my response to shadivercity and AI "art" or Rablelog episode 7

In this video we discuss the Hullabaloo Arround artificial generated images and youtubes own @shadiversity. my response and perspective on this controversial topic.
#AI #aiart #artficialintelligence #shadiversity #podcast #art #artist
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[@kaylaa2204]

I disagree with Shad on a great many things, to the extent I stopped being a fan of his work, as I lost what respect I had for him, unfortunately. This is the video that I discovered you with just today. You have a very clean skill with rhetoric. You don't talk down to your viewers, you remain intellectually honest, fairly addressing opposing points, which is something even I struggle with in day to day conversation with those I disagree with. I hope to develop the kind of skill you exhibit with your words here. And you're making content about the kind of things I originally followed Shad for, I have an interest in these things. Needless to say, I have gotten halfway through your video now and you have earned my subscription. Keep being this cool, and I hope your channel grows.

[@jaspermay5813]

About what do you disagree with Shad?

[@RodrigoTheHappyDog]

@@jaspermay5813 great way to start a political argument on the internet right there

[@josiegreene6140]

@@jaspermay5813 probably all the racism and misogyny

[@MaddMango]

This debate I consider as a "swing of the pendulum" in that AI will gain the upper hand, but it will not have staying power. Humans endeavor to seek out that direct connection with other human's endeavors. It will make true art and craftsmanship more rare and special.

[@thebordoshow]

I agree but don't want human craftsmanship to become rare. Modern world gives us all the opportunities to learn, become more skilled and improve ourselves, that's why I'm doing anything with my art, but I'm loosing work and can't gain money due to this new tech which is designed to replace me, rather than help me.

[@MaddMango]

I am a painter, bone and wood carver (Polynesian style), leather worker... all skills I learned through watching KZbin, but only to enhance my natural abilities. I have stepped away from them all at some point due to not being able to compete with technology. A mallet and chisel set can't match the speed of rotary power tools and a chainsaw, but I still retain the skills.

[@vylbird8014]

Art isn't just art, it's also business. People might want 'real' art to hang in galleries, but most professional artists don't make that sort of art. They draw for brochures, signage, advertising, corporate theming, posters - that side of work is purely commercial, and entirely subject to commercial pressures. AI might not entirely replace artists, but it'll boost the effective skill and productivity of a low-skilled artist and greatly diminish the demand for professional artists. Why hire someone with a decade of experience and a ton of natural talent when you can get someone fresh out of school and give them an AI tool?

[@cyborgchicken3502]

​​@@vylbird8014 I disagree with this view simply because of one fact.... Why would anyone hire an AI artist if they can just use the exact same AI image generation tools to create the art themselves... And you see this actually happening in real time, every single "AI artist" that had attempted to sell their work, get jobs in the industry or promote themselves to gain commissioned work have failed.... I've yet to come across an actual AI artist that got a job as a concept artist at a game development studio or as a graphic designer or even hired as a comic book artist.... The only place I've seen AI art actually generate some form of profit is in the Crypto and NFT world... Now it has caused some freelance artists to lose jobs and opportunities especially within the Social Media world, youtubers for example now instead create their own AI thumbnails and promotional images rather than hiring artists.... But again.... They're not hiring the so called AI artists either, they're just doing it themselves because simply put... Why on Earth would you pay hard cash for someone to do something you can now just do yourself

[@josiegreene6140]

As a computer science student, scifi writer and programmer I am very sad that AI is being utilized this way in 2024- its so weird that some of these AI bros have a sense of GLEE when you tell them that AI is hurting artists, writers, programmers, etc. As for your channel, you speak well, you research well and you draw attention to under appreciated communities in the world. You also dont post ragebait on your channel or have a second channel that does so. You already have my subscription and continued interest.

[@cyborgchicken3502]

AI bros are also very delusional in thinking it's going to "democratize art" and allow anyone to be an artist and make a living off art.... Because why would anyone commission or pay an AI artist to generate an image if they can simply do it themselves... I've yet to see a an AI artist actually become successful and make money off their AI art... So far every attempt I've seen online has failed with people in the comments saying "this looks cool but it's not real art" to expressing the same rhetoric I've just expressed of "why would I pay for this if I can just do it myself and even get the exact se result if I just steal your image"

[@nemoignorat2443]

I am a craftsperson myself (spinning, weaving, dyeing etc.) and I very much agree with your point of view. Very well said.

[@GooseTime-cz3mw]

I know that you said that you were not much of a reader but I find it deeply interesting how you have a similar talking point to Frank Herbert author of Dune "once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." As in do you have guaranteed access to and control over your tools? If not, then becoming reliant on those tools places you in a position of helpless dependency. The next step of thinking is summarized as can AI more efficiently and productively distribute capital to promising enterprises than human beings can? Because if so then the utility of the masses becomes null in the eyes of the few. And on a more philosophical level The taking away of human agency/destiny is unacceptable in the eyes of humanists. In the game of evolution you ether use it or lose it like the atrophy of the muscle.

[@thebordoshow]

I hate reading but I still read Dune! How could I not, they had Kinjals in it. I agree with the sentiment, we don't need to go to high sci-fi to see dangers of over relying on technology to think for you is a danger we face right now. We might not even realise but so much of the Internet is already artificial and full of fake people

[@GooseTime-cz3mw]

​@@thebordoshow Well I'm glad you are reading it. Maybe it's just me but I am always flattered when people of other cultures from far away appreciate some of the rare positive cultural we export. I imagine the same for you.

[@heracles5971]

Please consider the types of medieval Georgian swords, it will be very interesting.

[@thebordoshow]

I did make some videos about it, check my channel for more

[@ChildofFatherAdonai]

You have been such a huge inspiration for me, and I’ve only known your channel a year. I’m planning to forge myself a Seax to cut my bread, to follow into my Nordic culture our family left behind.

[@thebordoshow]

I'm very happy to hear that, inspiring others is why I struggled on my channel so much and am happy to be of any positive influence

[@viveillyvi]

Extremely well said, really Thank you for making this video, I will try to share it, people need to hear what you say

[@thebordoshow]

Thanks for appreciating! Makes the work worth it

[@jextra1313]

If you read into the AI bro comments, it's clear they're fueled by jealousy. Artists enjoy their jobs and that's not fair to them, because they don't. This is why I have no respect for them, it's a destructive mindset.

[@FinalJesse_]

Best argument/point i have heard yet

[@Valdyr_Hrafn]

Very well said, incredibly happy with this opinion of yours against AI

[@lordneador3724]

very well presented, thank you so much for being genuine and nice about this discussion. I'd really be interested in your take on sustainability and the ecological desasters of the present and the future.

[@KakhaPrime]

great video man! couldn't agree more with you, mad respect!

[@thebordoshow]

thanks!

[@JCOwens-zq6fd]

It is a tool, though unlike a hammer or other tools this one can advance to the point where it no longer needs a human being. Or more importantly the worlds elite wont need as many of us anymore. I like Shad but he like many will have to learn the hard way unfortunately.

[@thebordoshow]

exactly my point. this tool isn't here to make life easier for us, but to one day fully replace us

[@borjoizi13]

Just like guns replaced swords would be interesting comparison too, Horse got replaced by car and so on... i think this AI tool is just tool and hope we won't abuse it, we should use it smartly... and not depend on it... anyway, great vid. 👍

[@justarandomaspie4132]

I really think ai art is comparable to photography, everyone could take a super realistic photo of something, but it would be less of an artwork than a painting of it. BUT photography can still be on its own an artwork, in the ways it can be elevated from one-click cool scene too carefully set up work. So ai art is just a tool. (Putting aside the ethics wich of course need to be ve adressed) It can be used to make art. But just gecause it looks good, like a photo looks realistic, it isnt On its own Art. (Im mainly worried by it will hurt others with scams or low quality garbage. It really degrades what should be an awesome new tool into a money horse too be beat dead)(oh yeah and the art theft also fucking sucks) Love your channel by the way.

[@thebordoshow]

I agree, but it saddens me whenever AI art takes over handcrafted works, like recently AI slop won over hand made animated music video for Pink Floyd's contest. That broke my heart

[@thearmoredgoat2469]

I very much agree with this argument. And you presented it in one of the most respectful ways possible. Shad is a very reasonable human being, and I’m sure if he were to see this, he would understand fully.

[@thebordoshow]

Hope so

[@tobiasboh3370]

>Shad is a very reasonable human being Having seen his media takes, I very much doubt that lol

[@paulsheldon8838]

Not when it comes to AI Shad isn't. He's straight up obsessed.

[@lordneador3724]

shad is nothing close to reasonable, besides being a mysognistic, sexist, conservative homophobe^^ (just take a look at his second channel content, its no secret.)

[@defaultytuser]

Shad is very appreciative of emergent channels that are well researched and intellectually honest, so I'm sure he will eventually pick you up on his radar dear Bordo!

[@thebordoshow]

I just want him to stop promoting AI, thats it.

[@kaylaa2204]

13:15 I will never understand this phenomenon that to my experience only exists in any meaningful way on the internet. This thing where people revel in making others upset and angry at them. That's where you get trolls that do it as a fun quirky pastime. It's a weird and sad way to act.

[@OriginalSabZero]

You are a reasonable person, judging from this video. I appreciate your opinion on the issue and agree. You don't have to take my advice, but I would advice to find other creators making content about your interests, because Shad is a person with questionable viewpoints. He is a Mormon and hangs out with white supremacists like vox day (a very bad person).

[@thebordoshow]

Yea, I don't mind Mormons (I'm orthodox christian, even catholics are a weird sect to us) but he is keeping some unsavoury company. Worst for me is Sargon of Akkad who completely turned pro Russian fascist and is quoting Russian nazie ideologs.

[@GammaAKF]

AI can never replace the top 10% of any art form, but the 90% will suffer greatly. Do you still do commissioned art?

[@thebordoshow]

I should get back into it but don't seem to manage it

[@GammaAKF]

@@thebordoshow do you have a website? I follow you on Facebook but haven't seen you post art. I'd like to commission some Shadowrun charavter art if you ever do get back into it

[@reroman1892]

ai art is beneath the stainless steel knife. The knife designed and manufactured by humans, with a clear purpose and vision, it is, in some sense of the word, still art. No human input takes place in Ai art, the is no purpose, no vision, it is simply vision slop, already existing visual material vomited and stitched together. One is art-adjacent, the other is an affront to art and human creativity.

[@mists_of_time]

I'm really sorry to hear about your income. I would like to add another point: current what we call AI today are not "AGI" but relativly simple algorithms, they are not superintelligent tech-Gods. Much of those generated stuff really lacks some kind of message or meaning. I don't want to make an argument about some kind of magical "soul". But they are pixels generated based on probabilities. An illustrator will always be able to create some kind of worldbuilding with some details, there are a ton of choices to tell a story of some kind. I use AI generated stuff aswell, sometimes they make my job easier and I can easily see a future where content will be automatically generated. I just don't see a lot of value in blindly using generated content without a creative human in the loop.

[@thebordoshow]

Exactly. Even the greatest machine can't replace human "soul". But if we rely on it more and more we will loose skills to compete with it

[@jonathanperreault4503]

@@thebordoshow alright , i would like you to consider this , i use chat gpt to write stories , ive perfected the ways of making suggestions that will make chat gpt create the largest amount of the most diverse elements to the story , for example , after already having many pages of story , i will give proposition with implications and on tops of that will specifically tell it to add it own conclusiton/ events to the story and it does this very VERY welll , ut really understands what is happening in the story and the different ellements making up a characters or a scene and what a character should think , its really amazing so my point is if you take images as an example dont forget that images are static , dont include elements of the previous images , and are really limited as to what the a.i can understand about the elements inside a single prompt , (even images will be 1000x bettes tough) my point is take into account what part of the technology you are talking about and how it works , text is more fluid and given that the way we use text is not that different the results are so much more fluid and versatile and the result close to human made text and for the argument about it being made or other peoples words well when it comes to text the source is all texte ever writen so larger then the knowledge of any person and the argument breaks down

[@Davids_Stalidzans]

AI is doing the same thing Industrial Revolution already did once to our productive efforts. Makes things cheaper, faster, lower quality, runs genuine creators out of business but for the average schmuck its a good thing because cheap fast product yay. It's gonna suck and it's inevitable. Best we can do is recognize the issues and put in effort to choose individual creators and artists instead of mass produced AI art. There are good videos of the harms and struggles of the Industrial Revolution to the average artisan. AI is gonna do the same thing, but now we have history to learn from and prepare for the future.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

It's the deliberate dumbing/democratization of art just like it happened to education and academia. I think the reaction will be people beginning to appreciate human cræfting, longing for it. The woke "artists" will be left to die of starvation out in the cold as they deserve, but real artists will be sought for, I even think the real AIs as our friendly neighbour SKYNET will be the more invested on getting the real stuff. I hope that's the will of Eru-Ilúvatar.

[@thebordoshow]

I also hope so, but knowing the art world and especially buyers, I doubt this will happen any time soon. Great art existed because rich patrons payed for it, "woke artists" are just shills who pander to the art dealer who then sells art for rich people to use it as stock investment. starving artist keeps on starving and now thanks to AI, even the small buyers won't come to them. I hope we get more community supported artists rather than Rich donors or big media owners, where artists make art for their communities and they in turn support them with small investments. this is the good that internet has brought to us, but AI threatens small creators like me from growing. hope it gets better.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@thebordoshow I have to lay my hopes on community driven patronage, for the rich of old were people invested on surrounded themselves with the beauty of the Classics, delving themselves in Latin, but the riches of today are just hoarders, trying to capture everything so nobody will delight themselves with our cultural inheritance. Dark days lie ahead for all of us, my friend, but I know together we will prevail.

[@wynngwynn]

weird art gatekeeping. People have different tastes. Whenever someone uses the 'woke' argument on people I just kind of laugh. Do you even know what 'wokeness' is?

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@wynngwynn Yes, it's the narcissistic and arrogant idea they know better so much they can dictate our past and present, even demanding total control of our language and thoughts... all of them a mob of people lacking self control thus control freaks. SO I laugh at you, commie. Remember child abusers have a different taste

[@kaylaa2204]

​@@wynngwynn I feel the same. I've oft tried to have it explained to me, only to get stuff that sounds like its just a generic word used to vaguely describe that something is progressive and you don't like it without explaining why you don't like it. It's not an intellectually efficient way to speak, it feels like there's an assumption that I should know whats being talked about or I'm playing dumb or something. In this instance in particular, I'm especially confused because it's even less clear than usual what exactly is meant by "woke artist" in this context. What has been explained doesn't sound like other things I've heard called woke, not even vaguely.