i hope it saves pugs daddy metro

Blizzard IMO has often placed their opinion higher in terms of priority than the players. I could get into a very long conversation on why, and give really good examples. But, no one like paragraph comments. Keys depleting is, toxic in its nature. It's completely unnecessary. Give players the power to do it themselves if they think it's too hard. Why create an issue that doesn't need to exist.

I think the issue is the same every season and I don’t see it changing with the new deplete system. There is a group of players who push their io score and key level at relatively the same rate. You need to stay near them to get them in your group. You need to be a meta spec once you get to a certain level or they won’t invite you. If you reroll an alt you will never catch them and you won’t get invites past a certain level because you are looking for progress and they don’t want you in their group. These players will also reroll alts and be the ones with 400io characters doing 10’s and not inviting you if you don’t have a 3300io main playing a meta spec alt. The fix I think is to add some reward for playing these lower keys. The 12-15 range this season would be the keys I’m talking about. Maybe socket stone fragments where you get 20 of them and can socket an item. I also wish they could just normalize the damage/healing of all specs percentage based within mythic plus so they don’t have to worry about raid or pvp tuning if that is the issue. Having enhancement shaman doing an avg of 2.4mil overall on Archon.gg while everyone else does 1.9 or lower seems like braindead tuning.

The stuff youre talking about in the first half of the video Alrdy happens 100% people say "he hasnt done a 13 yet in X so im not gunna invite him" Happens all the time so that will just be more of the same really. I do think people will rerun the same key after a failed one.. all be it they prolly remove the problem player in the group. i will deff be doing my key once i get the 12-14 achievement .. i feel like there will deff be a lot more keys listed b/c of that fail safe of it not going below X.. and its great for the higher key pushers too b/c no more homework keys too.

I'm curious if rerolling your key when you have a "floor", if it will go below that? Is it just depletes that has the floor? Lots of things we still don't know here. It's an interesting change, I think

I imagine that the inconsistent keystone protection will end up causing some issues here and there because people don't really communicate and then have differing expectations. Mostly though I just don't think this will make a huge impact one way or the other compared to other changes.

The reason i stop doing M+. I had a 16 stone vaults i brick then brick as a 15 then brick as a 14. Re rolled to a 14 mist and tank dc. After that my will to do keys died. So being able to not drop below a certain key lv will stop the despair that comes after bricking your key.

You could be right; I do recall you saying the new affixes are terrible while every content creator was praising them (myself included), and turns out YOU were right

Yup, got 500 gilded crests sitting in my wallet, and Im stuck waiting for the weekly vault for more 623 pieces

Is the "link achievement" thing not what people already do with score? Not sure what changes with the achievement.

i rly dont know, but i thinki its a cool change for people pushing rank 1 in pug, for the rest dont change to much maybe for a social aspect i can bring my low friends in a key dat cant be deplete under dat level, i like remeber the boosting problem with this system

Personally, I'm going to be more likely to invite people to a homework key if they havent timed it (ie, timed a 14 and applied to my 15). Maybe I'm being too optimistic but I think more players progressing the system will get invited to people keys next season because of this change.

I strongly believe a lot of these folks have never played a team sport but have been in professional and/or academic situations where they thrived on perfection or have been expected to be perfect. Whenever someone apologizes profusely for a mistake, I tell them that Tom Brady threw 3 interceptions in his last AFC Championship game.

While you're more focused on the impact this will have in the 12+ key range, and the possible positives and negatives, there is a huge negative this could have in the +10 and below key range. Most heroic raiding guilds have people that can get 2.8k rating in the first week or two but have lots of members who really should be in the 2-8 range for several weeks learning the dungeons, what happens when those 2.8k players break off into the other members and run +10 no leaver keys for several days? Even if the 2-8 level players could only succeed 15% of the time in a +10, they will have inflated their IO and ilvl in just a few days. This should actually be good fun/more relaxed fun for my guild because not timing wont deplete the 8 or 10 key, can just hang with the boys and do some dungeons/get some loot but who knows what happens when they queue for a 10 key in pugs that *cough* they maybe aren't ready for.

people will do same same key they already did for groups that say "forming push group/time and go next key" but I have hard time trusting those groups.. last time I joined a group that said "++ and go the next key" I performed my best and helped them ++ and at the end of the dungeon they just kicked me. they were asshole guild and its not everyone but still its such a risk to trust people I hate people

With the changes to enemies health and the current state of tank's damage (about 30% of what a DPS damage looks like), I hope to be able to focus on tanking and bigger pulls. Blizzard just needs to fix the aggro problems, then I'm certain that season 2 will be awesome. As a tank, I don't want to feel pressured into choosing offensive talents when the struggle is to survive. If I'm doing difficult content, I want to be able to talent "tankier", and if I'm farming or helping friends I want to be able to do a little more damage in exchange for survivability. And I share the same thoughts about healing, as in the best healer shouldn't be the one that does the most damage. It will be fun to be a tank on a season where keys don't deplete and the success of the run relies on the DPS doing their job. Less casts, less interrupts, not every pack has a tank buster, seems to me like Blizzard, combined with the previous tanks and healers nerfs, is moving towards every role being true to their identity.

Being able to do the same key over and over again to perfect it sounds really cool. I remember when i played arena and we would lose to rogue, mage, druid. I would always say to my friends that i wish we could fight that comp over and over again so we could perfect it. But you are right, I think there will be a lot of degenerate behaviour with this new system because there is degenerate behaviour going on in the current system we already have. It's not like the m plus community is going to see the light and learn to love one another just because keys don't deplete

I legit don't know if it will be a net positive or a net negative. The eternal optimist inside me is HOPEFUL it will be a net positive but I am... not fully convinced. The one thing that really stood out for me and it was something I was thinking about before you even mentioned it was the spreadsheet. I think what might be useful is two changes. The first being a new tiny column labelled "Tries" indicating how many attempts the group took on the key before it was ultimately over (one way or another. This would also lead to a whole new set of stats on the number of tries that each of the key endings gets and how that iterates based on the class and specs that are in it. So mor data more ways of looking at the results you are getting in keys. The next thing I would think that you should add to the spreadsheet would be a fourth outcome, "kicked". So that if you get kicked from the key while attempts are being made that too can be tracked because it really is it's own different ending and not really a disband, completion or upgrade. This would also need to iterate on to the stats page with a whole new set of stats for keys that you were kicked from where you could look and say okay when I ran with a shaman healer it tend to get kicked less than when I run with and evoker healer etc. I think stuff like that could be really valuable for other questions that will start popping up in the stream like "Oh how many keys HAVE you gotten kicked from this season anyway?" and "Oh I see an Augvoker in this key I bet you get kicked from it, that's pretty much the norm now, right?" I know those aren't common question right NOW, but once the lack of depleting keys becomes a thing, I think there's a strong possibility that it might. As for the lack of people doing keys that they don't need because they simply don't HAVE to after their own key un-deplete-able I don't know, we might see a greater number of people moving down to sevens to farm crests and 10s to farm vault credit who have already timed 12s and 13s but we also might see less. Either way I THINK that the people doing some niche of the system will reduce. That being said too, I THINK that it's a baby step in a larger change that Blizzard is making to the keystone system that gets players used to the idea of not depleting before they introduce a system where, as you have so often advocated for, you use a currency to protect your key from depleting or depletions are taken out of the game entirely or however they choose to go. I think that with such an ingrained system as keystones they have to take little babysteps from season to season because that way they minimize the "culture shock" of the changes they WANT to make, AND they make it easier to not break the keystone system entirely when they put a change live that too few people have stress tested because so few people use the PTR for what it's meant to be used for and those that do quit far too easily when it's not a cake walk. Either way, just my knee jerk reaction.

I do my own key with my guild mates but when I pug into other people's keys I'm playing tank or healer.

This gonna be a huge deal, i can image myself actually pushing instead of failing a key and try to push it back and wasting time in the process, as a tanks who does my own key i can feel relief when something goes wrong and know i could have a second chance to try again, i think that WoWOP + Raider Io score it's a perfect combination for filtering people that has really the knowledge or just avoid people that get boosted, I'm ready for s2

I’ve been a big fan of your content for years now. I don’t play much on the PTR (I’m one of the few people still regularly running live keys) but I know that you’ve discussed that some dungeons feel substantially tougher than others. It will be interesting to see how relevant the keystone protection system will be for most people if the 8 dungeons are not tuned equally. If we have a season like we did in the past with junkyard where it is multiple keystone levels easier than the other keys then I worry that the whole protection system won’t mean much. One big benefit I see from this change is that it will hopefully encourage people to finish all 8 dungeons at a single key level rather than having their progression split among a multitude of different key levels and jumping into higher keys that they may not be ready for yet. Thanks again for all the great content!

No

I see your point. I can imagine a Tank spec, running their own key, with depletion insurance, is going to be very picky and prone to kicking underperformers and then quickly reforming a new group to try the key again.

It will be interesting to see how things turn out for Mythic+ in Season 2 with all these changes Blizzard has made. I wonder if player behavior will change in Season 2, for better or for worse.

Currently not playing because game is shit. But always glad to see them make changes. Maybe m+ is gonna be good again next expac. I love playing keys all day long, even if I don't get score from it. "Oh, let's equip another char? Sure!" The less I get punished for it, the better. But no one and their three mothers could ever force me to do my own key. As a dps I only get other dps to sign up, as a tank I don't need to because I can just latch onto someone elses ship.

I’m hard stuck at all 10’s complete and it’s all on me. There isn’t any score goals to reach for that interests me. And repair costs have gotten too much for me. I could do content in the game I’m not interested in to farm more gold, but I have no interest in that. I’ll just enjoy checking out other games out there until the next season. I am hyped for the next season though.

the main thing that nobody is going pushing, is the fact that we (m+) only players are 100% reliant on vaults, now that the crafted item cost was lowered to 60, why not add an item for 90 crests that would increase the tier of 1 item from hero 6/6 to myth 1/6, that would have minimal impact in the beginning of the season but would highly impact alts or at least help with shitty vaults. What do you think?

This is absolutely bloody hilarious, wonderful! HAHAHA!!

why would someone who doesn't feel like being competitive or play well need a myth track gear from doing m+ ? this is the thing, what drives people into m+ is gear and rewards but up to a certain point is no longer that. what we see today is players playing like at +2 but at +10s , why ? because there is no incentive for you to be good, you still get 'your gear' even if that key is depleted. as you said, even trying 10 times, if i dont feel like learning , i just wont simply learn mechanics, why would i when i have 4 other people that can carry me for my gear. Gear is something you get and upgrade to take you into the next step of the challenge, not to do world quests lol ( blizz shows mercy after all, imagine it has to be timed keys for filling vault? ) but well , im curious to try and feel this changes myself. im a bit upset about the keystone legend change cause it was hard for me to pug 12s, got 4 now but i should be honestly doing 13s /14s by now. but with no network or friends interested... yikes. we will see how our pug live goes this time around, i have hope ! 😆

Just to explain the guile change since you asked. Easiest way to think of it is just Guile == Peril in season 2. All additional scaling from that affix is just gone now. Would’ve been less confusing to just keep the challengers peril name and remove guile instead of swapping the affix and remove the name peril.

The tank is the bus driver. If you drive fast, slam your breaks, and hit the rough spots on route, dont be offended when people complain about the experience. Also though if you have great pacing, avoid all the trouble, and get them safely to the end they will just click the chest and insta drop without a comment. Just know you did well, little bus driver.

I don't think people are going to really learn dungeon mechanics by starting at lower key levels UNLESS certain mechanics remain as dangerous at lower keys as they are at higher keys. Like literally just make it impossible to finish the key unless you deal with these important and avoidable mechanics. If they are dealt with then it's not even a DPS or a heel check for a lot of these things. Then you can make it so that just finishing the key is an actual indicator that you didn't ignore mechanics that will 100% get you or your group killed. Just timing a key doesn't seem like a good indicator of actual success or that you learned the dungeon. You can get all the way up to a seven and not even know that certain that certain important mechanics exist. Learn the mechanics first and then worry about topping the DPS meters later when mechanics are mastered and the real challenge is the timer.

I feel like the best thing about the last couple of weeks is the communication. The way they actually address things in written form. A lot better for feedback

In regards to players jumping into 7s after gearing up in delves, WoW has been designed from the beginning where a player's content and difficulty progression is part-and-parcel with their reward progression. The fact that completing Tier 8 delves would lead to participation in M+ 7s is a design flaw, not a player-base flaw. I disagree that the onus is on players to drop down key levels below meaningful reward progression and then "get good". The current gearing system unambiguously communicates to the player that Tier 8 delves >>> M+ 7s is the correct path. As a fellow experienced M+ player I understand that getting good in M+ requires practice by starting at easier keys then working up slowly into higher key levels. However, I would argue that the game used to have a reward structure that better incentivized this progression path. This path is now disrupted by gearing in Delves. If max delve gear continues to be better than gear from lower M+ keys, this problem will persist. I understand that a similar problem exists between gearing in Raids vs gearing in M+, but the difference between these two game modes and Delves is striking: delves are as easy/easier than normal raiding yet reward gear equivalent to heroic raiding. This blue post implies that a lot of players are using Delves to gear up before they do M+. It was easy to predict that this would happen. However, Delves were originally advertised as the "third pillar" of PvE content, where Delvers/"open world" players were separate from M+ players. Blizzard seems to be course-correcting after an incorrect prediction, that open world players would gear up in Delves and M+ players/raiders would gear up in M+/raid (i.e., causal vs competitive PvE players). These changes strike me as Blizzard changing Delve rewards to a track closer to the old M0-10 gear track, before the squish. In TWW season 2, M0 and lower keys will be harder, with scaling across keys levels that is less punishing. Hero-track M+ vault rewards will start at +2 rather than +3. Runed crests will start dropping from +2 rather than +4. Blizzard is restructuring rewards so Delve gearing leads into M+ gearing, rather than replacing it. (With exceptions, of course: for example, players will be able to get some gilded crests in delves next season.)

An arguement I see a lot in regards to rewards is that for heroic gear. Mythic+ (in this case 7) actually requires some player effort While you can easily get through HC without doing anything. I'm personally still under the impression that there should be a way to get myth gear from m+ But I guess that would remove the need for mythic raid completely

Why tf are you wearing a mask and shield by yourself

Haven’t played mythic plus since df season 1. What do yall think the rough equivalent from df 13 to twwe season 1?

Pah-Pow?

Your the only mythic plus content creator that isn't agreeing with the community just for views. All the rest of them are. Nerfing dungeon mechanics for the players who can't progress and who aren't having fun is ridiculous. If these players aren't having fun, then they really have to ask themselves is mythic plus the game mode for them. To be honest, I don't understand why anybody would force themselves to do something that they aren't enjoying

I'm hopeful that the "No key depletions below the highest level you've completed every dungeon" becomes universal and this is just essentially a "test" of the system. If it works out I could easily see a world where this happens for all key levels.

I did the math on stream. This was factoring in the 25% increase to mob hp and damage at M0. Current 10 is at ~236% (136%) increase. New 10 is at ~184% (84% increase) On live A mob has 100 hp at M0. At a 10 they have 236 hp. On Ptr a mob has 125 hp at M0. At a 10 they have 230 hp. Slighlty easier than live but realisticslly its about the same.

I had 2850 when I had 5x 12s and a 3x 10s (yes, my dungeons were all over the place). Not understanding the increased rating requirement if there's barely a differerence at M+12 and up.

If only someone would have told them that the revamped M+ system was probably going to broke progression... Oh, wait, I did! and other someone got mad at me because I was 'always wrong'. Well, it broke progression, and the result have been the worst M+ season in M+ history. Glad to see devs have seen reason, the steps go in the right direction, and I hope they work, also sad to have been right because, as I said, S1 has been miserable for too many people. Keep having fun!

I assume that Blizzard wants to increase the difficulty in the lower key levels (and increase rewards) compared to season 1 while not affecting 10s. This makes sense since participation in this key range is low. That is the goal and motivation for this change.

Also from +12 onward all keys will feel 9% easier than what they are in this season

There will always be a best/meta comp for high keys. This will always trickle down through the community to below where its actually needed. I think the only thing blizzard could do to reduce the impact of this is some sort of solo queue system which caps out at 10s or something. Means non meta specs could get into dungeons, and as people play with non meta specs people might realise that the meta isnt essential for lower keys.

With a simple math , a +10 in next season will feel around 3 % easier than a +10 season 1

Everyone is calling for no key depletion and I used to agree but thinking about it, wouldn’t this mean not having any lower keys at all in group finder? I feel like that would be bad for the system

You've hit the nail in the head Metro. Being a healer main there are so many players that don't know how to play the game in m+. I love my role as the healer and I'm able to 'save' the key by healing up the mistakes. Some days though it's tiring to see the same o' player type jump into m+ and not know what the heck is going on, hence you receive my m+ fail videos for your review and some form part of your channel content. ☺

You're gonna (rightfully) blast me for not recording my runs but I actually played M+ progression on my alt shaman as intended, starting around 480 ilvl after leveling and doing a couple world quests. My main reason for not gearing through delves is f*** delves I hate the content and I will not do it even if it's easy gear. I play the game for M+. I wanted to learn healing in M+ so I did so starting at M2, and the inconsistency from group to group was insane. If you had players that knew what's going on, 2-4 is peanuts. Easily healable even severely undergeared. I got into a SoB 4 which turned into a 6 because the key holder had mis-listed, and we decided to run the 6 with me at 485 or so ilvl - this felt challenging but doable - I was resource starved but nobody died because they played as the dungeon mechanics were intended. And then I ran a CoT 2 and it was actually unhealable because the group was just 4 complete muppets that could not do 1st boss even on a 2. The inconsistency is wild. It's all player based - and some people then are just not willing or able to take constructive criticism and try to improve. What the delve system does is make people make bad decisions for the wrong motives: I want gear, so I'm gonna go into 7s directly. And then the question becomes: What is the player base of low keys? Is it people ethically trying to learn a new role or spec, or is it people that... have no sense of the game to the point where they don't even know their most efficient progression lies in delves? I don't know what the optimal system is. It's this weird thing of managing different peoples' psychology with the game design