 years and I am 26 years old. Shop owners like the ones you mentioned just keep open minded and potentially good programmers from growing up. Sad.

[@sk8crtn]

We use A LOT of HSS in our shop. However, we're a manual only shop.

[@benjaminordonez779]

Thanks for the VALUE JESSIE! YOUR A GREAT MACHINIST!

[@iamthepeterman54]

Love these concepts. Good video!

[@frostbitevinnie]

Ah heck, my first machine shop was all hss and all manual machines. Even our bore bars we had to hand grind hss blanks. It sucked but I did learn quite a bit about hand sharpening.

[@davidbarr707]

I started working in a small machine shop where the boss was open to all kinds of input about ideas to make his machine processes faster. If I suggested it he'd say ok let's order the tool and give it a shot. Because of that I was always playing around with feeds and speeds and watching the program as I was running the parts looking for unnecessary moves and eliminating them. I left that shop, even though I loved it there, for benefits and more money. I went to a bigger shop where I was doing things that the programmer there didn't understand because that wasn't the way they always did it. He didn't program. He just drew the part up and tool pathed it. It ran at standard tooling feeds and speeds and God help you if you changed it. So when I got shifted to night shift I'd run proper feeds and speeds and after I got my production out of the way, I'd change them back and go hang out in the break room the rest of the night. I sometimes would hit my production within 3 hours for an 8 hour shift. That's how bad it was. Carbide isn't the best tool for every job. I have found that it's pretty much worthless on aluminum. It sticks to it like bubblegum on dentures. 316l stainless is rough on it. I have found that 100% cobalt cuts through 316 like butter. I agree though if you are machining mild steel and you are not using carbide you are wasting a lot of money.

[@sicstar]

Thats one of the most epic thumbnails i seen on youtube so far :D And for people that love thier HSS tools on modern CNC machines here is how i / we (at work) do it, buy good tooling, and then run it maybe till it breaks or short before that, then back off a bit and you know it can handle it (or talk with your toolguy, they usually quite competent) and then send it. I bought the endmill 3xD ima use the endmill 3xD and not just scratching the corners off it :| And again that thumbnail is epic :D

[@MK-tu1zh]

I was shopping for tools, I needed a rougher, I found a carbide .75" rougher for $150. I looked at the HHS endmills and the same cutter was $99. I can guarantee that carbide cutter is lasting over twice as long as a HHS endmill rougher. I am now looking at doing all my roughing with fast federate shallow cut insert endmills. $30 worth of inserts that I can flip 4 times.

[@repalmore]

I knew this farmer that would work on his equipment all the time and he didn't have a nut and bolt bin as well as extra parts and the like. He would search for a half hour, drive 25 miles round trip and come back with three bolts in his hand and say "see, I saved a whole bunch of money by not having these sitting on the shelf for years waiting for me to need them" totally ignoring his time looking for them, time and fuel it took him to get buy them. Buying them retail instead of wholesale by the pound and he was so proud of how much money he saved. Can't cure stupid. Just like farmers that treat farming as a vocation instead of a business. The business owners drove a pickup and were much more successful than the farmers that drove tractors. Some people just can't see the big picture.

[@gilbertotejeda4167]

I've been machining since 94 I had the first Puma mx 2000 back in 2005 .It takes money to make money!

[@kkknotcool]

I know people with cheap machines and cheap tooling who make more then people with nice tooling and machines. The hard thing for machinist to accept is machining isn't a super valued commodity. It's more important financially that you serve the right market then that you serve an average market really well.

[@noeljochum]

We run HSS-E too… i bought a Carbide mill from my own money an run it at work😂

[@srck4035]

Even in training I hated hss.. Now in Germany if you learn a job there's usually two tests, one after 15 months and one after 40 months.. First test me and my coworker rushed through the milling portion of the test with carbide end mills we got from our job side. Shaved almost 2 hours of of our total time. The inspectors had us stop the machine since we used so high feed rates that they thought we had no idea what we do here :D

[@JayVon_Ro]

I prefer carbide. But I was just given a 700lbs box of HSS cobalt tooling. SOOOO I'm going to be using that until its melted slag

[@Austin17070]

Forwarding this video to my GM. I agree 1000% and I'm tired of calling in repairmen to service our old machines every couple of months and losing a week or more of spindle time. I'm a young Engineer/Machinist/Programmer who's totally fed up with the old way of thinking. It's time to make some money!!

[@1pcfred]

Who are you making money off of?

[@latenightmachinist5307]

That moment you realize which Machine Shop he’s talking about because youve worked their too… I enjoyed that place!

[@phillhuddleston9445]

All I have are manual laths and Bridgeports in my shop one being CNC and I only use carbide, I had ran some aluminum jobs in the past with 1-1/4" and 1-1/2" HSS endmills that did fine but anything 3/4" or less it really doesn't make sense even on manuals. The competition you mentioned is true in a job shop but a captive shop with specific parts for your companies products can get away with the old, standard way of doing things a bit better with slightly older technology sometimes depending on the product being produced. Good advice overall though.

[@EulerFink]

WOW, I work in a totally different area, but it fit so well for us too.

[@mftmachining]

Guys, what do you think of the Mauser Präzoplan 300 machine? Creates unblieveable surfaces.

[@EvoKeremidarov]

Even as manual home machinist i believe in quality over quantity when it comes to tools. In the competitive world of comercial CNC machining quality tool is a must not even and option. CNC is literally the definition of technology, advancement and development. There is no way a shop that wants to stay competitive and grow will achieve that without investing in to tmquality tools and machines, you just gotta keep up with the times.

[@dr.h9309]

Many of the biggest aerospace shops are still buying HSS for taps, end mills etc in M1, M3, M7, M42 etc. If your machines aren't in good condition or your vices are weak or spindles bad, HSS is your answer as the high hardness of carbide is going to be brittle possibly leading to chipping? I think for low production HSS is your answer as well. Just my opinion correct me if I'm wrong. Love the videos and so bummed I missed you at IMTS this year.

[@desertpunk6705]

It all depends. Know your business and know what matters. A machine purchase that would have been perfect for your old company might be a boat anchor for your current company.

[@donovanchaas4826]

I got to experience my shop switching to 100% carbide. I took home 5 1' x 2' bins full to the top with fresh hss resharps (still in wax).

[@thermonucleardevice]

Lol me too. I got a few hundred pounds of hss tooling, from endmills to form tools, to slitting saws when we cleaned out the old cabinets in the back of the shop. Carbide is the only way to go if you're trying to turn a profit.

[@meadball1]

I work at a company that purchased 2 rebuilt Fadal CNC Milling Machines this past year. One machine was originally built in 94' and the other in 96'. The owner bases his purchases on things he's had good experiences with in the past and he hasn't quite left the 1990's. I could have slapped him!

[@Mike-ff7ib]

I loved that cover image!!!

[@BuddhistZenDave]

My new shop has fixtures that screw into the plate, but still have to be indicated every time we drill. It's only one hole straight through. 15 sec part, 30 mins of indicating.

[@kylehampton6078]

So I go to Lake Central High School in Indiana in our school shop we use a half half mix of both carbide and tool steel

[@chadtarbet4720]

One-off jobs in small job shops it makes sense to use HSS and even manual machines where production numbers are low and complexity is low but precision requires more than a hand drill. There are also jobs that would take more time to program than to put it in a manual machine and go to town. Lastly those experienced machinists haven't always been. They started somewhere breaking a lot of tools learning the hard way and for them HSS made education cheaper.

[@Eluderatnight]

There are 3 times to use HSS; clearing mill/casting scale, un even surfaces, and if your part/set-up rings like a bell

[@GeneralChangFromDanang]

And certain plastic jobs.

[@Eluderatnight]

@@GeneralChangFromDanang Can you give an example. I only do 300 series or Aluminum.

[@GeneralChangFromDanang]

@@Eluderatnight HSS tends to have a slightly sharper edge because of the lack of coatings so it works well in most plastics.

[@allenbrown7820]

The thumbnail looks like Barry’s bathroom stall rendition of Jessie . Classic!

[@mattwilliams3909]

Don't forget to take that paper off your steel before you set it up. It'll clog your coolant pumps eventually. Great video though!

[@michaelflores7810]

Great representation. All true. Real talk boy has passion. Nice video

[@davidrockey7190]

Well said point made we're trying to programmers and people know how to set up a hard to find and when we do we take care say no more you guys keep up the good work I still use high speed too sometimes it's your friend

[@barrysetzer]

Great points Jessie. And great thumbnail 😂

[@ZoeyR86]

I had that same problem many times. But I will say a good HSS will hold a sharper edge for machining plexiglass and a lot of plastics but out side that I will spend thousands of dollars on carbide and ceramics and I only have a few haas machines in my personal garage 😆 titan is one of the few places I have found that had my same mind set. I went to NTMA and was constantly dealing with the old timers holding me back I get project prints walkup to a haas or funac and type the gcode entirely by hand load up MY OWN ENDMILLS and hit run drop my feeds do a quick air run above my stock as a sanity check drop out remove my offsets and hit go 600-1000sfpm with full depth cobs and swap to a finish and a spring pass the avg student cycle times was 5-8mins for the same project mine was under 2mins and every time I ran the teachers slowed it down and made me 😡 . Like " wtf it's 6160 with a 3 flute kentametal leave me projects alone near the end of my fun at doing circles around that staff at NTMA I competed at the SkillsUSA Gcode challenge won 1st for state of California took 5th in the national championship but it was fun. While I basically own an entire machine shop it's mostly a hobby as I'm an engineer for an fortune 100 company now. I spend my free time design custom 3dprinters and CNC machines. Also I was a haas technician before I even went to NTMA. I went partly because I was bored and wanted access to machines. After spending 2 years fighting cancer

[@under6977]

Amen! Wish every shop owner saw this.

[@clawsoon]

This is great advice when interest rates are near zero and demand is high. When interest rates go up and demand goes down, it's a lot easier to go bankrupt if you've got big payments to make on equipment than if you can lay off some employees and break even. If you're asking "why are so many companies working the same way they did 30 years ago?" it's because those are the companies that survived through all the economic ups and downs of the past 30 years.

[@xxhasudin]

Place I work we have a 1937 barber Coleman still in use on some parts. Everything has its place.

[@JanBinnendijk]

I did a test myself.. i was running Titanium parts with a 4 mm endmill.. i started with the cheapest carbide mills i could find.. did 10 parts with it.. then.. i took an endmill that was double the price.. and production went up to 40 parts.. so per part these endmills were half the price... also i could ramp up the feed so i saved a lot of time as well..i went from 45 minutes to 30 minutes per part..

[@mohammedalbattal77]

Believe it or not.... I swear to you guys, last year I worked on a machine that was made in 1996, which means it's a year older than me....the company had a computer running XP...with SolidWorks 2007 and Autodesk powermill 2006 ... the CNC machine had about a hundred diseases ... the simplest rang out in a spindle with a value of 0.3 mm ... its production was of poor quality and took a long time, yet I was able to deal with it .... Honestly, I learned a lot from this machine... such as patience, silence, and restraining myself from bad talk 😂

[@chrisblight6069]

One of our CNC Mills is a Hurco BMC20, the other a BMC30; the BMC20 is a 1990 machine. Most of our machines are very old, they still work though, still make money. The electronics is where it all goes wrong, if it does.

[@poisonouslead85]

@@chrisblight6069 And I bet there's plenty of performance to be gained by replacing the controls and electronics with modern stuff. Controls can hold good machines back and separate good machines from great machines.

[@chrisblight6069]

@@poisonouslead85 We did that to an even older machine many years ago. It worked fine, the control was a little clunky to use but the integration worked well. At the moment replacing the control would cost a lot of money, something my boss doesn't have so much of. But yes, replacing old electronics is a good option, apart from buying a new machine.

[@nebuchadnezzar47]

whats the video on this topic that you were talking about? like what is it called?

[@ericed69]

This video is so true. The problem sits squarely on ownership. Ownership only wants to see money coming in and only for them. My company wants to go after new jobs with our old, under rated, and incapable equipment, then blame the employees for not wanting to do the jobs. It's not that we don't want to do the job's, it's the fact that we cannot complete these jobs with the machines or tooling we have. As shop manager, I will refuse jobs that I know will put an undue hardship on the overall shop and or employee moral. We will waist so much time trying to figure out how to do a job and or destroyed tooling, broken machine or damaged / substandard parts. I wholly believe in continuing to learn, take on new challenges, and push yourself, but not at the expense of others. It is supposed to be a TEAM effort from top to bottom. We learn as a team, we grow as a team and we listen as a team, this gives the best chance of success for any company. Every company that I have personal seen or been involved in has died because the top stop listening to the ones doing the work.

[@DusanTasev]

I like all you're Videos. 👍

[@markjones4186]

The only place that I know of where a HSS / Cobalt tool will still keep pace with carbide is if you have a 3 spindle and you are throwing 2" Crest Cut end mills at titanium. The price per cube is still competitive with carbide. Otherwise I don't know of another instance

[@paladiumearth7178]

what's more of a nightmare at the place i work, whenever we need to order something for a job such as a tool or replacement part, is that it takes "two weeks" before the order can be sent out to the distributor/manufacturer, plus however long it takes them to send what we ordered for, and allota jobs have deadlines or end up having to sit on our hands because we have nothing else to do while we wait for the order to arrive. like, what propose is it for an order needing to wait two weeks before being sent?

[@premchandchille]

I have a question sir what the programming software do you use for machining.

[@TITANSofCNC]

We use Mastercam.

[@bradyoung6663]

Reminds me of the phrase "Stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime". I'm a bright side kind of guy though, so I have to admit I got damned good at sharpening drills the old fashioned way.

[@THECARDGODS]

Great video!!

[@bmbunch8825]

And we found someone who is very focused on their part of the industry and don't have a real understanding of running and machine shop. I wouldn't even hire someone if they couldn't set up and run a machine without having all brand new carbide and tooling. Unless you can show me how to do the math to purchase all the tooling needed and still be competitive on the job when there's only 2 parts to make and they need them tomorrow. I'm willing to bet most people would turn that away because they can't do it. We charge an arm and leg and spend 15 minutes grinding up a drill or tool bit if we don't have something on hand. We only keep the basics on hand in carbide and not much over .500". This is just one type of work we do tho. We also have jobs where we do purchase all the tooling specifically for that job, but that depends on the parts, the customer, and industry. There's so many factors in this game and y'all are trying to simplify it and telling people they're wrong?

[@johndonlan5956]

When I left the metal cutting industry it was 1990. Ceramics were first coming onto the market, and companies like Sandvik, TRW, and Kennametal we're pushing their carbide inserts full tilt. Unfortunately, however, you didn't have the knowledge-base back then that you do today. You had salesman come into your shop that would sell you the newest, latest, and greatest....... But they wouldn't be able to show you how to use them efficiently. And when you called the company headquarters their people were mostly only able to tell you what size insert to use and what materials it was meant for. (No practical knowledge of feeds and speeds and depth of cut ..... They were all reading from the same sales brochures and catalogs). So you would buy carbide insert tooling, but you wouldn't use it nearly as efficiently as it could be used. Why? Because you were deathly afraid of breaking inserts.... And then having to explain that to a manager who was watching every penny. So we just did the best we could to find the most durable tool steel cutters..... And when they got dull we'd send them out for resarpening. Inefficient? You betcha! But that's the way the technology was back then. I was just starting to look into cryogenic treatment of high-speed steel and carbide tooling, which made the tools keep their edge longer...... Companies like Amcry were first ramping up to provide that service. Heck, we were cutting some nasty materials: hastelloy-B, hastelloy-C, monel 400 on a daily basis for parts used in the oil and chemical industries. And the knowledge of how to cut these materials -- efficiently -- was just not there. In today's age you have a much better knowledge base, and even much better carbide tooling. Solid carbide end Mills were almost unheard of in 1990 (and solid ceramic end Mills we're still in the dream stage). Now...... you have companies like "Titans of CNC" who pushed the edge of the metal cutting envelope...... And are willing to tell you how to do it (and show you videos explaining exact feeds and speeds and depths of cut for specific materials). That was unheard of back in 1990! Every shop had their own version of how to handle the black art of metal cutting..... And they weren't willing to share it share it with anybody!!!! When I think of what it would have been like to have this knowledge, freely given and demonstrated by Titans of CNC -- back then in the late 80s and early 90s -- I can imagine that our capabilities would have been almost a limitless! (And as a manufacturing engineer I would have been "kicking ass!"..... Instead of just struggling along with the tooling and technology and knowledge base of the day). I gladly take my hat off to Titans of CNC for their open sharing of the manufacturing capabilities of the metal cutting industry today. You have not only made our job easier (shop owners, manufacturing engineers, programmers, machine operators, inspectors)...... But in sharing this knowledge you have helped make America strong again in the metal cutting industry. And maybe...... Just maybe..... We might start opening up factories again and start to manufacture again....... Now that we know how........... Again. Thank you Titan! 😉

[@TheFallenTribute]

You realize these guys are used car salesmen right?... just in a modern form. They are wearing shirts with Kennametal on them, every single brand they use they have sponsorship deals with. Videos are interesting don't get me wrong but so are the videos you can find on every tooling or machine dealer they are repping and promoting. Every video is essentially an ad.

[@johndonlan5956]

Yes it's pretty much understood by just about everybody on the planet that these KZbin videos are "product placement" ads for specific companies. But I knew Kennametal 'back in the day', and their product line has increased and strengthened quite a bit...... As has also their knowledge base and ability to impart that knowledge to the customer. And to have companies like Titans of CNC be willing to share that knowledge..... Was unheard of 35 years ago. Back then, a company would just say "we can handle the toughest materials, the most challenging geometries, the most difficult jobs.... And do them well!"..... But they would never tell you HOW they would do it "exactly". As Shakespeare would put it..."therein lies the rub!"

[@nathanthomas8184]

Those carbide company had a video & you watched what it could do with that tool or tools of purchase & best part was loading up machine/ machines with right programmes & let FLY & ALWAYS going 20% MORE

[@mackk123]

i work at lockheed airbuss grumman and we use high carbon steel to machine everything, including high carbon steel.

[@TheEhlek23]

Wait there are shops that you can find tooling? My place it can take upwards of 30 mins to an hour to find a single common tool and a holder that will work.