Unit Design 101 - Mages

[@stetstetstitstreats]

mages gotta be my favorite class ever, i love them, i love my magic babies

[@MythrilZenith]

Something about the young mage turning into a force of destruction makes so much more sense than the young soldier or archer to me.

[@armorbearer9702]

(0:47) *Cough* dark mages

[@MythrilZenith]

Legitimately Sophia would have +30 hit if she was a mage with the exact same stats instead of a shaman because Flux is THAT BAD.

[@thunderknight4149]

4:08 rewarp is also in SoV in the spell list of Delthea and Sonya

[@MythrilZenith]

TECHNICALLY but it's so far deep that you're unlikely to get to it until postgame.

[@thunderknight4149]

@@MythrilZenith True, but grinding exists... (yeah I get that it's a weak argument but hey at least they have it)

[@seliphgaming8662]

Mages, especially sages are probably my favorite classes in most FE games. Also, I’m hearing Starlight from osrs in the background.

[@MythrilZenith]

Got it in one! I love pumping OSRS music into these videos and seeing who calls it out.

[@gus9323]

Thank you for this series. Its helping me in my quest to create a fire emblem like TTRPG

[@MythrilZenith]

Ooh, interesting! I don't play many TTRPGs anymore but I'm always interested in how they execute on their vision. Good luck!

[@Chorkly]

Shout out to Merric being hard 5 viable. Mans flexing on them with that magical muscle.

[@MythrilZenith]

Excalibur does a lot of heavy lifting. E-rank access to it helps him a TON. Though you can make almost any unit viable on the Mage/Dark Mage path. Not good, but viable.

[@Devmon52]

Great coverage of mages! I appreciate that this was split from the magic video to tackle both subjects in their own focus. Mages are a wonderful core concept of Fire Emblem. I really wish there were more interesting types of mages or some wilder variation. The introduction of units that had both might & magic options at once really helped with diversity. While not optimal, I think it'd be neat to see a bulkier mage with a limited 1 range or coming up with other magic modifiers to give magic more diversity. Heck, I could see a dark magic class that modifies regular tomes with additional debuffs. Engage's Surge (guaranteed hit, 1 range) tomes were a cool concept and it was nice to see something new added for magic.

[@MythrilZenith]

There's a lot of unexplored potential space to play around with in regards to mages. That said I don't play a lot of romhacks, so it's highly likely fan games have done that with their own mages.

[@naglfarslayer6367]

Mages always felt like Archers with better damage and 1-2 range. Usually hit, rarely double, and can heal upon promotion. However, it was eye-opening years ago when Mekkah reviewed FE 7 and said, "Between Erk, Lucius, and Canas, only use one." It surprised me how the magic classes tend to collapse into one competition like that, likely since their weapon triangle is irrelevant to 90% of their battles.

[@BTrainStudio]

I feel like mages have so much utility, it's very hard to make them not good. If you compare all of the pros and cons mages can do to archers, it's almost unfair how long the pros list is. Great video!

[@thekoifishcoyote8762]

Mages also have unhindered desert movement, though I don't know if it's universal

[@MythrilZenith]

FE2/SoV they are slowed by desert and I feel like 3H they were as well but for the most part this is true. So yeah, they have like 1, maybe 2 maps per game where they are more mobile than other units.

[@Venomdrad]

I don’t think there are any FE besides Radiant Dawn and maybe POR where mages aren’t at least good. In RD, mages really suffer due to low caps, weak damage on tomes, low movement, and higher res stats on enemies. That’s not even getting into each mage’s individual issues like Tormod’s bad availability or Micaiah's bad speed. Should also mention the lol worthy mechanic of staves being equipped upon use. This wrecks combat potential for healers since they counter attack with 1 might staves from their low strength stat.

[@IWestrada]

RD did an impressive job at making mages struggle. Micaiah is unironically the best mage in RD

[@auraguard0212]

As much as I love all the different magic types existing, I think Jugdral had the right idea with three elements that lend to a certain Mage build; Thunder for Lindes, Wind for Merrics, and Fire for normies. Then FE7 effed it up by making each member of their respective element the opposite of their magic type, resulting in all three being interchangable and the magic feeling like it might as well be one weapon type.

[@MythrilZenith]

Yeah FE7 definitely suffers from feeling like the playable mages are compensating for their magic instead of building on the strengths of their particular section, something FE6 does to a fault but FE8 captures fairly well. Sophia has low skill and speed but high magic growth meaning she eventually hits like a truck but will never actually hit anything reliably ever. Meanwhile, Artur in FE8 has high skill which lines up well with light magic high crit.

[@naotoueda2838]

Classifying the mages is a bit tricky In FE6 I tier them as - glass canon Lilina (one heavy hit) - generalist Raigh (no particular strong point) - speedy Lugh (double the early game, but most of the time is generalist) - bulky Hugh (high HP growths and good base 9 defense) but in FE7 -generalist but with no strong point (erk, nino) - "bulk" (canas) -specialist (lucius c staves) -generalist but with high stats (pent) overral, I think glass canon (stats and/or tome), generalist (balanced stats), tanky mage (nostank or a bit more defense), specialist (weapon rank/ personal tomes) are the tier I mostly use

[@ebicbarton]

What about Niime or Yodel?

[@MythrilZenith]

I didn't want to get too far into the weeds of sub-classification of mages here. Maybe for a follow up tier list I'll subdivide further.

[@Coreyographed]

I've been waiting for this. Go Mages!

[@MythrilZenith]

Time to learn some magic

[@RayehZ]

There is one interesting take i have seen on the SRPG Dark Deity , i used it with the character Monroe where mages have a tier 2 evolution called Battle Mage which have something like 65% def growths and 90% hp, its really fun having whats efectively a General that just bursts lightning damage. So it ends up being like an infantry/heavy armor killer while having low magic res.

[@MythrilZenith]

I'm currently playing through Dark Deity now for the first time. The game is WILD. Not sure how I feel about it yet. It's fun, but filled with rough patches.

[@lunarisaileron9383]

some romhack also has tanky mages or even giving enemy generals access to magic.

[@RayehZ]

@@MythrilZenith For sure! The 4 weapon system i think was good on theory but i always ended up using the balance or strong one. I think some of the map design wasnt that great in that game either, though i wont say which ones in case you're not that far in! (Though in not an expert at design by any means). The sequel is already anounced, i hope they balance things a bit better on it!

[@RayehZ]

@@lunarisaileron9383 I have yet to try any romhacks honestly! Currently just playing unicorn overlord which is amazing so far.

[@kiraangle2823]

Mages are kinda cool in fe, but in shining force, they leverage their aoe magic to become gods ones they get past their trainee period. The strongest u it in SF is basically a maligknight armed but aoe magic

[@MythrilZenith]

Imagining Fire Emblem with true Area of Effect is terrifying. Engage gave us a taste, and it's addicting.

[@kiraangle2823]

@@MythrilZenith completely recomend, units have MP though, so you cant do it forever!

[@neongrey333]

hahaha same hat domingo is one of my favourite characters to use in any game ever

[@jackattack3246]

Yes favorite class has arrived. Also do you plan on making any content on Unicorn Overlord? Seems like it’s getting rave reviews

[@MythrilZenith]

Still debating on UO. Will definitely be picking it up and playing it, but not sure if I'll end up making content on it, or what that content would look like if I did. I want to play the game off stream on my own time though.

[@MaddMoke]

Now I want to do an all magic run of Three Houses. See how effective that could be

[@MythrilZenith]

My Silver Snow Maddening NG+ run wasn't ALL mages, but I did have like 5 gremories. It was petty fun.

[@stetstetstitstreats]

i did it, it's not that effective

[@grauenritter9220]

big tanky mages make you a raid boss.

[@MythrilZenith]

I could see Pent take on 40 adventures single-handedly

[@neongrey333]

well that explains Pandemonium

[@SinNun-tx5jp]

FE1 Linde is a monster! She 2HKOs any generic enemy that isnt literally immune to magic thanks to Aura!

[@MythrilZenith]

FE1 spell system was weird but I've grown to love it. Would never function in a game where Res exists like a normal stat though.

[@junihitomiya3182]

Omfg you used osrs RuneScape music called twilight!!! I know that track anywhere

[@MythrilZenith]

Technically used Starlight, not Twilight, but similar vibes. Might use that one next depending on what units I talk about.

[@rayquazathenoodledragon9630]

something about mages is that they tend to struggle a lot againts other mages as often enemy sages and bishops have absurdly high res compared to the magic units of the player so in those cases is probably the best idea to send a physical fighter to deal with them, for example in FE4 all mages not counting Claude and his son, Deirdre and julia have awful res growth of 10%

[@MythrilZenith]

Yeah mage vs mage wars stalling out into pool noodle fights is why I firmly believe the magic triangle coming back is a waste of time. It does lend itself to a weird state of some units being countered hard when you're a mage with low resistance.

[@neongrey333]

so here's where i go back to my little-kid days and think of shining force, which i try not to do when thinking of fire emblem because hooooo boy do the differences extend a lot further beyond the resurrectable-units aspect that shining force has (what i do find very funny on the similarities side is that both series were inspired by different RTS/rpgs... by the same developer) anyway what got me thinking of it here is how those games both do their magic, where it's broadly similar in that magic is generally for getting around certain defenses (be it direct defense, a weakness to hit, w/e) and for BIG NUMBERS potential... but what shining force also does is give mages the province of _AoE attacks,_ something fire emblem is typically really loathe to give to the player. Now this obviously is owed primarily to the differences in map and enemy design philosophy but it is something that surprised me when I first started playing FE. I still tend to heavily prioritize the unit type in both series, though, heh. anyway for once i'm not actually going anywhere with this, I just thought of it and was like 'you know what? that's kinda neat'

[@MythrilZenith]

Engage is the most AoE the player has ever been given in FE and it's insane how much the player can do with just a handful of limited-use-per-battle attacks.

[@neongrey333]

@@MythrilZenith yeah it's absolutely huge, i can't get enough of it in engage lmao one of the things in shining force that balances it out is much higher enemy bulk across the board; one-shotting is not nearly so much a thing there (and counterattacking isn't at all, with rare exceptions in 2), so way different. still super powerful but not nearly as much of a gamechanger

[@auraguard0212]

There are three Mage builds: - High Speed/Skill and no Magic, also known as "the Merric" (good in most games, generally not good in Engage) - High Magic and no Speed/Skill, also known as "the Linde" (generally not good in most games, fun in Engage) - The regular guy with a prepromote-esque stat spread (generally either unimpressive or very good, Pandreo in Engage)

[@MythrilZenith]

Pretty much.

[@maxthemagelord5757]

Actually Linde has high Skill and Speed in most of her incarnations, the only exception to that is FE11 where she has a higher Magic growth than Skill and Speed, though her base Skill and Speed are still better than her Magic.

[@rattyxoxo7397]

Honestly I’d rather a mage in Engage had high speed but mid magic than the other way around, because of how Celica is so incredibly good at fixing damage and compared to Lyn is far less competed for. If you do spend the Augment Crystals on upgrading Seraphim’s might, Celica gives a 30 might tome against basically every enemy when you get her back, on top of +5 magic and +3 tome damage from Resonance. Sure Lyn can give +15 speed with maxed Speedtaker, but that requires getting 5 separate player phase kills whereas anybody engaged with Celica starts popping off turn 1. Seraphim is a big part of her damage, so she’s a lot weaker when not engaged, but her just having Favourite Food means the user gets like 8 turns of Seraphim spam with only a 1 turn break to eat, so the only real issue with running a fast but weaker Mage over a strong but slower mage is that Celica has far worse availability than Lyn does.

[@ussgordoncaptain]

I would think of boey/mae as generalist combat units, with the early wells they(or rather one of them) can ORKO all (or nearly all) of the early brigands in 2-2/2-3/2-4 and are your best combat unit against the cantor in cantor boat, the arcs in arc boat and can ORKO the weaker enemies in merc boat. They have solid bulk mostly due to the leather shield, which mostly patches up fire's HP drain boey has better bulk and 85 accurate fire compared to mae's better attack but worse bulk, but with some careful positioning+healing mae can still go to town thanks to the leather shield. (the one frustrating thing is mae can't really do the engage 3 mercs at once thing that boey can.) They do kinda fall off in the desert but if you promote them with the seabound shrine EXP wells+golden apple they can use the recover spell on leon and have decent combat against any enemy they can reach, which they do struggle with sometimes, but shove and 3 range spells can come in clutch. TLDR: Boey/Mae are glass cannons that stop being glass thanks to the leather shield.

[@MythrilZenith]

Boey and Mae are great. I'm not in deep with the SoV meta, I love that game to death but I've only played through it twice, but I'm glad to see they can be put to better use than early tier listers (including myself, cringe) gave them credit for.

[@orelas167]

This was a fun video.

[@MythrilZenith]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Thunder_Mage]

My most radical FE opinion that I think cavalry mages were a mistake. In D&D, it is explained that mages cannot wear heavy armor because doing so is too physically taxing and interrupts spell channeling. The same case could potentially be made for riding on horseback being too distracting. I understand that in games that have both Sages and Mage Knights, the former is granted staff utility while the latter is considered to have better combat, especially in all contexts where mages are primarily player phase units. I don't like the idea of cav mages being better than infantry at anything, which ultimately makes me prefer that they not exist at all. I think blame for their conception can be 100% attributed to Genealogy's experimental game design necessitating a mounted mage class in order for them to do anything that doesn't involve long-range staves.

[@MythrilZenith]

Interesting take. I think consolidating mages to be infantry only definitely encourages them to be more powerful, and makes magic feel like a more overall specialty weapon type rather than just another one to mix in. You see it far more with enemy placement in map design than for player units, as cavalry mages are still at least somewhat rare and in player hands their downsides are often more easily manifest, but as far as enemies are designed it tends to just add more to the monotony of "it's all cavalry but some of them use magic," Though also in enemy hands you can argue that advantages from higher mobility are less impactful than in player hands, so it might be kind of a wash.

[@eugentraista9222]

fire emblem has nothing to do with Dungeon and Dragons. Weird comparison

[@Thunder_Mage]

@@eugentraista9222 The reason I brought it up is because otherwise there's no lore reason why FE can't also have armored mages, other than to follow this pre-established convention in RPGs (besides Jugdral Barons which are an enemy-only class exclusive to bosses). Obviously for the sake of gameplay balance you might say "it's too lenient to allow mages, who deal the most consistent damage, to also have access to high defense", and my response is that if so, then it is likewise too lenient to allow mages to ride a mount IMO.

[@eugentraista9222]

@@Thunder_Magethere are armored mages tho. Maliq knights in fates are armored knights on wyverns that can use axes and magic. They are pretty tanky as well, example being camilla. There is also dark knight which is a tanky mage on a horse wearing armor.

[@Thunder_Mage]

@@eugentraista9222 By "armored" I'm referring to classes like Great Knight that are specifically labeled as "armored" and weak to armorslaying weapons. Come on I shouldn't have to clarify this.

[@jemolk8945]

Mages are my favorite type of character in any game they exist in, not just Fire Emblem or SRPGs. In FE, I always particularly enjoy using the glass cannon mages. Specifically, the ones with crazy high magic like Linde, Lilina, Micaiah, and what Soren and Ilyana are actually both surprisingly close to being in Path of Radiance, despite the magic nerfs. The late-game training project mages could be awesome fun, too, but they really need a payoff -- significantly higher growths, for example. Nino, I find, feels pretty bad to use, just because she reaches her full potential... as a second Pent... just in time to do almost nothing to Nergal in what could otherwise have been a really cool story moment for her. Sophia, likewise, but not because she is hard to train -- that's fine -- but because all that training never actually goes anywhere. She never actually breaks through to become godlike. Her peak is becoming a functional unit like any other, which just feels awful for a hard training project. The more generalist mages aren't very interesting, though, unless it's their unique properties making them generalists in a novel way -- Nosferatu tanking, for example, is pretty awesome, but just having high def on a sage gets boring fast.

[@MythrilZenith]

Mages almost always end up being fun to use. Even if they're not the best units, if I can create a squad of player-phase delete buttons I'll hamstring myself in order to make it so.

[@HanakkoLove]

Hey, cool video!

[@perr0263]

1-2 range, targeting the lowest defensive stat, healing capabilities...

[@MythrilZenith]

Yeah, a pretty broken kit, even without crazy stats to back it up.

[@Alban_Blade_Memer]

My favorite class (because summoner are mage)

[@letsmakeit110]

Berwick Saga really nerfed mages with its unique mechanics. They maintain their squishyness, which ends up being crippling without a designated player phase/enemy phase. It's too situational to have them able to attack and have no enemies around to attack them afterward, even if they 1-round. And because of injuries/crippling being tied to % of HP loss, even if they're just bulky enough to not get 1-shot, they're likely to end up doomed anyway. This leaves them confined to a niche of "armored units and dragons with no other enemies around" which is only relevant in a handful of situations.