Mythical vs. Procedural Gods

[@briansebor]

In Ancient Greek religious practice, Hestia is a very important hearth goddess and I cannot recall one myth about her

[@TheGreenKnight500]

That's a perfect example. She's the goddess of hearth and home and always given the first offerings during home worship, but you'd hardly know about her if you just focused on myth. I actually think the separation between myth and procedure goes deeper than that. For example, the Greeks and Romans made a distinction between the behavior of the gods in myths and their actual nature in practice. Sallust asserts pretty strongly in his writing that myths are stories meant to teach you something, and despite what you might think from reading them, the gods are actually above negative emotions like anger. Divine punishment comes from people turning away from divinity and hurting themselves rather than the gods getting some sort of revenge. Of course, that's just his take on it. I'm sure other people had a somewhat different perspectives. Regardless, it provides a nice glimpse into the concept of a separation between mythology and the actual beliefs and practices of the worshipers.

[@dontshanonau1335]

@De Re Antiqua I was gonna write something like that, but not quite as extensive. Good god. xD But all good points.

[@briansebor]

@@DeReAntiqua you wrote way more than I’m gonna read, especially since your first paragraph is completely false. There is no myth of Hestia “giving up” her seat to Dionysus. That’s from Rick Riordan’s children’s book series. In reality, there are just two different lists of Olympians that people worshiped, with Dionysus or Hestia occupying the 12th slot. You then continue talking for a long time about a lot of other stuff so I’ll just say this- a lot of people have ideas about Hestia and she gets a few mentions here and there but there are no actually fully preserved myths about her. The only thing approaching a myth you cite isn’t even from Ancient Greece.

[@briansebor]

@@DeReAntiqua lol, then next time don’t cite something from a kid’s book as real myth

[@briansebor]

@@DeReAntiqua seek help

[@luxtenebris7246]

This also makes me wonder how much of our confusion is caused by catching the Norse myths at a particular time in history. Devotions change over time even when the mythology doesn’t. In Catholicism for example, for about 500 years St. Martin of Tours was considered one of the most important saints of the faith, churches, cathedrals, and even whole towns were named after or dedicated to him. Now his name is rarely seen even among Catholics in his homeland of France where St. Jeanne d’Arc, St. François de Sales, and St. Therese of Lisieux are more popular. In England, St Cuthbert was massively venerated and celebrated in the early Middle Ages and now his name is rarely heard in the English speaking world. In a polytheistic environment it makes sense that devotions to different gods would have waxed and waned through history, and it strikes me that our concept of the Germanic pantheon and the relative importance of each member is probably heavily biased towards one particular moment of history captured in the source documents used by Snorri.

[@logitimate]

This seems plausible. Another factor almost *has* to be whose accounts we're reading - our sources on Norse mythology are mostly either poems written for (and sometimes also by) nobles and kings, or advice on how to write such poems. And, in a no doubt *complete* coincidence, the highest and most important god in them is . . . the one most concerned with war, kingship, and poetry!

[@MatthewsPersonal]

Exactly, and if you read the sources, there are hints of those "battles for power" in the stories we are told.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

As I understand it, Tyr was more or less the leader of the Norse pantheon prior to Odin. Do not take my word for that, though. Greece had a similar thing, though. Poseidon was the head of the pantheon in Mycenean Greece, and was supplanted by Zeus sometime during the Greek Dark Age. And Apollo rose to major prominence during Hellenic Greece and the Roman Empire (Sol Invictus and all of that).

[@Hin_Håle]

The comparison with ritual saints is interesting. As you might know, there is one saint which has huge ritual importance in Sweden - saint Lucia. Even though a majority of swedes are non believers and a tiny minority of christians are catholics, we celebrate Lucia day every year on december 13th. Very few know why we do this and the celebration is highly ritualised. Basically, everyone puts on a long, white night shirt and some funny headwear and sings lucia songs with candles in their hands. The songs are all about her visiting people in their homes and wishing a merry christmas and good fortune. She has no other purpose and for the rest of the year, nobody even thinks about her. We even have delicious Lucia buns, specifically for Lucia day. It's a whole thing! Lucia herself has become kind of like any other nordic mythological creature, only we don't still perform any rituals around those. It's really weird when you try to describe it. 😊

[@Scareth]

Jag har faktiskt aldrig tänkt på det på det här sättet. Det är faktiskt intressant. Lucia skulle man enkelt kunna jämföra med andra religiösa varelser, men till skillnad från många andra religiösa väsen i andra religioner, har Lucia inte någon större roll än just den 13 December. Intressant, nu när du nämner det.

[@vde1846]

That's actually a perfect example! Also the "tomtar/nissar" who, unlike "troll" or "alver", survive not just as staple characters in folklore and superstition but also as objects of contiguous, if extremely sporadic, ritual worship. I've even put out porridge for the "tomte" when I was a kid (and gave up my pacifier to him lol).

[@hyvakoira]

When reading the Eddas, I always got a feeling it's just a small fragment that survived of the rich mythological tradition that was once there. Maybe I'm mistaken , but it's a shame we really have so few stories left though there were many more.

[@Scareth]

Oh you are guaranteed not mistaken. A LOT was for sure lost, never to be spoken of again. It's a huge shame, but only so much could be written by Snorri and a lot had already been lost due to the christianization. If I had one wish, it would be to learn of all the forgotten stories and myths from the old norse people.

[@bluewhaleking6227]

Meanwhile, those of us who want to know about other branches of Germanic mythology (E.g. Anglo-Saxon, Dutch, German, Gothic, etc) can't do much except cry in the corner over a couple tiny pitiful crumbs.

[@peterknutsen3070]

Gaiman also talks about that in the foreword to his book. He seems to believe that myths once existed about goddesses such as Eir. Of course, that’s just his instinct, but he is an author, and he narrated the audiobook himself (so also somewhat of a traditional storyteller), and he has been keenly interested in various mythologies for decades. And it’s not as if all instincts are equal.

[@Ratnoseterry]

Without a doubt, there are still manuscripts out there to be plumbed. Hold out, we're living in great times for discovery. Trust the best is yet to come.

[@sleepywoodelf]

Also worth considering that Norse culture was probably much more diverse than we often make it seem. We may have only received the myths of a certain time, place, cult, and social group.

[@dmakron]

Exactly! Snorri had a distinct desire to link Iceland to Norway. Freyr has links to the Swedish kings, Uppsala (again), and Sweden has numerous place names with his stamp on it. Could be the Western tradition just wasn’t as big on Njordr & his children as the East.

[@torbjrnh.3275]

@@dmakron Njord is (or was) a very important god where I'm from om Western Norway. That municipality is called "Tysnes" today (named after the god Tyr) but was until the 19th century named "Njardarlog" or "the realm of Njord". Njardarlog was a holy island and has lots of geographical names suggesting ancient worship such as "Lunde" (holy grove), Vevatne (holy lake) and "Hovland" (my last name), which pretty much means the same in English: a place where the Hov was located (temple). Njardarlog was a very important place for all of Western Norway and has the most geographical names relating to Norse religion in all of Norway (I believe).

[@dmakron]

@@torbjrnh.3275 Thank you for the information. I appreciate it.

[@peterknutsen3070]

The Aesir might have been the gods of the warrior nobility and the poets (and the berzerkers, and some types of magicians) with Thor being unusual in that he was liked by (and relevant) to the common people, who otherwise saw more sense in the fertility-pertinent Vanir gods.

[@elfarlaur]

From what I know from classes I took on Roman religion, this is very much the case. In part this is likely due to the fact that much of the mythology was adopted from other cultures (namely Greece), but you would think that they would tie them in somehow even when they differed. You have Vesta, one of the most important goddesses who has no prominent myths, and the lares, household gods which we know little about but were very important in ritual. Likewise as time goes on you have a god like Sol Invictus, patron god of the emperor, but no stories about him. The separation is so noticeable that someone like Varro will distinguish between the religion of the city (i.e. civic ritual) and the religion of the poets.

[@VilcxjoVakero]

I was thinking about the genius and those penates Aeneas brings from Troy - Aeneas' carrying them is clearly significant from Virgil's standpoint, but they themselves not so much.

[@therat1117]

This is actually very true of Celtic myth, for example - most of the mythological figures are humans or human-like beings, sometimes with magical powers, and these are generally the subjects of the stories. Whilst numerous figures bear god-names, they are never really treated like gods, and more like people with magical powers, but people who do not have god-names can also display similar powers. The myths are more like tales of tragedy, heroic acts, and morality with well-known figures moreso than connected to any original ritual belief.

[@peterknutsen3070]

Frequently told myths have to entertain. The Jewish Exodus myth is a good example. It’s a very moving and dramatic story. People keep telling and re-telling it because it entertains. Same with Thor’s Marriage. The manliest god having to dress up as a woman to get his pet weapon back is extremely entertaining. And I’m sure that many Christians genuinely do find something entertaining in their core myths, even though most of them do nothing for me.

[@jmolofsson]

In school (ordinary secondary school in the city of Lund), it was proposed to us pupils that Ullr was irrelevant on Iceland, where there were no yew grows and not much forests with wildlife to hunt, as an explanation to why we've lots of Ullr-localities in Scandinavia but none in Iceland. The number of Ullr-localities indicates that Ullr must have been at least comparably important as the better known gods. That nothing is known about the god Ullr was explained as "everything we know, we've learned from Iceland."

[@elenna_alexia]

The thing is that when Norse settlers first arrived there was a lot of forests there. There would have still been substantially more than now for the first few hundred years of Norse settlement

[@peterknutsen3070]

@@elenna_alexia Also, Denmark had some forest in the Viking Age, yet according to other comments under this video, Ullr was completely unknown here.

[@luxtenebris7246]

This is an interesting idea for sure. It’s certainly true that there are some Catholic saints that make either very very small appearances or none at all in canon literature who are nevertheless invoked and prayed to frequently for aid in particular circumstances. St. Jude and St. Christopher come to mind.

[@lakrids-pibe]

Ullr is the patron god of woolen sweaters/jumpers and hats.

[@Hin_Håle]

And of reeeally cold sheep, I suppose.

[@roceb5009]

Greek and Roman mythology have tons of these gods that are worshipped but that seems to have very few myths. Janus is the one that really springs to mind. Like basically he has one myth where he less-than-consentually fathers the goddess of hinges (lol), and everything else is myths about other gods he gets identified with syncretically.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

Interestingly, many Danish place names point to worship of Óðinn. The villages of Onsbjerg (Samsø) and Vonsbæk (S Jutland) apparently reflect a hill and a stream, respectively, that have been dedicated to Óðinn, although it is unclear what that means. But Oddense (NW Jutland), Odense (Funen), Oens (SE Jutland), Onsved (N Zealand) and Vojens (S Jutland) all reflect Old Norse Óðinsvé (or Óðinsví in Old East Norse, I suppose) which means "Óðinn shrine", whereas Onsild (E Jutland), Vognsild (NE Jutland) and Vonsild (S Jutland) reflect Óðinshilla (Óðinshylla in OEN, I think) and apparently refer to an "Óðinn shelf" or "Óðinn rack" where idols of Óðinn may have been placed during worship; maybe a smaller kind of shrine. So since we also have abundant narratives about Óðinn I imagine that the distinction is not clear cut, with some gods falling in both categories (not that Jackson claimed otherwise of course, I just wanted to contribute with even more nuance). PS: The name forms with Vo- reflect a former diphthongisation in parts of Jutland.

[@peterknutsen3070]

The “Vo-“ form makes me think of the Germanic Wotan.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

@@peterknutsen3070 Yes, that is very understandable. That is also why I felt a need to stress that it is a secondary development which is unrelated to the West Germanic form.

[@BardChords]

I was reading a textbook on mesopotamia and it drew a distinction between "cultic" and "mythical" gods. In the stories, gods like Inanna would have to ask anu to intercede, and lots of very popular gods do not seem to figure in literature at all (Dagan, for instance).

[@johnwilson1340]

what was the name of that textbook?

[@BardChords]

​@@johnwilson1340 I actually looked and couldn't locate it without just going through each .pdf. I have about 15 pdfs and 3 physical books on the subject. I wanted to provide a citation in the original comment, but I couldn't find the original passage. I'm sorry, it's a real tease to put a good snippet out there and not be able to back it up. As I go through texts, I will keep looking for it and reply to this comment if I find it.

[@johnwilson1340]

@@BardChords Thanks for the reply. Good luck in finding it!

[@peterknutsen3070]

@@BardChords Please do share when you find it.

[@Wyrrdinn]

Wow. I've never caught one of your videos this early. Cool

[@ThorirLenvik]

It's surprisingly much we don't have many stories about, like the female 'spirits' fylgjer and disir, nornir etc. Åsynjar? We can figure out that the "disablot" must've been one of the most important celebrations of the year. But, it seems mostly connected with the family and the females in the household. I think you have covered this, but you are really onto something important when you distinguish between the myths and the practice of religions. I assume it would have changed over time and be different from place to place. What we have from the medieval literature and later folk tales, are just some glimpses of what we call Norse religion today ...

[@Fronk_RL]

Many thanks, excellent food for thought

[@einarbolstad8150]

Watching from Ullensaker municipality, named after Ullr. The coat of arms of Ullensaker depicts Ullr.

[@peterknutsen3070]

Viewed from a trope perspective, some Norse gods might have had a much greater built-in dramatic potential than others, and so appear in a lot more myths. Freja often as a trophy or object of desire. Idun and her apples have a similar role in at least one myth. Looking at more active gods (coincidentally, all male), Odin is an XP-chaser. If you dangle a big fat sack of ding-up in front of him, he’s going to be motivated to pursue it. Loke is both a problem-solver and a problem-causer; a trickster. Thor seems to not often cause things to happen, but when things are already happening, he’s quite inclined to pull out Mjolnir and swing it about a few times, because that’s his idea of fun. I’m sure a modern fantasy fiction writer could write a really good thriller mood novel about an Ullr-like special ops-type aesir, going alone on a long direct action-mission to accomplish a goal. But it wouldn’t be the type of story that’s very well suited to traditional oral storytelling. Even though that’s the kind of story that Ullr would probably be best suited for.

[@ospyearn]

My only qualification for commenting here is that I live in Norway, where Ull, in my experience is quite prominent in place names, at least in the east of Norway. E.g., Ullevål, Ullensaker, Ullern, Ullersmo, and Ullvin. Apart from Ull, Frøy, Frøya and Tor are also widely used, whereas Odin is quite rare. I don't know if this supports your distinction between mythical and procedural gods, whereof Ull belongs to the latter category. Tor seems to fall a bit between.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

I have read about this, and it is quite interesting that Ullr is completely absent in Danish place names whereas Óðinn is common. There seems to have been regional differences in the prominence of the gods but we must probably also accept that Óðinn belongs in both categories. I'll write more about it in a new thread.

[@melissahdawn]

Such a good idea to plant in minds that would not have had the depth of understanding to even realize the possibility otherwise!

[@jamesevans5495]

Definitely can see a similarity in the Christian tradition. Besides St. Jude there's also St. Anthony for lost things, as well as the Medieval 14 Holy Helpers - most of which are minor for stories compared to a St. George, but vital to ritual practice. Whereas someone like said St. George was a famous story but I can't think of a major aspect of devotional or ritual practice beyond some chivalric orders. "This person's story is cool" isn't the same as "this person is really helpful to me"

[@F1ghteR41]

St George was quite important as a patron of agriculture, especially in the Near East and in Slavic lands. In Russia, for example, he ended up being celebrated not once, but twice a year, besides being likely put on coinage and so on. And being a military saint is a very large responsibility, not just for chivalric orders.

[@xepharnazos]

I feel bad for our descendants who will never know the elaborate mythic cycles we have about Negative Nancy, Johnny Come Lately, and the mischievous Liar Liar Pants On Fire.

[@IPlayWithFire135]

That's not even the half of it. We have the Saga of Karen, who refused to wear a mask.

[@peterknutsen3070]

@@IPlayWithFire135 Why did The Karen refuse to wear a mask, Grandfather? And why did others tell her to put on a mask? Was it because her face was hideously ugly?

[@IPlayWithFire135]

@@peterknutsen3070 No, child. It was not her face that was ugly. It was her heart.

[@DrunkenBigfootStudio]

I think I recall "Ullr's boat" being listed as a kenning for a shield, which suggests a missing mythic story that would provide that context.

[@happyhourk12]

Several saints of the Roman Cannon (Eucharistic Prayer) have very little known about them. In that way they would fit your argument well. I would love to talk about that.

[@j3tztbassman123]

You pose an excellent question. For which I have no answer.

[@odinsett8824]

Very interesting thinking I can relate to. It is hard to tell 'exciting' or 'entertaining' tales on everyday life, yet that does not make those Gods any less relevant.

[@VilcxjoVakero]

I think in Protestantism too parallels could be found. Narratively important figures like, say, Abraham or Paul might feature heavily in stories, aeteologies, and sermons, but in day-to-day religious life take a back seat to basically extrabiblical things like cross necklaces and fish on car bumpers, 'guardian' angels, even Santa and the dang elf on the shelf (depending on how you define belief).

[@paulaunger3061]

I'd love to know more about the more obscure gods. Ullr is an interesting one. I've felt for a while that maybe the reason there was so muich written about Odin, Thor and Loki is that those were the characters specifically relevant to the people who "went a'vking ". Odin is more like a war god rather than an almighty, and when Tolkien refers to him as 'the glutter of crows, the necromancer', I think that's a lot more like it!

[@peterknutsen3070]

Odin wasn’t just a god for some of those who went on violent tourist trips. He was also a god for Kings, at least Danish and Norwegian Kings. The Svea seemed to think that Frej was the ancestor of their Kings, and I don’t know about the Geats. It makes some sense that Snorri mostly would have been interested in those gods that were relevant to the warrior nobility.

[@paulaunger3061]

@@peterknutsen3070 That still follows though - so many kings were also warlords!

[@meadcheek9454]

I think that ancient Egyptian religion provides some good comparatives for the Ullr/Vanir/(and also Hoenir) conundrums. I think that that what is going on with the lack of mythical evidence for these gods is actually a different phenomenon in each case. With the Vanir gods, based on the theophoric toponym distribution, they seem to have been way more popular in certain regions than others. The main region being part of Sweden if I remember right. You see the same thing in Egyptian religion with gods like Nekhebet who while attested in general mythology and one of the two patron goddesses of the monarchy had way more importance relatively speaking in certain Upper Egyptian areas. With Hoenir I think that you have the case of an important god who is important for having done a few very specific acts; ie. taking part in creating humans and being part of a divine trio with Loki and Odin. Before being combined with gods like Amun and even Horus at various points, this seems to be sort of analogous to the original mythological importance of Ra the sun god. He shows up in theophoric names possibly as early as Dynasty 2 and was clearly important in the later Old Kingdom but we have very little in the way of myths about Ra as a separate stand-alone deity aside from those related to his direct connection with the path of the sun around the Earth. Most later writing is about Amun-Ra or Ra-Horakhty and leans on the mythology of the gods with which he was combined. With Ullr I think that you have a god whose mythological role got cannibalized by other deities including Odin, Thor, and Skadi. Ritual practice often is more conservative than narrative mythology however so he remained ritually important until the conversion. In Egypt you see this with Wepwawet who was a very significant royal patron war associated god in the Early Dynastic period but who is pretty much unattested in New Kingdom and Late Period mythology even though his characteristic standards still show up in art and iconography indicating a continued ritual importance.

[@peterknutsen3070]

It makes sense that orally transmitted myths would change a *lot* over the course of centuries.

[@H0pp4k33]

Hi, dr.Crawford, i have been watching your vids for almost 3 years. I'm Dutch i speak French, German and English. Never learned anything Scandinavian. Haven't learned any language in over 25 years. But now i can read and understand a lot of Icelandic and old-Norse too. Any idea how cool that is. Im having so much fun, but i have never actually tried to apply what i have learned, not many people to practice old-Norse with. So, here goes ... Ek hor gammel sprak, ek tala litið, margir orð er sama, margir orð er undarlegt. Tungramal er meira en nog fyrir friid, fyrir Yule. Með hjalp þinni ek fljuga ok falli, að synda eða synda, en ekki vitlaus. Ek þakka þer fra botni hjarta minu. Til hammingju fra Niðurlandi.

[@nealdolphin]

Is there any evidence that the Asir and the Vanir were two wholly different mythologies that at some point were mashed together? I understand this has happened in other mythologies, at least for individual gods,

[@peterknutsen3070]

As I understand it, it was once believed that they were the mythologies of two different peoples, a farming and fertility-oriented and somewhat more settled and peaceful people, and a *very* war-oriented and perhaps somewhat more nomadic people (perhaps the Eruli/Heruli), and that as those two peoples clashed violently but eventually merged, their pantheons were also combined. I later read that that hypothesis had somehow been disproven, but not why or how. And later again, I’ve been told that maybe it’s actually still popular among some scholars.

[@tevanistuff578]

Anyone know how to pronounce Sudreyar? Playing a game with my friend were it is the name of the Viking kingdom under Ivar the boneless and neither of us have been able to find out how its pronounced.

[@CharlesSchaum]

In the Second Merseburg Charm no one really knows who Phol is; Sinthgunt, Sunna's sister and Frija, Volla's sister put spells on the sprained foot of Baldur's foal, but Wodan seems to do the trick because "he well could". It is as if all these personages had been reduced to procedural gods by the time this charm was recorded. This appears to correlate with the common idea of daemonia (sg. daemonium, from δαιμονίον, whose varieties could be good (eudaemonia, agatho) or bad (cacodaemonia). Acts 17:18 uses this Hellenistic idea when the Athenians share their opinion about how they classify this Jesus that Paul is going on about. From the Judeo-Christian standpoint, a δαίμων corresponds a lot with Hebrew tan or tannin, the destructive beasts living in desolate places that bring you to ruin (jackals, saltwater crocodiles, serpents, "dragons") that one sees semantically connected with Azazel and the "scapegoat" sent to him. Satan is thus a "dragon" or "serpent" in the Hebrew sense, but the demons are spirits like the angels who can have either human appearance or bizarre, unnatural shapes that cause fear. Even the angels' appearance can cause fear. Yet when speaking of signs, miracles, and wonders, the Bible usually points to everyday things or items and acts associated with worship that orient one toward Yahweh, far more than an ecstatic "woo" event (the presentation that Luke and you did on magic figures here). The latter events are very rare. The later Christian practice of over-mythologizing saints and miracles indicates that (perhaps influenced by Hinduism and Zoroastrianism; I think about Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita) there arose a need to counter the mundane with the spectacularly holy and supernatural. This definitely seeped into literature about Jesus (as the hero of Der Heliand and Cynewulf's Crist) and others. It is hard to believe that some of this epic re-imagination did not spread to the telling of ancient mythology, some of which was preserved, I suspect, to promote the idea of a Hermes Trismegistus and justifying the Hellenic tradition in light of the Bible, which is very Eastern by contrast.

[@le-chevalier-renaud]

St.Jude is an excellent example, particularly in South America, which has a somewhat syncretic version of catholicism, St.Jude is evoked quite a bit but the only story told about him is the one of his martyrdom.

[@Magius61]

I think this certainly underpins how much we don’t know, and just how much context we can only guess at. There may have been so much more to some of the “big personalities,” procedurally than we can ever guess at, and beautiful and fascinating tales about Gods such as Ullr. We only have snippets.

[@rifelaw]

I wonder if the Almighty is Tyr. He doesn't have much to do other than get his hand bitten off, and he was in that position because of a reputation for honesty that doesn't show up elsewhere.

[@peterknutsen3070]

@Faroe It’s thought, or at least was once thought, that Tyr was the King of the Aesir gods, and that there was one god who combined traits of Odin and Loke… And later that god got split up and ine of the halves took Tyr’s place on the throne. Note also that it’s usually not feasible to be a King if there’s something wrong with you, like Tyr’s missing hand, although as I’m writing this, I just remembered that Odin also has a defect…

[@dulgakhoradunar5548]

Nice point. I would like to add it *seems* that "mythical" gods are more artificial and originally were procedural. What I mean is that mythical gods are created by the skalds/bards/brahmans and only if there is social elite maintaining these myth-makers. Good example is any European country that did not left pre-Christian corpus, even if there should have been one. For example Lithuanians, who were in fact rather similar in Viking era Scandinavians (just replace longships with horses). What we have of pre-Christian Lithuanian religion is exactly one narrative (that does not includes any gods) and few very short mentions of gods in various chronicles made by people who were not very knowledgeable on the subject (f.e.- Hypatian chronicle- the most informed source about 13th century Lithuania, mind you- proclaims "God of Rabbits" to be one of the chief deities). We also have number of deities mentioned in 15-17th centuries by various observers of Lithuanian peasantry (mostly clergy) with- again- varying quality and authorial understanding on the subject. But Lithuanian peasantry continued with cult practices and worship of "precedural" gods up until 20th century in quite literal sense- prayers asking of protection to the fire goddess Gabija (with proper call by name and all) were still in use in the verge of 19-20th centuries. Folktales and stories are also full of images: supreme deity often depicted wandering earth as a beggar, Perkūnas (Thor/Zeus) is ridding the skies in goats drawn carriage and tries to kill Velnias(Hades?) with flint bullets etc. But that's *images*, not narratives. A scene, not a story. In short, practices related to the various gods continued long after any narrative mythology is long gone and even after said gods are no longer worshiped as such. The point of this ramble is that existence of mythical deities requires a constant maintenance by cultural elite, as opposed to "practical" cults of procedural ones: you do not need to know an epic love story about Gabija to pray for her protection against house fire. P.S. I quite consciously said "Lithuanian" rather than "Baltic" because there is a rather distinct differences between Lithuanian, Prussian and Latvian. P.P.S. There is narrative stories in Lithuanian folklore (f.e. "Spruce, Queen of the Grass Snakes"), but they are more like tales of Cú Chulainn and NibelungenLied in that sense that there are no direct reference to pagan deities.

[@vde1846]

This process, the "intellectualizing" and systematization of a multitude of ritual practices, seems the most prominent in Greek mythology. Many gods seem invented to serve a literary function, and don't have any ritual practices associated with them; while many seemingly important ritual gods are jus mentioned in passing and never elaborated upon.

[@dulgakhoradunar5548]

@@vde1846 Indeed, also we could look at works of Greek philosophers and playwrights who never seen a problem to reshape, re-contextualize or outright invent mythological narrative to deliver the point they were making (this "trend" reached its logical conclusion in Gnosticism). And on the other hand, in Rome 15 most important gods- that is, the ones represented in Collegium Pontificum- almost all are procedural ones. Which is exactly Crawford's point- most important gods to worship are not necessary the ones to tell tales about.

[@petalstln]

Awesome hat! 🙂. Luv learning from ur videos!

[@GarrettDore]

Thank you for another wonderful video.

[@JeffersonMills]

Great hypothesis!

[@Nightingrail]

In Northern England / Scotland we have the place names of Ullapool, Ulleskelf, Ullesthorpe and Ullswater. Would these names be connected with Ullr?

[@peterknutsen3070]

Probably. “thorpe” is the distinctively Scandinavian “torp”.

[@JonnyRice1]

First, your channel has been a wealth of information; thank you! Second, is it possible Ullr isn't necessarily a god, but just a higher being used as an objective third party when Gods make deals together? Kind of like an attorney which acts as an objective third party to hold the individuals making the agreement accountable to it?

[@samuelhilfiker3980]

This is a very interesting video and gets me thinking how the Roman world put such a procedural weight on all their gods. Most of the myths that are explicitly Roman are very centered on humans and the oft prayed to gods often had no myths at all (household gods for example). It seems like they would have needed some sort of Mystery Cult to get their more juicy narratives

[@casthedemon]

Belief in a gods existence usually predate the myths about them.

[@innerpull]

Hope we cross paths at some point. I'm sure you're acquainted with Mr. Nordvig. Not sure if you're still in the Boulder area at all. I don't speak / comprehend Old Norse but I'm fluent in Norwegian, so it's all of interest to me.

[@delhatton]

Nice distinction.

[@larryjeffryes6168]

Perhaps they were early grapplings with psychodynamics and personality types. Both explaining and regulating individual behavior. The stories would have to resonate to have power and would portray ideals to aspire to/measure against.

[@bob___]

The category referred to in this video as procedural or ritual seems to be along the lines of what we would think of as religious in modern parlance, with mythology or narrative perhaps being more for entertainment purposes (such as stories told on occasions around certain observances). The procedural or ritual context may never have been written down and therefore is may be lost forever. Mythology might dramatize aspects of ritual, but without the ritual context, there's no way of knowing how.

[@wadestoss3325]

In the Orkney Isles oaths were sworn to Odin/Woden until the 1750s.

[@elmotickleme3501]

According to this typology and Platon’s Symposium, Eros would be a purely mythical god but not at all procedural.

[@inkylynx2777]

If the Norse gods' domains were based on what people prayed and sacrificed to them for, what would their domains be?

[@rebeccaketner816]

People create gods in their own image, to suite their cultural & personal needs at the time. For example in recent years 'La Santa Muerte' has come to popularity out of Mexico

[@shaulkramer7425]

The procedural Gods were so part of the daily fabric, the believers didn't even think to write anything about them, as they assumed they'd always be there, in the habits of the people... One of the few advantages of strict monotheism is that it makes this sort of distinction moot. I love the ideas you expressed here though...

[@nevisysbryd7450]

A lot of Greek mythological entities are procedural-indeed, the genealogy of the gods corresponds to the concept, for the most part. The _protogenoi_ , or 'primordial gods', were largely forces of nature themselves, in contrast to the Titans and especially the Olympians, who moreso took active measures to rule 'over' aspects of the cosmos. Gaia, the Earth itself, was one; others include Time, Death, Fate, Sea, Sky, Day, Night, Aether, Darkness, and many others. And unlike their Olympian progeny, they were largely passive, calmly doing their own thing, whereas the younger generations were more personalities.

[@regnbuetorsk]

there are no teachers for old norse where i live, where should i start if i want to learn by myself? are there "old norse language course" books like the ones for other languages?

[@LunDruid]

Actually come to think of it, consider how rarely Jesus himself shows up in our modern stories, outside of dedicated Christian media, compared to other deities and mythic figures.

[@Oath3knight]

As the majority of what we know comes from Christian writings it makes sense that we know less about procedural gods or at least procedures to do with the gods , as I believe, correct me if I’m wrong

[@stiantnnessen5279]

i have some runes i found south in norway. you wanna help me translate them? '. Kind regards /Viking

[@peterknutsen3070]

There are some Facebook groups that might help.

[@SifuMichaelAshmore]

“Gods” in general I believe to be a pre-modern way to acknowledge what functions were important, what had worth-ship, to a person’s everyday life. The Aesir were, as well as practical functions, also drama queens, apparently!

[@Scareth]

Which is a very sound conclusion. They hade absolutely no means of surely knowing anything in the world. What is the sky? What are those glowing dots up there? What is this smoke we see in the early mornings, and why is the grass wet if it didn't rain last night? To them, there were no other explanations other than a higher power being responsible. It's really the only logical way to make sense of the world at their time. Once they got the gods and divinities figured out, they could figure out who was responsible for what. What makes our crops grow? What makes our weapons find their way to our prey? The gods, of course, and now they have their function in a society. No other explanations needed for them.

[@drakakaka]

People pay way to much attention to words in books, maybe because they are used to a bible and can’t imagine a different approach to religion? The only way to understand it is through the culture and how these stories were told, because they were told, or rather performed, and they weren’t static. If there are no sources about how the gods were worshipped there must be an explanation. The simplest explanation is often the correct one and that explanation is that they didn’t. I would go as far as to say that most people from a christian background wouldn’t even think of it as a religion at all.

[@F1ghteR41]

Can Quirinus serve as a fitting example of a relatively mythologically underrepresented yet clearly important for the practittioners?

[@brianetchieson5958]

Heh. Let's just skip past the fact that Dr. C. is obviously a Genus Loci on his patch in Colorado.

[@bnic9471]

I think I used to date a procedural god here in Vesterheim, a.k.a. Norwegian Central. He was 6'2", eyes of blue, and his last name was Heimdal. He hung around bridges a lot. Ok, that last part wasn't true, but that was his last name, all right. He recounted half-watching the cartoon `Thor' as a kid and hearing the shout "Heimdallr!" come out of the television set.

[@GriffinParke]

I think the Vanir must have been more prominent as Freyr was mentioned as an ancestor of the Ynglings and as a tribal name, as well as elsewhere. Maybe they reflect an older tradition that was becoming subsumed or replaced by the newer cult of the Æsir.

[@huskydogable]

Lake San Cristobal

[@Lucas72928]

Could you talk about the pre-Norse origins of the Nordic gods? I recently watched a video about how the Norse mythology is actually Germanic rather than Norse, and was curious what you had to say about that.

[@peterknutsen3070]

The pagan Saxons had some gods that were similar to the Norse gods, e.g. a Thor-like thunder-god, and an Odin-like Wotan. We don’t know how similar they were, since we lack good sources (there was no Saxon Snorri, nor a Saxon Saxo Grammaticus), but a Scandinavian told about Donar or Wotan would almost certainly have understood them as being Thor and Odin, rather than as being “similar to”.

[@dmakron]

Ignoring the aside that Njordr and Freyr "married down", it seems more likely that they just didn't make as good a story to keep in Snorri's desire to light a fire in his readers. He was politically motivated and Christian. A god like Freyr associated with fertility suggests some prurient stories if other mythos can act as a guide and therefore not something for Snorri to include. I point this out in that besides him having a co-equal representation at Uppsala, Freyr was one of the three principal gods to receive gifts from the dwarves along with Thor and Odin. This is speculation but then so is this constant slight derision towards the Vanir as "lesser gods" that is the subtext on this channel.

[@z.l.burington1183]

Hah, on the note of fertility: there's a fable about Hera and Aphrodite in Aesop's that concerns chastity and women, and it's in the Latin collection as well (with Juno and Venus). Very funny little story. When William Caxon published his English translation in the 15th century, pretty much every other story he told in full. But this one, he refused. It was too dirty for him, and he said that it was better left in Latin where dedicated clerks can study it. Now imagine if Caxton had instead just heard the Fables and collected them, not translated them. Well, then, there would be no other source depicting a story between Venus and Juno with the punch line "no matter how much I have, I will probably continue to scratch".

[@apstrike]

This is a really interesting question. My first reaction is that this is a false dichotomy invented afterwards. There aren't gods based on myths and gods based on procedures. Rather, there are just gods, and those whose stories are remembered are remembered. As a matter of logic, you wouldn't procedurally follow a god who is a good bowman unless you remembered vivid stories of his success with the bow. But as I think on this, I recognize that human beings are not particularly logical, and that they are in fact very superstitious, so it wouldn't surprise me if people remembered to call upon individual gods procedurally in certain situations even when they didn't have rich, sitting around the campfire tales of their exploits. I think the fundamental problem is the disconnect between ancient and modern. If you regularly encounter the unexplained in your daily life then it seems rational to call upon gods or saints for guidance. But if your grow up thinking the human beings have answers to these questions already that it's unnatural to imagine human beings who walk through the world with a mental list of gods to call upon in certain situations.

[@peterhimin8051]

Cool

[@electricmayhem8147]

Hail Ullr!

[@flugit]

So you're removed from Christianity and can't comment on the saints, you made a video saying you were religious but not Norse pagan. Are you Anglo Saxon pagan?

[@troelspeterroland6998]

He actually never discusses personal beliefs on the channel. But generally speaking, it might be worth noting that not feeling competent to discuss saints only reflects an unfamiliarity with a Catholic or Orthodox tradition or another one that operates with saints; not necessarily an unfamiliarity with other Christian traditions without saints.

[@patriciamayhew6321]

@@troelspeterroland6998 exactly. He might have been raised Baptist or Mormon or Unitarian for all we know. Could have left his religion of childhood behind and might now be agnostic or atheist. He has definitely said he is not a believer in modem reconstructed Norse paganism.

[@therat1117]

It's rather rude to speculate on other people's religious beliefs, ne? It is no bad thing to be insufficiently familiar with something to comment on it, even if one were pertinent to a branch of Christianity that acknowledges saints.

[@troelspeterroland6998]

@@therat1117 I completely agree, and it is that speculation that I want to halt by reacting to the comment on a general level. I also very much agree that it is no bad thing to be insufficiently familiar with something to comment on it. Again, on a general level, acknowledgement of one's own ignorance is a prerequisite of eg. producing good science. What I wanted to challenge was the generalising assumption that unfamiliarity with saints equalled an unfamiliarity with Christanity as a whole. But that doesn't necessarily work both ways, of course. It is perfectly possible to feel an affiliation with a certain branch and yet be unfamiliar with its tenets. On a general level.