Mythic Plus is Pissing Me Off

[@CharlieVictor212]

Never invite a pug Aug evoker.

[@tonyr6180]

Amen.

[@mattjoo]

I’m sure this runs along the line of someone saying “boosted”

[@Christophersaurus]

What is the lore behind this? Do people just go aug for fotm and suck? I was pres til 2720 then had to switch to aug to keep climbing but I’ve been doing 12s way easier as aug

[@kel1770]

​@@Christophersaurussame lore as never invite a ret, or never invite a hunter, or never invite people from these realms. People just have a few bad experiences and extrapolate a pattern that doesnt exist, then socially reinforce eachother's beliefs

[@sgtjonmcc]

​@Christophersaurus they do it because they think it's easy and see high key pushers running Augs frequently.

[@danoizedafunk753]

Bro that feeling of knowing you’re guid mates are gonna brick your key lol every night

[@thecatalytic]

I was already not a fan of depletion but I never considered how AWFUL it is for the people actually using their own keys. I mainly play healer so I can get into groups pretty reliably, but I've heard horror stories of DPS waiting HOURS just to get into one key. The only real way some "undesirable" specs can get groups for keys IS to use their own and they are just getting punished for it more than the applicants.

[@waffles3782]

I've only ever gotten groups as dps if it's my own key. At high levels, roll a shit key that week, have it depleted, often due to tank quitting, or skip a week and I just stop playing for rest of the phase.

[@KNByam]

I never use my own key. The last time I did was halfway through Dragonflight and only because a guildy needed some gear.

[@antonego9581]

the other days i had a NW at +9. 4 pugs in a a row flamed out, one the healer was totally useless and left in the middle of the first boss. one we wiped twice on stichflesh because the same shaman missed every hook. one the tank pulled way too much first pull and left immediately after wiping. one we wiped on 2nd boss and tank left. it got down to a +4 until i finally got a decent group and we easily +2'd it. im not some amazing player but i know the mechanics and pull around a million dps overall, its insanely frustrating to be totally at the mercy of other players who don't know what to do or just do dumb stuff and leave

[@KOHoxton]

Account suspensions for bricking keys, solved.

[@KNByam]

@KOHoxton That's too extreme. A nice long timeout, short of suspension. Let's say, 1hr.

[@Kazemarue]

I love a good rage vod. gets the blood flowing and makes me wanna q up some more m+

[@天使霜]

??? "Hearing how bad m+ is makes me want to punish myself!" Now im starting to understand m+ mentality...

[@In_Dog_We_Trust]

Absolutely nailed with "You dont want your guildmates to see you running mythic + cause they'll brick your key"

[@robertlyall]

As someone who has thoroughly enjoyed M+ at a somewhat reasonable level for the past couple of expansions, I'm completely done with it this season.

[@realBarny]

Do you not like your champion gear 1/8, clearly the game is just not for you.

[@Malikron]

@@realBarnyyou say that like an insult, but you’re right- when the game stops feeling fun for people, they won’t play it. And when enough people stop playing it, your experience will start to become affected.

[@MostlyFish21]

yeah I stopped playing after 2k rating this season sucks. I read somewhere that maybe only 20% of the player base even reached 2k maybe lower

[@goondawg420-fp5nx]

@@realBarny you're my little guy grinding 636 gear for 9's hahaha fr what a dumbass comment though linking ilvl like it has anything to do with the convo idiot

[@EmoDragracer]

My thing has always been, there are two camps of people. There are the folks (like me) who LOVE the thrill of timing a key and the pressure of a ticking clock. And there are people who just want to play the game because M+ is fun at its core. So why not have it like this; when you go to put your key in you select "Timed" or "Normal". A normal run you can take 7 hours to complete if you want and you get two pieces of gear for the group and the crests and stones you would normally get. A timed run you get three pieces of gear and maybe 10 more crests and some extra stones. People can gear up and upgrade without the INSANE pressure and getting denied because of their spec. Sometimes you just want to play the game like your mortgage isn't on the line :D Also; got a sub from me man. Solid video.

[@gohomehero]

They just need to add a survival map like vermintide/darktide. Run to the end and combat random encounters. Would be fun af.

[@sageen]

Playing healer/tank, fckin hate the people in m+ so toxic it make me wanna delete wow like 80% of the time

[@philmehrart]

AGREE. I'm trying to learn and just a n00b, running 3s and 4s rn. People have to remember its a feckin game and you're here to have fun, crazy concept

[@rafaellontra2189]

@@philmehrart the more you play WoW the more you get used to not having fun

[@KNByam]

I play a resto shaman. I got cursed out a few times. I made it to 2k rating for the mount, then I decided to take a break. I'm thick skinned but it became too much to deal with.

[@SuperBybis]

So why u dont uninstall i did and started playing singleplayer games and let me tell u life is good

[@Dated420]

i deleted wow after tanking for 12+ years. Tired of people who got no clue what they're talking.

[@SYL3NZR]

key depletion needs to exist to stop "people" from progressing things by just banging their head into a wall - but i also think over 10s keys should only deplete to your lowest key done +1, so if you did all 11s, it can't go below 12, because in those keys you're not doing meaningful progression anymore in terms of rewards, before 10s depletion must stay - quite frankly if you're "stuck" in under 10s that's a choice

[@deseanroot75]

An actual good take.

[@Sanrilas]

that wont work atall, cuz the "people" u mean will just bang there head against 10 till they find a group that carrys them with luck, and then they bang on the 11, they will worm there way into ur groups it just might take a bit longer

[@oshwash1993]

I think that’s a good idea, but I don’t think depletion should be based around what you’ve already timed. I would like to see no depletion under 10, so low keys never deplete, and high kegs never deplete lower than 10. That would make it a lot easier to keep rewards at your level through the vault without having to waste as much time to get your key back up giving rewards that aren’t good for you.

[@rfo98b]

What's wrong with people banging their heads against a wall? Lots of other aspects of wow let's you do it, it's not like you will accidentally just stumble into rank 1 IO suddenly, you still have to actually complete the key within time, but progressing it will respect your time a lot more.

[@Garounn]

Main tank, 3k+ player TWW S1 here, been doing a lot of season before, running high keys, only PUG. This has never been as frustrating as it is. In Europe servers right now there are like 10 x 14 keys available on PUG research. The gap between 11 and 12 is way too brutal for a lof of peoples, turning random mecanics into deadly ones. And I'm really okay and I enjoy the difficulty, but hopefully I play tank and can easily join keys, so after some fails I learn the different traps and avoid them. Mythic plus is all about knowledge, how are dps supposed to learn anything when they can only run 2 keys a day because they can't join, or have to push their own key to have a chance to try running a 12+ that will mostly deplete quick and party will leave before they have the ability to learn the dungeon. I'd like a system where you start with all dungeon 0, then you time one +2, unlock free and unlimited access to +3 for that dungeon. You time it +11, unlock free and unlimited access to +12 for that dungeon. Without any key, just by choosing the level in a list like in delves. In my opinion that would force peoples to play every level and learn.

[@oshwash1993]

I mostly agree, but I just started timing 12s with pugs as 622 ilvl dps, and I don’t think the jump was that brutal post nerf. Yeah the mechs are punishing, but you should really be able to expect people know how to avoid the mechs by the time you get to +12 lol. Dps has plenty of opportunity to learn up until then, but i think part of the problem is people expect to just steamroll or get carried through the content they should be learning the mechanics in. Yours would be a nice solution, though. I don’t run my own keys, so I don’t really worry about depletion. I just say “gg sorry for your key” and on to the next lol

[@Sanrilas]

That only works with Solo Content, asson as ppl can get carried they will, and not learn a singel thing and still brick it for the rest

[@Garounn]

@@oshwash1993 Yeah I can relate, I don't have issues to join keys so I'm not complaining. But from what I've seen like guildies playing not meta classes as DPS, with high ilvl, having every 11 keys timed on +2, tagging 12 keys all day to enter 2 or 3 keys, because peoples are too afraid of depleting and only take the meta classes, it looks really frustrating

[@Garounn]

@@Sanrilas Yeah but if you had the opportunity to roll the key without deplete you could cherry pick the mates doing great, thanks and remove the failers, find others PUGS to replace and go again instead of having to farm again and again that key already have runned 10th of times. Peoples wanting to progress could have another chance on that key.

[@ItsJessdMe]

Depletion needs to happen to keep keys low. If keys never deplete then there won’t be any low keys for people to learn in.

[@Nhouyengah]

People are doing +10 without knowing the mechs due to how the scaling works

[@FrÔstytips-u7i]

words of gold brother

[@entylsa]

Downgrading of key made sense when you couldnt do it via the Panda lady, but now its realy not reasonable anymore, and I say set while never playing my own key.

[@NoobTX]

I have a solution why does keys still exist when the delve tier system exist simply make a tier list dmg where you can choose the tier before entering instead of keys

[@johannilsson6395]

Yes. This.

[@coriebaker30]

I just got KSM on my dps (Hunter / BM Spec) and it took me so many failed keys to complete 1 key, I did this all via pug groups, it rough out here! I do as though feel M+ is super over tuned. I am not going to try for 2K+ on a tank, but I refuse to heal, I have seen what healers are going through and I don't think I could handle it. I do feel as though, Blizz is killing M+ to a degree. I hate when I go into a 7 Key and people make 13 Key pulls and play the same style, but what they fail to understand is a 7 is not played like a 13, I laugh.

[@joeblack2809]

Haven’t had a chance to play M+ in TWW yet, played a bit in BF, but did most of M+ runs during SL. And I can confidently say that used to be the reason why I couldn’t progress higher with some of my alt accounts because the tank would always pull too big like he would on his main and wipe the group. Then flame us and leave

[@AnaBolaCaspao]

I've said this before and I still stand by it, a key should not deplete in the first 5 - 10 mins of the dungeon. Vast majority of wipes happen in this time range and it would solve this issue in the middlegound. *To clarify, I'm now a healer main, so I get insta queue and got no skin in the game, just feel kinda bad for dps and their keys getting depleted with instant disbands. With Pugs this system is very punishing ^^

[@Shishakind86]

I'd also rather have keys not being depleted but some measures would have to be taken for that to actually work. For one, group forming for lower keys has to be secured, especially when it's some time into the season. No one wants to search for players for an hour for a +2 just because it's late season and there's no one around anymore. Suggestion: have lower keys reward more crests depending on how high your score / timed keys are (makes total sense when you consider the cost of 90 crests for 15 of the next tier) so that players will still join those groups as long as they aren't yet fully geared in Hero and Mythic track gear. And then you'd have to think about if keys will still be a thing or not or if you can just select a dungeon depending on what level you've already timed it. If the latter is the case, imagine everyone running that one easy dungeon 8 times per week for easier Vault fill. This would create a disbalance of how often certain dungeons are played / are available in group finder which can't be Blizzards intention. Also it makes it harder for people who go for a certain gear piece if that dungeon is "unpopular". Of course, the first solution would be better dungeon tuning but we all know how that has worked out so far. And given the Ara-Kara example in the video: I don't think no key depletion would stop people from leaving early but rather encourage them doing so. People would leave a key even faster out of every single little mistake because "hey, it's not like it's getting depleted anyway" just for the off-chance that timing it isn't possible anymore. Certainly, there are a lot of other things we are missing when thinking about no key depletion. It has a lot of potential side-effects that could make M+ feel bad or worse for reasons we couldn't think of ahead. It's true however that Blizz should really think about how M+ as a whole can be restructured and made better, given how many people feel dissatified with the current state.

[@Reps1991]

There is a reason most DPS wait Hours if even get invited to a grp. If you got depletion, people try to not gonna risk it and invite only people with high/higher xp /Meta specs. Idk why this is a thing

[@theannoyedfiremage8721]

This was EXACTLY my experience in Dragonflight. I have not done a M+ since. I don't have people I can rely on to group with. My guild only really logs in for casual day-to-day "chore" activities they break into very small and short sessions throughout the week and two raid nights, each of which are scheduled for 2 hours due to our varying time constraints. I CANNOT rely on pugs to do group content. I am not going to abandon my friends, guildmates I've been with since BURNING FREAKING CRUSADE to join another guild *just* to do M+ content. Key depletion is a stupid mechanic and I will NEVER step foot in another M+ so long as this continues.

[@mattjoo]

💯

[@seekittycat]

I'm on a similar position though I ended up joining a M+ guild and just try to hang out with my friends on discord. I just didn't see any other option I just don't got the time to wait.

[@prosansmeta8662]

Absolutely agree. Key depletion and a lack of dinar system (eventual guaranteed loot) for M+ is why I have unsubbed from WoW. It is not fun that in M+ there may be 20+ trinkets to chance-roll within just THREE great vault slots EACH WEEK and that week after week we may not see anything we want/need.

[@gregquinn642]

If there weren't any negative repercussions from a failed run, people would just bail and reset at the first sign of a problem.

[@maksym_skliarov]

They're doing it anyway, to be fair. Except everyone's getting mad in the process, and only the host gets punished by getting the key bricked, regardless of whether it was their fault or not.

[@AmandaPelland]

We can all relate with you DoubleD! I play resto shaman and I make a point that I've been playing resto shaman way before the war within xpac ☺, and it's not flavor of month spec. It's embarrassing how many resto shamans I hear about that brick keys. I love your take on Mythic +. I had such a good laugh because we can relate!!

[@joehudson7007]

They need to rework the key system. 2 main goals they need to achieve: 1. Force people to do lower key levels once 2. Remove the pain of degradation How do we acheive this? Keys no longer have levels associated with them, and players must beat a key level to even have the option to do the next, and when you use a key for a dungeon, you select the level you're doing it at, and all players in the party must have that level unlocked to do it. Maybe allow jumping 2 levels for clearing fast enough. And you may ask, why do people need to be forced to do lower level keys? So newcomers ease themself and learn instead of jumping into the deep end. To prevent someone who has never done M+ to jump immediately into a +12 and brick a key despite miraculously having ilvl for it. I know IO score still would be a factor to prevent it currently. The only thing I'm uncertain of is if it should be a global seasonal level cap, or a individual dungeon level cap.

[@ProblemOfficer3000]

I did City of Threads 9, three times yesterday only for the pug idiots to leave after dying to an avoidable boss mechanic or not helping the healer escape the avoidable boss mechanic

[@marcpaulus6291]

For people like me and my friends who do M+ for the +8 crests and the Mythic track gear / Portals the most anoying thing with depletion is that you waste time. If you have an 8 and you deplete it you only get 5 crests and are back to 7. Now you have to run the 7 to get back to 8 but you dont need the loot, you dont need the crest on 7, you just spend 30 minutes to get the stone back to 8. If you have only an hour to play you just spend this hour to get 5 crests... Why? If you play a 10 you get a mythic track vault place, no matter if you time it or not. At least give us 10 crests when we deplete a key.

[@oshwash1993]

That would encourage people to stick with keys more too. There shouldn’t be multiple punishments for not timing on top of the wasted time. It feels so bad.

[@filipfenix]

Back in legion, your key was perma depleted and trashed and u had to start from 0. That was the good 'ol days

[@justin5002]

That was when we had multiple chests depending on the timing of the run I believe.

[@CsStoker]

@@justin5002 And 5 max level items in the weekly chest plus 1 item for each member of the group in +15 and more

[@justin5002]

@@CsStoker thanks for the confirmation, I’m a bit fuzzy about legion.

[@CsStoker]

@@justin5002 Not only that, the items at the end of the dungeon were upgrades since the ilvl was equal to the current raid tiers, and there was also the chance of titanforged gear

[@jonathan13co]

Titanforging f***ing sucked, and m+ rewards never matched mythic raid gear in legion and early bfa. It was capped at +10. @@CsStoker

[@Hellolibris]

Treating every key like it is the MDI bricks so many keys.

[@abadi173]

a really good point , if a you fail a key it should not go down a level

[@Coldkil666]

I never use my own keys because it's just faster to apply for a thousand groups. My major gripe is that since i pug 99% of the time, all the time spent in a dungeon most of the times is just wasted because if it's not timed someone leaves and you get literally nothing out of it. Count 20ish mins to get a group, 15ish for a run, you just wasted half an hour (if it's good) for nothing. Counting i can play for like 2 hours and a half, it means that i can easily get 1 or zero shit done so it gets tiring very fast. TWW just made it more prominent, it's been like this forever and apparently "no one" cared. Maybe because it was way easier before, and now most people are having a bad time.

[@wdf70]

Many of the frustrations of M+ could be alleviated if they just removed the timer. There's already mechanics in place that keep track of how long an encounter is running (It affects enrage times) Kill a boss quickly, boom you get a better key. You're now rewarded for the boss kill instead of racing against trash mobs.

[@scniccawhois]

funniest shit ive seen this morning. thank you

[@Mermma]

Get angrier. Not enough angry

[@quenguin2178]

I have always felt M+ isn't really designed to be Pugged. I mean, you can PUG it if you want but it seems designed for a group of 5 "budz" to do some harder dungeons. When you PUG people, you don't know anything about them, their playstyle, boosted or not

[@kevinc8955]

Retail is largely played by a bunch of older millenials and young gen Xers. We don’t have the social circle that can coordinate times to run with 4 friends. It’s why delves are such a hit. It’s why solo shuffle is a hit. It’s why BG Blitz is a hit. Players want to queue for things. Blizzard just needs to figure it out.

[@D4rkc14ymor3]

​@kevinc8955 speak for yourself, most of us have friends and don't need to pug. If you play an MMO like a single player game, you don't get to complain about getting cockblocked from content.

[@bobbilling1075]

I love it when you can just tell by the dialogue of the party for the first two minutes from joining that they are going to be complete garbage and then they proceed to completely prove you right within two minutes of the dungeon

[@moldgrim1]

All keys should have 3 charges. That way we have a safety net for when ppl DC, IRL happens, someone messes up. An infinite amount of tries will be fine as well, but having a set amount adds a bit of urgency to the whole thing.

[@mekz22]

This is probably the only suggestion I've seen so far that could work.

[@gooseg3822]

I thought about the timer a lot and there is no way around it. Having no timer would come to a point where your ceiling is waiting for list on almost every pull. The problem is more the demonising returns as soon as you deplete. You should just get 12 crests as well when you deplete. You completed the dungeon after all.

[@Laptican]

I personally think by the end of Season 1, maybe 2 M+ is gonna get a complete revamp. I know that top players like Growl, Naowh, Jak etc really hate the current state of Mythic+. I'm also doing 15-16's myself and honestly it's the worst is has ever been, especially with pugs (i only do 10-11's with pugs for weekly on my alts but it's still really bad). Thank you for bringing this to more people's attention, i know you're a small youtuber but 5.7k views and 199 comments in a day really says alot.

[@sgtBONGwater]

The guild mates seeing you log on and wanting to run hits me so hard being a 2750 disc priest in a H raid guild.

[@Guddrog]

I get it and I would also prefer not to have my key depleted, so I can try again until I time the key, but with the current system, you just need full premade group if you want to do 12s. When we deplete 12, we have to do 11 sure, but this is an opportunity for us to try new strategies, so we keep learning as a group. When you pug, you just roll a dice every time, learning nothing and I pesonally would rather quit the game than deal with what you just described.

[@VDHmain]

Yeah io goblins are the ones complaining all over the place, and the real reason they can't do 12s is that they don't prog 12s, they leave at the first mistake. It's like only practicing the first third of a song and then wondering why you can't play the whole thing.

[@MikeGalosi]

we only have so much time to live, no time for key depletion mate

[@jonlane6527]

@@VDHmain 12s are very puggable but theres some things you need to communicate prior. Lust locations for example. Routes are sometimes good to know if theres a skip you're responsible for. I've found in my experience pugs fall apart because they treat a 12 like its a 5.

[@muphsiprivate]

@@MikeGalosi But you have the time to apply to groups, get into one, play for 5 minutes and then leave at the first mistake? that is an absurd waste of time.

[@malykothedragon]

It's SO bad as fury warrior, for me it took 3 weeks just to get from 2400 to 2500 and I only just hit it a few days ago. I struggle so much just to get into 10s (which are the onky things that give me score) and don't have a group of friends to do this with so i had to pug over the course of several times a week having sessions every day of that time period

[@nyloaf]

TWW has been a frustrating letdown in terms of gearing, m+, raid, graphical performance, and ESPECIALLY how obnoxious crafting and consumable prices are. A single haste enchant for a ring should not cost 5k gold a piece, and crafting a single maxed out 636 piece should not cost more than 10k in materials let alone an extra 10-15k in crafter tips. If Dragonflight was THE expansion for new players and accessibility, TWW took a massive, steaming shit on the precedence THEY set previously.

[@joeblack2809]

Oh my Lord the rage at that poor foolish shaman 😂🤣😂. My Man’s raging at the elements themselves. I’m surprised you didn’t report him 😂

[@minnakangaspuoskari]

I pug only low keys. I got a guild/friend group to do little higher keys with. But overall my approach to a key is getting it done. I am more about getting shit to my vault or getting even a chance to get the BiS item that I'd love. I suggest making more friends for keys.

[@rogerlongfall]

DoubleD, I understand your frustrations, I do. M+ has never been my cup of tea. But if I was doing an 11 or 12 I wouldn't be pugging them!

[@cyntheticgaming]

So I was going to comment on the topic itself but just wanted to say that for the quality of your commentary your channel should have so many more subs! Keep up the good work!

[@cryonicblue]

The timer is why I don't play M+

[@dwbryant13]

Anyone doing the nakey jakey pose discredits themselves immediately

[@GhettoFabuloso]

For being frustrated, you still managed to make this coherent. Props to that. The only thing I'll challenge you on is the idea of you deserving to do 12 because you've proven yourself on 11's. I guess my friend group is different but we've never really viewed it as 11's being cleared content, but instead the key representing a win streak with higher rewards the longer and higher it goes on. I can understand the frustration entirely, especially in public queues. Thoughts?

[@gurraglad]

This is the blizzard way, just like you get less loot even though you finish the friggin key

[@driiifter]

I just hover around low keys until I out gear them so much that I start having fun. There is no out gearing the climb from 8 to 12 this season though. A 12 is like a 25 key last season, I wouldn't even entertain ever doing a 25, 30, or current 12s, no matter how much gear I have. Maybe if the guildies wanna try it, but there's no way I'm attempting to climb it. If Blizz wants an accessible game mode in 2025, the content has to be queued, it's that simple. Maybe they didn't get the clue with LFR however many decades ago that came out?? The people who designed LFR probably aren't even employed at Blizzard anymore. To play devil's advocate though, people don't realize that if they balance or tune for 12s and 16s being puggable and accessible, they have to create a framework for it that doesn't invalidate the raids. The raids don't scale, so eventually M+ will have people breezing through Mythic raid like it's LFR if the gear scaled infinitely with the key level. You would have 1% of the player base wearing ilvl 750 gear while everyone else is 619-636. Something has to give, either rewards go up, it becomes queued or the raids scale too. Also a lot of M+ rage is mitigated by playing tank/healer. That's probably why they nerfed tanks because they know it's easier. That's how they roll now.

[@ai_serf]

a) if the game is that buggy, we shouldn't play, b) you know they design it like this on purpose?, that is key depletion. it keeps people hooked and model's addiction, how something can never be consistent and we're constantly chasing a dragon.

[@ArmandMehicic]

a) is true, b) is you should touch grass

[@天使霜]

Exactly this... dungeons are just the steps on the road to raiding. M+ is completely optional after a certain point. Absurd to ask for no downsides for failure.

[@felipesoberanski4724]

i haven't even touched mythics this season, been doing only raids and delves and it has been great. Only do mythics with guildies, fuck it if the key breaks, the important part is to have fun

[@mizzymk1475]

Keys under 10 should not deplete

[@carrcossa]

I went to Arakara +11 3 times. First time tank just jumped of the platform by an accident and we missed the timer. 2nd run, we missed the timer by 15 seconds which was sad xd 3rd time I went with another group of randoms and we double chested that 11 :) just have to keep trying and get lucky, but having a way to prevent depletions would be nice :D

[@marcpaulus6291]

A depletion is ok when you didnt make it because you were not strong enough for it or made too many mistakes. But in the Bug Within, were every dungeon has some game breaking bugs, classes are buged in a way they can accidentaly pull trash out of other rooms (hunters, boomkins etc) this is not fair anymore. And keep trying till you encounter no game breaking bug in a dungheon that is already challenging is no fun.

[@Kimenzi]

You forgot to add the part where people tell you not the play M+ if it makes you mad, even though it COULD be fun, but sometimes people constantly leaving makes it the opposite of fun.

[@Squagem]

This only gets worse as you go higher. Currently trying to push my keystone into 14s in pugs, you dont time and have to do a 13 which is alredy extremely difficult lol

[@Sea-Voyager]

u earned yourself a new sub PLEASE KEEP THIS UP

[@retrohanska4441]

I've been saying this same thing for over two expansions now. Blizzard can balance and fine tune the mode in every way imaginable but if player receives negative progress after already horrible run that wasted their time, none of that effort is gonna matter. It's gonna remain just as unappealing. The community is gonna remain just as paranoid towards each other. The devs have done so much to make the game respect player's time in last couple of years so I don't get why this is the one hill they're willing to die on.

[@ole2080]

The stuck thing in Dawnbreaker happened to 2 ppl of my last 13 aswell, other stucks happened also in Stonevault and other TWW Dungeons and its so tilting to get your key depleted by spaghetti code, makes it a complete joke

[@commandershepard7728]

If you removed key depletion and the timer is be happy - even when you are not the problem and someone else’s screws up people dip…. With out those mechanics maybe people would stick around and actually work on progress

[@MrCyberMuffin]

Easy solution: dont pug 12s. I dont understand why you'd even want to do that.

[@utopiandystopia1383]

blizzard designed the entire system to waste your time as much as possible

[@markyYE]

I never understood the depletion system, it was the first question I asked when I started playing m+ and people just told me: ”Well it be weird if you didnt get punished for failing.” The time wasted when not timing the key is punishment enough. If blizz still wants the depletion system to be a thing I think they should implement charges to the keys so you atleast have like 2-3 tries on each key.

[@gggldrk]

And that is why I play tank, and my brother healer vice versa, we did everything on 0 to understand for weeks. Then we have been keying +10-11s but we do not need to push farther there is no reason without a closed group besides stressing yourself.

[@satan8175]

i don't understand why wow players are always so scared to "hate/give feedback" on the game. It's literally the most expensive game on the market. If any game your voice should be heard its this one lol

[@Squagem]

The problem is actually a really complicated incentive design choice. If blizzard just removes depletion, you remove the incentive to ever run anything other than your own keystone. Suddenly, you don't get applicants to your groups anymore. Think about it -- why would you ever run anything except your own keystone if it never depleted? Take that a step further: why would *ANYONE* ever run anything other than their own keystone? Furthermore, it creates a perverse incentive for players to just "gg next" the moment ANY single mistake is made. Herein lies the problem with removing depletion in a vacuum. We need a full system rework, simply removing depletion creates incentive problems.

[@johannilsson6395]

My key is siege. I don't wanna do siege. I join a key.

[@Squagem]

@johannilsson6395 yes, in the very rare situation where you just simply don't want to run the dungeon that is your keystone, then you can use a group finder. What you are saying implies that instead of nobody applying for groups they will be just a very tiny amount of people (those that for some reason don't want to run the current dungeon that is their keystone) applying for groups.

[@johannilsson6395]

@Squagem I just never base my key choice on if it can be depleted or not. Only on what I wanna do.

[@Squagem]

@@johannilsson6395 yeah that's fair, and I applaud you for being able to play the game that way. I'd also suggest that you're in the vast minority in a sea of people who prefer to push keys for score

[@Chimpmanboom]

The problem is 4-6 mechanics can 1 shot you. It’s way harder than the raid.

[@rockrick9988]

I just play healer and queue for keys. If it's bricked, I'm in the same dungeon same lvl 2 minutes later to go again As dps, I tried this and just couldn't get into anything at all on that same character that has gear and appropriate score. It's a terrible place to be

[@ProblemOfficer3000]

You should be able to report people that dont use their abilities for griefing as well, had a ret paladin with 3 rebukes whole dungeon calling us the gamer word and 'jelaous of his damage'

[@shadowbanned3044]

TLDR: Blizzard nerfed the difficulty and now you have people at keys lvls where they don't belong to.

[@matthewharrington5990]

Honestly, Gain some perspective you're expecting perfection in an imperfect world

[@sirpiken]

Imagine if raiders had to go back and kill the previous boss (for no loot) after every failed attempt. Wait.... I don't have to imagine that, they basically did that shit in Mnt Hyjal in BC (not a boss but 20 minutes of trash).

[@Blulava]

The problem with the "git gud" a-holes is that your playing with 4 other people.... You cant be amazing and pick up 4 random AMAZING players as well. Things will go wrong. The keys reverting is blizz way of timegating progression in Mythics

[@Dragon211]

I only play for the first month of a season for these very reasons. I don't need any insane gear because I don't raid because people are complete dumb asses and can't move their character. I just enjoy the new dungeons we get for that month, and then I'm done until the next season. I used to play this game 3-8 hours a day every day but the community now just sucks balls, even in a guild it mostly sucks balls.

[@MikeGalosi]

mythic plus is stupid as fuck. back when men were men we just had heroics and you had optional hard modes you could engage with the bosses, that shit was creative and fun! bring back Ulduar style raiding!

[@gohomehero]

They need something to run that offers rewards comparable to m+ that arent delves. Immediately think of vermintide/darktide style survival maps with random encounters. Would play the heck out of that.

[@speakingwithghosts]

10/10 vibed with the rage

[@MrCarlWax]

It doesn't go down a level when you miss the timer, only if dont finish it at all 4:00

[@Somedoe8638]

I pug high keys and M+ hasn’t been as frustrating as it is right now.

[@sandraganadi7896]

Was doing keys in Shadowlands, now i don't even ask to get in a mitick+0. This is gotten so bad, rather not progress than loosing my shit like you dude.

[@indritmani1198]

Have 1 question if the Platform X could possibly have up to 75% bots , how many does WoW have ?

[@toxickite93]

I stopped playing in Shadowlands. Wasn't there some discussion about removing the time for low level keys? Whatever happened to that?

[@marcpaulus6291]

Not really right "raids are different, you arent on a timer" You are on a timer called season. If you want to have your "ahead of time" then you have to beat the raid on the "timer" But you are right, Blizzard should just give us a system were when you already timed that dungeon on +x you cant deplete it on that lvl (evrybody in that group had to beat it)

[@MostlyFish21]

I refuse to play Ara Kara because of the last boss. It's a nightmare in Pugs but I only run 8s so maybe people are better in higher keys

[@Psiilocybe]

I love playing M+ since mid Legion. Im not a pro or something, but i. e. Dragonflight last Season I was around 3,3-3,4k rio, and 99% of the time I run keys with randoms. I personally like the dungeons, the affixes whether I like or disleke its okay. But somehow community, playerwise, this is the worst experience of a Season in M+ I have ever had. Don't know whats the reason exactly. I have to say I started 2 weeks after release of Season and midpushing I restarted with another char, so my score never grew. But still, even after months now so many people still dont know so much simple mechanics that 9/10 keys is a depletion. Its frustrating, so much that I stopped playing the game this season.

[@hoplit6764]

The point of depletion is to have lvl diversity. Yes, you've proven that you can do 11 but some players still need 11 for rating. If there was no depletion then there wouldnt be lower keys to run. So rip anyone who cant play every day whole day. Every time you fail 12 and do 11 you are helping someone new to do that 11.

[@heyguyswhatshappening6210]

Depletion is necessary as it will stop people from trying stupid tactics only to reset the dungeon

[@creamyusbport4647]

why is that a bad thing? does this really effect anyone at all?

[@0grdt]

Whole season sucked from start, switched to pvp and goldfarming/ doing things whatever I want. Best expansion so far

[@Navi_xoo]

Logic does not apply to WoW gameplay design. Its obvious this should have been done years ago. Wildstar did it. If you want to farm an item you should be able to pick the dungeon you want to farm.

[@gunzorzz]

the majority of the problem is rating WHo***, nothing happens to leavers/griefers, and people making videos like " YOU HAVE TO USE THIS SETUP". M+ in of itself is decently balanced atm. They could maybe have a smaller jump from one key to the next lvl tho. aswell that we never get myth drops. Not even in 12+ where is the cutoff point where shit rly starts to get harder

[@marek8725]

unless you are in a god gamer party, doing m+ means that you will on average fail most of your keys. you play in a 2 man group, insist on doing your own keys and are surprised that things dont go how you want them to...

[@xd.mosthated]

Keys should deplete. The game is hard, there should be consequences for playing bad. Hot take but I don’t think keys shouldn’t deplete.

[@corruptedsmiles6616]

STOP MY NAME IS JESSE 😭😭😭😭

[@eppattv]

The funny thing is rank 1 players saying depletes are good because people would try insane pulls and reset dungeons if they don't succeed lmao

[@stelthy3450]

And there is nothing wrong with that type of practice. Makes 0 sense to penalize players and waste their time.

[@eppattv]

@@stelthy3450 so true! Punishing 99.9% of the population because 0.1% is full of degenerates is asinine game design lol

[@rmvanravesteijn]

I completely agree!! Depletion should be deleted, period.

[@Sea-Voyager]

shamans that dont lust ROFLMAOOOOOOOOO

[@stubbystubby]

I think people who like key depletion are people who don't want "shitters" in their high level keys... To which they won't invite anyways because they'll invite the "meta" specs anyways and wipe within the first minute of the dungeon and then leave lol. There's an alternative that could be tested that most players won't like, but would prevent this: forcing people to time key levels (per dungeon) of a lower value before being allowed to try the key level above it similar to delves. You can always re-enter at that key level but if you don't time it, you don't get to try the key above it. You'll still be given a vault slot, just no IO or access to the next tier. Yes, it'd lead to a world where everyone is doing +2s, +3s, +4s over and over again but the long term suffering for long term gains might result in players forced to learn mechanics and become better, since they'd never be able to touch content they're not supposed to do. But Blizzard is rarely about radical change. The simple solution is just to not let a key deplete at all. It's a waste of people's time, since you're now forced to run a lower tier to attempt to run it back at the tier you were at before (as you said). I think Blizzard should consider at least testing no depletion on keys so people can learn to complete keys and be okay with "bricking" a key. You're already punished heavily for not completing a key in time (no IO, leading to less invites because you didn't time that key, less loot at the end of the dungeon, and time spent just completing the key) so I really don't see a reason for key depletion anymore. It has been, and always will be, a shit part of the system. But, the 0.1% of players who participate in high end M+ content will whine and bitch and moan that "shitters" are in their +12s cause they brute forced their way in by repeatedly slamming their heads into a +11 until they got better...? Who fucking knows, man, I'm with you on it, lol.

[@TWEAKLET]

you can get io for untimed keys just depends on how badly it was over

[@leaverpool8059]

The 0.1% doesn't invite pugs unto their groups. I don't see why they would whine to be honest, even that would be good for them to practice some options without loosing time by pushing the key to the same level as explained in the video

[@hg5507]

it sucks to heal them, i love healing but the amount of time si get kicked or blamed for messing up a key bc dps dont interrupt or use their own defensives makes me want to quit lol

[@kubankhaos]

Is that a tiny cup of coffe your holding in your hand during the video?

[@malohn2068]

Dont bother. Wow players are stupid and refuse change that's in their own best self interest. A solution to this would be to remove the time limit. People say thr removal of time limit makes it toxic cause then people keep trying to win a fight they can't win but what's the difference. Two wipes and people leaves with a timer. Four wipes and people leave without timer. It beats having to gamble with your time. Will this +12 last 35 mins or will it last 2 hours cause the first key got bricked. Or make it a choice. Timed vs non timed and separate them. If people want timed they do timed. If they don't want timed then they don't. This also promotes push vs speed playstyle. Heck we might see people rolling 5 blood death knights to do Ara Kara +21

[@deseanroot75]

Remove the timer and there is no difference in this vs raid. The time is what makes it challenging and a great alternative to the raid. If I want to spend an hour throwing myself at a boss we've failed multiple times I'll just raid. The timer let's me know it's time to leave and run it back later.

[@neverclevernorwitty7821]

... "and then we grabbed 3 other pugs" ... I think I see your issue.