My opinion on Smashbox's legality

Just sharing my opinion on the Smashbox legality discussion.
Hitbox demo:
• Smash Box SSBM - Melee...
Opinion of others:
Dustin Hitbox - • #freethehitbox Creator...
Gravy Hitbox - • Smashbox Legality
Crimson Blur - • Out of Focus: Should T...
Esam - • Video
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Music: Break the Targets remix
• TARGET BLITZ (Break th...

[@Dohiwario]

No control will beat the DK bongos.

[@icebear6757]

DDR pad is a close second though

[@chachawho435]

Noah T.A i agree

[@Cusk0]

I'll take your DK bongos and raise you the resident evil 4 chainsaw controller.

[@megamrth1]

I'd go for the just dance karaoke mike

[@Mario4576]

don't forget DJ hero controller for the nintendo Wii

[@colossaldonut5190]

Fuck it, I'm still gonna use the Wii Wheel as my controller, banned or not

[@MaybeMysticc]

I want to see this now

[@colossaldonut5190]

I'm pretty sure the Wii Wheel is legit banned tho

[@colossaldonut5190]

I thought all controller mods were banned, wait, does that mean I can also use the Wii Racket and N-Zap in Smash? That's awesome!

[@radiationbacon]

i94Rules wireless controllees are banned for the most part to due to the hastle of having to sync to the console, etc.

[@vroom221]

DA WHEEL? YOU THERE?

[@MrMockRock]

I think part of the drama here is from some of the most spotlighted opponents and proponents having TERRIBLE FUCKING ARGUMENTS. On one end, you've got Hitbox Dustin going "it's just good stuff guys, I can't believe anyone is resisting this, what the hell?" On the other end, you've got Blur going "the movements you make on a Gamecube controller are just what it means to play Melee and everything else is wrong and that's that." Which are both just mind-numbingly stupid things to bring up in a debate. When I _do_ see people bring up genuinely objective arguments on both sides, I just find myself favouring its legality over and over again. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but I'm really yet to see an argument that does that.

[@e.s.k.5756]

MockRock - Smash Bros and More i feel like a lot of the debate is kind of split because if the smashbox is allowed, then all controller mods should be legal, and vice versa. I personally think that it is a good controller and should be legal, but only if the community makes specific guidelines for controller mods to make the playing field even. Because allowing this controller mod could lead to a bunch of others which may not be fair. The match will mostly come down to skill, but things like stages, character matchups and controllers still matter

[@DIVAD291]

games are made based on their restrictions...what makes melee techs so impressive and fun to watch is their difficulty. remove that and the game loses its soul, when you play melee and you decide to go for a difficult option you take a risk. if you remove that risk you remove the reward from it. precision is also a skill...i like precise shit, i dont see any objective reason why we should remove the precision requirements of the game. why not remove the reaction time requirements of the game and make it a turn based game? and no this is not an objective argument...do you know why im not even trying to make an objective argument? because were talking about a game...games are essentially a set of rules that humans create for themselves. there is no objective reason why you should/shouldnt use your hands in soccer...and there is no objective reason why you should/shouldnt use the smashbox. we subjectively make up the rules in order to have fun. also here is a much much more objective argument than "the smashbox helps with hand health". not playing the game at all helps with hand health. thats a more objective argument(because remember nothing is truly objective by virtue of how your reality is really just what you interpret of reality and not neccessarily reality.) but its fucking stupid right? thats because this is about your subjective prefferences and nothing else.

[@MrMockRock]

DIVAD291 a) Gamecube controllers inherently don't reward precision because of their own inconsistency. b) "The game loses its soul" isn't an argument. I say the game loses its soul if you pick a blue skin because blue has no soul. Think that sounds ridiculous? Prove me wrong.

[@DIVAD291]

MockRock - Smash Bros and More even if they are inconsistent...they still reward precision more by virtue of being analog inputs. b) did you seriously not read my post? why bother responding if you didnt read it? or maybe youre just trying to annoy me? why? if you dont want to have a serious argument i dont mind but just say that so we can move on.

[@ClintonChelak]

DIVAD291 Precision will still be demanded from this box. It's not easy-mode auto-input 3DS street fighter or something. It's just removing joy sticks. See MvC community or SFV for examples. Players use both boxes and controllers. See Knuckledu and SnakeEyes. The tech is still demanded either way, such as linking and countering, etc.

[@1uparcade33]

I'm not entirely sure if adding the Smashbox is good or not, but the way I see it, it's sort of illogical to ban it right away. We could give it the customs treatment, let it be legal for a couple months to a year and see how it turns out.

[@Coronelfarofa]

It is still better than not allowing it at all

[@ArmaRood]

Electrix 272 people are going to whine and complain either way I don't see the problem here.

[@asunflorawearingahat2540]

A controller peripheral doesn't automatically make you a god at the game, anyone who's switched to an arcade stick knows that. Same with the smash box. Sidenote; That thing is going to fucking destroy your hands

[@trueburst3960]

CRYSTAL_CLEAR100 that profile pic tho

[@viken_lidaen]

Arcade sticks use different hand muscles so yeah

[@mitrimind1027]

The controller is just like a keyboard and I know that many people would rather use a video game controller.

[@randomnom]

You kinda lose all respect if you actually have porn as an icon so.. *Sharp inhale*

[@atmaillumina]

Random Nom not really... that is irrelevant

[@HectorGonzalez-qx9nk]

Should it be legal? Yes. Will it catch on? No.

[@tristandalton92]

Should it be legal? No. Will it catch on? Maybe.

[@BergomyLegendre]

Tristan Dalton why shouldn't it be legal?

[@tristandalton92]

Brave HearteGuy It's a controller with higher potential that is too expensive for the average player to afford. The idea that the meta might reach new heights is flashy, but you shouldn't want it to reach new heights because some players bought a 300 dollar hitbox that made shield dropping a series of button inputs not a rigorously impressive and masterful hand motion. this applies even more so with pivot tilts. I'm a falco and marth main, believe me if you make a controller with pivot up and down tilts, it will be breaking the spacing game.

[@rafaelgayon]

Somekids pay 400 dollars for a arcade stick. That expensive excuse is bullshit

[@vasishtsuresh793]

Rafael Gayon the argument that some kids can afford it is bs. There should never be something that costs $400 that is able to give a clear advantage. It should never be allowed because not all players are in a position where they can drop $400 on smash.

[@silicalnz]

This is just like what happened with osu! The default contoller is a mouse and so new players use a mouse to get used to the game. But when they develop in skill and become more competitive they'll purchase a tablet in order to improve further. There are still players that are competitive with a mouse but they a few and far between. This is not a bad thing, in fact everyone that purchases a tablet is relieved when they do because of the increased comfort and flexibility it provides (after using a mouse for 100 hours or so) Your community should embrace this controller as a stepping stone of improvement, as without a tablet, osu! professionals would be alot rarer.

[@silicalnz]

wacom.com/-/media/wacomdotcom/images/products/pen-tablets/intuos-comic/gallery/cth490b_galleryimage_1_600x600_emea.jpg?h=600&la=en&w=600&hash=BF7F563C1B023E0CD9D7D02C8993A8328494DB13 The before mentioned tablet

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

SilicalNZ except some things are impossible with this controller like most of the over 200 fire fox angles in melee.

[@jimworld7070]

real men tap with the tablet like if it was elite beat agents and then get their ass kicked when anything harder than 3 stars shows up

[@teetoew]

Actually if you start combining tablet tapping with keyboard tapping that playstyle becomes incredibly good later on allowing you to play stupidly high bpm maps. Its called Tapx

[@teetoew]

Also could be compared to people switching from clicking with mouse to keyboard, I know there was a guy that changed his mouse clicks to z/x with a program and then it got added to the base game

[@DairunCates]

I'm sorry, but if we're seriously considering banning a control scheme for being POTENTIALLY better at this point, the Smash community really has just become too ban-happy. There's not objective advantage with this controller that makes it probably better. It's not like it includes a turbo or macro button. You're doing the exact same inputs, just exclusively with buttons. It's not short-cutting anything. Evo let a guy play with a PS1 controller because he wanted to and he won. No one's talking about banning PS1 controllers. This weird idea that the game HAS to be controlled THIS EXACT WAY especially with a controller that Nintendo WILL stop making eventually is just ridiculous. At that point, you're just enforcing things just to make sure nothing ever changes in the meta again.

[@user-gc1ux1wp7u]

honestly the smash community isn't good. rude people, memes, and bans are what its made up of.

[@httohot]

theres a difference between a game created around using fight sticks/other controller schemes, and a game where a wholly different third party creates a fight stick for the game. Because the game was not built with the fight stick in mind there is a very good chance that it will be either objectively worse or better than the other controller methods. At which point everyone will have to buy/avoid a fight stick if they want to be competitive. Keep in mind that the guy using the ps1 controller is the one person vs the tens of thousands that use fightsticks. Not to mention that he has been using that ps1 controller for over a decade straight while Zangief's(his original main character) moveset has remained relatively unchanged until 2016; that is not a good example of successful alternative controller usage since it requires excessive time to reach that level. its not about meta is about one player having a clear advantage over the other because of ease of input. If its easier to pull of crazy combos on the fightsticks then it might not be a good if the creators made the difficulty of the combos rely on the controller scheme being harder to use. A good comparison might be using lower weighted gloves than your opponent in boxing, . The volume, material, brand, style of the gloves may be the same but that small change in glove weight gives an objective advantage to one opponent as its easier to throw certain punches. Again the big difference to focus on is that the game was not built for fightsticks, just like a boxing match rules was not created around opponents using differently weighted gloves. We need time and testing to see if there is an unfair advantage before anything is allowed or banned. I think they should probably be allowed for everything but melee since melee has such a large focus on technical execution.

[@DairunCates]

reasly dutchmans I mean, fair, but it's not like the majority of fighting game players own fight sticks either. They're a pretty big investment and a lot of people do just use controllers. It's true for MOST of competitive, but hell. We have players that still use wii-mote and nunchuk. It's not like this controller is going to be the best for everyone, and I don't believe there's any reason to believe that EVERYONE is gonna have to learn it. People really did say the same thing about Bidou... and they didn't. There's also another interesting problem here in that the controllers people play smash on are LEGITIMATELY at risk of going extinct. So, another 5 years down the line, keeping only one controller setup for melee may actually kill the game just because of how cost prohibitive it is to enter. The things were already getting around 50 bucks a pop before Nintendo did the re-release, and the game series is more popular than ever. But yeah. If the controller isn't using macros and is still requiring the same number of button prompts AND it has the extra advantage of lessening injuries, I think it's ridiculous to try to discount the thing immediately. It's basically just a different way of doing the same exact thing, and I don't think the box is objectively better since you lose a LOT of control over your control stick in the process. Some advanced techs may become easier, but perfectly angled fox fires to the ledge are gonna be a nightmare. It WILL work for some players though, and it'll open up possibilities. So, I really do think it's genuinely silly to talk about banning it before it's even tried.

[@httohot]

DairunCates well said, you're absolutely right about it being ridiculous to discount it asap when it address so many issues and at face value gives no clear advantages/disadvantages I think Im going to start stocking up on gamecube controllers now that you mention extinction. Garage sale hunting time!

[@user-gc1ux1wp7u]

I left solely on the community and honestly it needs to change.

[@YTRoflcopter]

I rather use the Mario Party Mic

[@Vlaffffy]

Amateur, good luck beating me with my Dk bongos.

[@PASTELXENON]

Vladimir Chavez why not the nes classic controller?

[@YTRoflcopter]

Why not a Guitar hero drumset?

[@The_Fabricator]

why not a wii fit balance board?

[@niccage6375]

nah man, its the steel battalion controller is the best for smash

[@Dulcestratus]

smashbox allows more consistency with inputs, 20XX is almost here boys

[@thatonekidsin3116]

Broserade not the way i see it but what do i know

[@gatorssbm]

well see if 20XX foxes can do a "mew2king angle"

[@fdthqwerty]

Mango Nation: "Actually, it's a mangle"

[@thatonekidsin3116]

Cedric Wong mangle is when you angle when you dodge and m2k angle is the original name for angles

[@themacattack671]

mangle is different than a m2kangle

[@radtad890]

Smashbox should be legal. Getting it won't make you a god, and it will help out players with injuries. There's no real advantage, skill will always win. It's not like you're playing a different character, just using a different controller

[@XxXJOHNYB0YXxX]

Rad Tad that’s just not how it works though lol

[@ExpendableCrumb]

Rad Tad I get what you are saying, but that’s the biggest problem with cross play right now. They don’t want to do full cross play because of controller vs mouse and keyboard.

[@markvo250]

Rad Tad Yes, but people need to get used to the controllers in the first place. They can be really skilled in Smash until they’re forced to play with controllers they’ve never used.

[@olivialambert4124]

It would actually be VERY easy to make a controller which is suitable for players with injuries and offers no advantage. Contrary to the video, the wrist actually faces no problems with current control methods. The thumbs are what faces the problems. Keeping the right side of the smashbox and changing the directional buttons for a conventional fighter stick shape with analogue input would make for a controller usable with thumb injuries yet with no advantages. Also there is a problem with society saying that everyone needs to be able to do everything, even at the detriment of others. Since having bone cancer I've got constant knee pain and can no longer manage just about any sports. As someone who did high level athletics among other sports I would be one of the most disadvantaged by the idea that not everyone should be able to do everything. But its fine, I stopped athletics, I found other things I was capable of, and I continued with life. I can still have a hobby, hell I can still do a number of sports in a non-competitive fashion. However detrimenting everyone else wouldn't be the way to do it, and frankly not being able to do one hobby out of the millions around isn't really the end of the world anyway.

[@James-pb8xu]

@@olivialambert4124 There's society saying everyone should be able to do everything, even at the cost of others, and there's sports, like football,that causes injuries to players and officials mandating and creating new technology to offset those injuries. This controller could be one of the technologies designed to help reduce injuries. Melee Fox is known for causing physical issues, so why not design something better. Hax can't play for this reason. M2K should've gone to the doctor.

[@mmmmmmmtoast]

Arcade sticks are fine with just about every other fighting game, why not smashbox?

[@julioarcaiko]

Matt Fletcher they're not used to it, and the community doesn't like change. I mean, how many Melee elitist still attack players for playing smash 4? It's the same community and they're always bickering

[@mmmmmmmtoast]

Jewlz Cartagena I think thats the vocal minority tbh. We have plenty of players who play both Sm4sh and Melee, and they clearly each have pros and cons.

[@maikai196]

It has to do with how the Smashbox has analog to digital conversion. The biggest problem that I have with it is that the analog to digital conversion allows a pretty much broken amount of SDI in melee that is practically physically impossible to perform on a gamecube controller. It basically creates a situation where the controllers that people use aren't equal enough. I don't know how much of an effect the Smashbox would have in Smash 4, but in Melee, the SDI advantage would break so many combos it isn't even funny. This sort of starts the conversation of what sort of controller modifications are allowed and that's a whole other thing.

[@seakladoom]

Because smash isn't a fighting game :^)))))

[@Buurazu]

Replacing buttons with buttons is fine. Replacing "left on the analog stick" with a button is an issue. simple as that

[@cpyles4]

And then someone tries to recover as Fox and the entire concept gets thrown out the window

[@erronn.]

lmao

[@erronn.]

what about ness? or pika

[@prycethebeast]

at the end of the day fundamental knowledge of the game and it's mechanics will always win. doesn't matter how consistently you can do whatever technique, if you don't have the knowing of when or where to execute it.

[@prycethebeast]

basically, it should be legal because it doesn't provide any clear cut advantage over other apparatuses. the level of execution is still there and it's not being done automatically via macro so I seriously don't see the big deal. especially when hitbox products are used for other games such as marvel, street fighter, tekken, soul calibur, etc.

[@NaJk93]

Completely agree Pryce. Nate blumentritt, how do you even know that? Have you seen leffen practice in top shape? He does not miss a single tech for like 10 minutes.. it's fucking bananas. But in games you fuck up, because of nerves. The smashbox does not cure fucking nerves. The gods of meele can do everything like this already AND consistently. The smashbox in my view is for people who like me have damaged hands. oh and you think someone can just become as good as armada, leffen, hbox by using a different controller? Hahahahaha

[@nickq8093]

the big deal is that compared to other FGs melee requires much greater precision when using a stick. marvel, streetfighter, tekken and soul calibur convert analog inputs to digital ones by default, such that an analog and a digital input are functionally identical to the game. being able to precisely dictate how your stick is angled makes no difference. Melee however uses analog inputs, and has around 16 different analog stick regions in shield and and standing position alone, at least one of them 1/256th of the stick traverse across, with the shield drop angle being around 3/256ths across. Being able to input those regions accurately is a huge part of tech skill which the smashbox (and other analog to digital conversion controllers) does by default.

[@alextorres3948]

and occasionally being lucky/unlucky, plus jank, mis-inputs, reads etc...

[@NaJk93]

Nick Q People think that fighting sticks for Street fighter and other fighting games makes you more consistent. Yet people still play with regular xbox controllers and win. It's the way you play it. and how you use it. Not the controller.

[@johnsother2440]

if the smashbox becomes objectively superior to the gcn controller, than it should be banned, no question.

[@cheezycrayon17]

But then the problem occurs, what do people do if they spent time rebuilding muscle memory and now have to give it away? Do they quit smash, or spend time learning GC controller again thus possibly suffering worse tourney results?

[@Popkorn28]

If you get the smashbox I think that's a risk you have to be aware of

[@NaJk93]

Why?

[@danielakumi]

"locked behind a high price" It isn't mandatory

[@metacomet7297]

By that logic wouldn't you ban all controllers except the nintendo 3ds for smash 4 since all the other controllers are objectively superior to it?

[@mariotaz]

If Liffey can win SFIV on a PS1 controller, then this stick is fine.

[@Intothevoid-NIB]

You forgot that the Smash community likes to build a wall around their competitive scene and bans anything for making a slight change in the metagame

[@Valenvy]

Viewtiful Z uhh what in smash games has been banned that would change the meta game? (Excluding brawlmk and smashb0xx)

[@Riskofrain527]

@@Valenvy the smash community is easily the worst community.

[@Valenvy]

@@Riskofrain527 That doesn't answer my question in the slightest.

[@abel.6945]

If it's legal, then how would would be able to control recoveries that require specific directions. Like Shiek's up b and Fox's firefox?

[@thomasgibson8795]

LevelUpGaming yes I wondered the same, won't it prohibit angles?

[@manueladame1464]

LevelUpGaming Maybe pressing the buttons at the same time, like Up-Left or something similar

[@1uparcade33]

LevelUpGaming Button pressure maybe? Or how long after the initial button press you press the second one. I can see Pikachu and Greninja's recoveries becoming problems, though

[@RandomGuy-hb4ee]

LevelUpGaming Look at the SmashBox trailer

[@abel.6945]

Yeah I looked at the trailer, looks pretty difficult.

[@autobiographicalraps]

"third party controller" theres your answer.

[@autobiographicalraps]

Lincoln Nordquist yes i did lmao

[@MyKeal]

cool Wow you two sure are laughing a lot LOLLLLLLLLL

[@Questorium]

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Name one other competitive game that bans all third party controllers.

[@MyKeal]

Questorium OOOOO Good point

[@TheSuperdavet]

WELCOME TO THE LAUGH CONTEST IM LAUGING BECAUSE MY CAPS LOCK BROKEROLF LOL ROFL LOL JAJAJAJAJAJA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@RecordToDeathToBoredom]

I personally feel that MSC should be the law of smash or something. This guy would make great laws and he's a very flexible guy.

[@fade6827]

M2K should be lawmaker ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@sassyflygonthesecond4993]

RecordToDeath ICS would be banned

[@KeflAura]

Not everything needs laws

[@sprucetree7996]

are you reading from a script. You keep pausing after random words

[@zachariahjose5622]

it kinda adds emphasis Ya know?

[@sprucetree7996]

Zachariah Jose it just sounds different from his other videos

[@svenstormbeard]

im 2cool4you pretty sure he reads from a script in every single video lol

[@metacomet7297]

I think if anything, this is the only video where he DOESN'T have a script. The pauses would be him thinking, and in his normal videos there are no pauses because he is simply reading. Though if I had to bet I would say that he is using a script in this video just like all his others and this one is just edited less. Could be wrong though.

[@sprucetree7996]

Metacomet that makes sense. It's just different then normal

[@thau8316]

If smashbox is legal for smash 4, zero's prediction that ryu is the best character will be true

[@violethope02]

Justin Hazel except how do you do ryu's input attacks with smashbox? 🤔 we need a special smashbox for ryu when 20SF arrives

[@salmence100]

I honestly couldnt care less if the arbitrary rules ban the smashbox, I hope it gets funded so players can have fun with it casually

[@javierpinon9443]

I think it'll be the same thing as bidou. It's probably better, but most players have years upon years of experience and muscle memory with their controller and won't be willing to switch

[@CaptViewtiful98]

If it requires the same amount of time and patience as mastering the default controls or Bidou then I think it should be fine for tournament play.

[@thunderruler1999]

Seems to havea much higher learning curve. Just to get the different fire fox angles you need to learn and memorize so many different inputs.

[@DIVAD291]

still probably easier than actually doing those inputs on a controller.

[@thunderruler1999]

DIVAD291 firefox angles? Like putting your stick in the direction you want to go lol?

[@DIVAD291]

thunderruler1999 yeah because inputing an exact direction sure is easy.

[@thunderruler1999]

DIVAD291 you point the stick where you want to go? Yes its easy

[@Linkedchief]

(MY RAMBLE FROM ESAM'S VIDEO) Let's get this out of the way. The Smash community HATES any kind of change, once something becomes set or standard they don't won't to ever touch it again. (Things like bidou, 2 stock or 3, customs, stages, controllers, and to some extent wobbling). NOW, onto the Smash Box. This would be a very good thing for the Smash scene for various reasons. 1. LONGEVITY This product can keep Smash relevant and productive for a long time. The Game cube controller, while a nice controller for short durations and more "lax" games for the hands, is not ideal for fighting games (especially for a game where the hands have to do hundreds of inputs in about 10 seconds) and can cause severe hand problems (ex. M2K). And the GC controller is becoming limited in resources, there was the sudden increase in controllers due to Sm4sh but they're still limited. When an analog stick goes out, you're screwed, nothing you could do and have to buy a new GC controller as its hard to come by new or decent condition analog sticks. The Smash Box effectively nullifies both problems as they aren't nearly as taking on the hands (evident by how long the FGC has use arcade sticks and can keep playing with relatively no problem) and that all the buttons can easily be replaced with arcade standard buttons. (You can get a set of like 10 for about $6 and they last a good amount of years) 2. NEW PLAYERS Some people can't play Smash because of the GC controller and how it's set up, being used to arcades where there's a specific layout to buttons, where players could have a finger on almost every main button and can freely move around where on the GC they have to move their entire hand to make a couple inputs. With more controller options, opens up the door for more players to come in and play which could introduce new players to let's say top 36-top 8. 3. LEGALITY If the S-Box is just a GC controller but in a different format then what's the problem? If anything, veteran players would have to completely RELEARN how to play Smash because the controller is so radically different than what they used before. Like with bidou, you'd have to spend weeks to months retraining your hands and mind to reap a few more benefits than what the standard control schemes allows. If we allow mods on our controllers to make specific angles and inputs easier then why is this an issue, especially since the modifications on GameCube controllers don't require players to relearn how to play to get these benefits. 4. THE FGC Now this is more of a comparison with a community that spawned the Smash scene and how they handle controllers and modifications to said controllers. After tournaments started to revolve around home ports of fighting games, they have essentially allowed any and all types of controllers as long as there weren't any type of major mechanical modification (macros and so on). The most recent and we'll known is when Luffy won USF4 EVO 2014 with a PS1 controller. Smug which is considered to be the BEST Dudley player in USF4 with some of the most taxing and specific combos in the game uses an Xbox 360 pad, and while it is a good controller, it is not meant for fighting games as the D-pad is horrendous. Brolylegs (which actually played Melee and Brawl and was fairly decent at the game considering his disabilities) is the best USF4 Chun-Li and among the best in SFV Chuns and he uses his FACE and an extremely limited hand to play. Controllers have never been an issue with the standard FGC because they realize how important it is to have a diverse row of set ups and ways to play to keep the competitive scene relevant and varied, the winner (let alone top 6) of EVO or any other bigger competition is almost always different each year, while with Smash it seems to almost always be the same or relatively similar each year. That's most of my 2 cents, this ramble has been long enough and I just find that all this drama over a different way to play a game is dumb and excessive.

[@DUCKSWAYBOBWEAVE]

First off, the Smash Box uses buttons to move your character Vs. Arcade Stick, an actual a joy stick. It wouldn't translate say KOF or SF players into Smash. Primarily, games like Tekken or P4U series use 4-Button A B C D or 6-Button for tiered normals in SF for speed, damage or utility for motion special moves. The Smash Box is no where near an Arcade Stick, the bottom of your palms rest where the Smash Box places the ->C-Sticks "Buttons"Directional Pad "Buttons"

[@Linkedchief]

DuckSwayBobWeave That is true, originally Hit Boxes didn't have nearly as many buttons as the S-Box but it can still serve as a way to introduce new players into Smash that played fighting games on different controllers. (I know some people that use a computer keyboard to play Melee on Dolphin and they use a keyboard for other fighting games). All I'm trying to say is that the competitive Smash scene should allow this and potentially more controllers, if they aren't modded to hell to where you could click a button to pull of a full combo (kinda like in KOF 94 had for console ports).

[@DUCKSWAYBOBWEAVE]

LinkedChief My input had nothing to do with the legality of Smash Box; it was about the video comparing it to an Arcade Stick set up and concept. I replied to your comment to dodge the KZbin comment void. The console ports won't make it to competitive with the arcade set up, no tournament would allow anything for a 1-button combo.

[@XxXJOHNYB0YXxX]

LinkedChief you can literally buy analog sticks online and replace your old ones

[@Lvng_Kvlt]

LinkedChief we’ll you are being a bit unfair changing one thing in smash has a huge change that’s like casual players being mad at not having items in competitive you seem like someone who thinks poke floats and the fzero stage should be legal

[@pez1850]

I didnt even know it existed, but I'd legalize it

[@ygypt]

LEGALIZE IT

[@cometsdotcov]

My only gripe with this controller is that you're restricted to 45 degree angles for the analog stick. I secondary Luigi in PM and Melee so wavedashing further is a huge bonus. Shield Dropping will also be harder or impossible from what I've seen. Other than that, I don't see anything necessarily wrong with it. Really, the only thing it has going for it is the easier tech, but it also makes other tech less effective or impossible. To be completely honest, switching to the SmashBox won't be an upgrade. Just stick to the regular GameCube controller and it will be much easier in the long run.

[@cometsdotcov]

Mashing would also be near-impossible. Free pummels for days.

[@cometsdotcov]

Ah. I guess it just means that you need to work harder for certain functions in return for others being easier.

[@LRy314]

dude you can shield drop on a smashbox way easier than a gc controller just saying

[@LRy314]

***** I don't think EVERYONE has put notches in their controller. I know plenty of people who haven't done that or just don't know how so that's a very broad inaccurate statement.

[@LRy314]

***** Okay but that isn't everyone this still affects the large majority of players more than the pros.

[@ast8177]

ok lets see: "everything that changes the meta game to one dominating strategy gets banned" "I think it could push the meta to higher level and if there are enougth available for everyone...." You see the problem here?, right?

[@cenizen]

Andreas S. But it isn't dominating. There a strict learning curve with it. Recoveries that require precise angles can't be used to their full extent with the smash box.

[@ast8177]

But if it pushes the meta to a higher level it would mean that people who don't want to play with the box becaues they are used to GC-Controler or just don't want to afford a new controller for smash will have a disadvantage because they don't play it with this controler

[@jameschan8152]

Andreas S. only a few select people would be proficient with it at the start, and some movements are sometimes harder to pull off.

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

James Chan some of the over 200 fire fox angles are impossible this controller only getting slightly over fifty.

[@lovelyyolk9066]

We need to ban the original Gamecube Controller because i want to play with the DK Bongos, and every player with a GC controller keeps kicking my ass. That is how stupid you sound

[@D6...]

its like play on keyboard? (joke)

[@TheShangryLlamas]

it is techincally... you could space out your keyboard just like these buttons. they're all digital buttons.

[@Fin0fLenster]

You were kidding, but you're not really that far off. People who play fighting games on a keyboard are often recommended to take a look at the hitbox since they're fairly similar.

[@CBag23]

Fin0fLenster IMO I like using digital buttons, and using my right hand to control, even though I'm right handed

[@PengyDraws]

Actually, you're right.

[@meymeyman3127]

Yes

[@Mario1080p]

I never even heard of Smashbox until this video. It looks very interesting and I like to see it be legal.

[@nickmartini413]

"it sems to be a split between people who like it and people who dont and people who dont know" lol

[@Chmmr]

alright so a few issues with smashbox: - normally, you can do a tilt like a smash if you don't hit the joystick the whole way. is there a way to do that here? - also, RIP Fox, Falco, Shiek, Mewtwo, Ness, Lucas, Palutena and Zelda's recoveries, and to a lesser extent Pit and Dark Pit's.

[@sigzbro]

Nackles42 I'm assuming you haven't seen the demonstration video.

[@ubadman1]

rip zelda? shes been rip since 2001.

[@KenLaKen]

My only issue is that it's pretty much a keyboard with arcade cabinet buttons, and I'm pretty bad with both of those

[@NonJohns]

it only needs a bit of practice it was frustrating for me to learn tap jump off but I got used to it eventually

[@slightlobster46]

I've watched your videos for a while, and I was like "why didn't this show up in my sub box?" Then I realized I wasn't subbed to you then immediately subbed

[@Michael-gh8bt]

I got a free trial for youtube red and found i was subbed to KZbin red original or whatever they called it, I unsubbed because the trial ran out and I was mad it automatically subscribed me

[@emboulaloucheman6433]

this controler is limited because the d pad have only 8 direction and an example falco's up b have 12 direction

[@xkholla]

Schelson Pierre-louis You could easily input a button combo for the same directions I'd imagine. Like down back or down forward could make a character crouch walk for example.

[@arbi9506]

I literally was focusing more on the smash 4 footage than the actual video. "THAT'S STILL NOT KILLING WHAT"

[@melzoa]

Looking back at this, this is just playing smash with a keyboard

[@danielp2402]

A problem for melee is that the Smashbox allows you to do far apart and precise analog inputs with a speed that is near physically impossible while moving a joystick with your fingers. The biggest issue with this is that with practice, near-frame perfect SDI can become relatively consistent, without any risk of attempting it. The combo-heavy melee that we love could face a serious threat.

[@Nintega2K]

Is there any chance you could do more countdown videos, as well as matchup guides?

[@mct_3551]

it should be legal. not only is it more difficult to learn, there's tech that cannot be done as easily or at all with smash box

[@KyletheReflectionist]

I'm still waiting for the day where someone finds a way to play on the DDR: Mario Mix dance pad...

[@q295]

Ha....ha...ha HAAAAAA HA HAAAAAAA

[@q295]

You fool

[@q295]

MORTAL

[@turbo_jake]

The Gucci smart toilet is clearly the superior control scheme.

[@TaberIV]

I think I would hate this controller lol, I don't have a problem with it though

[@viken_lidaen]

From somebody who interacts in the standard FGC and the Smash community I personally believe the Smashbox should be absolutely legal. In the FGC some really good players use pads instead of arcade sticks and it will most likely be the same situation. Controls don't stop a player from being good and that has held true to the test of time for the past six years since SF:IV came out.

[@G.M.M.]

My main problem with this has been the potential for other controller mods. The smashbox changes the analog inputs of movement and shield to digital inputs. People have argued that if the smashbox is allowed to do it, why not gamecube controllers? It opens the door to buttons that give the perfect angles for shield drops, perfect angles to get out of marth's chain grab as fox in Melee, etc. At this point it's not just making techs easier while making normal movement harder, this just makes hard techs easier without any downside. I've seen some points against this and they just don't seem to work well. 1. Only have analog movement or digital movement; can't mix both options. That still opens up the option of putting a shield drop angle onto the analog L or R Trigger. 2. Let the smashbox be legal and ban other controller mods. There's not enough reasoning to just allow the smashbox to be legal and nothing else. Does the smashbox get a pass just because it's being sold like a third party controller? What if I make my own smashbox, is that not allowed because I made it and not them? You could argue it wouldn't be allowed because mine might have different angle modifiers to do harder techs, but it's not like the smashbox is doing anything different. There's no standard for digital angle modifiers, so why would one be allowed and not the other? There has to be a better way to do this without having the community pick and choose what should and shouldn't be legal. I would like the idea of this controller much more if controller modding wasn't surrounding it. In Melee especially, the idea of seeing people do crazy movements on the same controller you use is inspiring. Making it so that the pro's controller is at not just a physical advantage, but a technical advantage, would hurt that.

[@OGEdger]

...but Smashbox is not a mod.

[@JustinBA007]

It really won't effect controller mods, because once it's crowdfunded, they will be full, 3rd party controllers and not mods. Only the prototypes are technically "Mods."

[@TylerPKegger]

Why are Wii U gamepads illegal to use in tournament?

[@jimmymcsweeney]

There a bitch to set up.

[@Fin0fLenster]

Wireless is kind of a hassle with so many signals and so much potential interference going on in a relatively small space.

[@1on95]

Tyler Kegger Because you can only connect one GamePad to one Wii U, which means that a GamePad player can't play against another GamePad player.

[@zonink4601]

Tyler Kegger They may not be very popular. But if splatoon at smash tournaments has told us anything. Gamepads have terrible interference with other game pads. Which is a horrible problem.

[@advveo]

@Fin0fLenster it's more because of the fact that you can only have one gamepad user per setup. wireless signals aren't really a problem; i've used my pro controller at a major and didnt have any interference.

[@orngjce223]

"Could also raise the price wall for new players who want to get into competitive" Look, people wanting to get into Melee already have to acquire a GC controller and a purple lunchbox, and they're not cheap already. Arguably the Smashbox has the advantage here due to being far easier to copy. (Fight sticks are simple to assemble from easily replaceable off the shelf parts. At worst you would have to replace the innards with an Arduino to get it to output Gamecube formatted control information.)

[@PrezVV]

On all of these issues, fighting games don't have this issue in tournaments. Smash really does get babied by the babies who play it, jeez.

[@Intothevoid-NIB]

True, but you forgot that the majority of Smash players like to bitch about anything that could possibly change the meta of a game that's had the same meta for 5 years and the same 5 people winning anything that matters anyways

[@aliendude99]

Being an active smash bros player, and watching a ton of tournaments. I learn much more about Smash bros everyday. But I have never heard of this Smashbox. Thanks for putting it out there!

[@skullo5557]

Gravy sucked with it in tournament

[@MrBroken030]

I see smash as a sport and i sure cant bring my cricket bat to a baseball game. Its about the integrity of the sport, dont get fooled by those hitbox people trying to bamboozle people into buying this product. No trainingwheels, this is a real bicycle race! The smashbox shouldnt be allowed, mastering the gc controller with its analog controls is part of the game. On smashbox there is no way to fail pivots or shielddrops, you cant overshoot any analog areas. We shouldnt open the pandoras box of crazy mods cause it will lead to an arms race of players. It will be no longer just about the execution and the skill of a player it will be also about the peripheral he uses and what features it has to make him even better. 6:50 Ban modded gc controllers, to enforce it just check your opponents controller for any modifications and call the staff if you are finding any "cheat" notches or extra buttons.

[@tonybamanabonitomatopowers6057]

The hitbox is fantastic for fighting games so i hope the smashbox is also good.

[@speyroo]

In fencing, the fencers can choose how easily their blade bend to fit their play style. If they want to touch their opponent on the back they choose a blade that bend easily so it make it like a whip. On the opposite side, they choose a blade that almost cannot bend to make it more difficult to their opponent to touch them when they parry their attacks. I think the smash community could choose which controller fit their playstyle the best like the fencers.

[@ponyo3607]

Who is your main ?

[@squidysquid1078]

_ pOnyO Corrin

[@diegolol8523]

pacman

[@rotalsh]

marth

[@maximus4680]

wario

[@sassyflygonthesecond4993]

hello ponyo

[@CursedWulfGaming]

I agree with Blur on thia. The problem is that this has extra buttons, analogue to digital conversion and button remapping. These are all mods that this controller has which aren't allowed on modded GameCube controllers which is unfair. If they do then legalise that stuff the smashbox will be irrelevant as you can make way better modded GameCube controllers and smash turns into a controller making tournament.

[@orangesaregood1568]

I am anti-smash box, here is why. The box isn't a problem, but if it is legal than all analog to digital mods must be allowed as well. So someone could have a normal controller, but it has a button that desyncs the ice climbers, that is an extremely difficult analog impute that becomes a button. And there are many other things like a desync button that many will abuse if smash box is legal.

[@marioisawesome8218]

Riverdog Plays BTD That's called a macro, and those aren't allowed.

[@orangesaregood1568]

Isn't a macro more than one impute mapped to one button?

[@orangesaregood1568]

I've climbers desync isn't a macro, literally just one analog impute. If you can hit a specific part the controller than popo will jump but nana won't. That is a single analog desync which would be easier with analog to digital conversions, like the smash box.

[@that1valentian769]

I disagree. The game cube is the ONLY option to play melee and many people don't like the controller for its weirdness (it's trigger buttons are asymmetrical, some buttons click and others press in silently) and for peeps who try smash from MARVEL v. CAPCOM, Street Fighter, or others might have an easier time transitioning. Any added benefits are very minute.

[@p1ay6ack]

slippery slope

[@TunaDMoney]

as long as it doesnt have tech exclusive to it like the hitbox does in Tekken I believe it should be legal. their are tons of different controllers used in other games outside of smash from fightsticks, to standard controllers, to pads etc. if people are willing to pay the money to get a controller they feel will suit their needs better they should be allowed to use it.

[@atari_hmb]

Doesn't matter I'll still body people with Good ol game cube.

[@LckeStudios]

Sure, make it legal. Not as if it can stand up to my Chainsaw controller anyway.

[@BlurbyDestroyerOfWorlds]

There is nothing to ban here. Just watch gravy at Don't park on the grass.

[@Kaaruma]

I think it should be because it does not add any new macros or controls rather just changes the ones already Available to players

[@Glace077]

all you need for trash is the shield and grab buttons anyway lol

[@stallionsLP]

No matter if it's good or bad to allow it to be legal, one thing is for certain: Hopefully those who make the final call make the right decision. Mainly because of the unfortunate truth that once something is banned, it pretty much stays banned forever even across future titles, and it's almost impossible to ever remove a ban once it is in place because people will never dare question it due to being scared of how others will react to it, or just because the TOs and those up top want to keep things the same because "tradition" or whatever. Just remember, it was a miracle that Meta Knight even got considered for removing the ban on them, let alone actually doing it. Which is why I feel we need to finally deal with this whole "banning it the second it shows, offers or presents something that could either potentially be a problem or is something the TOs don't like" issue before we end up with only 2 stages or something even sillier because of Japanese rules or whatever.

[@dankayur2910]

With dirrectional buttons instead of sticks, it is now possible to press right while holding left, for example. This is a change to what inputs are available and has, for such reason, resulted in similar (albeit homemade) fightsticks being banned from Melee in the past. I'm not informed enough to know what tech this would actually affect (out of shield options maybe?) but, if it warranted a ban once, it probably still does.

[@ApexGale]

thing is it would confuse members of the fgc that are already used to gc controller for Smash and sticks for 2d fighters. inputs would be confusing because the layouts are not the same. I'd stick to the controller.

[@mechtist]

My small opinion on checking the mods of controllers: no need to check everyone's. It doesn't matter if they cheated if they lose. Check those that get into top 8 or top 16 or top 32. If it so happens that they were cheating, DQ them and replay the matches that would have been affected as if their opponents had won. This, or something similar, needs to come to fruition regardless of whether or not the Smash Box is widely legalized. These types of mods are still possible on the GC controller and shouldn't be ignored.

[@gamehero4964]

it's like the arcade stick and controller debate like he said maybe people who want to play smash use an arcade stick in other fighting games so it would be easy on them but this is my opinion

[@jaydengipson9929]

I think it should be legal. People say it's unfair for smashbox users to be able to do advanced tech, but nothing is stopping those complaining from using the box either. If thats the reason, then we need to ban custom controls as well

[@jaydengipson9929]

I see what i said pertains more so to smash 4 when i talked about custom controls, but I think my argument still goes for melee as well. just wanted to say that before someone calls me an idiot and skims over what i said just because i didnt go into that much detail about what i ment

[@furyberserk]

I've been out of the smash scene for a while now after learning about bidou and stuff. I think it should be legal. If bidou is allowed, then smashbox should too. That simple. The argument can be controllers, and if so, then you are just eliminating your competition and not allowing a tourney based on skill but rather on even ground. You might as well compare Gimpyfish playing bowser vs Silentwolf playing fox in 2008 or something and say it's unfair that fox is allowed to do all of his techs or any of the ness jackets. Smash, much more than any other competitive fighting game out there is more about calculating predictions, effective counters and most importantly mindgames than any other, especially execution. You can't limit the player base because you think planking should be banned from usf4 when everyone can use it, as much as saying using a joystick is mandatory when many others may use controllers. There is a lot that goes into smash besides the controller and using that as an excuse to demonize or banish an idea that could be legitimate to the meta, like bidou did, seems like an unsportsmanlike tactic to confirm. Smash above all other games has been about dealing with the shit placed in front of you. That's what Taj did and he did it well. Not to mention Armada's US debut was hype. But that's just me. Some old forgotten player from the cube era.

[@SlyRocko]

I honestly see it as an introduction peripheral for other fighting game players to get into Smash. In tournaments it should be fine but this is essentially trading movement capabilities for a more consistent method to perform very challenging moves. This might also get a completely different tier list because of the absence of easy diagonal movement and other things.

[@Jevmin]

hey msc, I found an infinite combo attack for bowser. it requires a good amount of skill and needs to be in an area where the ceiling is close to the floor, but it is really good. you have to use the attack that makes bowser grab an enemy and body slam the enemy, breathe fire on it, then do the same move that started it and keep going in the same order. The best map I found for it is the cave map.

[@seovania9601]

I just love his "with that said" at the end, it's like a trademark !

[@twistedvtuber9894]

well, as someone who plays more than just smash, I have seen hitboxes used left and right, and the same argument is made for controller vs arcade stick. honestly, it doesn't end up meaning much in the end. the more skilled player always wins in the end

[@UnknownFortune]

My issue with it is my same issue with Bidou. You have to erase years of muscle memory that you've been practicing for so long. It will mostly benefit new players because they have no prior experience with Melee. It's hard for the OG players like Armada and M2K to adjust to these controls if this becomes the best way to play.

[@corn5749]

Either way, it would only be in Melee. Nintendo would most likely continue to produce GameCube controllers with every new Smash game. Casuals who become competitive will have a harder time transitioning in Smash 4/5

[@ssbuterbal]

honestly its like changing your controls( for example changing z to jump) to make it easier to do c stick aerials.

[@arkelon]

I think the biggest concern is SDI, along with the whole "slippery slope argument". I mean, I think pivots being much more consistent definitely does not have a necessarily negative impact, but SDI that lets people get out of stuff that's currently considered guaranteed... I don't know if that's a good thing.

[@stefanandreasson6408]

as some one who mainly plays pc, for me to play with the smahbox is was easier to transition to

[@fisherdotogg]

The one thing I notice about Smashbox given that it doesn't have an analogue stick... You won't be able to walk with it, all your movements will be dashes provided they're on the ground.

[@LudusMachinae]

I agree with the argument that we need to create a philosophy and stick with it in order to make it easier to decide legality on the fly later, and I haven't seen anyone be directly against the smash box, just the "pandoras box" it could potentially open up and so I have a solution to said problems. if you wish to allow some analog to button inputs like how the smash box does. then the rule should be only one equivalent of one joystick for movement, along with resistors, then normal Gamecube is fine along with the notches to help with the angles, and the smash box is fine because there's only one equivalent to the joystick and the other buttons just resist the inputs to create certain angles, just like notches. This also eliminates the problem that some people will try and use things like buttons that just input perfect angles for you instead, like a button that immediately gives you the ice climbers desync 181 degree angle, or a button that immediately inputs the perfect angle for a shield drop, or even just a button that gives you no movement, because then they could technically get said inputs in two situations, the button they press, and the buttons/stick they use for other movements. this is different from the smash box because the button that allows for the shield drop doesn't do the actual shield dropping, it just makes that input more accessible just like the notches on a Gamecube controller. also if you want button remapping to be legal but not macros because they are fairly similar then the rule should be you still must execute the inputs yourself in order for it to be legal, so then macros are illegal because it's doing the sequence of buttons for you, but doing things like switching A and B inputs can be legal because you're still performing the tech just in a different way.

[@FukU2222]

Very well constructed thoughts, another thing I think is that the switch for the D-pad should be re-configured to a more accessible spot on the fly to keep things a little salty still, ahaha.....

[@hoomerchevy5351]

We're never hearing about the Smashbox again, it'll be forgot in a week

[@ezgib421]

Okay so i know that the reason that regular sticks dont work for smash is because the stick basically has 100 percent input, causing you to not be able to walk and whatnot... but is there no way to make a joystick with similar mechanics to like a gamecube controller, while still having arcade buttons? that would be amazing

[@Tommeroth]

Off subject, but who was playing in that Wario Vs. ZSS match? it was a really intense game.

[@themessbox1533]

If this any controler becomes tourney legal , i'm going to EVO with my power glove , Hackerman style

[@frankbauerful]

At other fighting game events such as for Street Fighter, everybody shows up with a controller from a different brand, some use sticks, others use pads. The sticks are usually trivial to rewire internally to whatever button scheme you want and restrictor plates that add different rest positions to the stick are standard parts. There's a rule against macros but that's it. TOs and players alike don't have a problem with that.

[@dankayur2910]

Also, why are we going to such crazy lengths and still using two jump buttons instead of a jump and a short hop?

[@MarlowPreston]

You should have also talked about the videos Black Hombre (the guy who was already playing with a fighting stick) did about this, it was fairly in depth as well.

[@AENock]

If it turns out a fightstick is pretty good, companies like Qanba, Hori, Mayflash, Brook, etc will jump on board. There just has to be a market for it. Personally I think a lever is better than buttons, so I am excited to see what else is being developed. I really do wish fightsticks and hitboxes would catch on in Smash, they are infinitely more customizable and comfortable than a gc controller.

[@TheRealSonganfan]

I like your supply point. I didn't really consider it but if the supply of smash boxes can meet the demand, I see no reason to ban the controller option.

[@Fireblaze3127]

I think it should be legal, my own issue with it is that if the motto is to have a Gamecube controller just flattened out, the L button should be on the left side with the analog (now digital) inputs. Although what has been released so far is only a prototype technically. I think we should definitely have a ruleset for illegal mods such as macros, extra buttons, etc. In a tournament setting, let's face it TOs can't check every player's controller, it should just be that if someone is caught with an illegal controller it results in an instant disqualification. I mean if someone is in top 8 we can have TOs check the controllers before it starts and if they're caught it's immediate disqualification; end of story. Even if someone hides the fact that one of their buttons is a macro, this isn't a Smashbox issue anymore, this is just a general someone is cheating issue that goes beyond Smashbox's legality

[@neph312]

I'd like to keep my joysticks, please.

[@EnricosUtLP]

ikr

[@DimzNoms]

Well no one is taking it away from you. They're just adding other options.

[@Kdkjdjewerdnxa]

Dimz Noms they are because it puts everyone who plays the game with the input method the game is designed around at a severe disadvantage

[@Augmental_Art]

Ryan if that's your argument then no one should be allowed to augment their controller map because it gives. them diffrent options than other people

[@gdintroraven2783]

You should make a tutorial on how to wobble with the ice climbers. I know it's going off the chart as switching to super smash four to super smash melee/brawl but I think a lot of people will appreciate your detailed tutorials. Thanks

[@nycsoul17]

There's a video by a KZbinr named TheBlackHombre that I think is really good. It gets into a lot more of the technical side of things.

[@solo_mander]

the issue isn't supply it's more considering that if two evenly matched players, one with GameCube and one the Smashbox, face each other, the controller may be the winning factor just because it's easier to do complicated tech with. but this shouldn't be true because most people find the GameCube controller easier to work with rather than the Wii mote, but because the GC controller seems standard it's not banned. if we can make the Smashbox standard, it won't cause issues because it is not doing the inputs for the player, the player must still be skilled. after it becomes standard, then supply may be a factor.

[@tristandalton92]

the cost is one of the biggest issues. If this does catch on and it does become a problem where players do not like the smash box because it is unfair, you have to remove a player base of people already used to the smash box. Even more important, if it becomes accepted, new players will see that the optimal set up is a *very* expensive controller. Our community's greatest appeal was always that it was personal and grassroots, that it is an old game easy to play with a passionate community united in the same way.

[@eviljigglypuff2329]

Just a new way to play the same game. Some people dropping $300 plus on custom modded controllers anyway so I don’t see why not.

[@Tobaganner]

I would rather use something like a mechanical keyboard because the keys dont activate at the bottom of the keypress, the keys usually last longer, it has more buttons, and it can be used for a larger variety of games/consoles

[@mct_3551]

"Hey it's your birthday" "Yeah" "Why didn't you ask for anything" "Don't want anything."