myenergi libbi vs GivEnergy home storage batteries - how do they compare?

[@keithdicken9486]

We recently had the same decision to make. We had a ZAPPI and Libby installed last year and it gave us more data than we’d ever had as our panels are 13 years old. Our panel are also East/West facing. Using the data we now have, we realised that a battery system would be advantageous. We also knew that, at peak use, in the winter, we would be using between 10 and 15 Kw but most of the time less than 10Kw. We aren’t at home much in the Winter so decided to take a short time hit and go for a 10Kw battery. We priced up the myEnergi system and Growatt. MyEnergi was £2000 more and VAT was to be added (not sure why). The Growatt system was not to add VAT making a considerable difference. Our criteria are two fold. 1. To use all of our own electricity I.e. don’t export to the grid. 2. To avoid using expensive electricity. We are on an Octopus Go tariff. With this in mind we have reduced/increased the on-grid charging capacity to as low as 65% to enable sufficient space for maximum charging during the good weather and longer days. The % will be increased in the Autumn and Winter. We have the capacity to add a further battery at £1400 should we decide to stay at home in the winter. We have a hybrid car so it doesn’t take long to charge and the 4 hours cheap rate electricity is sufficient to top up the batteries. This may change when we use more electricity and the batteries need more topping up. Incidentally, we got caught out trying to charge the car from the batteries during the day. The ZAPPI needs more current than the batteries can provide so it draws from the grid. So if your max output is high, it would probably pay for itself to invest in a higher output system.

[@CuriousDroid]

The price of the Libbi is lot more that the KSTAR. I had a quote from a myenergi installer for a 20kWh version who told me the trade price as well his markup, the trade price was £11,293 + vat, He would be selling it at £12,500+ vat including installation giving an end user price of £15,000 and that's a low figure because they are new in the battery install business. I was very interested in the Libbi as I'm still awaiting for a Solis 5kW Hybrid inverter + 19.2kWh Pylontech system to be fitted after several months of the old install company faffing around because they're too busy but this is going to be about £5000 more for a very similar setup in capabilities, although the Solis is a DC coupled system and I believe the Libbi is AC coupled. The Solis also has 5kW for both battery charging and discharge compared the the Libbi's 4.6kW/5kW so you could technically get a full charge in the 4 hour Octopus Go time window which is important to me too. If you compare the price of 2 x Telsa Powerwall giving a total of 27.6kWh that is £20,400 or £739 per kWh, the Libbi at £15,000 for 20kWh is comes in at £750 per kWh making it a pretty expensive system. The Solis/Pylontech was £10,000 for 19.2kWh giving a price of £520 per kWh.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yikes, yes, that is quite pricey! I'm awaiting quotes from my installer for the 10 and 15 kWh versions but I expect it'll be a similar story to what you were told. I expect that will be a deal breaker for me, but I'd be pretty happy with the GivEnergy system in any case. There are always compromises it seems. The libbi is DC coupled, as it has a hybrid inverter.

[@CuriousDroid]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Ahh, I was told it was and AC coupled, I did wonder how it connected to the Solar if that was the case. Looks like i'll be back to kicking my old installer to get the job done... again

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@CuriousDroid haha! I wish you the best of luck

[@wombat3024]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I'm puzzled by this, as I contacted MyEnergy to ask why I was having trouble finding an installer, and they told it it wasn't actually available yet, and when it was, I'd have to get it direct from a wholesaler. It appears to be "vapourware". It also doesn't appear to operate fully in "island mode", but will only supply one separate socket or circuit. This is no use to me.

[@waqasahmed939]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk When I phoned them they were quoting around £5K for a 5kw battery It's a shame because the whole idea of using the Libbi is that you'd be able to charge an EV without going to the grid. Interestingly enough, my Growatt system doss operate that way ie : it goes to the battery first

[@scallywagII]

Just a point for all solar users with or without battery: If you swap your 3kW kettle for a 2kW, that will help you to maximise self consumption. Slightly longer to come to boil but that is even more incentive to just heat enough for what you need, so a win win.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, indeed, this is exactly what we're planning on doing when our current kettle dies!

[@geoffnewman3109]

Insulated kettles are great

[@photoman152]

Quieter too. ✅

[@offgridsolaruk843]

Yes because it doesn't pull the voltage of the battery down so quick, especially important if off grid

[@jamesw7786]

Better still for the kettle, get a hob top kettle on an induction hob. You then have about 9 power levels so can ramp it up or down depending on how much solar is being generated (or spare capacity to be drawn from the battery). If you don’t already have an induction hob, you can buy a single ring induction hob for around £30 from IKEA.

[@shirleydanby4123]

I'm so grateful for this video. We're renovating our home next year. And we're trying so hard to make the right choices with the tech were wanting installed. We are so excited about myenergi Libbi battery, but all the engineering spiel just makes my head spin. And those spread sheets! 🤣 We're definitely considering the larger inverter, were debating how much battery capacity we will need. We're thinking 10kWh to start and we can add to it later. Keep the good work up, so glad I found your channel.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Thank you, I'm glad I could help. I reckon 10 kWh is a good place to start too. As you say, it's easy enough to add to it later if you find you need it. Good luck with the renovations!

[@moony2703]

Thanks for the comparison and breakdown! Also great addition to Fully Charged video really appreciate you adding to thing in more detail and going over potential benefits over another brand, on top of the whole sync aspect of all myenergy products working together. Although fingers crossed the batteries, inverters etc. business starts paying attention to the coding standard being made for Smart Home devices at some point to help with the whole cross brand communication issue. Although I do like how myenergy has been able to get around this with some things by just monitoring energy levels rather than direct communication which means they can work with more things but direct communication across brands would certainly be better! Also really like that you discovered that they are building off of a pre-existing device because ideally that means the chance of teething problems, coding aside, will hopefully have already been mostly figured out, along with scaling up of the initial product, even if they might have to ramp up again for a potentially faster expanding customer base now my energy might be bringing in more customers for them, hopefully they are on top of demand enough not to have as big as a supply chain issue as car makers do. Granted given how fast things energy related are selling out in your part of the world plus a new product and engineer training maybe roll out will have trouble meeting demand at first? I’m not even sure what the battery etc. market is doing over there but I know heat pumps, I think it was, are selling out.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I've already had a huge delay due to equipment shortages and the installer being really busy. It's very frustrating. I agree that a communication standard between equipment would be fantastic but I very much doubt we'll get anything like that any time soon! I expect the libbi is going to be too pricey for me at the end of the day, but it's still an interesting product.

[@micksoden7064]

Hi Tim, I have givenergy battery with eddi and harvi 8.2kw battery LG panels(4.25).it's superb.you can talk all day about doing something. I often use a max of .5kwh in a day.just do it!Great channel.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Thank you. Yes, I would very much like to get things underway. At the moment I'm just waiting on my installer to get started. Hopefully soon!

[@johnh9449]

Hi Tim, Just be careful about the maximum charge rate. The maximum from AC may well be lower than from DC because DC to DC conversion is easier than AC to DC to DC. This subtlety might not be in the data sheet but it may be in the user manual. Also fully charging your battery overnight could mean it gets to 100% during the day stopping you storing further free sunshine. It might actually be advantageous to limit the charge rate overnight to ensue there is always space to store free solar.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, I'm expecting real world rates to be a bit less, but comparing relative value is still useful. As for leaving a bit of capacity overnight for charging by solar during the day, that's a good plan and is something I'll attempt to do based on the forecast for the following day.

[@johnmheaton]

Thank you for digging!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

My pleasure.

[@rob-stewart]

Not sure if my last comment has been lost because of a link... Givenergy have released (at the same time as Libbi) their new All in One solution that looks very similar to the Powerwall. No costs or big data sheet I'm aware of just some basic stats... - AC coupled - 7kw peak, 5kw continuous - plug and play installation - off grid operation - full home back up with giv-gateway - smart charge with time of use tariffs - 13.5kwh usable capacity - connect up to 6 systems giving 80kwh - junction box - ip65 for multiple sitting options Also... The myenergi Libbi website has been updated with a vague price... From £4595+vat (assume the base 5kwh system with inverter)

[@OCDcaeju]

I agree, the GivEnergy 13.5 all in one looks like it trumps the libbi. From what I understand the modules internal to the 13.5 all in one are still separate and the inverter figures are indicative of what the Gen2 inverters will provide in the very near future (through a SW update on the gen2 boards !!) The gateway looks really interesting - I am hoping I can retrofit it to my current AC inverter 9.5 battery setup

[@dharmensoneji3360]

Any idea of the cost and availability of the new givenergy all in one?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ooh, that's super interesting, I'll look into that, thanks!

[@andrewjackson7785]

We are getting two Giv energy 9.5kwh batteries fitted soon, and to combat the charging window we are also fitting two inverters. Thanks for the video.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I'd heard there were potential issues with a two inverter setup. I'd be interested to hear how you get on with that.

[@AndrewSmithThomas]

Wow this popped up in my feed and I assumed the algorithm was recommending it because I've been looking at the Libbi. Didn't expect a video from my old university friends. :) Now I'll have to go back through your whole KZbin back catalogue.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Haha lol! Good to hear from you. I hope you find our videos both entertaining and informative 😉. I'm currently waiting on some quotes for different sized libbi systems from my installer but I suspect it'll be at the pricier end of the market. We shall see.

[@AndrewSmithThomas]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Then I'd love to see your quotes and know who your installer is. I've got quotes for PV and battery installation, and was just going to go ahead, before I realised not all systems are equal. I assumed I'd have to wait months for folks to train up on Libbi, so if you have an installer who's ready to go that would be extremely useful.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@AndrewSmithThomas They're a small local company so I doubt it'd be much help to you, but I'll certainly let everyone know what the quotes turn out to be, assuming they can get them. As you say, they might not be able to install them any time soon anyway, I just asked them if they could get quotes and I'm waiting for them to get back to me. They might come back and say they can't do it! They did say they had a contact at myenergi, so I'm hoping that means they'd be able to train up on installing libbis pretty soon. Whatever happens I'll post an update video once I know more.

[@blobstrom]

Bit late to the party after just finding your channel. But I went the DIY route and went for a Victron system, right now i'm on 12kWh lead acid AGM batteries but hope to switch to 15kWh LFP soon via a company called Fogstar. My system charge rate it 70A, but i am on intellegent Octopus giving me 6 hours of off peak charging. But also having solar since 2015 and these summer months it doesn't matter if your battery is oversized as the solar will keep topping up the battery, meaning until winter you won't need to charge the batteries at all at night.

[@onecgc]

Hello! I'm unfamiliar with the "Intelligence Octopus" What are the price points for this tariff and do you know if it's still available? Thank you.

[@blobstrom]

@onecgc I'm pretty sure it's still current. The idea is that Octopus can control either your car or charge point. The big difference compared to Octopus Go is 'Intellegent' is from 23:30 to 05:30. 'Go' is from 00:30 to 04:30. Intellegent however can be activated anytime and of course includes cheap rate for everything in your home. The rate I pay currently is 7.5p off peak and about 37p peak

[@all4outdoor738]

I’m looking forward to your next Libbi video now people are getting them installed.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Well, I don't have much more to say, I'm afraid, I have no experience with them. They look like a nice piece of kit, although a bit pricey.

[@all4outdoor738]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Just an FYI they don’t currently have functionality to export back to the grid, you can’t set a threshold price for charging on agile…it only has a tickbox enabling agile charge - which is weird. You can only floor mount them as well. Overall I’m a bit miffed at the current lack of functionality compared to the Giv system, but as I already have a zappi, solaredge optimisers and hybrid inverter with 5.7kw solar array, I wanted to integrate the 20kwh battery system with the zappi. We’re hoping - looking at the public libbi forum that they get their act together. Hmmm

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@all4outdoor738 that's very interesting, thanks for letting me know.

[@offgridsolaruk843]

Good stuff Tim, this is why the Tesla modules are superior with 225amp discharge at 5.3kw 230ah which is why we are upcycling them and selling much cheaper than you would pay for an actual powerwall from Tesla and but you still get there Quality control and resistance tested cells.

[@richardmarkham8369]

Ha! we watched the same videos! Thanks for finding out where the Myenergi battery really comes from. Very interested to see how you get on with getting quotes.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No problem. I'll certainly let folks know how I get on.

[@zag164]

Great video, thanks. I just saw the libbi on FCS yesterday and this video has answered all of my questions.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Fantastic, glad I could help!

[@johnclarke6542]

We have a victron multipleplus 2 gx , victron mppt 450/100. with byd premium lvs 8kw usable a stackable battery storage not used anything from the grid so far. Byd and catl I believe the biggest battery manufacturers in the world, byd made all those Nokia and Ericson battery years ago

[@dameonhill]

Useful video, thanks Tim. I’m looking forward to seeing what you make of your new air-to-air heat pump system!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, indeed, I'm looking forward to making that video. Btw, I've been enjoying your videos too. Based on your heart pump cylinder ones I've decided to get one of those too!

[@johnwatt1911]

Another great video, thanks for posting. I am particularly interested in home back up functionality. From what I've seen, the Myenergi Libbi seems to have output to a single circuit/socket whereas the Givenergi can be configured to supply essential circuits on a dedicated consumer unit. Maybe I'm totally wrong here but it would be good to see exactly how the Libbi would handle essential circuits and TT earthing.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I would like to find out more about this too. I imagine you could feed the backup output of the libbi into a separate consumer unit in the same way as the GivEnergy one but I guess an installer would be able to answer more reliably.

[@tarkadahl1985]

with GE you can also put in a manual changeover switch and have the entire house manually switch over to the EPS just have to stay under the max discharge rate, with hybrid will charge from solar during a powercut as well. Can do auto changeover for whole house but if you go over 3.6kW the inverter gets pretty unhappy.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@tarkadahl1985 yeah, my installer mentioned this. It's something I was thinking of having set up and then just being careful what we use in the event of a power cut.

[@tarkadahl1985]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk ive gone down the separate CU with important circuits on it route. Only downside worth mentioning for that is that if the inverter dies then you lose those circuits, but you can add a changeover switch so those circuits can draw from the grid should it ever fail. Worth doing for an extra £50. Also, there is a changeover time of up to 5 seconds when there is a powercut, GE can login and enable "UPS" mode and there is no delay at all. Or go whole house and annoy the neighbours.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@tarkadahl1985 haha! Yes, I don't know which is better, tbh, but having the option to have the whole house backed up is appealing, even if you have to be a bit more careful.

[@quentinsf]

Thanks, Tim, useful comparison. I'm about to install around 8kWp of solar and unfortunately the Libbi's inverter isn't quite big enough for that. My supplier's suggesting a SunSynk system. I hadn't come across them in the UK before, but they look very capable especially if, like me, you're keen to have a lot of flexibility during power cuts but can't get hold of a Powerwall! (SunSynk are popular in South Africa where off-grid use is more common. ) Their 8kW hybrid inverter looks as if it might actually be able to source 8kW from the battery, which might enable me to do coffee and toast at the same time as warming up the immersion heater :-)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ah, interesting, I'd not heard of SunSynk. I'll take a look, thanks for mentioning them. I hope your install goes well!

[@offgridsolaruk843]

Will take a look at those, have you come across Sigineer?

[@TypeRhino]

Try and look at the seconded generation inverters being launched by give energy next year. That will throw a spanner in the works

[@3in1Machining]

Hi my friend, I have Givenergy 2.2kw charging batteries 2x5.2kw and 1x4kw array for domestic day use . I have a large house and are perfectly adequate to take me through spring summer and autumn. You will discover you have in adequate charge during winter months. Nearly all the available power goes to the battery with not surplus for day use. Personally I recommend multiple batteries rather than one large one. As winter approaches you switch one of the batteries off to make it more efficient usage. Hope that makes sense. PS I've had the installation 8 years now.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Take a look at my more recent videos to see how things have progressed since this one. I do now have two batteries but I'll be needing all my battery capacity to help with powering my heating over the winter (charged up overnight using a time of day tariff with super cheap off-peak rates), so I won't be turning off any of them off.

[@3in1Machining]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I just use electric heaters rather than heating the entire house. My central heating boiler is 33kw. So your going to need a very very big array.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@3in1Machining I'm not expecting the solar to power my heating in the winter, I'm intending to use the batteries charged up overnight, as I said before. Take a look at my tour videos (for both my heating system and solar/batteries) if you're interested in my setup: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2LQep-gjtl5mtU and: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnrKo4Fvqq-Zfrs

[@Dreador.]

Same boat and I had same concern with GE output and charge rate other option I’m looking at is 3 x 5.8 kWh Solax setup

[@iainhusband445]

Thanks for this, looking to completely de-gas our 4 bed house, still not 100% sure how to do it and charge at least one EV without costing an arm and a leg and a wee bit more.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, this is our plan too. I'm aiming to make a video about all the steps in our plan at some point soon, hopefully. But there's no getting away from the fact that the up-front costs are going to be somewhat high! If I've done my sums right it should pay for itself eventually but it might take 15 yrs+ for the whole lot. Although a lot of that depends on where energy prices go in the future, of course. Best of luck with your house too.

[@davidsteele3037]

I have a similar setup with an east/west orientation. My installer is investigating the Libbi. My G99 application will take some time to process which give Myenergi time to roll out the product.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, my installer is taking a look too and getting me some quotes (for 10 kWh and 15 kWh variants). I'll be very interested to see how they compare price wise to the GivEnergy system.

[@LookatBowen]

Tim, take a look at FOX ESS, especially the Cube Energy solutions (ECS 2900 / ECS 4100).

[@rugbygirlsdadg]

This is the very same comparison I'm currently doing. The discharge rate for me is very important. I've just measured my usage from my oven in "boost" mode and it's 4kW. Using the oven and microwave simultaneously with a full battery will mean drawing energy from the grid. That's not what I want. 3.5kW won't even power my oven.... I should add that I already have a Zappi and my installation will be 28 panels, 14/14 east/west, two 5kW Solis string inverters, and Eddi.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, we've been doing similar tests with the oven plus other devices such as an air fryer, which we often use together. We'll be demonstrating that in a video shortly, I hope.

[@peak6765]

Useful video to an extent. I do appreciate your work and this concept of comparison, especially when there's unnecessary hype with the Libbi rebadged product When the data is available think that you should do full price comparison quote from the same installer, at the moment with so little info from myenergi it's almost pointless. Also you mentioned that you can't charge much more than 10kWhs in the Go off peak period with the Gen2 GE Hybrid 5kW inverter. This is false, you can get in 14.4kWhs, over 40% more than your assertion. That could be as much as 18kWhs if you are already on a Go Faster 5hr tariff. Octopus Intelligent is another option. Additionally, in the winter months when you really need to charge I'd recommend keeping a few kWhs as reserve for power cuts and preserving the long term performance of the batteries in cold weather

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I do plan on doing a full price comparison once I get the quotes from my installer, worry not. Technically you're right about the 14.4 kWh for charging up the GivEnergy battery, but my original aim was closer to 20 (see previous videos) so that'd still not be possible in 4 hrs. I've looked at Intelligent and that's not yet available for my charger or EV but I'm keeping an eye on it as I expect they may extend it to more charger types and EVs in due course. The 5 hr Go Faster tariff is a bit more per unit so there'd be a compromise there too. In either case it's not a huge deal, I was just making the point that those are the sort of things worth considering when choosing a system.

[@lintonstores2241]

Also need to compare to the equivalent GivEnergy powerwall. 13.5kwh storage 5kw output peak 7kw Available early 2023 Price isnt public yet, but around 6k is being mentioned.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, not enough details available yet to be able to compare properly. But I will do in due course.

[@genetyk]

One of the best (for Me ) arguments for GivE is the octopus agile integration and if you are just a bit geeky the support for IFTTT.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, that's something I'm interested in looking into at some point. We're going for the GivEnergy system after all and it should be getting installed within a few weeks!

[@genetyk]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk please give "Speak to the Geek" videos on the givEnergy automation. You may find them very interesting

[@klanbo78]

Also, not sure if you're aware but 3.6kw charge / discharge is for the GE Gen2 inverter, Gen1 is 2.6. Gen2 has been held back until January. Even more reason to wait for the newer systems....

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, the spec sheet was for gen 2, I keep forgetting to mention that. I am aware that gen 1 is 2.6 but thanks for the reminder. I'll try to mention that if I ever talk about the GivEnergy inverters again in a future video!

[@dama054]

The only thing I don't like about the givenergy and kstar systems is they have a ramp up and ramp down they don't instantly supply the full load

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I've heard about this and it is a concern. I'm hoping that they can improve it with firmware updates eventually as other batteries seem to able to respond more quickly. But perhaps it's a hardware limitation, I don't know. In the grand scheme of things it shouldn't have a huge impact on total grid use/export but I agree it should be better.

[@remaincalm2]

It's IP65 rated so people with little space indoors can have it fitted on an external wall. The Libbi offers an off-grid capability but is limited to just 1 circuit or power socket. Have you considered Sunsynk? They may not have a tower system, but 3 batteries cabled together will give you 15kWh and they look pretty smart. The inverter has a LCD screen and menu system that gives real-time data.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

You're the second person today to suggest SunSynk as it happens. I'd not heard of them before but they look interesting.

[@markglanville6495]

The new Inteligent Octopus tariff which I think is replacing the Octopus Go Tarriff, gives an extra hour at the night time rate. 23.30pm to 5.30am!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, I heard about that. Currently only available if you have one of a limited number of EVs or chargers, unfortunately, but hopefully more will be added in due course.

[@trevorheley1045]

Libby is interesting but need to see quoted install prices from some distributors and also lead times. Like though the integration with the other myenergi products

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, I've asked my installer for quotes on the 10 kWh and 15 kWh libbi systems to compare to the GivEnergy 9.5 kWh + 5 kW hybrid inverter combo. Once I have those quotes I'll make another video to let everyone know what they are.

[@william1UK]

Thank you for making the video with great information 🤝

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No problem, my pleasure.

[@johnwilkins2023]

Good Watch. You are at a similar stage to me in that i have selected the GivEnergy 5kw / 9.5kwh config to pair with 6kw or PV. My installer had to wait for my grid feed to be unlooped from next door by DNO before we got approval and then thanks to supply issues everything stalled. Just as we are starting to get signals that kit is becoming available there are two things making me nervous. One is the GivEnergy forum which has some unhappy customers experiencing battery state of charge issues which is taking along time for GE to address. Second is the announcement of the Libbi which would operate alongside my Zappi more smoothly. So it comes down to PRICE I think. the Libbi will be a premium but how much! Lets see.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, indeed, it's a nightmare! Just as I think I've got the system nailed down this libbi comes along to throw it all into chaos again. I've literally just contacted my installer to see what they say about it so hopefully they'll be able to get me a more reliable quote and that might help settle it one way or another. I'd be happy to wait a little longer for the libbi if it turns out to be the better option and not too much more expensive, but I fear it might come out quite a bit more. We shall see! Good luck with your system.

[@wajopek2679]

These "all in one boxes" do have their appeal for an un cluttered look especially on the outside of a building. I have been hoping the Tesla Powerwall+ would appear in UK (x4 MPPTs) as I have three un-shaded roof aspects to consider for a solar roof replacement in 2023. I will be looking at these new products with interest.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, indeed, they do look neat. I'll be getting my batteries installed in the garage so not a huge deal but it'd still be nice if they looked all neat and tidy for when I force guests to admire it all!

[@Ben-gm9lo]

They are the cats pyjamas for sure. However, there is currently a year or so wait for Powerwalls. Tesla have upped their output and availability is improving in the US, so hopefully that will trickle down to us in time.

[@remaincalm2]

6 month delivery lag for Tesla Powerwall according to UK customers discussing it in a Facebook group. Plan well ahead if your heart is set on Tesla.

[@lintonstores2241]

4 trackers. Now that interests me as I have 4 strings at present

[@falfield]

Have you managed to find a 4MPPT channel inverter available in Britain? It seems a really big hole in the market, and is, I think, perpetuated by ignorance on the part of installers as well as customers on the dramatic effects of partial shading. Delta (Taiwanese Co) make an 8kW 4MPPT inverter (H8E) that looks to be the canine's testicles, but it's only sold in Australia.

[@G-Cam1]

As well as the Technical aspect you probably need to the Practicality of the Tesla Powerwall. Ie you can access a very competitive tariff with a Powerwall.. no other battery can unlock this option. For us it was a better option than Octopus Go (new rates). This was especially true as we removed our very old Oil fired heating system and replaced it with an ASHP. Im going to max out our PV so we gain more from the good (parity) export rates. We still load shift EV charging, white goods use etc.. to the '12 hour off-peak) slot, however we now dont fret when the ASHP comes on during the day..

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, I discounted the Powerwall for various reasons but it is a neat system, for sure. Definitely the most "hands off" system out there right now, and great for a lot of folks.

[@oldgitflying]

Great, very informative, thank you for taking the time to present your findings. All this is new to us in the last six months so we're very much in the learning phase ourselves, we currently have no battery, but do have a Zappi, an Eddi, 3.6Kw solar and our MG4 EV arrived very recently. I'm not too close to a battery purchase yet but initially was thinking Victron hybrid inverter and Pylontech 5Kwh batteries as the modularity and simple swap out for our existing inverter appealed. However. we have learnt that with everything in life the devil is in the detail! When I start displaying stronger buying signals I think I will start by now looking at the Libbi, very simply from the point of intercommunication. For example, as the sun gets going, our Eddi kicks in and starts consuming solar to heat the water but I do wonder if putting say 300w into a 3Kw immersion heater is likely to generate any significant heat and so if I had a battery I'd want the start and end of day lower value of surplus to go to the battery as we could say that's close to 100% efficient and only start heating water once we are generating a surplus of more than 1.5Kw as an example. Similarly, the Zappi will not charge the EV (in Eco mode) until there is more than 1.4Kw of excess solar available (if your looking to only charge with green energy). I think I heard Dr Chris say that with Libbi we would be able to mix green generation and battery storage to charge via the Zappi, I can't see how you'd manage these logical decisions of what goes where and when with a 'foreign' battery system. So my point being that giving priority and power mixes to the different devices in different scenarios is only going to be practical when all of the components come from a family of products that intercommunicate with one another. These are just a couple of examples of priority conflicts that come to mind from our experience, there are others and there are bodges and dodges to get arround them but these are always compromises. Whilst I'm always after the best VFM I think it'll be hard for me to now consider anything other than Libbi for the reason of integration and flexibility and having seen how myenergi products work together and not against one another. Sorry that's all a little waffley but hopefully the point gets across? KISS, keep it simple, now where can I fit another 7Kw of PV?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Haha! Yes, I wish I could add double the solar that we currently have planned but alas, the roof space is only so large. I'm glad you found the video helpful. I think from the perspective of a seamless integration with zappi and eddi the libbi looks fantastic. I fear it may come out somewhat pricier than the GivEnergy system so I'm now wondering how much extra cost would I be willing to bear for that seamless experience? Once I get some quotes back I suspect that decision will be clearer. There's also the availability question as I don't yet know when any of my system is likely to get installed, regardless of the equipment involved. The wait is all very frustrating. Regarding your immersion heater, I'd say that 300 W is fine for heating your hot water, that energy won't get wasted it'll just take a lot longer to heat up than when using 3 kW. But yes, with the libbi integration you'd be free to do whatever you want, which is great. Best of luck with adding your battery storage, whatever system you end up getting.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

Thanks Tim, another facinating video, well presented. We are pending an installation much like yours and have been quoted for the GivEnergy batteries (2 x 8.2 kWh in our case), but with a Solar Edge 5kW inverter, as we are having Solar Edge optimizers on our PV panels. The Solar Edge inverter data sheet (SE5000H) quotes a rated and maximum AC power output of 5 kW. Additionally if you take their rated maximum 23 Amp output, this (with 230v) equates to just over 5 kW output. This seems to trump the GivEnergy inverter. The only question I have is the Solar Edge inverter data sheet making no mention of inverter AC input, so they don't categorically say what the maximum rate is to charge the battery from the grid. Unless I am missing something. The other bottleneck in my system might be the battery output maximum. This is quoted at 85 Amps at a nominal 51.2 V, or 4352 W. As I am having 2 batteries and I am assuming they will be wired in parallel, this means a total battery output of 8.7 kW, so not a bottleneck, my limitation of AC output will be 5 kW from the inverter.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Your GivEnergy batteries will be connected by their own inverter to your AC system (so you'll have both the SolarEdge inverter converting the solar DC to AC for the house, and a GivEnergy inverter which converts the AC from the house back to DC for the batteries), so it's the GivEnergy inverter that will be what limits your battery charge/discharge rate, I expect. The data sheet for the GivEnergy AC inverter suggests that will be 3 kW. The two batteries are likely to be daisy-chained together before going into the inverter so will probably still max out at the inverter rating of 3 kW (unless you have two GivEnergy AC inverters, one for each battery, which would give 6 kW total). So in total you'll be able to get 5 kW of solar from the SolarEdge inverter, plus an extra 3 kW from the batteries via the GivEnergy inverter. That is unless you have an unusual system that means you don't have the GivEnergy inverter but it was my understanding that the GivEnergy batteries had to be plugged into a GivEnergy inverter (either AC coupled or hybrid). I'd be interested to know if that's the case as I've not heard of that option before! Best of luck with your install.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Wow, thanks Tim, that is all great input and I appreciate your time. I hadn't understood that the battery pack has its own inverter/rectifier system. If this is the case then the battery technical specifications will dictate its maximum charge and discharge rate (?). Looking at the datasheet for the GivEnergy battery, it states 'Maximum Charging Voltage 59V' and also (for the 8.2 kWh battery) 'Max Charging/Discharging Current 85A/85A'. From this I take it that I can charge or discharge the 8.2 kWh battery at 5015 W, essentially 5 kW. This will be sufficient for me to charge my 16.4 kWh of batteries during the Octopus Go 4 hour low rate window for winter use during the next day.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@Ben-gm9lo I think you'll still be limited by the 3kW charge rate of the GivEnergy AC inverter, rather than the battery itself, so take a look at the datasheet for the inverter. I guess the battery could theoretically charge at 5kW but only if coupled to an inverter that could do the same. Perhaps GivEnergy will bring out an inverter with that capacity at some point in the future, but for now I think you'll be limited to 3kW.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Hi Tim, my quoted components don't include a GivEnergy inverter. It states from PV, with SolarE dge optimisers, to Solar Edge Inverter, to GivEnergy batteries. You believe that the GivEnergy batteries can only work through a GivEnergy inverter, but my installer seems to think otherwise. If he is correct, then both the Solar Edge inverter and the GivEnergy battery data sheets suggest that 5 kW can be passed through in either direction. If you are sure of your assumption then I will need to get back to them before things get too late to change the spec! I do appreciate your continued attention though, you clearly have more time invested in understanding all this than I do.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@Ben-gm9lo that would be very interesting to know if the GivEnergy battery can genuinely be connected directly to a SolarEdge inverter without the need for an additional GivEnergy AC inverter. I'd not heard of that being done before so if that's the case than that's great! If you do speak to your installer and confirm that then please do let me know as I'd always assumed it wasn't possible. I'm very happy to be corrected though.

[@carlarrowsmith]

Interesting you mention the max charging and discharge rates, with my AC coupled Lux PowerTek I don't charge at the full rate. 48v batteries systems are not so efficient and you'll find the cables run a little warm at full chat. I recommend higher voltage systems if you want more than 10kwh capacity.

[@stewreviews9345]

Thank you for that - interesting break down of those two options. Have you also considered more portable options such as Bluetti's AC500? Also provides 5kw output and high charge rate and highly modular so you can add extra batteries in very easily. And of course if you move you can take it with you easily. Downside is more costly and I think harder to make work in the truly integrated way the Libbi appears to promise. Maybe I've answered my own question but interested in your thoughts..

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, we're planning on staying put for a good while yet, so taking batteries with us if we move isn't something I'm worried about, particularly. But that's an interesting option I hadn't considered. As you say it'll come down to price vs the other relative benefits. There's never an easy answer!

[@RedScopeAlpha]

MyEnergy web site shows 1x 5kWh pack with inverter to be £4595+VAT and excluding installation. This is double the price of GivEnergy package.

[@metalhead2550]

I noticed that also!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, that appeared just after I made the video annoyingly! I think the marginal cost of adding an extra 5 kWh module will make it less of a difference to the GivEnergy 9.5 kWh battery + inverter but I expect it'll still be somewhat more expensive, as you say. I'm awaiting a more solid quote from my installer so I can better compare them.

[@all4outdoor738]

Have you seen the new Givenergy “powerwall” which also came out last week at the solar and battery show in brum! Lots of pics on the FB group but can’t find a link atm

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@all4outdoor738 yes, I saw that but haven't been able to find out much about it either. Once there are more details available I might make a video about it.

[@oleww50]

I was really looking forward to this from myenergi, but just far too pricey… was hoping a starting price of around 2k…

[@jamesduffy8669]

Hi Tim I am deciding on which system to go for Can you tell me why you went for Givenergy and not Libbi as in the video you valued the Libbi I already have a ZAPPI fitted on Octopus GO I would appreciate your comments I wish to install it in the house not outside in the weather, and at present I am measuring ip Thanks James

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I made that video before the prices had been announced for the libbi. It ended up being pricier than I was expecting, so the GivEnergy system was better value for money.

[@neilbridgeman7768]

Wait until you see the Givenergy ‘All-in-One’. Basically a PW2 with a Gateway for full home backup.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, I've seen that. Not too many details yet but once they become available I'll do another video about it.

[@kinross24]

The GE battery can discharge much more if using a different inverter. I’m buying a 6kw inverter that can discharge 6kw- 27 amps and the battery can similarly handle 80amps

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I discovered this recently about being able to use GivEnergy batteries with other inverters. I'd always assumed they needed to be paired with a GivEnergy inverter so I'm learning new things all the time!

[@EmyrEvans1]

For the savings you get with the GE system, you could buy a second inverter, essentially doubling your max dis(charge) rates to 7.2 kWh (2 x 3.6).

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

That's true, although I hear there are issues with getting a double inverter system working well. Perhaps a solution is in the works though, making it a more viable option.

[@mikesl1573]

If the Givenergy is a guideline you cannot have 2 inverters on the same phase as there could be data conflict. I looked at 2x9.5 batteries with 2x3kw ac inverters to enable 19kw during a 4hr Octopus go cheap rate and was told no go as data conflict which brings about an interesting theory that if your neighbour had the same system on the same phase would there be data conflict 😂

[@falfield]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk CAN you elaborate on what the problems are with double inverters, Tim? In a UK market where no 4 channel MPPT inverters are available, the only way to get optimisation at inverter level of >2 strings is >1 inverter. In a densely urbanised country at high latitude with a high prevalence of tall chimney stacks, shading is a predictably substantial problem. And with multi-aspect arrays and/or with integrating thin-film and conventional panels, more MPPT trackers are needed than the market currently provides. The only solution to which is multiple inverters. But I see no-one investigating/discussing this.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@falfield GivEnergy are working on multi-inverter solutions do keep your eye out. You can also deal with it by adding external controls such as Home Assistant, but it's still complicated to set up. Basically, if you have multiple inverters they keep fighting each other so the batteries cross-charge, i.e. charge and discharge each other. Not simple to manage properly.

[@keithhobbs1]

One thing in favour of Givenergy is their new kit has 100 percent depth of discharge. So you might get a tad more than a 10kwh Libbi. Be interesting to know what the lead times on the kit are. I waited 6 months for my Givenergy battery. Think Givenergy are also going to be setting up manufacturing in the UK which might make it easier to get hold of kit. No idea on timescales for that mind b

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, the libbi has 4.6 kWh of usable capacity per 5.1 kWh module, so the direct comparison would be 9.5 kWh for GivEnergy vs 9.2 kWh for a two module libbi. No word yet on lead times or cost of that system though, so it'll be interesting to see when those numbers come in.

[@168dac]

Thanks for a great video. I've been waiting 6 months now for a Givenergy Gen 2 system and after many broken promise/missed delivery date I'm finally at the end of my tether and looking for an alternative. This looks like the perfect solution but my main concern with this system is availability. I don't want to be disappearing down the same delivery worm hole that I've experienced with Givenergy. Have you had any update on the availability of the Libbi since you published this video. I think the maximum charge & discharge rate on the Libbi makes it far superior to the Givenergy system too

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Take a look at a couple of my more recent videos for news on the libbi availability and price(s). You'll find it somewhat pricier than the GivEnergy system, though. Incidentally, I've also been made aware of the KStar system being available in the UK now and that's a similar price to the GivEnergy so that might be worth a look too. Search for Cambridge renewables as they're the KStar supplier for the UK.

[@dtpazz]

Hi Tim. They are max figures. My installer has informed me limit of BMS on the GE battey is 3kW. So it's not as straight forward as looking at the inverter specs.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

The battery specs suggest it can cope with 4.7 kW charge/discharge, so the inverter appears to be the limiting factor. But maybe there's something I'm missing.

[@dtpazz]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I decided last night after having watched you video I will call GivEnergy technical. Do you discuss battery storage/solar on a forum or FB group by any chance?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@dtpazz no, I don't use FB and am not a fan of forums.

[@AlistairLevie]

Hi, buying a battery for a non techi is an absolute minefield. We can't even be sure it is worth buying one at all. Who do we go to with our consumption and tariff figures for independent advice? Battery and solar providers naturally say yes and have a conflict of interest. Does anyone know who offers such a service please? Thank you.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

This is an excellent question and not one I currently have an answer for, unfortunately. However, at present you might find some use by trying out the Solarazma tool developed by Gary Does Solar (check out his excellent channel if you've not done so already). You can use it to try out various tariff and solar setups to see if you could save money. However, you probably need to have some idea of the sort of system you'd be considering beforehand, it won't tell you what's best for you, but it will help you understand the sort of things worth considering, potentially.

[@EddieGittins]

Have you considered duel inverters? you could run that toaster ;). I don’t have Solar. I just want to take advantage for my cheap overnight rate.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, that's something I considered but at the moment there are problems running multiple inverters on one phase. Something to do with not being able to balance the batteries properly, or something. I believe GivEnergy are working on a solution but who knows how long that will take!

[@andyhodchild8]

You do mention the backup output at the end, I am concerned about some of these outputs on TN Supplies due to potential loss of distribution earth? The only larger scale backups that seem to have this issue covered are SMA and Victron with fronius working on it. Oh and I think Tesla but have not looked into it as I don't like the company.

[@dama054]

Just add a relay that will switch when the grid goes down job done

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, this is a question for my installer, it's not something I know much about. I just know that it's possible to have limited back-up functionality in the event of a power-cut.

[@psylsph]

I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that the v2 hybrid inventor can be unlocked to 4.6kw charge and discharge

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

If that's true that would be excellent. Let me know if you find the source of that info!

[@jamesduffy8669]

Hi Time Libbi or GIVENERY On thing the GIVENERY battery 2 at 9.5 and a 5 inverter has to be mounted on the wall outside. Confused about the weather, rain etc. Can they be mounted in the dry in the loft?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Mine is in the garage. It doesn't have to go outside. Take a look at my install here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2LQep-gjtl5mtU

[@tjbrison]

Great video - but did I see a massive difference in warranty length between these to battery manufacturers - or perhaps I wasn't paying attention properly :-)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

They were essentially the same, so far as I can tell. 10 years for the batteries and 5 for the inverters.

[@JohnR31415]

Announced cost is very premium from what I’ve seen

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I've not managed to find a solid price for the libbi yet, where did you find this out of interest? I'm curious to see how it compares to the Kstar version

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@johnwilkins2023 ah ha! That wasn't there when I made the video. Sneaky.

[@iancollyer9995]

thanks for the comparison. Is installing battery storage in the home VAT free or this is only applicable to solar?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Batteries are VAT free only when installed at the same time as a solar installation.

[@stuartpocklington7107]

The libbi stacking from the bottom seems odd. Every time you want to add to it, everything has to move up including the wiring etc I presume? Would make sense to flip it

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I don't know how that would work exactly. It looks to me that you'd just add another one to the bottom so the wiring for the original batteries would stay in place and you'd just plug new cables between the previous bottom battery and the new bottom battery. It also looks like you can have them side by side and just run the cables horizontally between the batteries.

[@AndrewEbling]

I wonder if the integration with the Zappi will be that great, given it’s a rebranded product? My installer steered me away from the Zappi, saying it wouldn’t play nicely with the GivEnergy battery - may hold fire on upgrading to a smart charger until GivEnergy bring out their EV charger.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, the GivEnergy charger seems to have been "coming soon" for a while now, I'm not sure why. They also appear to have a power diverter in the works to rival the eddi but I've not seen any details on when that might be available.

[@klanbo78]

I'm also excited about this, but doesn't seem to tick quite as many boxes as the new GivEnergy 13.5kw all in one product they've just showcased! Glad I held off the 9.5kw option now :-)

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ooh, I'd not heard of that one! Thanks for letting me know I'm going to look into that!

[@klanbo78]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one faced with the dilemma of what and when to buy 😊

[@techable7524]

Any info on this please?

[@techable7524]

@@klanbo78 Thank you!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@klanbo78 ooh, that's handy, thanks. Feels like I'm going to have to do another video about that soon...

[@jamesduffy8669]

Hello again, Tim One more question If I go with Givenery all in one and Octopus GO for the Elecric car. Will yhey clash?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Not sure what you mean by clash. Do you mean the battery would discharge into the EV? There are some things you can do to prevent that, for example setting the battery to charge at the same time as you're charging the EV, so that the battery won't discharge below the level you set. That's what we currently do, as you can see in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJfRo6mig7iWi6c You could do the same with the All In One.

[@gaflandia2170]

Hello, is 3.6kW discharge enough for your house? Or you would go for different battery with higher discharge? Thanks i am thinking to get 9.5kW Givenergy battery. So concerned about that

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

So far I've had very little peak grid draw (about a couple of pence per day) so 3.6 kW has been more than adequate the vast majority of the time.

[@peterjones6640]

The Myenergi site also says that they will be launching a three phase version of the Libbi in the near future, potentially useful for me as I have three phase.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I would love to have a three phase supply. Maybe one day.

[@peterjones6640]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I was lucky cable was already there but house ( originally had been divided into three small flats) had been put in single phase. U.K. Power Networks put me back on three phase ( no charge) electricity supplier changed my meter ( no charge), then I had put in 22kw EV charger ( for Renault Zoe), result.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@peterjones6640 lovely. Living the dream.

[@ManChickin]

I find givenergy incredibly miss leading... i was under the impression the 5kw inverted discharged at around 5kw, not the low rate. That may just sway my choice of battery. it seem silly to go for the 5kw now that if i did get an electric car it simply wouldnt be man enough to get alot of charge in

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

You don't want to use your home storage battery to charge your car, really. It's better to charge your car overnight using a cheap time of use tariff (you'd drain a home storage battery in no time if you used it to charge your car as a car battery is huge in comparison). Your home battery is better suited to supporting your home demand instead. In which case 3.6 kW is good for most situations. If in doubt always check the datasheet before making any decisions as that has all the specs.

[@AdrianColes]

Have you checked out the GSL system available on the its technologies website? Looks also like similar underlying produc to Libby

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ah, I'd not checked out GSL before, thanks for pointing them out. I'll take a look!

[@offgridsolaruk843]

Victron is so far ahead of China right now, Chinese software and systems need some serious consideration, also if going off grid, make sure you check out the continous discharge and charging currents of your battery system.

[@larsmenken2679]

Does the peak output really matter that much? If you aren't toasting bread and making tea for an hour flat, would you feel it?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

No, exactly, that was the point I was making at the end. It'll be a couple of pence per day.

[@JeremyCobb]

This is really good info and helps me a great deal since I am in a very similar position to you BUT how do I calculate my draw at any point to work out if this is man enough run what I need at any point. Like the heating and other stuff without drawing from the grid.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

If you have a smart meter and an in house display you can use that to show you instantaneous power draw. If you don't then you can estimate it from common appliance power ratings such as kettles (3 kW) and adding up what you often use at the same time. 5 kW should cover most normal use. I also have another video that demonstrates some of this (link in next reply).

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3-6m3Z5a7-Zj68

[@Podelect]

So what is I have an existing 6 kw inverter and 9 kw pv System can I buy the Libby without an inverter or how does it work

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I think you need the inverter still, but you'd connect it as an AC coupled system, so no PV plugged into it.

[@johnboykuk]

I've been investigating the exact same 2 solutions. Was going to go for the myenergi, except I spotted that givenergy are releasing an ev charger, which puts them both pretty much on par. Might just come down to price.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, I think that's gonna be what swings it for me one way or the other. Awaiting quotes now.

[@ElieMATTA]

Indeed, they still don't have an 'Eddi/Harvi' equivalent though..

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@ElieMATTA is heard rumours they were working on an eddi equivalent but who knows how long that will take to materialise.

[@johnmitchell3027]

EVM video on KZbin suggests Givenergy via an update will offer divertor capability within their inverter, so Eddi built in, without the additional cost? If so understood correctly. Doing my learning as we speak and thanks for your videos. On the same path I think.

[@gavjlewis]

If you are worried about tea and toast just get a lower watt kettle and toaster. This will also help when you are producing solar. Halfords do a range for about £50 for a kettle (900w) and toast (950w). Grab one now to see if you get on with them before you splash out on an expensive battery. You are also doing your bit by taking spikes out of the grid supply now.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, that is one option. Although that's not the only situation where we currently draw more than 3.6 kW, we'll be showing a few other scenarios in a future video.

[@BerkeleyTowers]

Nice vid..... Just one point though..... and unless I'm missing something, your KStar price from Holland was short of 22 or 24% addition for VAT and Import Duty?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

VAT isn't included on either of the prices I showed so the comparison is fair (I don't believe import duty is relevant since the point of this was to find a likely lower limit price for libbi once it's available in the UK, not importing it from another country). In either case VAT isn't applied to batteries that are installed along with a solar system at the same time.

[@BerkeleyTowers]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I see..... it's an interesting dilemma if you're DIY all the way (like me) .... There's possibly a calculation to be made as to whether to go down the pro install path for a complete install if you're saving 20%.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@BerkeleyTowers yes, indeed, I don't know what the situation is with DIY installs, I wonder if it's possible to get it VAT free via some official system. Let me know if you find out!

[@BerkeleyTowers]

I asked HMRC the question. You have to be VAT registered. Judging by the Q&A page, a supposedly simple concept is as clear as mud and full of caveats. community.hmrc.gov.uk/customerforums/vat/23302d7a-49db-ec11-bea1-00155d9c6f7d

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@BerkeleyTowers ah, I see, that's annoying.

[@ElsavUk]

Great little informative video, we have started to list this product for pre sale today, there is some additional information now available. Let us know if you would like some additional info.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ooh, that's good to know! Yes I would absolutely be interested in knowing more about it, thank you. If you'd prefer to provide that via email you can find my address in the About tab.

[@ElsavUk]

Good afternoon, exactly why we didn’t in the comment, we didn’t want to use your platform for tacky promotion. We will send across some informations shortly.

[@ElsavUk]

No email on the about tab

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@ElsavUk click on the "business enquiries" button and it'll show the address.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@ElsavUk although it seems on the phone app that button doesn't appear but it does on the website version. Weird.

[@markelson1209]

Hi Tim you've not added vat to the givenergy prices on midsummer site so the difference will be less, have you ever thought about using a low wattage kettle? great vids keep it up.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ah, yes, good point about the VAT. As it happens we're planning on replacing our 3 kW kettle with a 2.2 kW one when it dies (which looks like it might be pretty soon), so that will definitely help a bit, but it'd still be nice to have that extra capacity in the discharge rate, just in case.

[@Ben-gm9lo]

Surely, if the installer does the purchasing and it is all part of a PV installation, it attracts zero VAT at the moment? My current quote for a PV/battery/EV charger system is zero VAT.

[@MrKlawUK]

the price on that dutch site also quoted 0% VAT so will need to have VAT added.

[@MrKlawUK]

honestly for a kettle I’d prefer speed of boiling over saving the last ounce of grid energy. If you’re boiling the kettle while its sunny + battery you’lll be fine, only need a tiny grid pull if there is no solar. My kettle has used 0.99kwh in the past week.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@MrKlawUK Yes, that's fair, although it just feels nicer to not have to draw from the grid!

[@smithroger]

What's your thoughts on the new GivEnergy 13.5 kWh All in One system?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

There's really not much information out there yet about that system so I don't have many thoughts on it. From what I've seen it looks like it's trying to compete with the Powerwall so I could see it appealing to people who are currently thinking of going that way.

[@andrewmellor740]

Would be useful to know the ease and costs involved with selling back into the grid (if known). Very good video

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, most energy suppliers will have some form of smart export guarantee tariff, e.g. Octopus is 4 p/kWh. Once I've got my PV system and have applied for the export tariff I'll do a video about it.

[@odetterollinson-davies4543]

If you consider the price difference, wouldn’t it be better to install 2 x givenergy? Ie 2 x inverter and 2 x 9.5kwh batteries and double the charge/discharge rates…..

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

That is an option, certainly. I believe there are still a few teething problems when it comes to multi-inverter setups with GivEnergy though, although I think they're working on a solution for that (something to do with balancing the two batteries across multiple inverters).

[@robj181eee]

HI Tim, Great content...I am currently going through a similar process to find the best system for me. Have you considered the AlphaESS Smile5 system? The system is LiFePO4 battery chemistry and can charge/ discharge at 4.6KW (i think), is scale-able in around 5KWh modules. I was just about to sign up to a system based around the GivEnergy 5.0kW Hybrid Inverter, but having seen the AlphaESS Smile5 system i think it may be a better bet, primarily due the the higher charge/ discharge rate.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, I took a look at that system after someone else mentioned it. At this stage I think my installer might have a fit if I suggested yet another system! I think I'm happy to now choose between the GivEnergy and myenergi systems and have got quotes incoming for those from my installer for comparison. Once those are in I'll make my final choice.

[@nikkion2140]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Kindly, provide a link or source where to find installer in SE London please. Forgive me, I am clueless and just started looking into this. Thanks. God Bless

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@nikkion2140 I'm really sorry but that's impossible for me to do really. There are so many options available the best bet might be simply to go to Google Maps, or similar, and do a search for solar panel installers in your area. Alternatively look at a national company like first4solar.co.uk. Possibly contact them plus one or two local companies to see what they could offer. Good luck!

[@davidcruse6589]

Yeah their longevity of life span the best thing is you can add up to 4 units over time which will help as they deteriorate if you buy units at different times which mean each one will have a different replacement time it'll give more flexibility 4 time compared to 2 time and means you'll be able to spread the cost over 4 periods The down side I see in all this is longevity panel 25 yrs at best inverter 5yrs and who knows on batteries this all good if you have a job But what happens when you loose employment and these items need replacing where's all this money come from where a $100 a month is easier to fine then $20,000 this is the draw backs I see in renewables longevity Where's nuclar power stations cheap due to their longevity and power would be cheaper as well less pollution ever 5 to 20 years replacing billions of units around the world and once everyone on it prices will rise on components Also solar power is high risk from storm damage and fire here in Australia 🇦🇺 and unit not efficient after 25 degrees our average 30 + so not in optimum range and you guys cold also effects charging of batteries as many ev owners found out in UK on charge all night and because cold barley half charged the vechile by morning I'm not knocking renewables but sadly there a while away from being what they want them to achieve We also having atleast one fire a day from ev products even house batteries and solar panel but mostly ev I wished they where better as ev be great for most city dwellers doing short trips around city as recharge with stop start I personally need to see more reliable and longevity these are my concerns some apartments want allow ev park under them due to amount that's caught fire not even being charged at the time again im not bagging the sadly just reality at the moment I can see insurance companies refusing to insure or charge a large premium if the fires keep happening this regularly and more sold more out their alot more to catch fire Me personally be worried I'd be asleep and batteries catch fire so at the moment for me risk is to high I'm lucky as only person in house and use minimum why bill still just affordable for now But I hope what ever you do it works out for you but I would look at what both batteries life is and how quickly they degrade from charging and decharging as some drop off real quick cheers mate I like you comparison though 🦘🇦🇺👍

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

These batteries are LFP chemistry which don't catch fire. The ones you're thinking of are the NMC chemistry which can catch fire in certain (rare) circumstances. Most home storage batteries nowadays are LFP so are extremely safe. Some EVs are even moving to LFP rather than NMC so that should reduce the number of EV fires too (still safer than ICE powered cars on average though).

[@davidcruse6589]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk OK thanks for information I do remember you saying that on the show now you said that I'm not sure if they're selling here at moment but will look into it Appreciate your help it a bit of a mind field at moment to work out what best Why I like sites like your just finished watching you testing power draw when running multiple items thanks again

[@lshsparks1155]

I hear you! Its a mind boggling amount of tech and microchips for what and average person to live a in a normal domestic dwelling doing everyday stuff with electricity. I just wonder if housing is ever to get cheaper then efficient generation should be centralised and simply grid imported and not incumbent on the end user. Or as the new term is Prosumer! 🙈

[@asabriggs6426]

Thanks for the interesting comparison, something which I am also looking at. The key tradeoff is cost versus usage patterns. Using back-of-the-envelope-calculations, you're looking at £1,500 for an extra 1kW of power. Across 10 years it would need to save £150 a year, so perhaps 1.4kWh/day at 30p/kWh electricity price. Factor in installer markup and you will be over 2kWh/day (implying another 2 * 3.6kW = 7.2kW of electricity being used at the same time). I guess that your air-to-air heating will be the biggest part of the electrical load going through the battery/inverter, with food coming in second place. I see you are considering a lower powered kettle; this plus more sympathetic cooking habits might be an effective form of peak-shaving. I tend to boil water in the kettle while heating up the nearly empty pan on the hob! De-conflicting the house heating and food heating loads would make for an interesting project!

[@asabriggs6426]

To be fair, I believe that a key concern with 3.6kW limit was charging with Octopus Go, but for the ~10kWh battery case this does not apply! Id' better look at your HEAT spreadsheet!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

These are some good calculations, I approve. I expect if the price difference comes out at £1500 or more (for the 10 kWh version of the libbi) then it wouldn't really be worth it for the extra discharge power alone, as you say. However, there is the benefit of the libbi working more seamlessly with the other myenergi devises, which is more difficult to quantify. Would I pay an extra £1500 for a more convenient life over that 10 year period? Maybe, I'm not sure yet. If the price difference comes in closer to £1000 instead, or £2000? That might make the decision a bit easier one way or the other. I've asked my installer for comparison quotes between the GivEnergy 9.5 kWh + 5 kW hybrid inverter system vs the libbi 10 kWh and 15 kWh versions, so with any luck I'll have a better answer to these questions soon. I'll be sure to report those figures in a future video. As far as changing behaviour to mitigate some of our higher load scenarios, that is indeed something I've been thinking about. In fact we're planning a follow-up video covering this sort of thing so hopefully that'll give people something to think about too. You're right that evening cooking is one of those scenarios where our load is highest, so we'll be demonstrating that, along with a couple of other situations where I've noticed our load exceeds 3.6 kW. At the end of the day it's not a huge deal either way, it's just fun to experiment and see how efficient you can be with small changes. And maybe it'll help others to see the sort of things we're thinking about with all this stuff.

[@asabriggs6426]

​@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk OK, yes the integration with other myenergi devices might be convenient. I do think consumer demand management will play a big role in the future, especially with time-of-use tariffs. We've signed up to Octopus Saving Sessions, and are waiting on the signal to tweak our behaviour (cooked food and showers, mostly). Automated demand management would be the ideal but with walled-gardens this may prove challenging; getting heat pumps, batteries and ToU tariffs working together is a tough problem. Companies like Homely are trying to solve it, but need the scale to allow integration with more devices. So it falls to the individual consumers to tweak things manually!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@asabriggs6426 yes, indeed, demand management is an interesting problem and we can all play a part.

[@PitminsterParish]

Looking at the Libbi again ..If I have it correct to retain my FIT payment ..I would need to use my existing inverters in a DC coupled system? This is a shame as I was my initial thought was to use the LIBBI inverter to ' upgrade' my 13 year old system. From the schematic I would ony be paid for excess power back into the grid...when the batteries are full? Your thoughts

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I don't know anything about the FIT, I'm afraid. I think it shouldn't affect your FIT in any way, the only thing that could affect it would be changing to a different export tariff, e.g. Octopus Flux. I don't think adding batteries in any configuration should affect FIT payments, but don't take my word for it. You'd have to ask an expert on the FIT to be sure though, as I am definitely not that.

[@PitminsterParish]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Having dug in a bit deeper,t's not that straightforward ! I got my solar panel 13 years ago and now get 68.3 pence per unit generated ...irrespective of if I use it. The first hurdle I have to sign u to every quarter is that the installation hasn't changed since installation. However the Major issue with using a Hybrid inverter where the panels connect direct to the charging system means 1 If in Winter, all the solar energy goes into the battery ...nothing would be recorded as solar generated . You could have your generation meter between the battery and the consumer unit and this would record the solar power as it is let out of the battery ( you would lose a few % in DC to AC conversion. However there is a Major issue in having the generation meter between the consumer unit and battery.....when the battery is charged OFF Peak from the Grid the meter will not record as it will be being driven backwards. BUT when the stored energy is taken from the battery back to the consumer unit ,,,IT WOULD BE RECORDED as SOLAR Generated ...Which of course is not the case and you would be defrauding the DNO! In 12 years time when I am no longer paid for my generation the FIT will not be an issue but until then I need to look for the most manageable battery system which will interface with the Myenegi Ap ..so that I can control what goes where and when ! For me I need Eddi to be satisfied first ...then the battery IFF I am not charging the car . I do not envisage a situation where I would use the storage battery to charge the car ...or charging from the Grid as I am on a standard tariff and a low user averaging 4 units a day through the year ...It could be argued that I don't actually need a battery! Finally is there a way to communicate with you more directly as at the moment I have to find this KZbin link to reply to you! Kind regards Adrian

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@PitminsterParish goodness, well that is complicated. I am far too late to have the FIT so am not familiar with its details at all, so it's interesting to hear you describe the complications. You can find my email address on the About tab (only visible on desktop, not mobile, for some reason). Although I can't really offer you any advice as I'm not a consultant and am only familiar with my own system.

[@malkum61]

Are there issues charging your EV at night & charging a battery at night at the same time? Aren't domestic Phase 1 supplies limited in Amps meaning you could not do both in the limited 4-hour period of Octopus Go?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

We have a 100A single phase supply, which is 24 kW. Battery is 5 kW, car is 7 kW, so still plenty of headroom, thankfully.

[@richardlincoln886]

I'm sure you do - but go in with your eyes open to components reliant on each other and reliant on cloud presence. On the plus side - the integration functionality will be glossy and cool On the down side - the opportunity for a brittle system/single points of failure taking out the whole thing is increased.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, valid points.

[@peachesfruitella]

There’s a powervault eco version - using 2nd life batteries, which could make the entry affordable. Maybe!?

[@edwardpickering9006]

They've stopped doing them... Probably because so few Nissan Leaf's needed their batteries replacing!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I keep meaning to look into the Powervault batteries. Thanks for reminding me.

[@philipholme9911]

Is the battery and inverter AC connected and G99/ G100 compliant

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

G98 needed for the 3.6 kW inverter, G99 for the 5 kW. G100 is only required if the G99 is rejected. Both are hybrid inverters.

[@tomhickey1207]

Hello Tim, how do you find east/west arrays with regard to amount of sun you get from each array. THANK YOU TOM.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I've not actually got them installed yet (hopefully soon) but from what I've found on the internet my 7.11 kW array should max out at about 5.3 kW combined from both sides, so not too bad! The spread of time through the day where you get generation is longer too, so that is a nice benefit even though the total yield per panel is lower than for a South facing array. I'm actually quite glad I'm getting an E/W split now.

[@davesoton20]

Its very expensive from the prices I have seen. Have you considered a Sunsynk 5kw inverter with 2 x 5kwh Sunsynk batteries or 2x US5000 Pylontechs?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

I'm getting some quotes from my installer so will hopefully know for sure soon. I have looked at those other systems and they have some advantages but at the moment I'm restricting our choice to these two systems.

[@jason8966]

Hi Tim, I found a couple of sources online saying the battery can only be configured to provide power to one circuit in the event of a power cut. Have you found something that says it can back up your whole house like Powerwall does?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yes, that's what I've seen too (only one back-up circuit). Although I believe (but am not certain) that the back-up circuit could be output to a separate consumer unit where it can be split into multiple other important circuits. You'd have to be careful not to overload the max back-up power rate though, so you'd probably have to exclude kitchen circuits. I need to check that with my installer to verify that though as I'm not at all certain that's the case. There is also a GivEnergy all-in-one system incoming that claims to provide full house back-up, like the Powerwall, but there isn't much information out about that yet.

[@theoteam4641]

Thanks for this video. I was actually trying to find the spec sheet for libbi and count not but you helped me find it. I was considering libbi vs Tesla powerwall 2 ( over 12months waiting). I have Eddi, hub, Harvey and want to get Zappi also in the future. The libbi is about £2k more than other Battries and allot more than the Tesla powerwall 2. Why do you think?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

It depends what you're after. I'm surprised this is more than the powerwall 2. Although that's dependent on the capacity, since the powerwall falls in between the 10 kWh and 15 kWh libbi, so the comparison isn't exact. Both have pros and cons and I couldn't tell you which is better because they are better in different ways. Not very helpful, I'm sure! The problem is there are so many different systems and all have their compromises, so it comes down to where you're willing to make that compromise.

[@theoteam4641]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk the powerwal 2 has a usable capacity of 13.5kwh when you can get 3x libbi to get a usable capacity of 13.8kwh which is just 300watts different from the Tesla powerwall. With the powerwall price starting from £6700-£8700 including installation and the libbi starting at £5514 ( am assuming for the smallest one) to not sure as it’s not announced yet. You can see how the process stack up lol

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@theoteam4641 the prices for the libbi are available now. Take a look at my more recent update video with a link to a website that's selling them now.

[@theoteam4641]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk awesome I’ll do that now

[@theoteam4641]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk so looking at it, it looks like the 15kwh battery with 5kw inverter charger is £12,665.74 which is £3965.74 - £5,965.74 more expensive than Tesla powerwall. Hmm I am seriously thinking what else there is that would make it worth while getting it. Unless the price of Tesla powerwall decides to double then yes it’s better to get libbi. Well for the price of the 20kwh libbi I could get Tesla powerwall with 2 modules to give me 27kwh usable energy vs 18.4kwh of usable energy for the libbi. Maybe I am missing something because to me the figures don’t add up.

[@grahambrown42]

With the MyEnergy battery system, is it one inverter for 1 up to a max of 20Kwh system of 4x 5Kwh batteries? So with Octopus GO, you can use the overnight 4 hour off peak tariff for maximum charge of 4x 4.6Kw input rate, so 18.4Kwh?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

The charge rate through the hybrid inverter is only 3.6 kW sadly, not 4.6 kW.

[@grahambrown42]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk I thought there was 2 options for the inverter? Anyway, is it just one inverter on a system of up to a max of 4x 5Kwh batteries ?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@grahambrown42 oh, sorry, yes, I thought you said GivEnergy not myenergi! So yes, 4.6 kW charge rate for the 5 kW inverter which would give you 18.4 kWh in 4 hrs. And yes, it's just the one inverter for up to 4 modules of 5 kWh.

[@razorg4421]

Sorry if im asking a very obvious question here but you seem a clever guy. I am wondering if I will blow a fuse ha ha. I will be looking at using EDF 8p per kw midnight to 5am tariff. I would be charging my EV taxi every night at 6.6kw. Would charging a battery storage unit at 5kw at the same time blow my house up? Maye stick the washing machine on timer for 1am too ha ha

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Take a look at the main fuse in your house. They tend to range from 60A in older properties to 100A in newer ones. With a 60A fuse you can draw about 14 kW, at 100A you can draw 24 kW. That should help give you an idea of what your house can cope with.

[@razorg4421]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk thanks for that

[@edwyncorteen1527]

When planning your solar and battery be prepared for very poor generation in winter! My 6kW E/W split system produces 10-20kWh a Week in winter compared to up to 30kWh a day in summer. You will need a cheap overnight tariff.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yup, we're on Octopus Go so are planning to use that to charge the batteries overnight in winter.

[@imstillhere6678]

Keep in mind the 1st generation Zappi is not compatible with the Libbi. You’d need to buy a new Zappi (£700+) to get any kind of integration.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Ah, that's interesting.

[@ashtontechhelp]

Just a thought on night charging - bear in mind that, in spring / summer / autumn you will also be charging during the day, using excess solar capacity. In fact, you might (if you check the weather) be able to not charge at night at all. Either way, daytime charging is in excess of night time charging, so when the sun is available you may well be able to fill your batteries, even at 20KWh, in summer time. Given that you will be running your AC system, you will be grateful for the extra capacity - and when you need it most is when the sun is out, so you will be better able to offset.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Yeah, the overnight charging was mainly intended for the winter but if the forecast was for a sunny day the next day I expect some solar charging would be possible, for sure.

[@dbcooper7326]

Great video. Will the libbi run without grid ?

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Only to a limited degree, similar to the GivEnergy system. It'll provide back-up power to a dedicated circuit not the whole house (although I think it might be possible to back-up several circuits via a separate back-up consumer unit, but I've not confirmed that yet).

[@dbcooper7326]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk Thanks, I was thinking of getting a system like this to mitigate against the possible/probable power blackouts currently being planned/considered this winter. So if this is not possible (safey of course for the linesmen) then it is more of an energy saving solution. Great video though.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

@@dbcooper7326 there might be a way to back-up the whole house but you have to manually switch it over in the event of a power-cut and be very careful what you turn on so as not to exceed the output limit of the battery. Worth talking to an installer about that though as I don't know the details.

[@billmartin8702]

Hi Tim, just getting in to this Solar, Inverter, Battery business. We have recently had installed a standard system of 11 panels, Solis RHI-5G Hybrid Inverter and a couple of Pylontech US3000c batteries, on Octopus Agile. We set up to charge overnight at this time of the year with no sun, but as the batteries are exhausted by noon ish, looking to increase the Pylontech. Our local man advises just one more battery, but the supplier says up to 16 is possible! Whatever the answer, could we be looking to integrate a second string installation with the Myenergi app and Libbi etc..? Any comment and advice most welcome, thanks.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Your installer would be better placed to advise you, honestly, as they would know your setup better. A totally separate system has some advantages but it does add complexity. If you're not able to add the second string to your existing inverter then you can more or less do what you want with the second system. You'll find the libbi to be more expensive than your Pylontech batteries, but if you have an eddi or zappi already the libbi does have the benefit of integrating with those other myenergi devices. If you don't already have, or are planning to get, those other myenergi devices then there are lots of cheaper options available to consider (GivEnergy, SunSynk, Alpha ESS, Fox ESS, or Pylontech of course, for example).

[@billmartin8702]

@@TimAndKatsGreenWalk All good advice, thanks. Solartogether installed via our local district council, very reasonable, in and out in a day, but seems they have swept through Southern Counties and are now concentrating their services in East Anglia possibly.? Our local leccy is also on a learning curve, as well as everyone else trying to cope with a surge of interest. We will remain vigilant now that we have caught the green energy bug..! Great videos Tim, keep up the good work..!

[@lshsparks1155]

I really want to be on board with this tech but i have a nagging feeling we are heading towards a new Dieselgate with battery storage in the future...."Were you sold a 10kwh hour battery in 2025-2035 but its performance was not within spec after 5yrs and even from the off!? Claim now!" If it can't deliver 10kwh only 9.2kwh useable when new 🙄 then after some cell degradation 10yrs down the line it will be sub 8.5kwh?! They should should just sell and market it as what it can deliver. People may say ah its in the spec sheet pdf but your average joe should be expected to be a battery tech expert. Like saying ah you didn't check the Nox on your Diesel in 2005 🙄 To All the Octopi members 😉. If Octopus ditch all their super cheap off peak tariffs will your numbers still stack up!? With battery storage are we not just supplementing the grid capacity overvall at OUR own expense!? Its already only 4hrs, off peak used to be considered 7pm- 7am! When we have 10m EVs on the road its going to be very interesting! That off peak window is only going to narrow. For all the talk of agile tariffs our nations and many others i am sure usage profile is similar....early am peak, early evening peak far lower after 8pm as has been that way for decades. GOV must have a secret fusion reactor tucked away in a bunker i hope!

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

Time of day tariffs are here to stay, mark my words. If anything they'll get more common.

[@TreeWorksUK]

Have a look at the specs for the Alpha ESS Smile 5? I think it would suit your requirements even better.

[@TimAndKatsGreenWalk]

That's very interesting, I'd not seen that solution before, thanks for pointing it out. The specs look pretty similar to the libbi (although with a slightly higher 5 kW charge rate). The benefit of the libbi though is the integration with the eddi and zappi. That does appeal to me.