My Response to Erik Cortina's "Chasing the lands is STUPID" Video

[@GunWodan]

I really recommend looking at the „Reloading is simple“ video because this looks like you‘re making it difficult for yourself. Erik breaks it down into three pretty independent factors you want to get straight. First, get the combustion right by finding a powder load with a consistent low ES. Then proceed to find the best seating depth by shooting at 100yd/m looking at the groups. 100yd is used to eliminate many of the effects you get at longer ranges. Once you got your low ES and your small groups, then proceed to shoot at 450yd, 500, 1000yd and if your groups suck, check your bullets ballistic/BC

[@ozkiwioutdoors]

This absolutely this ^^^^^^

[@josecanisales3491]

What is "ES"?

[@GunWodan]

Jose Canisales it‘s short for „extreme spread“ when measuring your muzzle velocity. Basically the difference in velocity between your highest and lowest measurements

[@nmoran2046]

GunWodan I just finished that series he says the same thing my grandfather did keep it simple smooth is fast I just started re-loading and I found those videos make a lot of sense haven’t got a chance to shoot because I live in the city but I’ve reloaded 190 rounds groups of 50 at different seat Depths different powder loads big thick blank book and my chronograph it’s gonna be a long day Edit I told my wife about this when I was doing the reloading she said I was nuts I told her I thought it was a good idea at least I’m not nuts

[@nigerovargas425]

Agree.. at 450 yards you are testing the shooter not the Ammo. Also get a couple shooting bags.

[@johnwilliams-gk1fb]

Between Erik and f-class John you will have all the information you could ever need. Will save you years of trying to reinvent the wheel. Also second the note of “he said 100 yards”, too many variables at 450. If it performs and is stable at 100 it will be at 450 as well bar bad bullet construction. Oh he covers that as well.

[@johnwilliams-gk1fb]

After reading comments I too agree, a ladder test should be done first, the most stable node should be selected then proceed to seating test. It takes time but it’s a proven method. Only last thing, throw away the mono pod. They suck at every type of shooting. A bag or tripod for rear support always.

[@rdsii64]

@@johnwilliams-gk1fb I tried one that monopod. After the first 5 shots I went back to a pinch bag.

[@bichettereds]

I got 3 minutes in and already knew you shouldn’t be advising others.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

That’s great...

[@takedeadaim8671]

You made it further than I did

[@takedeadaim8671]

It’s a compar-a tor (comparator), wherever you went to school, get your money back!

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I’m beginning to think that I don’t want to be any part of the long range shooting community, most of them act like you.

[@seanf818]

Bro listen to your self, your an average shooter, you havnt put the time in nor won multiple national events, the fact is you called eric stupid and you have no clue what it takes to be good, you should be humbled by some of these comments, I can already tell you didn't do alot before seating depth so I think you are missing the point of finding accuracy

[@58harwood]

He specifically says to shoots the test at 100 yards, for a reason! Go watch his videos again!

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

58harwood The group tightened up when I reached the correct seating depth, that’s the whole point of this video.

[@58harwood]

Superior Noise Reduction, one small group it not the goal, in fact Eric Specifically says not to fall for that. You need to find a node with at least two small groups in succession. You may or may not have found a good node, you won’t know until you shoot at least one more group past where you stopped. Again, go back and watch the videos, you’ve obviously missed a lot of the details.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

@@58harwood I agree wholeheartedly, I missed a lot of details. I'll be posting another video soon hopefully showing repeatable results.

[@58harwood]

Superior Noise Reduction Dude, your right there! If your next group is as good as your last, “your in”, you’ve got a decent node to work with. 👍 The reason do the test at 100 yards is to minimize the human factor, easier to aim small at 100 than 450. And, help minimize any adverse wind components. It’s not that you can’t do the test at 450, it’s just more diagnostic of the load at 100, rather than testing your ability at 450. In “our” opinion. 😎

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

58harwood see I really enjoy all constructive criticism and structured conversation, that makes sense. I may start out at 100 yards next video then go out to 450 once I get two consecutive good groups at 100, thanks for the feedback!

[@Sharberboy]

Ahhh, I too shoot myself in the foot when it comes to reloading. Telling a guy who is sponsored by Lapua that he don't know what he's talking about is a mistake I've never made.. Cudos bro.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Did you even watch the video? I was telling the guy that is sponsored by Lapua that he was right. Maybe you should actually watch videos before you leave some stupid comment.

[@Sharberboy]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 well that was delayed. So you're telling me and everyone else who commented something similar, that we all have the wrong idea of this video?

[@philipm33]

@@Sharberboy this is delayed too. You never watched the video lolz

[@bradleyswasey6778]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Erik uses an arbor press with a pressure gauge, case expander for correct neck tension, inline seating dies and a custom made tuner on the end of a high quality barrel. This is just what I have gathered from watching his videos. I learn something new everytime he puts out a video. His videos are a great asset for anyone wanting to improve there reloading skills. I believe the accurate shooting part comes from the individual. The more you put into it the more you will get out of it.

[@jefferypritchard1197]

450 yards pointless for accuracy testing

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jeffery Pritchard Ummmmm what?

[@jefferypritchard1197]

fairly basic i would have thought at 100 yd you are testing rifle/ammunition accuracy with very little shooter or weather error but at 450 yd testing unproven loads all errors even very small ones are amplified. you said it yourself ,you should have used a bag and not a mono. 100 yd test then 450 yd with the same loads would have given a clearer result. @@superiornoisereduction1211

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jeffery Pritchard cool, you should make a video since you know exactly what you’re doing.

[@be350ka]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 well you said that you were new to reloading or just got into it recently. As with any new procedure where there are many details it is easy to mix up the process. You did, it happens and you learned. However, if someone is making a suggestion and supplying reasons as to why your method might result in future confusion and frustration, it might be worth listening or taking note. Thanks for making the video! It’s good to see this in practice. The only way to see true results is to make mistakes and take advice from those who have been there before. Keep it up. Looking forward to your next video.

[@DenverLoveless]

🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

[@jat2409]

I've been loading for 35 years and you know what I found out besides the basics and being safe? My gun dictates on what it likes, not me! Listen to your rifle and listen closely!

[@wilfdarr]

I've never heard anyone say “jamming is dangerous”. It's just a pain it the arse of you have to clear an unfired round and the bullet gets pulled out of the shell, then there's powder everywhere and it's a goat show. That's why, not because it's dangerous.

[@scottbutler2761]

Strange i followed Erik Cortina instruction 100% . i now get better and more consistent freedon sead group . You need to watch Erik Cortina's video again and again with open mind and follow 100% . You even forgot to mention to lube your projectile when finding the jamb

[@larryd1296]

You did not go far enough from the lands. My experience with a Savage LRP in 6.5 Creadmoor is that those bullets like to be "jumped" try .40 to .50 from "JAM".

[@grosminetytp5520]

I have some 0.25 MOA loads that shoot well in the lands, and others with 3 millimeters jump. Nevermind how you call it, just find the cartridge length that groups!

[@impactaustria]

Maybe it's barrel dependend how easy it is to find nodes fast with .003" seating depth graduadtions. Eric Cortina probably found this mathod for the barrels he uses which might be somewhat common in profile (harmonics). Maybe. Maybe harmonics of significantly other barrel contours (or especially with a suppressor attached) would favour greater graduations and got wider nodes. But thats all speculations.

[@wilfdarr]

“My most accurate barrel spent the last half of its life shooting 140-grain Berger Hybrids and VLDs that were jumping 0.200” to the lands.” - Sam Millard, Panhandle Precision

[@keithlivingston6973]

Eric is world class shooter I’m fairly certain he knows what he is talking about, and you should always shoot the test at 100

[@scottupatree3356]

By CHASING THE LANDS , as I understood his video. Was as the throat erodes from shooting and your bullet jump changes due to eroded lands.... leave it alone and don't re do your seating depth..... stop chasing the lands...

[@mdnghtrdr79]

1.3” 1000yd group. Nuff said.

[@78freewheeler]

@@scottupatree3356 he means don’t chase by wondering what the number ALWAYS IS. I know a guy that is the same way. He’s so worried about the number. Like obsesses over it. Erik “chases” them by shooting a group .003 longer, the same, and .003 shorter each time to see if his throat erosion is having effect on his groups yet. But he’s not worried about if it’s going away or not.

[@11C1P]

@@mdnghtrdr79 Yeah, his 1st four shots were 0.3". That was incredible. His fifth shot opened the pattern up a full inch & it's still a 1.3" group.

[@ramsaycountry1177]

How long have you been reloading? What brass and bullets? At 450 yards with quality Components you should shoot 0.5 moa or less.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Ramsay Country I covered all those questions in the video except for the brass, I’m just using once fired Hornady brass from factory ammo. I was able to achieve better results last weekend, i’ll have the video up soon.

[@Serenityindailylife]

Seating depth is just a small factor in a whole picture. Yes its somewhat important but its not as important as a proper bullet and charge load. Some barrels do not like certain bullet profiles. Some don't like certain metal blends. I have a Lilja barrel that loves cheap Sierra bullets and won't shoot anything Berger worth a damn. I have a shaw that loves Winchester silver tips but hates any bare copper bullets. The same with seating depth. Make sure you find a good bullet for your barrel and a good charge weight and then play with the seating depth as fine tuning. By good I do not mean expensive, that is never an indication of quality when you are making slugs of metal. Shot everything from hand turned exotic alloys to very cheap Remington soft points in my F-class and 3 gun rifles. Its all relative. Manufacturers don't like me as a sponsored shooter because I go with what the barrel likes, I don't tie myself to their products. Doing so is a handicap. I need all the help I can get. I will tell you that you should be weighing each bullet in the box and checking their overall dimensions if you plan on going as far as messing with depth. I have seen SMK'S that varied 15gr in the same box and 30gr differences in the same lot. It happens mainly from shipping damage or from imperfections in the jacket material. They will deny it if you ask them but it happens. Try it for yourself, i have noticed it happens less now that they weigh the boxes but it still happens. Berger is most consistent from my experience but you pay for that. Don't rule out their hunting line of bullets for precision work, some rifles like the profile on the bullets that are different (some hunting bullets are precision bullets in a different box) so I'd check elsewhere first, before stressing over seating depth. Another thing to stress is that neck tension is another thing that affects accuracy and it can be confused with seating depth changes. On some bullet profiles the bullet tapers so tension changes with different seating depths. So be careful.

[@fishingolf]

a 450yd test????? SMH

[@dg1234ify]

The tightest was at .018 and may have gotten better closer. It might have gotten the best farther away. I start at .0005 - .060 or so. Some bullets like farther than 60.

[@jeffery9752]

Maybe you should have a competition with Mr cortina

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I can't believe the number of comments that I received about how I was trying to compete with Eric Cortina. I was literally trying to demonstrate how effective his method is and how knowledgeable he is. My video was just poorly executed.

[@kencarpenter108]

It works for me, after I find the velocity node first with lowest SD/ES numbers for the powder I am using regardless of the groups it is shooting in the velocity step(if you do this?, it would have been nice if you would have mentioned it). I usually just start at .020" off the lands. I take it you saw a decrease in velocity when you moved the pill further out? It should be the opposite of what I see as since I move it in .003", it increases the pressure just enough to see 5-6fps increase per step. Thanks for the video.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

KenCarpenter Thanks for watching! Unfortunately I don’t have a chronograph yet, I’ll be getting one soon and posting some more videos.

[@darrenleigh2957]

Good job putting Erik's words into action. Thanks for sharing!

[@benjaminhaas4634]

I wish you would have told people to go watch Eric's video rather than poorly restating his process. I do like seeing your results, and putting Eric's method into action. Shoot groups at 100, minimize environmental errors. Also, something I like to do is round robin, like shoot each target with its correct round once, then go back and shoot each one with round 2, and so fourth. That keeps environmental factors and barrel heating equal between each group. Shoot at 450 once you think you have a good load worked up.

[@DenverLoveless]

I know this is a year later and surely you know this by now. Great job. You found it. But you need to go closer with that until it opens up. .0015, .0012, .009.... You'll hopefully see about 2-3 good groups in a row. The group that opens it tells you to back up one and done. Then as you throat wears You'll stay in that sweet spot longer. Good shooting to ya. For the others that may be reading., @ .020 load both directions. .023 & .017 then continue in both directions till you find the one you want. In is more pressure. Out is less pressure.

[@ruthlessone3k]

There is a whole lot more going on in a chamber than just the lands, and trying to chase down all of them is an exercise in futility. At first I thought Erik was nuts, he was telling me that all of these things I knew to be true were wrong. But his records speak for themselves.

[@jeffery9752]

Who is national champion

[@rickdavis7141]

I noticed no mention of higher pressures when your touching the lands and higher when your in the lands or is that not the case any more.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

You are correct, higher pressure if you’re touching the lands. I did mention that some people shoot like this and I don’t recommend it but I didn’t explain why.

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

Did you removed your firing pin to create a bolt free fall

[@danielcrossland6915]

the firing pin and ejector both need to be removed as the ejector wants to "push" the case against your action causing the bullet to come out of the case. i agree. if a person uses this method (i do because im poor) smoking the bullet and measuring three consistant measurements to ensure consistancy is key, at least for me. pack a lunch because you could just about starve yourself to death trying to get it done. cheers

[@MarkSeipel-j9z]

Take this any way you want. Before working on the length of your ammo do the following. 1. It appears that your scope sun shade is touching the front hand guard. You may be able to correct this by removing the sun shade, If you can not live with out the sun shade replace the front hand guard on your RPR (This was an improvement from Gen 1 to Gen 2). 2. Look up on how to use the parallex adjustment on your scope (there is one on youtube). 3. I would remove the suppressor and the thing hanging on the scope until you start getting better groups at 100m then you can add them back on to the RPR. By the way your initial ammo length (Jam length) for a magizine feed rifle should start at what you can load into the magizine, not jamming to the lands. Good luck.

[@DRHODES1979]

Appreciate the video! I would make one suggestion though. When doing load development you should really work at closer ranges. 100 or 200 would be best At 450 the wind will really effect your results. Some of those other groups could have been decent, but you wouldn't know. If you find a load that looks good, then take it out a little further.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

DENNIS 435 Thanks for the tip, my next video is coming out soon and I’ll be testing at 100 and 450 based on feedback from you guys. I enjoy a good conversation, these other yahoos can go somewhere else...

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 You can't predict a group

[@BBouncer]

Erik's method works. I've been reloading for close to 40 years and using the same method as him for 15 years or so based on an old Rick Jameson article. I was using .005 increments though instead of .his 003 (I've since switched). As he stated in a "Chasing the lands" video any load can be made to shoot by adjusting bullet seating depth.

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

You can not predict a group.

[@russstockton3784]

I would like to see what your group shot at 18 thou looks like. Maybe you found the node Cortina was talking about, but possibly not.

[@TyroneNorthcutt]

3/4 MOA at 450? Heck yeah man. Great job. Great explanation. Keep it relative, groups matter, not theory.

[@user-yr1dp7kr8g]

This guy is an obvious expert. I suggest that he watch the video again.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

That doesn’t make any sense...

[@hilife3359]

Sooo much haters! Lol I used to do load develope at 400. Easiest way without a chronograph or lab radar and a lot cheaper. Now I dont even shoot groups until I find a flat spot. Even cheaper. Thanx for sharing!

[@mr.noneyabidness]

0:15 You literally lean on your scopes optic bell with your body weight. I didn't listen to a word you said after that.

[@williamkravats1082]

Have you tried different powders and powder charges that can make a big difference when you find the right powder and powder charge

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

You take the vertical not horizontal because of the wind

[@dragonflyfab8982]

Naah! Wind can cause vertical if it's head wind or tail wind.

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

@@dragonflyfab8982 300 meters not much effect

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

@@dragonflyfab8982 do you have an email address?

[@dragonflyfab8982]

@@pierrelebrasseur8493 You can address here

[@peterwright2692]

I've been reloading for 49 years and I learnt heaps from Erik's video,given his results I'll stick with him

[@NinjaOperator00]

Dude, 450 yards test??? And, with no bag, for precision testing rounds??? Please tell me you didn't use the supressor, adding yet another variable. Watch Eric's videos again man.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

GamePlayaz the only thing the suppressor does is change your POI ever so slightly, I never shoot without it.

[@NinjaOperator00]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 My comment should have been more constructive. Awesome video and badass rifle btw, thanks for sharing! If you're keeping the supressor for testing, repeat the test at 100 to minimize wind variables at the very least, and stabilize the rifle any way you can (bag, lead sled, etc.). Eric has another good video about the 3 variables to always check when testing. Double verify charge, neck tension, seating in each test group of rounds, then test again. Then take it out back to 450. I hope that helps. Video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIeofo2AjtSpg6M

[@AlfredoRicoX]

You loaded up some ammo and didn't have great results, so you tried bullet seating depth. That's not very informative. Did you do a load development test before or did you start with a random load? Also, if you are not a very good shooter (your words), how can you tell weather the shots are a shooter problem or a bullet seating problem?

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Alfredo Rico I agree, the results were cut short but I didn’t have any more loaded ammo and I found it very interesting how the group tightened up all the sudden. I did some load development last weekend and used the seating depth in this video, shot from a better position this time. All my shots were touching each other at 450 yards, I couldn’t believe it.

[@CorbinMusso88]

Hey brother I think your handguard is either loose or not seated properly. It’s clearly angled upward toward your scope.

[@magwamagwa45110]

what is your es and look at your powder charge all of that before you shoot groups and adjust seating depth...your gun may like no jump also try other bullets they yellow box....

[@treece1]

I watched that video the other day, and tested my Jam point. Then I found my new seating depth. Was simple. Whats the big deal?

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I think the point he was trying to make was people get hung up on the distance to their lands and they should really be chasing their accuracy node.

[@jdr285]

SNR - There are actually two nodes Erik is referring to - the powder charge node (ES) and the seating depth node. (See his part 2 on same subject). He determines the powder charge node using his one time seating depth measurement (usually .020" off the jam if I understand him correctly). Then, he determines his seating depth node. And finally, determines the width of the powder charge node. I used the country boy trial-and-error method for decades and got OK results, and more recently Scott Satterlee's modified Creighton Audette method, Dan Newberry's OCW method, and Erik Cortina's method. I recently did all four methods from scratch as a learning experience. Each has its pros and cons. But for me, The EC method is the most logical and produces the best results - went from OK to WOW!. Since you are new to hand loading, I will offer this piece of advice - regardless of the method used, consistency in your methodology is key. Consistent neck tension, powder charge, and seating depth are critical to getting good results. Welcome to the world of hand loading and enjoy the journey.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jim Rogers, I’m glad I’m not the only one using the “country boy” method for testing my powder, I don’t have much experience with it but I basically just kept going up on my powder charges (not exceeding recommend charge as stated on Varget bottle) and looking for pressure signs. I found a charge that was really accurate so I’m gonna stock with it for future testing. I’ve got a long road ahead of me but I’ve enjoyed every step so far.

[@jdr285]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 LOL While the country boy method (based on knowledge transferred by word of mouth) had some success, please don't think it was ever used without some form of backup, like a good loading manual. I noticed you commented on using what was on the Varget bottle for charge development. HMMM! If you don't have at least one, get a good loading manual. I have collected many over the years and used them, and still do, extensively. The real advantage of the methods noted above (Satterlee, OCW, or EC) is that these guys are sharing their knowledge on how to read the POI's and what adjustments to consider. If you study these methods, they ALL develop the most consistent/accurate load using powder charge nodes (low ES) and seating depth nodes (tight groups). They just approach the same end result in slightly different ways. SS does seating depth first, then powder charge at 300yds or greater, DN and EC do powder charge first then seating depth at 100yds. Consistent POA is much easier at 100yds v 300yds or greater so I favor the DN and EC methods. But most important to me is EC's explanation of how to read what the POI on target is telling the shooter. It is the most comprehensive and easy to understand I have ever seen. He is right, hand loading is not that difficult. It boils down to Combustion, Harmonics, and External Ballistics.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jim Rogers I have a Hornady reloading manual but I found that it is very reserved compared to what Hodgdon recommends as a maximum powder charge, in fact the Hornady manual is almost 2 grains under for Varget.

[@gregorydelvalle7740]

If you take very careful notes, you’ll notice that powder vendors will “downgrade” their competitors powder to a lower FPS and vise versa. Product security. Why would a vendor of a one brand name give you the best result of a competitor in their own manual? Sad really. Just ask “GunBlue” he’s been gunsmithing approx 40yrs I think.

[@GaryBlankenship96b40]

I am 68 yo and been reloading 60 years or longer. Each rifle has open throat of different length based on reamer used to cut chamber. I was always told start at 10 thousands and go 3 to 5 longer to see or find sweet spot. All this is powder and primer dependant. You change any components and are back to square one. Old bench rest guys use to load at the table while shooting. They used the jam principle so all are the same . Pressures spike faster with this theory and as you said not recommended

[@ddn79]

I love that "if you have been doing it for year, doesn't mean it right" argument. Lot of people have been it that way for year because it's proven.

[@nickblackwell3684]

And by the time you do all those groups chasing that 3 thou your throat would have eroded changing it anyways

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Nicholas Blackwell 35 shots will erode the throat?

[@nickblackwell3684]

Superior Noise Reduction I was told to recheck your lands every 100 shots on a precision application as the throat erodes and will change a couple of thousandths

[@wilfdarr]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 Depends how hot your loads are, but ya, it can. If for example you decided that the rifle liked that first group best, you would then run the second procedure he showed where you confirm erosion. But you'll be doing that every couple hundred rounds anyways, so you decide when to do it, what's going to fit your shooting schedule best.

[@EagleEyeShooting]

Testing for yourself is key in success. I've learned things through Mr. Cortina as well as many others. Despite the many that will judge (even from one video done intentionally arrogant.) The best method is one you've tried and has met your shooting goals. Small discrepancies regardless of ones medals or wins means nothing as long as your happy with your results. Keep at it, keep and open mind and help others enjoy this sport👍. I'm struggling to see the results from not chasing the lands... however I'm trying the method he described, just not getting the same results with all my rifles. I would like to add though, the Jam point -20 thou has gotten me right at the node so far

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Eagle Eye Shooting thanks! I really enjoy your content as well, I’ve learned a lot from your channel.

[@peterandersson5662]

I will give you a tip, take off the bolt spring before you close the bolt when you do that manouver.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Peter Andersson interesting, what is the advantage of doing this?

[@ErikCortina]

Superior Noise Reduction 🤷‍♂️ I don’t take out the firing pin. That’s why I suggest that you use a dummy round. 😁

[@peterandersson5662]

Superior Noise Reduction If you do that, there are no tension when you repeat the dummy round The bullet is put on tension when you repeat, and the bullet leangth can be missread. It is easy to remove, i recommend you at least try it. 👍

[@ErikCortina]

Peter Andersson Peter Andersson I recommend jamming the bullet for that very reason. The plunger doesn’t Interfere with bullet length because the rifling itself is seating the bullet into the case.

[@peterandersson5662]

Erik Cortina Ok Eric, but when you repeat out the dummy, the spring force the bullet against the wall, and maybe the bullet will move from the position. I am sorry for bad english, i hope you understand whatt i mean. I am from Sweden, so,,,, Thank you for interesting chatts 🙏😃

[@evanhandelong7685]

Looks like you should focus on getting a better powder charge

[@codyway7424]

If you are going to test at 450, you should really only look at vertical dispersion. Horizontal dispersion may have wind influence. Is your spotter a world class long range competitor, or a manager at Walmart? Or, you could just test at 100.

[@donaldbougie694]

Check your headspace bump,it,s very important,the flash hole deburring the hole in the case ect,ect,ect and good luck.

[@chrisharris9710]

Yea, shoot at 100, and work backwards not forwards. The idea is to find a node, not just to find one off group. Working forward works you into jam, a measurement you don’t want to go past. Look for a group of nodes that are tight, not a single group. Then load .001 shorter than the longest measurement of that node.

[@wildcat_reloading]

1st, no one tests at 450 yards, we shoot 100 yards because you minimize external factors Secondly how do your ES and SD look because that might explain alot

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Varget seems to be the most consistent powder across the internet however I need to do my own testing with a chronograph. Just picked up a Caldwell today, I hope it is accurate. It might be a while before I can post my next video because it’s a barren wasteland right now for reloading supplies.

[@wildcat_reloading]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 chronographs are probably one of the most essential tools in your arsenal when it comes to load development, the gatherd velocity data is essential because the difference in velocity really shows at distance, a nother reason why testing at 100m is going to help you alot more

[@raythemanroe]

I'm not sure what Erik prescribes to as far as finding the "touch" for seating depth. I know if you KZbin wheeler accuracy and follow his stripped bolt method you will get more consistent results. you will be able to take more accurate notes that will be beneficial in the future. I don't understand the idea that chasing the lands is stupid yet running seating depth tuning to tune your rifle. It's one of the same and if it is beneficial now it's beneficial later as the barrel erodes.. Also, taking accurate notes by doing your setup correctly will allow you to know how much your cartridge/powder/bullet combination moves..

[@ryridesmotox]

Have you seen Erik's video on it? He is pretty specific on it and explains it pretty well.

[@raythemanroe]

@@ryridesmotox What bothered me with these videos is it assumed a lot. If you measure you blindly chase, WTH is that? Jam is bad, WTH is that? It just labels the Shooters that measure as stupid and thoughtless. I get he has a method he found to work easier but you can't just throw everyone else in a box.. It is actually offensive to listen to. If you don't measure and you start at jamming which isn't a number so seating your bullets .020 deeper than "jamming" could still be in the lands. You can easily do the stripped bolt method the first time to get a reference point. Taking good notes from an actual number isn't dumb or hard. I would start my test from a measured .015 in the lands and work my way out..

[@rekshort]

I bought an Atlas mono pod and it spent very little time on my rifle. Good for elevation but crap for windage stability. I use a bag made from the material of an old pair of pants filled with rice. If you are just worried about handload accuracy use a rest but if you want to challenge handload accuracy and your skill toss the rest use a bag. Also if there's no wind your groups look like you are pulling the trigger, try squeezing. Your gun should fire in its own time, you just keep slowly increasing pressure untill it does, don't pull!.

[@stephenthompson9722]

100 if you have a crono yes. I don't have a chronograph so I shoot at 200 and my ladder tests are always .1 gr increments so that if I pull one shot I still get good data

[@garywoeltjen2013]

You need to spend more time watching Erik!

[@aakoksal]

Finding your nodes require good reloading equipment (very precise scale, good seating dies), annealed cases, etc... That being said, glad you could find your sweet spot...! I think the ideal distance to shoot for load development is 200 yards...

[@PhalanxArms]

I think you missed the point of his video. Seating depth does play a big role in your load development. What he's saying is that as you shoot through the life of your barrel, your node does not have a 1 to 1 relationship with barrel erosion. So if your barrel erodes 35 thousands, you don't need to seat your bullet 35 thousandths longer to maintain the same accuracy.

[@BernieDiaz]

I'll keep watching Erik and your videos to see if I can get some worthwhile conclusions from them. You guys were arguing about neck sizing only versus full-length sizing. I give Erik that round about full-body sizing simply because he provided plenty of 3rd party opinions from very qualified long-range shooters. Up to now I only neck sized, but I am going to test full-sizing with bumping back the neck 2 thou and see how that goes. Now the discussion is about bullet seating versus hitting the lands. I like the testing method discussed. I had used the Hornady bullet seating method using the casing they provide, not my own shot piece of brass which makes a lot more sense. I'll replicate it on my rifles keeping in mind that changing bullets starts the game all over again.and with time may have to repeat this exercise since the chambers will change as you shoot more through them. In any case, regardless of the arguments, this is why I love reloading. It's a moving target that keeps me entertained and busy. Both of you keep at it, we'll keep watching.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Bernie Diaz Absolutely, as someone who just got into it a few months ago I’m beginning to realize that reloading information is CONSTANTLY changing. I greatly enjoy it nonetheless.

[@BernieDiaz]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 The next discussion please.... when to anneal brass. I have not shot any of my rounds more than 4 times and I think I'm getting there where I'll need to.

[@redraiderreloading7612]

Just watch erik..for a no nonsense approach to it all

[@orozcocris93]

looks like yours likes the 2 thousanths for now. Good video! really demonstrates the process

[@rgthomson100]

You dont really know what you are doing, no disrespect intended All you are doing here is changing the pressure created by moving the seating depth around You have to get your load sorted for ES before this, less than 15 if you can and your first port of call after this is to try 20 thou jump with a bullet with a secant ogive

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Rob Thomson you are correct, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I’m slowly learning.

[@pierrelebrasseur8493]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 You admitted that you don't know what your re doing but arguing with that I am wrong

[@rocknraptor3195]

Yes!! This dude 😄

[@rocknraptor3195]

Idk why no one has mentioned that the pressure is changing with every move of seating depth??

[@scottkoresky5879]

I have been adjusting factory ammo and 308 Remington 180 grain set to 2.236” and netted me same hole accuracy at 100 yards with a chamber measurement of 2.243” in a Franchi. I know pressure maybe high however no evidence within past 40 rounds. Do your own investigation and gather your own facts on your own rifle.

[@j.walker3498]

Johnnys reloading bench does the same thing. i dont cut the brass but use the same method.

[@bobbyfresher762]

WTH tests a load at 450 yards?

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I do.

[@bobbyfresher762]

Umm ok. WTH else does this and why would you? You are inputting unwanted and unknown variables that affect accuracy.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

@@bobbyfresher762 The group tightened up, that was the point of the video. The closest target is 450 yards at my range.

[@bobbyfresher762]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 I understand what you were trying to convey. My point is that your results could've easily been skewed by simply testing your loads at 450. I would be interested to see your results at 100 yards.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

@@bobbyfresher762 I’ll be doing all my testing at 100 yards in the next video because of the amount of feedback I’ve gotten, it’s just impossible to find supplies right now.

[@jaywright2276]

you might try this at 100 yds then verify it at 450 yrds . looks like you got more going on then seating depth problems

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I agree, finally found some reloading supplies, new video should be up soon.

[@jaywright2276]

Cool I'll watch we ll learn together

[@dennissnider5682]

I don't load or nothing but to me logically you'd definitely think that the least amount of distance or jump to the lands would be more accurate 🤔

[@russellmiller212]

Well, you have noticed an improvement after a few practice strings. Although, one can relate to a short bullet without sufficient surface area (ogive) to benefit from 'standard seating depth' with too much jump ('freebore'). All one must do is consider cartridges like the 22-250 and the short bullets it has historically been so impressive with at 600 - 800 yards, whether precision paper punching or coyote hunting. So, it is likely just you shooting better (,i.e. more consistent cheek position on the stock, perhaps you were slightly squeezing the grip surface of the stock or had your torso leaning into the gun. So many variables to consider. Changing the position of the shooting eye even slightly will cause a significant change in the strike of the bullets beyond 200 yards. If there were quality issues in the manufacture of the bullets, the first 3 or 4 strings would have all been the same Lot number and the final group a differant Lot. Otherwise, it's probably subtle improvements in your shooting from the first string to the last. If deviation in the consistency of one projectile to the another is unlikely due to slight variances in sectional density (ballistic coefficient is not essential for accuracy at that distance even with small diameter bullets)

[@dp4467]

Lol are you a pro shooter I would just keep 🤐 and ur new to reloading

[@robburton3255]

Geez guys. Give this guy a break. He was just trying out Erik's method. He admits he's new to reloading and an average shooter. Maybe you guys should watch Cortina's video about Eagle Eye's video. He shows you how to RESPECTFULLY disagree with someone. BTW, I've been reloading for 30 years and I'm still learning.

[@emoryzakin2576]

Good Lord so much criticism and hate in the comments I just wanna say i enjoyed your test and like all testing yes it’s imperfect but it gave you so much work off of making it valuable. Anyways thank you for effort and keep going man!

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Thank you so much! My testing process was definitely not perfect but I’m still getting great results using Eric Cortina’s method. I hope to have part two as soon as I can find some Varget!

[@emoryzakin2576]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 good to hear it man I’ll definitely watch the sequel. Although waiting for varget it may be awhile good luck though!

[@Sunviewer338]

There's actually a whole lot of excellent shooters that shoot with their bullet jammed. But you're correct. Probably not the best method for a beginner.

[@stefanschug5490]

First you need to get a Chronograph! Then find a good powder that burns 100% before the projectile leaves the barrel and which gives you the lowest SD with the bullet and barrel you are using. Disregard grouping, just find the lowest SD best under 10 ft/sec. After that is achieved you can start doing what you are doing but I would not go directly to 450 yards but rather 100 or a maximum of 200 yards with a good rest. You will eventually hit a node with this process even if you are further away from the lands. I tried with some 7 mm and 8 mm Mausers that have so much freebore, they should never group and it worked. Sub-1/2 MOA groups do not matter much for hunting but if you wish to increase accuracy for paper punching purposes with that excellent Ruger Precision Rifle of yours you will have to check concentricity, anneal necks, weigh and group bullets out of the same lot and use a mandrel for opening the neck to consistent dimentions (.002 under projectile dimentions worked best for me in most cases)!

[@galbow6770]

I really appreciate this. Being an experienced reloader, but new to long range. I get why you didn't load .018" from lands, and I totally get your predictions - just something to try the next time you're out on the range. It's a process, and I don't get why comments are hating on you for not calling Eric an expert - you didn't say anything like that. Maybe most of those comments are from people who have never experimented in the process of precision reloading.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Thanks so much! The video and testing process definitely wasn’t perfect but I feel like people didn’t even watch the video before they commented.

[@Madmartigan1]

aside from your initial range choice of 450 yards, I think you're on track, in your attempt to follow / duplicate what Eric laid out in his videos on the subject. You should shoot at 100 for sure and could probably even close in to 50 in the attempt to find the "best node".... all you're doing is looking for that best consecutive two groups... This assumes that the load you're shooting is a good performing load that your gun likes. Additionally - maybe move the "other way" with your seating depth - less adjustment each time...start at 15 - 20 off jam, then go 23, 26, 29 etc....that way it's faster / easier to adjust your seating depth...no backtracking. Just my thoughts . Good initial work though.

[@ddreuss]

My attention span as a marine relies on crayons. But when your first sentence was “I recently got into reloading,“ and then continued on to a dummy Cartridge I knew I jumped on the wrong KZbin page. My self just got into reloading. And I realized who to listen to and who not to. This is like a terrible TickTock video from a lance corporal or PFC underground.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

The same dummy cartridge that Eric Cortina makes when he’s testing this method? Thank you for letting me know I wasted your time, you’ll never get those seconds back.

[@paulmartin6895]

You did not talk about load development. That is part of your group issues. Everything gose hand and hand for loading your own ammo. Also it is not worth to chase the lands . I found that out also . I mine loading. I get good groups up to 3/4" at 100 yards . You do not want to put all you need into it then you waste your time and money. And better off buy factory ammo.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

I did do load development just didn’t talk about it in this video.

[@Deuceblank]

Well that was a waste of time, specifically says shoot to develope at 100yds

[@TheJgriff50]

So you’re trying to prove EC wrong by not doing it correctly, with no velocity and SD/ES numbers? Using a monopod. I’ll stick to taking advice from a world class shooter that’s been winning big match’s and placing in the top for years

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jordan Griffith watch the video idiot.

[@TheJgriff50]

Superior Noise Reduction lol I did. And you proved exactly why you have 68 subrscribers. Calling the few people idiots that actually watched your video sure should help keep us coming back 😆

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jordan Griffith so if you watched the video, do you understand what it means to prove someone wrong? Because I did the exact opposite. This channel is a hobby, not to fish for subscribers.

[@P.E.J.]

you do ofcourse understand that different rifles like different things like different bullets?? and so even different seatingdepths??

[@kcstott]

Some suggestions. 1. shooting at distance don't concern your self with horizontal spread. only worry about vertical. Wind does a lot. and even a 2 mph change in wind is enough to blow around a 308 vld bullet 1/2 to 1 moa depending on the distance. Play with the number on a ballistic solver and see for your self. also keep in mind bullet precession. The up left, down right bullet movement as the wind acts upon your bullet. 2. Hornady bullets while good are not consistent enough for F class Open shooters. no one uses them. or at least no one scoring high uses them. 3. Your made up group at the end. WTF really?? there is no way on gods green earth you have a clue what the next group is going to be unless you test. 1 test is worth 1000 opinions. So while you are on the right track I think you are over thinking things and paying to much attention to stuff that don't matter. like wind deflection of your group. only worry about vertical.

[@CryptidCajun]

With the title of your video People are thinking it’s going to be a rebuttal so they are either not watching it till the end or not paying attention just an opinion.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Philip Hebert thank you! Just showing my results, which were inconclusive...

[@Geekygordon]

Glad you had fun

[@readyalready4697]

Is that a Seekins? Good God. Get that rail off the top. Had to have a neighbor shave them off. Ruger learned that in GEN 1.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

It's a factory Samson rail, I did have to shave the recoil lugs down but the scope was not actually touching. This rifle is long gone because of that reason.

[@pstewart5443]

RPRs are really a better shooting rifle the closer I get to the lands. I have a 6.5CM & a 308. Both react the same as I get closer to the lands. Groups tighten up. Same with my Remmy 700. David Tubb will absolutely contradict Cortina. I often wonder if Cortina tells ppl this stuff to lower his competition by misleading ppl.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

P Stewart I don’t know man, he seems to know what he’s doing, I’ll have a new video soon testing his method.

[@chrisbewley5615]

'did you really listen to tubbs he said he shoots with the bullets touching or in the lands

[@ajgraf122]

Love the video except you really need to do this at 100 yards to take wind out of it.

[@nightwaves3203]

You know you are saying what Cortina says of don't care where the lands are, work with what works best from originally finding the sweet spot then work from there not a set jump to lands distance.

[@brunomorin9142]

you make very big groupings and you contradict a top f class shooter?

[@rustynut1967]

He agreed with him basically

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Bruno Morin did you watch the video?

[@montanamarksman9302]

Bruno Morin, I feel like you didn’t even watch it. He did the complete opposite. I kinda thought he was going to contradict him when I first started watching but he basically put Erik’s method to work and did a great job logging and sharing the results.

[@duanehunter5233]

You are not understanding what he is saying. There are a lot of shooters that base their OAL off of distance from the lands. As the the throat of the barrel erodes they will try to maintain the same distance from the lands. All Eric is trying to say is do not mess with what works. If your groups are not opening up with throat erosion do not change your OAL. Eric is a well respected shooter and knows what he is talking about. Listen and learn.

[@tasunko7672]

You're not shooting the same quality of rifle that Eric is. Nothing wrong with the Ruger for what it was designed to do, but it's not a custom built rifle with a hand lapped barrel.

[@harbselectronicslab3551]

chasing lands is stupid.......I have been shooting for 35 years, the last 10 as a precision long range shooter........ it was stupid then, and is stupid now, its just gone up a couple of levels over the years.

[@justinnav]

Dude I have to cringe every time you decide to lean directly on the scope of your rifle...

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Justin N just wait until I pick it up by the scope.

[@DRHODES1979]

Lol! Exactly. My scope doubles as a carry handle!

[@matthemberry]

I didn’t even get past that part. I stopped the video and looked in the comments to see if I was the only one.

[@jasonmako343]

If you like wasting time watching videos without any useful content, then at least watch this at 1.5x speed like I did. @Superior Noise Reduction - I'm glad you like making KZbin video diaries but unfortunately you don't have anything worthwhile to offer. Good luck!

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jason Mako cool, don’t watch my videos of you don’t like them.

[@gonzowtg]

I just went though all of Cortina's stuff and your practical demonstration fits with his technique. Thanks for the real world efforts! Good luck with your work and I hope to shoot as well at 450 yards as you!

[@ernestdokajr.3757]

That is not what he said

[@waynebooze5632]

Keep doing push-ups and pounding on your scope. I'm sure that's healthy for it.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

That’s my carry handle.

[@josecanisales3491]

I'm no expert!!! But I also thought 20 thousand of the land was a bit too far away to start. Some pros shoot at 10 thousands of the land or there abouts.

[@superiornoisereduction1211]

Jose Canisales if you watch his second video he covers this, some rifles can’t do that because you’ll exceed mag length, the whole point is to chase an accuracy node while having no care about where your lands are as long as you are within a safe distance. With that being said, I’ve heard many people say their rifle shoots best when it’s .010” off the lands. This whole experiment is a great learning experience for me.

[@josecanisales3491]

@@superiornoisereduction1211 Thanks partner, I'm learning also.

[@frenchaccent540]

Very good video and simply explained! Thank you

[@The4GunGuy]

Nice video! I'm going to change my barrel out on my custom 6.5 Creedmoor build here in a couple weeks and will post that. Also going to go through a new load workup for the new barrel and plan on using Erik's basic steps regarding NOT chasing the lands. I agree with some comments here around, finding the right nodes first...notice I said nodes...plural because you WILL have multiple "good" nodes along your load development. You may find a good node at 41.1 grains and one at 42.2 grains for example (just dummy numbers here as examples) which will give you good SD and ES and decent groups. THEN you can adjust seating depth (yes, i know it might adjust your SD/ES numbers, but probably not enough to eliminate that load and send you back to another load) in .005 increments and find your "sweet spot". I'm then planning on using Eriks' plan of every 500 rounds through the barrel, pushing the seating depth back another .01, .03, .04 (since lands on 6.5 Creedmoor generally erode on average at .002" - .003" per 100 rounds and seeing if I get better groups. If I do get better groups and my SD/ES is still good, I'll go with the new seating depth...If not, I stick with what I have. As a side note here, I have shot 3,000 rounds through my Bartlein barrel and NEVER adjusted my seating depth...Started with .04 off the lands (Hornady ELD-M 147gr) and it still shoots great groups. If you look at what I said about erosion, that bullet should be ~.1000 off the lands now, but it still shoots great! So I'm not going to chase the lands by trying to "find them" after x number of rounds, I'm going to let the numbers and groupings guide me.

[@Serenityindailylife]

Just don't count on that erosion, I have a barrel that didn't change for the first 500 then fell off sharply, the metallurgy determines the erosion almost as much as caliber and load.

[@josephpepicelli4859]

You should of listened to what Erik Cortina had to say.... You didn’t hear him. His name is Cortina not Cortana....