My thoughts About Notation and Tablature.

[@Chris_Lohmann]

Hi Andy, I just found your channel. I’m 43 and started learning to play guitar in 1996 when I was 15. I went on to formally study music in college and even taught private guitar lessons for a short time but the 2008 recession forced me to find other ways of earning a living. I played guitar for about 9 1/2 years before I had my first formal lesson. While I can read music and I do think it’s something that is important for a musician to be able to do, I still try to learn songs by ear as much as possible and memorize as I go. When I had students, I tried to teach them not to become dependent on sheet music and to think of sheet music kind of like training wheels on a bicycle. It can be useful when your first learning, but if you want to progress, eventually the training wheels have to come off. My mom was a classically trained pianist and was used to playing Beethoven and Chopin and when I was a teenager I wanted to play Black Sabbath and AC/DC and The Ramones and the Sex Pistols and Iron Maiden and Judas Priest and old Metallica. I had very little if any sheet music for that material and would try to learn the songs just by listening to the albums and my mom and I would have just vicious, vitriolic arguments because, as far as she was concerned, I was doing it all wrong. While I started on electric guitar and electric guitar is still very much my bread and butter, in recent years I’ve begun branching out into other genres that I never really paid any attention to before. In particular, fingerstyle acoustic. Have you ever explored New Age acoustic fingerstyle instrumentals such as the works of Will Ackerman, Michael Hedges, Andy McKee, Mike Dawes or Calum Graham? If not, I have a playlist of Instrumental Guitar on my channel and I made it public for anyone to enjoy so feel free to check it out. By the way, I got a good laugh out of “tadpoles & telephone lines”. That would be a good song title. Cheers! 🍻

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, I expected to get some feedback about this video from readers, and tab users. Thanks for your comments.

[@joelgevirtz6181]

One of the things I do is to develop guitar reductions of piano pieces, mostly ragtime. For most of these, reading the original sheet music and transposition and reduction of the original so that it can be played on guitar is required. When I began this (many, many years ago), I couldn't read music. However, I really wanted to do these things so I bit the bullet and taught myself to read piano scores (both clefs) so that I could obtain a result that was true to the original music. Admittedly, reading music is a pain, but for me it became a necessary skill. It didn't limit my improv skills and allowed me to learn stuff faster. I still play mostly by ear and improvise on tunes that way. I always will, but reading is a worthwhile skill to obtain IMHO.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Joel, it's always a treat to read your comments. I hope you are both well. Of course there are times and circumstances when notation is necessary, and probably many times when it can prove helpful, but for my style, not really mandatory, and can, I feel, be restricting. I knew tat this video might prove provocative, and it has, but my aim isto get people to talk, and think about how they play. Thanks, as always.

[@1965zimmy]

I've been learning classical guitar for the last couple of years and your story about the woman with the piano really hit home. I also find it hard to play my guitar without pages of sheet music or tablature in front of me (the latter of which I use for non-classical music). Reading skills have been very helpful to me in overcoming my limitations, which prevent me from learning by ear. I don't think learning music by reading just means you're an "operator," or at least it doesn't have to mean that. Once you've worked on a piece for some time and get over the technical challenges, you have to make it your own, just like you would if you learned it by ear. I wish I could learn by ear, but I wouldn't get very far if that's all I had to rely on. I do think memorizing (which is something I'm currently working on) is a very important skill to develop regardless of how you first learn a piece. I really enjoyed your story about how you developed as a musician.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, possibly because when i stared learning sometime in the '60s i had no advice, training or assistance so really made it up. I learned how to tune the thing and some basic chords, but it wasn't until i joined a bluegrass band in '75 that I started to, as it were, connect the dots. It was sometime later when I encountered tablature but it didn't look anything like music : rhythm , notes scales and chords did in the images I had in my head. I'd already seen and dismissed notation as something more akin to some obscure ancient language than anything familiar to me. We just came to playing from totally different directions. If your more formal way gives you what you need and feel comfortable with, then that's fine, it probably took me far longer to learn than you did, but now my hands know more than I do. Thanks for your observations, appreciated.

[@nickworley1000]

I agree Andy I've been playing myself over half a century every day is a school day as they say great channel

[@SillyMoustache]

Thanks for watching.

[@patricklundquist9869]

I feel your pain. With 60 years of guitar playing under my belt, I have no knowledge of music theory, have developed absolutely no ability to read tabs, notation, do not understand the Nashville System. I could possibly name maybe 12 chords. I never play the same song, the same way, twice. Just a few years ago I learned the EADGBE were the standard string tunings. Before that I only knew EA and E). Learning this was very helpful clear up until I decided to tune down to D#... Long story, short, I play by ear. This may be a reaction as a child to my classically trained mother's piano playing at night as we fell asleep. For years I thought that classical music was supposed to have pauses in certain places (where she reached up and turned the page). Once I discovered the real reason, it became a pet peeve. Years later I dated a woman who did the same thing. I asked how long she had been playing. 27 years was her response. I told her that after that long, she should be able to close her eyes and imagine the music on the page. The next day she called all excited because she tried it and it worked. She had played an entire piece with no page turning pauses. And thus, I had taught her the bad habit of how to play by ear. Then I told her, if you hit a wrong note or chord and it sounds good, keep doing it and you are improvising. Do enough of that and you will be writing your own music. And that is how you gain the ability to release the beauty that resides inside your heart and soul. It is the sound of freedom.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Patrick, thank you for making contact, and for sharing your experiences, particularly how you helped you lady friend to play from memory rater that notation and page turning pauses. I wouldn't say that I know nothing about music theory, in fact as and when necessary I teach what is necessary, for singer guitarists, - I certainly share understanding with chord construction, scales, harmonising the scales, CAGED, and the so called "Nashville" numbering system, all of which I'd be happy to share with you in a one-to-one Zoom meeting if interested, but I admit that I have no relationship with notation, and little fondness with tablature. Best regards, Ol'Andy

[@alanhoward9910]

Wow, at last somebody has explained why I have been struggling for so long, I am now in my seventies, but this short chat shone such a brilliant light on why I do what I do. And possibly why it does not seem to work. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for shining a light.

[@SillyMoustache]

Glad it was helpful! I wonder if you would like to meet via zoom -perhaps I could help? Let me know if interested.

[@sbolfing]

This was an interesting video! We must be close to the same age, I started on guitar around 1965 (Stella parlor guitar) learning chords and rhythm (Mel Bay's book was a big influence). A few years later, I started violin - which enabled me to sight read notation. I have the James Taylor book, and got several others (late 60s/early 70s) that were all in notation. It seemed normal to me. Then I got a book that was all tabs (around 74) - it was actually hard for me, to begin with; but, I liked how much easier it was to learn the best shapes on the fretboard. My preferred sheet music has both. I think learning from sheet music made it a little harder to play be ear, but I got a little better at it over the years. Thoroughly enjoy every video you've put out!

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, I'm 76 and I don't remember when I bought my first guitar - probably the late '60s. I just pootled around with it at first, and picked up the notion of chord progressions, right hand technique some time in the mid '70s in bluegrass bands, by which time I'd developed my own way of "seeing" music in my head, and neither notation nor tab looked like what I saw. So I guess I "saw" by "ear" !! Thanks for making contact and for your kind comments.

[@daves-music]

Hi Andrew. You may know that are various ways in which folk learn anything and these include audio, visual, reading, writing and simply getting involved and just doing it. The teacher has to adapt to best help the individual learner depending on their learning style . Often there is a mix of learning styles in an individual depending on what is being learnt. This is one of the key pieces of leaning that prospective teachers who want qualifications, have to learn about. Notation was and is used for all the reasons you say and is a vehicle by which accomplished 'readers' can quickly embrace the simple music before bringing their own 'feel' to it or the 'feel' of the person that requires it e.g. the conductor. or the person being musically supported in say, a recording studio. Some musicians have a reputaion for a particular style of music and that's what is sought out and utilised. They may not be fluent readers but they have long experience that they can bring to the party. As far as the person who couldn't play the piano without music, my opinion is that they have all the theoretical and mechanical skills to play music 'by numbers' but any 'feel' they bring to it will be prompted by the notation itself rather than an inner emotion. That's why some players are very wooden and others really bring genuine, rather than manufactured emotion, to what they're playing.. In my opinion, the most entertaining musicians are those that have enough confidence, knowledge and experience to be able to adapt their style across a wide range of genres. Some people can do this via notation, others, simply by 'ear' Some people, however, are only comfortable within a more limited range of style. But music is simply that - a vehicle in which the individual can grow and enjoy what they do within whatever barriers they put up (whether permanent or moveable) There's no right or wrong!

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Dave, as a one-to-one mentor for a few years now, it most certainly has shown me that individuals differ in the way they process information, and singing / playing skills. Many who come to me are already frustrated by notation and/or tab, so I teach them without the need for them. It seems to work. Thanks for your observations.

[@robertnewell5057]

Regret that there is abundant evidence in the psychology literature that matching teaching style to student preferred learning style makes no difference to their learning achievement. See for example this NIH review: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5366351/ This is not to say a teacher should not be sympathetic to the needs of a student or attempt to engage with them, obviously; just that the 'learning style matching' concept doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

[@alisonk3148]

When I took piano lessons as a child, I was very much taught to be an operator, as you said. My teacher taught some music theory but never connected it to what I was playing on a very deep level. Years later when my son first started learning piano, he was taught and encouraged to improvise, which was eye opening to me. I felt that was at least part of what I had been missing.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Alison, most interesting! Thanks for this, I hope that you are now able to improvise, or develop you own style ?

[@alisonk3148]

@@SillyMoustache Sort of. I took a long hiatus from music and just started learning guitar earlier this year, so I’m still in the beginner stage, filling my toolbox with the skills that I need. The most improvisation that I can do at this point is to play with chord progressions and strumming patterns. I’m just starting to learn finger picking, which is the main direction I want to follow, and I can see that becoming a good way to “make it my own.”

[@stephensparks3621]

Notation, tabs are important but interpretation and rhythm are key to great playing. This is what gives the song its soul by each person who plays it.

[@SillyMoustache]

Absolutely Stephen ! Thanks for watching.

[@stevefranklin6041]

Thanks for addressing this issue, Andy. Tab has helped me to some degree, but it has also become a crutch because I've become dependent on it for a lot of songs. I guess it really does stifle one's creativity. The songs that are the easiest to learn are the ones you compose yourself.

[@SillyMoustache]

Well said Steve! but as I do mostly covers now that I er-arrange into my style. Maybe we need to talk? (zoom meeting?)

[@stevefranklin6041]

@SillyMoustache Thanks. I'm considering it, but your clocks are eight hours ahead of mine.

[@yak9147]

I like that, " They can't remember when they didn't know it. "

[@SillyMoustache]

Yeah, I think it is true, and when I teach , I have to remember that there was a time when I didn't know what I've learnt over the years in order to see through my client's eyes.

[@grantbaker371]

Thats a very nicely put observation about how people approach their learning. My guess is Robert johnson never went to Juliard or Berklee

[@SillyMoustache]

I think that you may be correct!

[@robertnewell5057]

How odd that we have shared so many experiences. Your NLSR book reminded me of the Joan Baez Songbook. A nightmare. I got the JT book, too, and found it really helpful. The tabs were done by the late Happy Traum. The rest was a waste of time. Now I do read music and tab, and I would advise anyone wanting to progress on guitar to use them, BUT you need to get away from that stuff ASAP if you want to arrange music for yourself. I went to that summer school as well for a good few years - didn't see you there, I regret! I have to say that a lot of the teachers I worked with there didn't leave us alone, but guided us every step of the way (Lynn Morris, Tony Trishka, Sally van Meter, Rob Ickes, the late Stacey Phillips - I never did guitar there as I'm not a flatpicker), while others (who I won't name) were as you describe. I also found management to be snotty. The scratch bands and jams were the best part.

[@SillyMoustache]

Agreed Robert, I met both Lyn Morris but not as her student, and worked with Sally, but two or three students effectively crowded out the rest of the class. I wanted to study with Stacey as I was told he didn't use tab. Sorry to hear that he has passed.

[@texhaines9957]

4 cont I learned guitar watching and listening. It was the Olde Tyme Fiddlers' association that showed me how I could do single note licks on paper (string, position) and I do that for guitar ( string-fret) about 3/4" (2 cm) high. Again, if I play it a few times, memory kicks in. This is valuable for songs I write.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Tex, thank you for all this information but your detailed series of posts complicates my ability to communicate with other comments and queries so now, having read them I intend to delete them soon. No offence intended, and hope that you understand, Best regards, Ol'Andy.

[@texhaines9957]

@SillyMoustache no worries. I just had more to say than the space allowed. No technical editor to shorten them

[@vte4chg]

Hello Andry. Very interesting… I don’t have an answer to your question! I think you should write a book. Your stories are all amazing. Be well. Bob from Chicago.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi again Bob, funny you should mention that, I find that people seem to like my ramblings - but what to call it ?

[@josephwalus5389]

Another great video. Everyone learns at a different speed and not everyone is a teacher. Great ending question. I think after you have been playing for a while you develop a style, and your fills become 2nd nature. But playing guitar is an ongoing education.

[@SillyMoustache]

What you say is all true, at least for me. Thanks for watching.

[@traceystern6592]

😢I quit using tab this year as my #1 New Years resolution. I am still tab sober, not even a peek at any. Tab made me a very lazy player. 🎉

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Tracey, congratulations! I suspect that your guitar playing will improve greatly now! Let me know If I can help you via one-to-one mentoring using Zoom.

[@jakeet999]

There are musicians who can only sight read, and some who can do both. When l played with a friend who played mandolin, we auditioned a guy as a 2nd guitarist who sounded great on his recording doing a cover version yet was lost when he had to improvise with us, mainly because he'd never jammed could play by tabs, that didn't work out unfortunately

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Jake, yes I can understand that. Thanks for watching.

[@davidboreham]

Attended a Frampton concert recently and noticed the same thing: his fingers hardly moved.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, maximum effect, minimum effort maybe.

[@DarkaFire]

Great video, I used to be able to read notation (organ player decades ago), but complete overkill for most guitarists and TAB can be useful to learn, but you shouldn't be a slave to it.

[@SillyMoustache]

Fair enough, thanks for watching.

[@deblane401]

I too cannot read notation, but I do understand what the note shapes means and how to play that note. I usually look for tablature and notation printed for the song. If it only has TAB then I search You Tube for the song and listen to it. This helps means to use TAB correctly. George in Montana

[@SillyMoustache]

Well George, I am aware that my thoughts might be contentious in some cases, and we don't all process information in the same way. Thanks as always.

[@deblane401]

@@SillyMoustache Andy, Everybody has to find out what works form. Please keep your videos coming, I always find them to be most helpful. George

[@John-ic6zo]

I once dated a girl who played the flute.But she could only play by reading music..I played guitar but couldn't read music..only tab. I have found Guitar Pro 8 computer software has helped me understand notation because you can have 6 line tab and 5 line staff above it on the screen.As you fill in the tab,the notation appears on the staff..

[@SillyMoustache]

I also had a girlfriend who was learning to play flute - she didn't like that I could play it better than her! I just looked at the Guitar Pro 8 thing. Mind bending.

[@desertfox3860]

I took music lessons starting at age 10 to learn to be a trumpet player. I played it for 20 years and became quite competent and of course could read music. I have been trying to play string instruments for many years now and simply cannot read tablature. It appears upside down and backwards to me an is very frustrating. I know chords and play all lead parts by ear.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, I'm glad that you have found a way to play in yuor own style. Thanks for watching.

[@joeysanguine3596]

Let’s have a cup of coffee together and sing❤😊

[@SillyMoustache]

Make mine tea.

[@andrewbowen6875]

Doesn’t like a c chord James Taylor apparently. So true though about how effortless and seamless his playing is

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Andrew, thanks as always.

[@John-ic6zo]

Tab shows you where to put your fingers.But not how long to play the notes for...

[@SillyMoustache]

If yu play your guitar upside down very slowly - Yup ! Thanks,

[@andrewbowen6875]

Have you got the tabs is definitely a thing and something I don’t care to understand. To my mind it just sucks the fun out playing. What tabs can’t convey is how Robert Johnson could play something low sounding and pull off a high pitched singing part

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi, Andrew, I got the definite impression that the transcriber for that Robert Johnson booklet did not enjoy his job, nor understand the music form of the late great RJ.

[@John-ic6zo]

Eric Clapton said you need two people to sing and play a Robert Johnson song...

[@SillyMoustache]

Yeah but what does he know! (another local to me hack!)

[@andreasfetzer7559]

We start speaking through hearing. Later, we learn to read, which is very important and helpful , being able to understand cognitive processes. The same is true with music. I learned to play by ear by myself, later i studied jazzguitar and i became a professional guitarist and had to learn sightreading but also music theory, I think , you should think less about reading , the time you spent making your video you better should have spent, playing.

[@SillyMoustache]

Hi Andreas, I agree with your first sentence, interested in your second, and somewhat disappointed by your last one. With many over 600 videos and nearly 10000 subscribers, I think that this might be my 4th discouraging comment in the last 12 years. Nevertheless, tanks for watching.

[@andreasfetzer7559]

@@SillyMoustache Hi, i didnt wanted to discourage you or anybody. I love your videos and your thoughts about our lovely instrument a lot. You are a very honest man, i think. And as i mentioned, i started to play by myself by ear without a teacher for the first couple of years and it was hard for me to learn to read and i thought, how can it be so hard for me. I felt just like you, til i just started to read very slow. First we think, we have to read and play through the whole thing, and wonder, why others can just do it, but they started early with reading, Some people lack , making music, like the one , who said, she needs a sheet to play. Thats bad. I think its possible to learn to read and be aware of the music, the same time, after a long time of practice. My last sentence was ment to encourage you to start reading, because sometimes we tend to thik to much about a problem, instead of solving the problem. I apologize, if i hurted your feelings. Andreas