My Thoughts on Mythic+ Having No Timer, But a Death Limitation...

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[@benjaminghazi787]

What if you keep the timer, but if you complete the key past time it doesn’t deplete and doesn’t upgrade.

[@rafaellontra2189]

seems like the ideal compromise

[@UncleBogator]

That’s the literal original deplete from early legion. I support this one

[@isaack8967]

@@UncleBogator Wasn't the original deplete more punishing? You had to do the entire dungeon again and got no loot or anything from it, which meant if you did it with pugs nobody would want to join your key.

[@ThomasBachler01]

You could even make this work in the same way that upgrades work, where: - your normal deplete doesn't upgrade, doesn't deplete, gives full crest and counts for the vault - your -2 deplete depletes the key by 1 gives and gives half crest and counts for the vault - and your -3 deplete depletes your key by 2, gives no crest and counts with -1 for the vault.

[@ate_my_wheaties]

This could incentivize people to treat their key like a raid and pull the same thing for hours. I like the idea of getting 3 chances to time a key before it depletes better

[@Ennar]

Timers are not a problem. If you can't time it, you still have homework to do. Simple as that and it doesn't matter if it's +2 or +16, the answer is the same. "But but... I need my mythic gear vault slot", yeah, cool... earn it. Here's a pro-tip: if you bind your interrupt and use it as often as possible, you will time all the keys that you are currently struggling with, no trouble. And one for the holidays: the best gift to your healer is throwing a def or two once in a while. Good luck and happy holidays!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ennar happy holidays! I agree fully with you here and too!

[@caroqt]

I think the timer should stay but what has to go is the key depletion in some way. Having a 14/15 key and trying to pug it and then someone makes a mistake that instantly depletes the key, or leaves and the only one that LOSES something being the key holder isn't fair. Also, let's say I have a 13 GB timed and I have a 14 GB key that I want to do but it goes badly and we deplete it, why should I then have a 13 GB again that I already proved I can time? I don't think having limited deaths instead of a timer is the way to go, but I am glad they are thinking about M+ and willing to make the necessary changes to make it better.

[@vladimirdosen6677]

It's not even about that. I can't think of a reason why you would double punish failure. i completely agree with you though. It's the stupidest thing ever. If they allowed people to simply choose the dungeon and level they wanna play, that would change the whole thing. Remove the keys completely in my opinion.

[@RogerDodger724]

Well said - Its too boring going below your level unless you help other players.

[@nexedpubg6121]

@@vladimirdosen6677 Remove keys? Then why would anyone even play, M+ is a big reason retail is popular.

[@vladimirdosen6677]

@nexedpubg6121 hop in the seasonal.dungeon and simply choose the level you wanna play for your group? You don't need a ket for it. Keys just restrict people from progressing faster so blizzard has time to release the next season and people won't exhaust the content and get bored after hitting their skill ceiling.

[@UnknownSoldier412]

This comment should be pinned it's that good.

[@tomswelt3689]

I would prefer the removal of the Timer. I think that would stop that everyone is defining their class through dps. Without a timer all classes, all builds, would have their chance because of their own uniqueness they can bring to the group. I think without a timer it would open up more creativity for classes and skills and not only dps.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Hmm ya I certainly do not think that. Sadly the reason that is the way it is right now is because the game is difficult. It sounds like it would be even more difficult if they removed the timer, and as such, there would be an even GREAT focus on this sort of thing, just on classes that can do great offense while also doing great defense. If it were to come today, many specs would be simply unplayable within that meta, where as at least right now offense alone is quite balanced so any spec can succeed.

[@DirtdoingThings]

Need the timer. Most exciting part of M+

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@DirtdoingThings ya it's really what defines the content type.

[@GMToaster]

I do not want to do dungeons where we do tiny pulls just to make it through without deaths. I like the race against the clock and huge pulls. I would like them to reduce the unavoidable aoe damage going out, revert the change they made to stuns only resetting spell casts, remove aoe caps from all players, put the affix back in all dungeons no matter how high and put the death penalty at 5 seconds again.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@GMToaster I agree it sounds way less exciting.

[@Jevantai420]

This is a terrible idea because it’s all about survivability. Imagine (especially in a PUG) you are on the last boss and it has 2% HP left and a player dies. In the current system, you can look over at the timer and see the dungeon has 15 seconds left to blast the 2% HP boss and clutch the dungeon. In this new system (same scenario) the boss has 2% but a player dies and uses the last dead. Now there’s absolutely NO CHANCE to clutch even though its 2% HP Boss and now everyone in the PUG is just going to be more toxic to this one individual. There’s no carrying your less experience friend, no close calls nor triumph instead, its just the individual dying at the pinnacle moment of the Dungeon and now everyone in the PUG has no reason not to be upset with this individual. This is a massive waste of development time for the game. Blizzard already has 3 adjustable knobs for current Mythic plus. They can revert the CC/Interrupt changes which affects almost every single player doing Mythic plus and presents less risk for the entire group. They can reduce Challenger’s Peril deplete time which still affects the upper majority of M+ players and reduces risk. Xalytaths Guile only affects the top extreme minority but I still think its dumb to put a wall of damage and Health increase on infinitely scaling game mode. I DO NOT want to login to Retail just to play a scuffed Classic WOW version of M+ nor do I want to be expected to play M+ at the pace of a fucking Raid. I play retail because I DO NOT LIKE Classic WOW gameplay and pacing and it’s nothing like Raiding.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Jevantai420 well said all around.

[@Rune__]

2:46 This is actually so true. What we have now is limited both by a timer and amount of deaths, because of the 15 second Challenger's Peril affix… I had not thought of it that way before 🙃

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Rune__ ya it's a good reason for them to consider change at least.

[@jakeleibow5152]

I think this is a horrible change. Having a timer makes sense it made different routes but now all I see is 1 route we all going to run cause it's the easiest

[@darkmenace5878]

we already have that though, in terms of routing, theres a best/easiest route for every dungeon. thats been a thing since mplus began.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@jakeleibow5152 I agree it's a bad change but obviously people already try to enforce this idea that there is only one route anyway.

[@therealvorthe]

I honestly think changing the timer to a death counter would cause even more toxicity in the community. I would assume they would keep the +2 +3 mechanics for completing the key, so people looking to +2 or +3 said key would bail on the first death. I think what they need to do is remove the time penalty for deaths, the run back and losing damage / cds for dying in the first place is a big enough hit to the group IMO and losing 15 seconds per body just feels... bad. I would also love to see them remove key depletion, we already have an NPC to lower keys, and the key holder being penalized for somebody more than likely leaving the key after one wipe just feels bad.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@therealvorthe really good thinking there, I didn't even think about how double and triple upgrades would work.

[@mattb1638]

I dont like it. You would just wait for all big cds to be up for every pull. This would significantly increase downtime and time in dungeon...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I don't think it makes any sense.

[@DOTzTheOmen]

I think a way to keep the timer but have it be less stressful is: 1- Have the timer count upwards instead of counting down. Have deaths add 15 seconds to your timer. 2- Dungeons have to be completed under certain thresholds for different medals. Gold is the equivalent of a +3 upgrade, silver being +2 upgrade, etc. Then, the objective becomes the speed at which you can complete the key. Some people can play for completion, not caring about the timer, and the rest can push limits to do it quickly.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@DOTzTheOmen I don't dislike this idea but I don't think it changes anything. The stress is really just in the mind.

[@DOTzTheOmen]

@heythereguysitsMetro I agree. It's definitely a "cup half full" fix, but it does help the stress of timer depleting. Now you'd just have a 45 minute Ara'kara on your IO because there were 20 deaths. You completed it, but not enough to earn notable points towards your score. Or do the death limit score alongside my suggested change. You got a broze time while under the 10 death limit for your +10, for example.

[@Frawt]

This change does literally nothing. Keep the current timer system and remove key depletion, et voila, it's the exact same thing.

[@DOTzTheOmen]

@@Frawt oh, I agree. But that wasn't the topic lol

[@siavashghasemi7548]

The only thing that makes M+ exciting is the time limite. just remove keystone make it like delves. if you want to do a +13 you have to first time +12 so you can unlock +13 ... simple.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@siavashghasemi7548 sadly it's not that simply. But I agree the timer is a big part of the enjoyment.

[@prod.bygygahurts304]

Yo metro, haven’t watched yet but will do soon, glad you are touching on this one. Imo without thinking too much about it yet, sounds like a horrific mode-destroying thing to do.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@prod.bygygahurts304 ya bad idea all around.

[@Misanthropy_7]

Great analysis as always.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks!

[@nomnomNACHO]

Keep the timer. Remove the deplete.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@nomnomNACHO that's likely a whole different topic from this.

[@Uko980]

If they switch to deaths they HAVE to fix the random one shotting that can happen. Since every mob in current M+ has casts you can be deleted out of existence if even 2 target the same person and get off. It would be beyond frustrating losing to random bs and promote people just waiting on cds between trash packs. If they do the cd timers only tick away in combat that seems like so much more work to ensure it works and is a bug free experience than just having the current timer and death time loss.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Uko980 ya at the end of the day this a LOT of work. Not really worth it.

[@Frawt]

This is such a silly comment lmao. Mythic+ is INFINITELY SCALING. HELLOOOOOO? Have you never done a key in your life? How tf would they get rid of one shots in an infinitely scaling system, especially when there was no timer anymore, and key completion was defined by stacked CDs on every pull? M+ being difficult for you will never stop being the case.

[@Uko980]

congrats on figuring out why death counter wouldnt really work in M+

[@DreadfulSun]

What if it was an option of either? like you can upgrade the key by beating it with a timer, or under like 20 deaths, and if you manage to complete both options it upgrades the key by +2? that could enable risky, fast paced play to get it over with asap but not worry the occasional death, or take it slow and keep the run clean, but also rewards good, fast gameplay

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya not a bad idea at all.

[@kronickmasturbater5226]

People would run 5 tanks or wait for lust and cooldowns on every pull and it would be hilarious and miserable

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, well to be fair I'm sure they wouldn't allow it.

[@musicxmp3533]

The only way I can see it working is in keys where it doesn't matter if you're undergeared or there is unbalance, like up to +7 or something. Potentially removing the timer from M+ and adding it back as an affix instead of Challengers Peril once you do +8 keys and higher. This would also bring it somewhat in line with +8 delves giving the same vault reward basically. This could help players learn the dungeon and teach them to complete it, without death and timer limits at a level where they feel comfortable in terms of their gear and competency. Playing with a completely new player who just picked up wow a week ago, learning to heal, the 5-7 range is where they actually have to know mechanics and learn their spec to avoid deaths, while not being too frustrating. I think there's more facets to this but this was my first thought.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That makes sense!

[@Ennar]

I think introducing timer at key +xyz just delays the problem you have currently with people not playing m0 (where you absolutely can learn your spec, dungeon mechanics, have no timer etc.) But I don't think you missed the mark completely, perhaps have m+whateveryouwant practice keys that you get from a vendor (or simply just select it like in delves) with no penalties at all (time or death), but you don't get loot or rating from it. Maybe some crests. That could fix the issue with people not getting invites simply because they didn't time a certain key, while 10 other people that applied did by, say, showing in rio the following text: best key for dungeon, practice key with best time xy:zw. If you never timed a 12, I'm not inviting you because chances are you never experienced the hell that's going to happen once we put the key in and will die constantly not because you are bad, but simply don't know that mechanics you easily have dealt with in 11 now one shot you. But with me seeing you did practice it and with ok result, then sure, welcome aboard fellow masochist.

[@sioc7478]

I wonder if a 1-15 scaling would work. Scrap M0 dungeons and scale 1-5 to have no timers and teach people how to play. 5-10 would be the challenging bit of content with a timer, extra mechanics, and the reward being once completed all dungeons on 5-10 will give you class ensambles and a weapon skin. 10-15 could exist for the dauntless. THEN mega dungeons should involve the bronze dragon flight allowing us to not be limited to expansion themed dungeons. They can go crazy giving us cool and unique boss mechanics to test out.

[@stevenm22]

I've been commenting and suggesting this as well.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@sioc7478 I'm not a fan of having different systems per different levels but I think you may be in to something here either way. It seems likely they may try to do something like this.

[@sioc7478]

@heythereguysitsMetro My thoughts were the same system, just different rewards per level bracet. 1-5 introduces you to the content. 5-10 the cosmetic rewards cap out, and 10-15 is just harder for people who like it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@sioc7478 well that would be different systems in my eyes.

[@Rattja]

About the balance, it's kinda funny when you think about it. There was a post recently showing a graph for the DPS, think it was the raid. It seems like a big difference when you just look at it, but when you realize that the X axis is like 2-6% +/- and it is actually quite well balanced. People tend to look at graphs, rankings, sims etc. and just see the bars or spots but never think about the actual difference and relationship between them in terms of numbers or actual performance. People also forget that players tend to pick the best option for success. That means that the best people will mostly play class X so you will not really see what class Y is capable of at the same skill level, cause they don't play it. That tends to skew the numbers and make something look worse than it actually is. That said, there will always be a meta no matter what they do, as there will always be some things that a class is better suited for. It can be doing damage, CC/interrupts or just survival, and it doesn't matter how much better, even slightly is enough. The only way to avoid it is to make everyone the same. If they were to do this, then there would need to be some serious changes to a lot of specs and mechanics to adjust to a heavy survival focused meta. Another thought I had is that it could also lead to some really stupid things, like if you have all the time in the world, what stops you from just kiting everything to death? That would make DH and Monk meta instantly with no equal.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Rattja ya balance is actually very good in most situations. There are very few dps examples that have ever been totally nonviable.

[@asasdsaasda]

I will share my thoughts before watching your take, I don't understand why people want to change m+ so much, this fixation some parts of the community have on timers is absurd, if you can't time X level because of time that means you are above your paycheck, lower the key and try to analyze why you fail the key and what's the common problem, blizzard keep making changes because the loud part of the community is laud, the point of M+ was competition, not sure why we reach the point where EVERYONE NEED TO DO X OR Z level of keys, M+ need more rewards and better support for tank/healer not to change the core point of the gameplay, I even seen people asking for a daily lockout on m+, I hope blizzard don't listen this time and just stick to what they wanted m+ to be, not everyone need to play high keys, not everyone need to play m+

[@vladimirdosen6677]

People who are victims of that system could be helped though. There is a ton of people wasting time playing with bad/troll players and getting their keys bricked for nothing. People value their time and don't want to waste it. I agree that the core of m+ is fine. Allow us to play the keys and levels we want on demand. The timer is there for a reason. What I don't get is why is there a second punishment for failure, when you're already punished once. It doesn't make sense. I am a healer and I'm pushing 14 keys right now, some timed, some not. The game is literally unplayable at this stage. There are times when I'm sitting for hours trying to get into a group because there are 2 keys listed. If people that I play with are offline, plugging is almost impossible. Just my 2 cents on it.

[@asasdsaasda]

@@vladimirdosen6677 Blizzard can't control the trolls and low-skill players, they messed up when they did the level squish, it used to be perfect before, 2-7 was pretty much Ello hell were bad players got stuck, 7-14 was bad but decent for your alts, 14-25 was decent players and 25 above was were the good players played, dungeon squish was unnecessary and cause more problems then it solved

[@vladimirdosen6677]

@@asasdsaasda If they removed key downgrade that would solve the trolls and low-skill issues. Even if they "brick" the key, you don't waste time, make a new group, and do what you wanna do. Also, I would argue that that's the point of a game. It's a toy. We are supposed to be able to do what we want to do and have fun doing it. I don't personally mind the difficulty and the health interrupt dynamic now. It's a different kind of gameplay I guess, nothing a player can't learn though.

[@Muziejininkas]

Many changes proposed in the video are bad, but m+ has problems. I would give more power to tank and healer roles, because they usually know dungeons best, right now we are too reliant on damage dealers, which are 50/50 and even if they are good, its chalenging to predict where someone will use cc or interupt. We can't teach players to respect mechanics or do more damage but in the end of the day other players suffer because of that. I would not lower the key, but keep it the same level, because it's a good oportunity to learn. Let's say as a healer I fail NW first pack healing check, maybe I could try to do it again, to learn it and not ruin someone else's key in the proccess. Everyone must play m+ to enter the content, kinda. You wont get enough gear in raids let alone invite, it will take very slow. I have no problem people failing high keys, if you fail constantly, maybe thats your limit, you still a good player. For me problem is long waiting, people looking for meta specs or carry players who drastically outgear the key. Leaving because of a single mistake or death is stupid as well and it happens a lot in low keys. If these things would be fixed, I believe more people would have fun. Its a game, not a job after all ;)

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@asasdsaasda ya I would have much rathered them change nothing than change everything. Hope it's just a question and that's the end.

[@chasexchaos9392]

I think the ideal compromise would be to just try adding it SEPARATELY. Choose which one you want to do. Maybe have a limited number of them allowed per week at first to test it?. Or have a vote if solo queue maybe? Idk, but there should be a compromise especially at first or they will alienate people

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@chasexchaos9392 ya I think it will just come with the solo q they asked about inna survey a few months back.

[@bloodroz]

I love the part where they said CC and utility becomes a potentially larger factor. When classes like warrior dps biggest problem getting into keys is their lack of utility and cc.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya if they make this change warrior is toast.

[@MikeyJ28]

Don’t know if you saw today’s Season of Discovery announcement but as of tomorrow’s reset, starting zones will have a vendor allowing you to get all of your classes runes for free at level 1.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@MikeyJ28 yikes well that sucks lol. That was the main thing I was interested in haha. I'll check the announcement though.

[@MikeyJ28]

@ You can still do the rune objectives normally but yeah why would anyone lol

[@bewaredavoodoo]

“Without a timer, what’s stopping you from bringing 5 tanks?” is honestly such a strong argument against the death counter that it single-handedly carries more weight than most of the points prior to it. I’m honestly surprised Blizzard is even entertaining the idea in the first place!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well I do believe they would likely enforce you to not bring more than one tank but ya it's a pretty damning price of the change haha

[@brianortega1637]

My suggestion for keys has always been to have a timer going upwards like a stopwatch, instead of going down and depleting. For example; Complete a dungeon in over 25 mins - Get 12 crests, your key does NOT deplete, it just stays the same key lvl. Complete a dungeon in under 25 mins - Get 15 crests, your key upgrades 1 level Complete a dungeon in under 20 mins - Get 18 crests, your key upgrades 2 levels Now, key pushers still have the incentive to push and go as fast as they can, as they will be rewarded with more crests and allow them to push their keys up 1 to 2 levels. But for the more casual audience, they dont have to worry about their keys ever depleting, it would just stay the same level, and they dont get the bad feeling of getting less crests for not timing a key, since they know going in, as long as they finish, they will get their guaranteed 12 crests. Obviously I picked arbitrary time limits and crests amounts. Times would be adjusted per dungeon, and Blizz can choose what they believe the appropriate crests amount are, but I really do think this will solve a lot of the anxiety of depleting keys as now they will no longer deplete. And if you are just having difficulty being able to finish a certain key level, then you would just speak with the panda lady to lower your key level to the desired key. But you have full control over lowering your key, only if you want to.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@brianortega1637 good thoughts thanks.

[@joveonlightbringer9684]

Imagine a world where EVERYONE reroles prot pally. Everyone is meta, because the meta is 5x prot pally. Class balance is easy, because everyone plays prot pally. Don't be trolling me with your squishy mage or hunter, when I could invite another prot pally! Augvoker maybe?... Nah even Augvokers could die too easy; better to just get another prot pally. Welcome to the world of M+ based on death counter.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it's a bad idea all around for sure.

[@MikeyJ28]

I’ve had this idea for a while if they switched to a life system, where each player gets 3-4 lives at the start of the dungeon and each player alive when a boss dies gets +1.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I don't think it works at all, but in principle what you described makes complete sense to me.

[@slarson9483]

We will be pulling 1 mob at a time, ccing every other mob. and waiting on BL for every pack.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Potentially. I assume they wouldn't allow that, some how. And also many people just wouldn't want to wait.

[@MikeyJ28]

“See you guys in 10 minutes when our lust debuff has fallen off” In all seriousness, the logical solution would be to simply remove Challenger’s Peril and replace the crest penalty with an item bonus if you finish a certain amount above time. What if you get one extra item in the chest for every X minutes left? The bottleneck for progression hasn’t been gear for most of us, it’s been crests. Between raid, m+ and delve, I have more gear than crests to upgrade.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@MikeyJ28 oh ya? That's strange given how few keys I finish I haven't had an issue at all. The changes tomorrow are obviously going to help that though either way.

[@beang7045]

Deaths are what starts the drama, and pivots away from completing keys, resulting in people leaving.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Right now imagine what it would be like if every death mattered far more than it does now.

[@dennisbrglum4035]

I would absolutely prefer the death country. All depending on how many deaths they allow of course. Put the time in for the sweaty +12 keys if people want to keep it. Or maybe it and option when you start the key to choose which one you want.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@dennisbrglum4035 if you prefer the death counter, what would you say to refute my points made about why it sounds problematic?

[@dennisbrglum4035]

I am sure it will be worse for people who pug and/or play the game as and esport. But for me who never pug and only do keys up to max +10, I would much rather have a super chill run with my friends and guildies. I have no need to do 100 keys a week, so the ones I play, I don't mind being slower. If people want to sit and wait for cd''s between pulls and other dumb stuff, that's on them.

[@cheatdeathproc]

Timers are fine. They allow you to overcome mistakes and make up for lost time. A straight up death cap has no give in it at all. As stated in this video, death caps in the absence of a timer would encourage and reward a game play style that would be boring and unappealing to me. That's what delves are for - let delves cater for that untimed content style

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed!

[@Supamikey1337]

Revised Mythic Plus System (Delve-style): Just keep the timer, but Keys no longer deplete: When you complete a Mythic Plus dungeon, you don’t lose or deplete the key. Instead, completing a dungeon within the timer unlocks the ability to use that key at a higher difficulty tier. You need to complete each tier to progress.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well this is assessing feedback directly about timers. Been a relatively hot topic since the beginning.

[@muttzTV]

With no timer, what's to keep people from forming a 5 tank group or people just waiting for CDs or Lust on every pull.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I discussed that in the video

[@metsfan1932]

Personally I would prefer the system that New World has. Basically at the end of a "Mutated Dungeon" in New World (which is basically M+) you get a "Score" which is based on a bunch of different metrics like number of deaths, time to complete, number of mobs killed, the number of mini bosses killed, etc. And then based on your score, you get either Bronze, Silver, or Gold. In order to unlock the next level, you need to get Silver on the current level. I think something like this makes a lot more sense as it allows you to fail in 1 category, but still succeed by excelling in other categories.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@metsfan1932 hmm interesting idea but I don't think that's the scope of what they are going for here. Maybe though!

[@metsfan1932]

@@heythereguysitsMetro I doubt they would take it that far at least without a lot more thought put into it but that's really the only way i could see making the timer no longer mandatory for "success" in M+. In the absence of much more thought put into this, the timer is the better system for sure.

[@BuddyguyBret]

If you had a death counter instead, you could pull lighter, take your time, and be as careful as you want. In a sense it is a very strong advantage vs. a timer because of this. Or maybe I’m wrong and there’s a much greater disadvantage I’m not thinking of. 🤷‍♂️ Also I just thought, it would eliminate the need for ridiculously high dps, as it would be more of a survival check than anything.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I talked on those points in the videos and offered reasons why that is not a good trade off. Give it a watch!

[@Homer5235]

I play many keys with my alts as well, generally for timed keys you can say on low keys you have way more deaths then on high keys.

[@Ennar]

Of course, 5s are much more difficult than 10s, because people. Those that want this change (the low end players) wouldn't actually be able to do keys that they are doing now because they die too much and carrying would be gone. You can't carry a low end player with death limitation unless they are specifially not doing anything in the dungeon, and for that, sir, I'm going to need to see some crazy gold.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ennar this is a really good point I didn't fully consider. It's going to REALLY make low keys a mess.

[@Ennar]

@@heythereguysitsMetro well, since we are discussing it, someone pointed out to me that non-timed death cap lower keys being harder could be a feature, not a bug. There's something really funny about players that refuse to learn mechanics and use interrupts asking for removal of timer being tricked into learning the game that they are actively refusing to do. Now I think we should do it, but return the squished key levels for non-timed death cap, and maybe let timer start at, say, current +4 (which would be +14 again, without death cap obviously). That just might prevent people that don't know mechanics from getting hero loot and outgearing mechanics without ever truly learning.

[@dldallas5570]

A surprisingly cold take. If I am tanking a pug and I feel like I can’t take the time and stop to give instructions to a specific DPS that they should interrupt X caster without getting crucified by the group for wasting time then the timer is the problem. There are solutions to waiting for CDs, and back in the day when we had to CC trash there was still an impetus to move quickly. We have CC spells for a reason and they sadly go unused these days.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@dldallas5570 this seems like a really strange thought process. Strategizing mid key is not a feature of pug content anywhere. If you want to do that, you would get in discord.

[@stoutside]

maybe it could work with just having encounter limiters like gauntlets and enrage timers. so youre not waiting for cds for each pack but the next 10 packs are a part of a continuous encounter keeping you in combat. effectively creating moments within the dungeon to breath and pause.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its possible ya. Some affix that powers up after 1 minute of combat or something.

[@mwaffi]

I'd like to give it a try, or alternatively just have it as a separate game mode. For me specifically, the ability to pause for real life stuff is what I long for the most. I also quite liked the old school CC-style dungeon gameplay but that's secondary. Frankly, all I want is a game mode that's more difficult than heroic dungeons but isn't a speed run game.

[@papichulo97]

Wouldnt delves fill this niche?

[@mwaffi]

@@papichulo97 sort of. I did play a lot of them in the beginning of the expansion but they're not particularly challenging. Also, I like the teamwork dynamics of a co-op game and delves are even easier in groups.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think it would come in conjunction with a soloq system for sure. but ya, might be just delves! The idea of "pausing for real life stuff" is kinda a non-starter anyway. No one wants to wait for you. In regular dungeons that just means 4 manning.

[@LordCartmanGaming]

Oh boy, what a mess. Here are my thoughts: The argument of waiting for CDs would be catastrophical because not every class has the same CDs. Ret palas would cry because they'd wait 30 seconds unti the 1 minute CD classes are ready, and all would wait for the 2-3 minute CD classes (idk if Boomkin still has 3 minutes on incarn). Then you have CD reduction for certain speccs which need engagement. Disc Priest is a big one. When playing Disc I know what pulls I can use a CD because I know after that there is enough down time to reduce my CD via Smite spamming. Another issue here would be that to justify it, pulls would need to get bigger which can be a hardship on tanks. Like people already argue routes need to be shared to plan CDs. With that change before a key starts someone would argue the same, to plan pulls and CDs etc. It goes completely against the nature of PUGging which is "go in, wreck enemies, feel great and be done" Then ofc there is the issue of deaths not being able to be mitigated compared to bad damage. Especially on lower keys if there is one DPS that is blasting you could have an afk DPS and an augvoker and still time it. But someone dying every pull? No way to counter that. IMO this would be a horrible change and I personally would probably quit playing WoW all together because M+ is what keeps me going and if they change such a fundamental aspect of it (finishing a key in 30-40 minutes) the mode would simply be dead to me. I rarely play more than a couple hours, most times it is 1 hour at a time where I do 2 keys and be done for the day.

[@Ennar]

Everything you said is correct. For example, fire mage would be gone from m+ forever (for couple of reasons), even if we don't go straight to 5 paladins meta. Of course, people that look forward to this change don't play fire mage because they can't play it and don't care about it. Like many other specs. They also don't understand that the gatekeeping from higher keys would be even worse than now because not dying in m+ is actually a lot harder than just timing it with penalty. Carrying would be gone from m+, if you keep dying, you are just gonna get insta kicked from any group, because group will have better chance without you. I think many people are not understanding that they are almost surely higher ranked than their individual performance, because they got lucky with that one group that carried their ass and 1 win vs 100 failures still counts towards rating positively. And finally, this would be more boring gameplay than farming professions in vanilla from 0 to 300 without a break.

[@LordCartmanGaming]

@@Ennar Yeah I have not played fire mage this season so idk how it performs but another thing is dmg ramp. As demo lock it takes a couple GCDs until I summon tyrant, but on low keys that means the mobs are already dead. But yeah the biggest issue would be that a death limit can not be mitigated by others playing better, so it becomes even less of a group effort and more of a "let's kick those who are bad" effort and further enhance the already existing mentality of players thinking they are better than everyone else. And yeah most players do not realize when they get carried. It took me I think 8 runs of city of threads to time the 10. The first groups I was top DPS, died the least amount of times, used defensives etc all the time, avoided the most avoidable dmg. It felt horrible but then the run I timed was a group where I was 3rd DPS, died more times due to mistakes and basically only timed because the other players played better. I loved that run because not only gave it perspective of how bad I play even if I am better than the other members, but it also showed me that my own performance is simply a part of a group effort. So any m+ change needs to focus on how group effort can be made better and not how to make it easier for players to blame those performing worse. This death counter imo would do exactly that so that is the main reason I hope so much it will not be implemented. But if it does, I got plenty of other games I can play which give me similar challenge (scaling difficulty, timer and variety) but sadly without the group aspect as those are single player games

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@LordCartmanGaming ya just too many barriers. They can potentially design around them but it's just not worth the effort.

[@Ennar]

@@LordCartmanGaming what you wrote about your 10 is exactly what made you good enough player to even attempt it: self-awarness and will to improve, something that people that can't time a +4 don't have. My first 10 at the start of this season (not even timed, just for the vault) was also me getting carried by a friends group in which I died too many times. The friend wanted me to play more 10s with him, but I said, nah, it's not for me yet, I don't understand the mechanics well enough. Currently I do 10s and 11s with ease and progressing 12s with almost full bis mythic gear. People just want best loot with no effort. Somehow they probably understand that mythic raiding is way above them so they give that up and try for it in m+. We need improved delves with gearing options similar to m+, so crybabies can do that instead of m+ and we delay "the game is too hard for me to progress" for another 5 or 6 years until delves get the same treatment. The sense of entitlement many players have is too real. Actual issues with current m+ have nothing to do with timer.

[@dirkgoodman4282]

Haha, if your child is barking. No matter what they do, i will always play it because i love it, but i do agree with you, I'd rather have the timer.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I think the system is fine as it is right now. No need for huge changes like this.

[@DaveStarfire]

Without the timer, people will play dungeons in terms of hours, using hard CCs on dangerous mobs, waiting for CDs, etc. People would just play super risk-averse. I like M+ in that it has a limited time, you start a dungeon, and generally the dungeon will finish one way or another within an hour. If I had to spend over an hour in a dungeon playing like that, it wouldn't be worth my time for the rewards M+ gives. They would have to make the loot like traditional dungeons, each boss dropping a couple pieces of loot. Now, I'm not saying I haven't spent over an hour in a M+ trying to get a bunch of friends a vault in a key they wouldn't otherwise be able to get, but even that was played in M+ style, just a bunch of boss wipes made the dungeon long. Now, I wouldn't mind it being an additional option that people can choose, but it's not something I would normally enjoy or want to supplant current M+.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya I don't think it would replace M+ as we know it. I think it would come with SoloQ that was also asked about in a survey a few months back.

[@timhundhausen1386]

Removing the timer can be good or bad - if you identify a player that clearly does not do mechanics, behaves poorly in chat or does not play their spec well you will actually be able to kick them and invite a different player. However, malicious players can vote out a pug right before the final boss either to troll or to get a friend the key completion/loot unless this is prevented by a system feature.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@timhundhausen1386 oh that's a big leap there lol. There is no indication they would let you switch out teammates just because they remove the timer. That's a way bigger deal than just due to timer.

[@timhundhausen1386]

@heythereguysitsMetro true it's a leap. Not sure how they'd design it but if kicking teammates or leaving groups were the same as it is now it'd be a disaster. So it'd have to be considered in the design of the game mode (of course I have full confidence Blizzard would do a good job of conceptualizing against such behavior...)

[@Netherstrasz]

Deaths instead of the timer is one of the stupidest ideas they're considering. I'll merely name a few: Speed running is fun. Mythic plus is designed partially around this concept. Beating your times is a benchmark that can be clearly measured and the idea of +2 and +3 is engaging.. Griefing will not be deterred in any way. It'll be just as easy, or easier, to brick keys. Runs will take longer with encouraging groups to sit and wait for cooldowns and brudrust. Not fun at all. The meta will completely change and revolve around classes based more on survivability or kiting more than they are now. More class stacking, too. And we already have problems with tierlists, don't need this added. What happens to affixes then? They'll have to be removed or redesigned. Some affixes were amazing (mostly seasonal). And I'll add this. Metro, I will add this. If they're considering this, they might as well call it something else, because it won't be mythic plus.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Netherstrasz ya totally agree. Not a good change and if they did it it basically wouldn't be mythic plus any more.

[@Netherstrasz]

@ The whole thing triggers me because there’s other, better things they could be doing. While it’s possible they might simply be implementing other things without needing to do a survey, there’s no guarantees and seeing this is just stupid

[@rodchester3]

I don't think there's any surprise this came out during this season. Deaths were never really a big issue in M+ until this season (unless it was a group wipe). I think they should just come up with a new affix and probably make the timers a bit more lenient to encourage people to try and finish the dungeons even if you wipe once or twice and not be so focused on the best specs in the game (even though we all know the community will always be meta slaves regardless of difficulty and the actual differences in specs).

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well it's likely because they saw it work with delves haha But ya I agree.

[@Ennar]

Here's the thought. With death limitation, you can forget invites if you are a caster. What you will have is 4 tanks and 1 healer meta. The only thing that's preventing that in raids is enrage timers.

[@Ennar]

That would be a death of m+. Everyone I know that plays m+ would stop playing WoW if they do it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@Ennar I agree. Although I'm sure they would do something to prevent this behavior.

[@Ennar]

@@heythereguysitsMetro they already have the solution, it's enrage timers. Which would turn m+ into mini raids, just worse. There simply isn't any benefit to removing timer other than removing anxiety of some people, but I think it would be much better if Blizzard had the following loading screen hint: "Even if you don't time a key in m+, you can still get loot!!" Judging by lots of comments, some people are apparently not aware of this. The dissapointing amount of crests for not timing key is already solved with 11.0.7. Anyway, I read on Icyveins or Wowhead that the survey also included suggestion to include tags to your LFG key titles, like: "timing", "learning", "completion", "meta". I think that would solve much more toxicity problems than turning m+ into abandoned child of raid and delves.

[@FMGHarlequin]

I think its Dead on Arival. You'd never want to bring a DPS player if the "per second" doesn't matter. This is handled in raid by having "Enrage" mechanics so you can't just fight the same boss for 2 hours in a group of only tanks and healers. For this to "Work" they'd need to put Enrange mechanics on not only the bosses but also the trash. Also, can you imagine the meta of: running out f the dungeon inbetween trash and bosses so you can reset your talents from AOE to ST? Or so you can swap comps from from 5 tanks to 3 tanks 2 healers. Miserable. That being said, I could see it as an Event or Exhibition type mode Where when you die, you're kicked out of the instance permenantly. Call it Mythic + Hardcore, make it give a mount or something. Not as the main way people interact with M+ though...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@FMGHarlequin ya totally agreed here.

[@hicarn]

Didn't read all the comments so sorry if this is already mentioned but what if they did a bit of a hybrid system? Keep the timers but instead of Challengers Peril dropping time off the time, put a hard stop on deaths. So this way, you can't wait for CC or cooldowns as you still have a timer to compete with but if you reach, say, 20 deaths, then it's a hard brick. Not sure if I like it personally but maybe this would be an alternative that could work? It would be very similar to what we have now in a way BUT this way the timer wouldn't be affected by deaths. I do agree that having ONLY a death count will lead to some very slow boring gameplay. People will be too afraid to try anything fun, will be the death of giant pulls... Please blizz, don't make it death counter with no timer.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I like this idea! I think it was just not something we really discussed because of the way they worded the question. It was instead of a timer, which is a big thing a lot of people keep asking for for whatever reason. But I think people think they would just remove the timer and nothing else would change which OBVIOUSLY is not going to happen.

[@BigD4205]

Honestly, I think M+ needs the changes that happened with Torghast, where the timer is kind of hidden and it's on a point system where you get more points the faster you finish, lose points per death, gain points for doing mechanics correctly/interrupts, gain points for performance, lost points for taking avoidable damage and missing interrupts, gain points for killing more trash etc... At the end of the dungeon you get the star ratings you got in Torghast and could be individually or as a group rating. I think that would open up different routes and strategies to approach dungeons depending on classes and utility you have since you gain points on execution and not only on speed. There's still going to be a meta and best way of doing dungeons that's unavoidable. I feel that could be a good change since right now going in any key with only casters ie shadow priest, balance druid, and any other caster plus a priest healer is almost impossible to time keys because of the lack of interrupts that group as and with the point system you could approach the dungeons differently to make it better for those kind of groups.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@BigD4205 ya not a fan of any of that but I'm happy to give it a try if they do it!

[@liamdavies2823]

Maybe i'm being an idiot but do we think blizz are designing seasons according to what they want to make meta? Or maybe this is well known and I'm late to the realisation? Like in this season having lots of kicks, grips etc are very strong at the same time shamans and dks are naturally very strong dps-wise. In DF you could take 2 shadow priests and a boomy and it was fine because psychic scream/vortex+typhoon/incap roar worked as kicks too.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@liamdavies2823 those things worked because vengeance was able to interrupt every single spell cast in the dungeon alone. Similar story today with paladin carrying disc priest.

[@liamdavies2823]

@@heythereguysitsMetro sure that helped a lot but nobody was taking a veng in season 2 and it was fine then too

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@liamdavies2823 well season two was mostly on the back of Aug. Another spec with many AOE stops.

[@thundergodd6086]

Agreed with your assessment.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@thundergodd6086 good to hear!

[@lastfaza8532]

this timer wouldn't be a problem if they nerf the punishment or just used it as a source of leaderboard ranking system like you said. I won't deny the fact that this timer is best for elite raiders/hardcore players as a competitive purpose. But I can't deny the other fact that most players aren't elite raiders/hardcore players either.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya no doubt. I wish there was an easier solution to make both parties happy.

[@celery4564]

This is the dumbest solution to M+ I have heard so far. Just don't have keys deplete when you miss the timer.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I don't think it's that kind of discussion tbh. They are just exploring ways to change the system in its progressive elements.

[@DoubleMeatpalace]

Timer is definitely a stressor. I run with some people that do 10+ but don't push any higher really and one of the biggest reasons why is feeling rushed. You have a big stressful pull or a crazy boss where everything doesn't go right but you still pull it off then you immediately have to go to the next pull. They don't feel like they have time to breathe. I think, whether you have deaths vs time, having something that adds time or deaths after killing a boss would be good.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, at the end of the day though that's usually about inexperience, or prior anxiety. Its not really a design constraint. Once you get experience in keys and get in that flow state, you realize the timer is inevitable and nothing to fear.

[@sirdiealott]

This might be a good conversation to have with Kop sometime when it comers to dungeon anxiety. I like the idea, just because bathroom breaks and such. I think the problems you cite like people just standing around waiting on cooldowns is very good and I think the likely outcome. EDIT: While I was finishing up the video I had this idea. The M+ level determines the quality of the drop. The death count determines the quantity of the upgrade tokens you receive at the end. The timer rewards the score ranking.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@sirdiealott good thinking there tbh. I think you are on to something!

[@sirdiealott]

@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah the more I thought about it, the more I thought this could work. Add in, a completion is an upgrade. Want to spend 4 hours per dungeon run to hike your key up to +30? Go for it. It adds more ways for people to challenge themselves instead of just a timer.

[@GreenChaos104]

the solution isn't to make the timer go away, it's to make not timing less punished. this idea to completely remove the timer is a "blizzard doesn't understand the problem" kind of moment in my opinion. the timer itself isn't the issue, it's what it causes: rampant leaving, reduced rewards, depleted keys. it looks like they are starting to work on lessening these punishments, and they need to stay on that track, not change direction completely. they've already had a good start with leaver bans and the crest changes, if they maybe look at key depletion and somehow fix that (i know the community has about 7000 ideas on how to do that, i'm sure blizzard could come up with something), the timer will be way less of an issue. having a timer is good, because 1. it's exciting (last boss falling over 2s before the timer is over is such a huge "holy shit we did it" feeling) - death limit would have less of such moments, maybe one or two "holy shit you had like 1% health and survived", but inherently i think death limit would be more anxiety inducing than exciting 2. it incentivizes high risk-high reward gameplay (how big can we pull to facilitate timing without dying and losing out on the reward of such a pull, what's the optimal fastest route that we can actually execute) - death limit exclusively promotes low risk-low reward gameplay as mentioned in the wowhead post 3. it makes routing more interesting (this one is mainly for static parties, not pugs, but stuff like what can we do with our particular utility as a party to enable faster AND safer routes, what do our cooldowns look like and how do we plan CD and non-CD pulls, giving the route a certain rhythm) - death limit would still be interested in comp-specific skips, but would always go for the safer, never the faster route, cooldown planning is irrelevant because you'll just sit out of combat while cooldowns come back, allowing every pull to be a CD pull 4. it helps people estimate how long a key will take, allowing for better time planning - death limit could vary times wildly, depending on how long cooldowns are, depending on how slow a tank is going to ensure success vs faster to not sit in the dungeon for hours (although i'm sure average dungeon time would be smth we'd get used to, plus a depleted key can run for however long as it is rn, so this is maybe a lesser point) 5. it ensures that dungeons are completed in a timely manner (a timed m+ is a maximum 35 minutes this season, and you can reasonably expect most "standard" pug parties to complete within that 30-45 minutes, generally it only takes any longer than that if we're talking about something like "we'll struggle through this 10 for the vault regardless how long it takes", but that's generally a pre-agreed upon plan) - death limit would inevitably take significantly longer, because you are constantly waiting on CDs, unless the dungeons themselves become significantly smaller i think that the toxicity for accidental deaths would become super rampant in such a mode - and i don't think creating more reasons to act like an asshole towards other people is the way to fix m+. with challenger's peril, i already physically wince when i die to something even as dps (whether or not it's my fault), but at least i can do my best to fix the problem by doing enough dps for the 15s to not matter in the end. as someone struggling with a LOT of social anxiety, this change might keep me out of pugging m+ for good i think the 'real life emergency' situation is, well, unfortunate. it happens. if the penalties for not timing a key aren't as harsh, i don't think anyone will really care - and at the end of the day, it's a video game, it's always going to come second to an irl sos. if they really want to make super-duper sure people aren't getting shit over such emergencies, include a consensual disband vote, which teleports everyone out, resets the key, and doesn't deplete it, so the only thing people are losing is some time (a solution just off the top of my head, you can probably poke holes in it pretty easily, but still). removing the timer isn't gonna fix this, because people still might need 20-30 minutes to fix an irl problem, or can't even continue at all, and at the end of the day, that's the same as bricking the key through a timer, because honestly, i'm not going to sit around for 30 minutes waiting for a stranger to get irl stuff done when i could be applying to and running a different key in that time - not out of malice, but out of my own time being valuable. sorry about the long comment, i've been turning the idea of this survey over and over in my head since i first heard about it and had a lot to say 😅

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Thanks for your passion. Unfortunately this IS a discussion about removing the timer haha Like that's feedback they have received, and this was their solution to address it. There are just some people who will never like timers, and that's not going to go away no matter what else they change. The REAL solution is to just stop listening to that feedback and realize that those players probably wont EVER be happy with the system, no matter what they change.

[@stephanmeyer1726]

What if the timer only ticks in combat and pauses outside of it?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haven't considered that idea but maybe!

[@Ennar]

Then, after we kill a pack, I'll go out of dungeon, switch my talents or spec, take a shower, walk my dog, and return when we have bloodlust and all cds. Kind of like in raid, except in raid you get all of that by simply resetting boss for the obvious reasons.

[@Zyro_GG]

My take: - Remove the timer and set the failure condition on x deaths. Let‘s say 5 deaths to start with - Introduce a new timer that sets breakpoints for each boss - if you beat the boss before the breakpoint you get extra lifes (deaths you can take before you fail) - if you beat the boss very quick u get more lifes than if you beat it just barely - if you don’t beat the timer, you simply get no extra lifes This way there might be a balance between strategic play, making sure you don‘t die (too often) and still go fast in order to increase your chance of living later on in the key

[@evolburd5768]

the problem is this doesnt solve any of the issues. you can just stop and take your time and lust every pull and people dont die. adding lives that arnt going to be used is a useless mechanic.

[@Zyro_GG]

@@evolburd5768 i disagree… obviosly you CAN wait after every pull and recover cd‘s, but nobody really wants to do so if it‘s non needed. Let‘s take classic or M0 as an example, are people waiting after every pull? No… Will people in cutting edge keys do that? Sure… is that a problem? I don’t think so. I‘m not even sure they would, because by doing so they‘re risking to deplete off of 1 wipe, since they went too slow and didnt get extra lifes. And it would offer the possibility on lower keys to take the time you want to take, which is why you would remove the timer in the first place. Or go fast if you’re just on a farm key and are not in danger of dying anyway

[@evolburd5768]

@Zyro_GG show me where in classic or m0 there is a death counter? Give ya hint there isnt one so people just yolo since deaths mean nothing. As someone who does push hard content this would actually kill the game for me since i would pushing into that area where people would have to wait. If you want to make content like that then use delves and dont ruin m+ for the rest of us.

[@Zyro_GG]

@@evolburd5768I‘m referring to Classic Hardcore. And tbh in the current state of M+ going fast and risking death already kills your run

[@evolburd5768]

@Zyro_GG no it doesnt. Dying in m0 or classic will not kill a run. So its not a comparable example.there are no comparable examples in game currently.

[@nahnahkranoth6849]

That would definetely shift the meta and for the worse. If there is no timer we just wait between the packs for cooldowns. Is your main one 3min? You are dead spec- we have specs with 30/45/60 seconds colldowns, no one will be waiting for you. With 10 pulls in dungeon you are adding 20- 25 min waiting just for you. Are your defensive abilities protecting against only x% damage? We have specs with better ones. Are defensives on long CD? You are dead spec. Have you got aoe stun? Have you got aoe stop? Can you CC mob for a minute? Can you dispel poisons/diseases? Can you dispel enrage/buffs from mobs? You guess- you are a dead spec... With those restrictions bringing 3/4/5 tanks is not a crazy idea.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@nahnahkranoth6849 ya totally agree. Defensive imbalance is far far greater so the meta issues becomes much worse.

[@HeIIaAverage]

It could just be a separate endgame pillar. I don't have any problem with that. I'll stick to mythic+ myself. But you can't really compare the timer and affixes, imo. The idea that affixes have to exist is a learned response. If they were never there from the beginning, you would never miss them and the idea of adding them would be foreign to you. There are tons of ways to add difficulty to dungeons without being gimmicky crap like the affixes we have.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think they would do this as part of the soloqueue they asked people about a few months back ya.

[@midnyte_tv]

I also think that the slippery slope notions of people bringing in multiple healers is just not going to be a mainstream thing.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well I don't think it would be ALLOWED haha But it would absolutely be mainstream if it was. People already sit there for 20 minutes waiting for a specific comp and then fail to the first pack. The game is really played in strange ways, and you have to consider that when proposing changes

[@Xanthem420]

Timer adds to the challenge aspect of m+. I think its depletion that needs attention. Timing a 10 NW, going to the 11 GB, and then being stuck with a 10 GB that youve already timed is just annoying(random dungeons and levels thrown in, any run+key lvl applies). At that point its a crest farm run, and if i wanna farm gilded i can just run a +8 and not trip....

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I agree with you but I don't think this change is one they are proposing to adjust the failure thresholds at all.

[@jeffryb7883]

I've heard decent arguments for having a timer only on +7 or higher keys (basically changing Challenger's Peril to be the timer) but removing the timer for all key levels is an incredibly bad idea. The only people this would benefit are people running keys they shouldn't be running anyway. And people think it's hard to pug into keys now, just wait until only defensively powerful specs or specs with insane burst are invited. Plus this will just turn people off from playing tanks and healers further, since deaths will be significantly more punishing - especially tank deaths. With a timer, a full wipe can be recovered if your dps are good enough (on low keys, anyway), but if you're only allowed like 10 deaths before deplete then suddenly a full wipe is literally half of your death allowance. Honestly, with tomorrows changes to dispels/tankbusters/gearing, I think m+ will be in a decent spot. They've hit all of the big issues that have been discussed by the community, changing the timer to a death counter would be too far. I would be a lot less inclined to run keys or even remain subbed if they were to implement this change, and I know a lot of the people I play with would feel the same.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed all around!

[@wiecaszekpawel]

Don't do this cuz it will break the game. It's obviously for struggling players which would lead to higher end players getting bored of the game and leaving. Don't let delves die, keep the death count in the delves and make them scale infinetely like m+ for better rewards. Delves+ yes!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya great point here tbh. This utterly destroyed delves.

[@ragg6]

My take is to have two modes for m+. One timed and another not timed. No deathcount in untimed . Only timed will get earn you rio. Loot will stay the same exept for timed will get you mythic gear from 12.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ragg6 ya I think they will do this.

[@ight001]

I think wording the point as "There must always be a constraint on Mythic +" was what you were meaning originally and I agree with that point. With out a constraint a key is just a chest with a long and complicated lock picking mini-game and there is no prestige to ever going higher than the minimum necessary level for your weekly valut / currency. We're even seeing Blizzard currently change how the system works to encourage players to try higher level keys, by improving the rewards (yes I understand this was to also not have players have bad interactions with each other in keys, 8s for example). However, I don't think a death timer is how to go about it. Imagine the situation where you are pulling not even one pack, but one mob at a time, using CC on 3 other mobs, because each mob is almost as strong as a boss. More keys taking over an hour to finish simply because not dying is more valuable than speed. I think that would lead to animosity amongst players, and even more toxicity over deaths, I feel it's not great currently but it could be so much worse. You bring up great point about composistion as well. If there was a death counter in M+ you'd just go 5 Blood Death Knights, rotating your cheat deaths to manage tank busters.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ight001 well said all around!!

[@christopherdaffron8115]

This survey suggests a death limit like Delves. Delves used to be full wipe deaths only, then Blizzard changed it to individual deaths. Delves are solo able but Mythic+ Dungeons are not. Why not just have full wipes count for the death meter in Mythic+? Also, if Blizzard would implement this for Mythic+ then why not keep the timer as well, but let the group choose between the two choices at the start of the run?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Very interesting thinking here. Love that!

[@ShemzySG]

I thought that one of blizzards biggest issues with M+ was trying to encourage players to finish dungeons. This would be the complete antithesis of this, if you hit your death cap then what happens? The run is just over and you all hearth out? The fixable problems with M+ are smaller than requiring a massive overhaul. I think the timer is essensial, but the cost of depletion is currently too high, and that while blizzard are afraid of making larger changes to class balance as to not sway the pendulum too far in the opposite direction, I don't ever remember a Mythic+ season where the meta was so polarising, particularly when it comes to Tanks and Healers. It's no wonder tanking is so miserable when the spec representation looks the way it does right now. Completely agree with your analysis, the gameplay for a solely death limited dungeon experience just has different problems rather than fixing current ones, and the problems arising from a death limited dungeon sound way worse that timer limited. Can''t think of anything worse than taking off all my Raid gear to wear my "Versatility survivability" set and do half the amount of damage just so that there's less chance of dying. I'd also question what do dungeons even look like at the limit of what's possible for a pug. If you're already playing at a high level in M+ we are already in a "make a mistake and you die" scenario. What is the limitation that makes things challenging? Having the timer puts a soft cap on how hard blizzard can actually make trash in a dungeon. I don't want each trash pull to feel like i have to solve a rubicks cube blindfolded. Big pulls for big DPS is fun.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

@@ShemzySG I don't know how it would work but I will say this would dramatically improve the outlook on leavers. Right now a lot of people try to guess the timer being over after some early problems. Have a video on this tomorrow where the group gives up before the first pull is even over. That would stop if they make it so the "success" is only based on number of deaths.

[@NicholasW943]

I like the timer. If they want to make some sort of fail condition tied to deaths, they could just extend the timer on the dungeons and make deaths deduct more. If a key takes 30 minutes today, then maybe after the change it'll be 40, but the average deaths in the dungeon will knock it down to 30. Worse groups fail keys more because of deaths, better groups benefit because they have more time from lack of deaths. Making only deaths count will make tanking way less fun. Tanks like chaining packs. It keeps things interesting for them and let's them do a lot of cool route stuff. I don't think I'd ever want to tank if the optimal playstyle was pull pack -> kill pack -> wait for CDs -> pull pack and repeat. That sounds so lame. Also, a lot of packs are just stupid rough when it comes to group AoE. Can you imagine joining a key and you have to tell everyone to just take 5 because you're going to solo the pack because you know the healer won't be able to keep up the DPS? What a nightmare.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Some one else suggested an idea to make the "timer" exist in a way that if you clear checkpoints faster you get deaths back. Otherwise, you just make sure you have no deaths and go slow.

[@jackiethomas3301]

I like the timer, i think it was best when it was 5seconds. I wouldnt mind a sideways untimed dungeon content like the mega dungeon

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, and they tried to make zeros more important and better gearing wise, but delves just ran all over them sadly.

[@concho69]

The issue with removing key depletion is you now create a scenario for players that just because you were in a group that time it as a fluke or not you are "entitled" to do +14 and not the 13 because you were in a group that worked decent enough to actually timed it, doesn't mean you can time that level, it just mean that team were competent enough to do so together. Also you are creating a even worst shortage of pool of players to choose from, because now you feel no need to do lower keys and just keep trying the 14 until you either get tired of it or ask blizzard to nerf something so you can progress. TLDR, key depletion is a integral part of the M+ world. The issue currently with M+ is the fact that Blizzard did a lot of changes in different fronts on Season 1 and no one knows how to tackle it or what the real issue is and people just keep asking for things that breaks the M+ wheel for no reason. The biggest issue of M+ right now is leavers and a toxic community because of it. Create a more strict environment where people have to respect other peoples time when committed to do a key with 4 other players. Put in place a leavers penalty for your account ( not characters ) Warband makes it too easier to avoid that. They can even have several options to choose how to implement it, either when creating a M+ group you can choose an option to bind everyone on the key for the penalty, if someone leaves in the middle of the run for whatever reasons doesn't matter you get 30 min to 1 hour ban this would be for the 1st leaver after that everyone can leave if they do desire. The other way would be having the ban action active for the 1st person leaving or until time on the key runs out, if the timer runs out and people decide to leave then that is fair. Start from tackling where the most toxicity live on the game which is on the leavers then see how it goes from there.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

They have already begun pushing back against the leavers thankfully.

[@rokman5000]

If I wanted to go back and play dungeons like I did in Vanilla I'd go play Classic. I wish people would stop trying to turn retail back into classic. If they want that so much they should just go play classic. Leave us alone with our timers.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

This I would not say is turning it into classic at all. But I get your point, and at the end of the day I believe the timer is not replaceable.

[@DanTheLock]

What are everyone's thoughts on keeping the timer but adding some sort of "pause" to the timer and to CDs? Worst part of M+ is the time commitment for me. Doorbell rings? SO needs help with something? There are a wealth of small things that could take your attention away from the game for just a few minuets that I think some sort of "pause" feature is actually the solution I'd want personally.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya not possible under the current conditions. Too many ways to game it.

[@ate_my_wheaties]

Keep the timer. It’s what makes mythic plus what it is. I like the idea of reducing the punishment for failing the timer. Rather than tossing depletion entirely, I think keys should have something like 3 “charges” or chances to time it before it depletes. If keys never depleted it would incentivize people to treat their keys like a raid and pull the same things over and over again, turning them into a total slog. But I think the deplete system as it is can be a huge bummer and can really mess people up when they want to push certain dungeons using their own key. Tldr, keep the timer, give more chances to time before a key depletes

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Agreed! I am in favor of changes to depletion, but to be fair that is not what we are discussing here. This is a discussion about how to improve key SUCCESS not just failure.

[@ValryshaClips]

I think it'd be an interesting experiment although I believe that it's very likely the gameplay will turn into an almost TBC-Heroic style pre-CC, safe LoS pulls etc. Playing safe will triumph over daring and risky plays. This could be fun for a whole different set of reasons but I think the modern playerbase isn't really that interested in methodical, clinical, procedural gameplay like that. They want action, they want big pulls. I don't really think it would mean you're sitting around for lust for every pack for the vast, vast majority of the playerbase. Even without a timer, people don't want to sit around afk, it's so boring that people will be itching to just pull anyway. The only sphere where that would be a problem would be in literally rank 1 keys affecting a few dozen players at most. I'd kind of want them to try this out on a PTR or something? Could be funny.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, I wouldn't mind trying it tbh.

[@xSiLviCoOk]

i cant wait to do a 4 hour siege of boralus

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Really sticking with this bit huh

[@guilhermecosta3360]

I feel like people underestimate meta. If you change the rules to remove the timer it won’t break the meta, it will change it. People will rather take tankier classes than more fragile ones. Remember the meme 5 tanks M+ videos? That could be meta without a timer for higher keys

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Said all that in the video haha. So, agreed!

[@xtracted7747]

sounds like a terrible idea. I don't want to play as safe and slow as possible... mind aswell play hardcore classic

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Its obviously very different from hardcore classic, because its alongside PVE content that is actually dangerous. So you'd have deaths that were actually not entirely your fault, unlike all the fake BS clips you see of people pressing no spells for a minute straight then crying when they die.

[@her0268]

As you said, if this comes to fruition I think it will kill M+ in general. The timer is basically the essence of the game mode. Also, the waiting for cooldowns is going to happen for sure, and it will slow down the gameplay a lot, in turn making it way less fun. Dependent on the dungeon this type of gameplay can easily take anywhere from an hour to two which is completely insane. Another thing mentioned in the WoWHead post is the breaking the meta point, I have absolutely no idea why people are so obsessed over meta classes, if you aren’t doing world first keys that need every ounce of healing, damage, and utility it quite literally doesn’t apply to you. And if you are pushing for title it has been proven many times that you can get it on every spec in the video game. One last point I would like to touch up on is toxicity in keys, the simplest and easiest way to sort this out would be to simply not punish the key holder by depleting his key. I have talked to a few people about this, and it is by far the most stressful and rage-inducing thing that can happen, no one, absolutely no one is going to be happy if they have to redo a key on a lower level whether it’s because of legitimate personal reasons or someone else decided to leave and ruin the key.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

agreed!

[@Freddusya]

looking forward to 5 tanking a dungeon

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I would love it tbh

[@hysmw]

Another option then mythic plus

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I think it would come as a parallel system, via the SoloQ thing they brought up a while ago.

[@38dedo]

this change would make the class priority not be the DPS but the survivability. you would always want to pull 1 pack at a time and play it as safe as possible, meanwhile specs with little defensives and self heal will not be invited. doesnt sound fun to me. what makes m+ fun and not boring are the big pulls

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

I agree, not fun sounding.

[@errtuhots3789]

Pros - as a warlock, maybe we would see people actually use hearthstones I make 😂

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Haha

[@sumpwa]

If people thought tank and healer toxicity was bad now, imagine how bad it will be with a death counter!

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha well ironically that "toxicity" comes from the DPS, who would be the ones dying all the time and bricking keys now. They suddenly would have the focus on them and be the ones ridiculed.

[@r1pp3dx]

You can do both, let the players choose before the key starts

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh no, you absolutely cant do both within the same system.

[@Quiet_9]

I'm a big fan of dropping the timer for keys 6 and under. The people most stressed out about the timer just want to run some dungeons with their friend without any stress of failing, maybe grab the KSM mount. These are not the people farming guilded crests to max mythic track gear or getting portals or pushing IO. While it might incentivize weird metas like more durable classes or extra healers/tanks or heavy CC, who really cares what degenerate stuff some under geared people might do to survive a 6 or lower? Competitive players are done with 6s by their second or third week of the season. There's a group of people that love dungeons but hate timers and frankly heroic isn't cutting it for them.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya at the end of the day that's just not something that makes much sense to me. Those people won't want to stop at 6 obviously.

[@BriskWintun]

The timer is part of the fun, without it it wouldn't be as challenging for me. One massive issue i see is there will be groups of 2-3 healers or tanks in order to stay alive. It will change the game drastically.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

agreed

[@lampshades5436]

I first saw this post on wowhead and thought it would be interesting to actually see how it plays out and I was waiting for your response on it. And after hearing your take on it, you are def. right. It would encourage some crazy stupid gameplay

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya it really would be a mess. They would need lots of regulations for it to be doable at all. Doubt it's worth the effort.

[@GoddofStuff]

You can always reward players for the fastest time - I think it would keep it interesting...

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, that would likely just end up meaning there was a timer again in all but design haha.

[@joveonlightbringer9684]

If time is no longer an issue, DPS - DAMAGE PER SECOND - loses its value. DPS would not longer be relevant; all that would matter is tankiness.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

That would be a huge improvement in my eyes at least.

[@TheeSeeker]

If they remove the timer mythic plus is dead in my eyes. The only way they can implement this without sucking is limiting it to keys under 5-8. Anything past those key levels is stupid i rather have challenger peril take 30 seconds of the timer than a death limit in 12-15…

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya and I do not think splitting the system like that would work at all. Not good!

[@Rune__]

The only thing i can say for sure, is that I am not qualified to say if it’s a better way of doing it or not 😂 Because holy moly, i did not realize how many things you have to consider when going from a timer to a pure death count system.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, huge change here to be honest.

[@noidMVP]

Here is the solution: When you die in a key you will generate a copy of yourself (as a bot/followe nad keep helping the group). Meanwhile to the player whats happening is, that he has sent to the maw gaunlet and has to escape in X time. if he escapesthe maw he gets to his body. and nobody is penalized( replacing the bot for the player). If he fails he is dead and the death timer or death count is deducted. YOU ARE WELCOME!

[@Ennar]

I would love if I could replace people that want this change with bots in my keys. You can easily program a bot to not stand in fire, use interrupts and defensives, unlike people that can't time a +5 and think it's a timer problem.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

haha

[@bobbilling1075]

I would hate it if they removed the timer entirely. At this point I just want the aoe stop change reverted then I’m super chilling with state of m+.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Oh ya, well I feel like that aoe stop change was super needed for the game, so I'm happy with it!

[@0Lameran0]

i typed comment before watching the video, then after the video finished i realized you said everything i thought and went way beyond that my comment become obsolete. i agree everything you say and at the end, i end up in conclusion my "issue" with mythic+ is being multiplayer experience, this video reminded me why i experience these dungeons in lower difficulties and never play mythic+. i do not like depending on other people where the people in this situation behaves unwilling to put effort and demand most out of it.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya no doubt it's not for everyone!

[@VDHmain]

Even if they removed the timer, it would still be there in a way because speed would be the way to determine the ladder. It would make people in lower keys play way more safe but I'm not sure how it would affect higher keys since there's already a death limit in the form of having too many deaths killing the key. Maybe it would just really change how title players play but nobody else?

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Ya, pretty much said this in the video. You KNOW RaiderIO would have a speed score too, basically invalidating the whole purpose.

[@VDHmain]

@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah I commented before finishing the video XD. The score would definitely be determined by # of death first then timer, or the opposite. Either way the timer remains. Also, it's there in the for of "Please pull more I don't have all day."

[@kennethmalafy8012]

It should have both options- a death count or a timer. You could also do: if you use the timer and miss (key doesn't deplete) death count and miss (key will deplete). Why does everyone care so much that some group might wait for their cd's before every pull? If some crazy group wants to take seven hours to clear it, let them! I won't be in that group, sounds like their problem.

[@heythereguysitsMetro]

Well no it would become the norm right? Like people already sit there and obsess about meta when they suck anyway. It would be constant arguments about CDs and that sort of thing if you didn't pull around it. I mean there already IS stuff like that happening, even when there is a timer. people CONSTNATLY talk about planning CDs, despite the fact that doing so will likely lead to lower Overall DPS, thus hindering the timer.

[@kennethmalafy8012]

@@heythereguysitsMetro My point was "Who cares?" If somebody wants to form a group to spend ten hours clearing a dungeon, that's ten hours of their life they will never get back. I will not be in that group, so I don't care what they do in their dungeon. It's not my concern, it really stuns me that some people do care about groups they aren't even a part of, in dungeons they are not erven a part of........ why bother?