NAND vs MASK ROMS

[@spiderprime]

This is why I support the emulation scene for backups or else a lot of these games would be lost to time.

[@leonidasvonsparta]

It's a shame that ppl made games and they are lost in time

[@RTU130]

Right

[@Ay-xq7mj]

You mean piracy lol. Only rule of piracy is dont talk about it in emu forums and chats.

[@nojuanatall3281]

It's not piracy if you already own the game. A better comparison would be burning a CD for yourself so you don't damage your original. Or putting your music on an mp3 player.

[@mustangmckraken1150]

@Ay Even if it is piracy if Nintendo is stupid enough to not offer their games for sale on a modern system I have a Pi that can run it for free 🤷‍♂️ And no, their Online service doesn't count. Not about to give themva single cent for peer-to-peer multiplayer and to 'rent' the games I want to buy.

[@ancientandbored]

Straight to the point, and without being a click bait. You gained a subscriber, Sir!

[@Xale007]

yeah not like those big youtuber always talking for nothing. That's the real KZbin

[@trfozty]

Yesir one more subber 🤣

[@rgfdg4y46]

Same here, just subbed. Enjoyed the technical talk. Now I am afraid to look at my Wii U as that has been unplugged for a very long time.

[@marekrakowski]

It's a great vid and point of view, but no offense: "Why Wii U's are dying" sounds pretty click-baity to me.

[@SeanUCF]

@@marekrakowski Title is NAND vs MASK ROMS, not "Why Wii U's are dying".

[@ThirdXavier]

definitely something is very wrong with the WiiU itself because the original Wii also uses NAND flash and mine I got in 2006 worked perfectly after sitting in a drawer for nearly 10 years, also I've never heard of this issue with the Wii

[@packers12to80]

Yeah I was gonna say. The wii works no problem. But I also don't think this is a across the board issue either. I haven't touched my wii u in years...yet I tried it out the other day and it works just fine. So really don't think it's a across the board thing.

[@waterup380]

I think it had to do with an update the Wii U got.

[@shoug8387]

@@packers12to80 from what I could tell, it's stemming from a bad batch of Samsung eMMC chips used in (supposedly) Wii Us manufactured at the start of the console's lifespan

[@RetroArcadeGuy]

The Wii doesn't use flash to install and play games from...

[@ThirdXavier]

@@RetroArcadeGuy it does :) WiiWare and Virtual Console games

[@JogosMofados]

This has been observed on DS games as well, some preservation groups were dumping sealed games and they had severe errors reading the games.

[@RaisonLychi]

Nooo😟

[@ArtisChronicles]

Well that's perfect. Some of my old DS games are gonna be problematic. Glad I got a flash cart after all.

[@TehChozen1]

Welp, that's what they get for opening sealed games.

[@user-mf7jy3on3z]

@@TehChozen1 so youre saying they dont deserve to be opened and played

[@TehChozen1]

@@user-mf7jy3on3z "I didn't live through the war just to die in Sand Island." (a ghetto neighborhood in Mafia II) - Vito Scaletta, 1945

[@PhoticSneezeOne]

I can not stress this enough how soothing and relaxing it is to hear someone speak calmly and directly to the point about a topic without forced jokes, adhd body language, crappy sponsor transitions and so on! This is what youtube used to be and should return to (let me at least dream a little bit) Thank you Cellcade !!! (Subbed)

[@jonnyalec5646]

Why throw adhd body language in there? People with adhd shouldn’t be on KZbin? What a dumbass comment.

[@digitalclown2008]

ADHD body language is a weird thing to have an issue with but yes aight

[@AntiJewluminatiDwarf]

Indeed idc what people say or think youtube was never meant to be a "career" or primary means of income . Used to be done for the passion just because, money truly is the root of all evil and destroys creativity

[@jonnyalec5646]

@@AntiJewluminatiDwarf keep screaming at clouds old man, having a career making content on the internet was inevitable.

[@pogman15]

well said

[@AcidDotDrop]

That's why I haven't and will never have any remorse of "pirating" or dumping a game I bought a physical version of, since all of them , even CD's, will be unusable at some point.

[@LennyQUMFIF]

You know you can still archive it to something like a google drive right?

[@hyperfusiongear9050]

Nothing last forever just enjoy your game's until you die or turn into ash lol.

[@jfitnesshealth]

@@Billy_Souls not stealing, backing up.

[@javiersaneiro6412]

​@@Billy_Souls It can't never be stealing if he has already paid for the game. Read again, he has not said anything about download pirates copies of games that he never bought, he explicitly mention games he already legally bought.

[@Just_Shaun]

Why does it matter? For me, I don’t feel much remorse for pirating a bunch of games that I actually don’t own, why? Because I buy physically and used physical game sales do nothing for the company. I do however feel remorse for the hundreds and thousands of people spending 1000s of their hard earned money on these games when the alternative is honestly just as quick if not quicker than sitting through 100s of game downloads. You don’t need to buy everything because they have already been preserved online. But don’t get angry at people for doing it. We have more important things to spend our money on. Perhaps it’s just justification for wasting tons of money on decade old games that will inevitably be repackaged/resold for a premium price… it’s not all one-sided.

[@mizzanni]

Incredibly informative video! I'm glad that my algorithm picked this up, you deserve more subscribers!

[@WarioSaysSo]

Thank you my good sir for giving us not so fine-technical knowing people some very good informations and explanation on this reported issue. It is very scary for a Wii U owner who have a lot of games and files stored on the system. This was straight to the point, and without being a cheap click bait. You gained another subscriber, Sir!

[@waluigi43]

I agree with you brother.

[@WarioSaysSo]

@@waluigi43 Fantastic Waluigi!

[@sjm4306]

The thing about flash is just powering the chip isn't usually enough to "recharge" the leaky memory. You usually have to force the memory controller to read every byte so it can run ecc and rewrite bad bits (well actually blocks). But this also wears the flash. Flash just isn't optimal for long term storage.

[@V3ntilator]

This is why i still use USB HDD for backup and they are only connected when used. This way they lasts for decades. I even have HDD's from 1990's that still work, but is only useful for retro due to low storage space of 1.GB etc. Back in 1990's Tape Streamers were popular on PC, so i have over 25 x 250.MB tapes which i will probably never check again...

[@Bustermachine]

@@V3ntilator IIRC, HDD drives can also suffer degradation across the platter, especially as the data density goes up.

[@V3ntilator]

@@Bustermachine Yes, but it's luck based. Only one USB drive ever failed. There is good and bad production lines.

[@Null_Experis]

the error correction re-writes won't degrade it appreciably, it would take thousands of re-writes to damage it in any real way, and with a proper flash chip these cells hold data for 20-30 years, so they'll outlast your entire lifetime if you have the means to refresh them. I think a hacked console ripping the game would be sufficient to "read" every cell and refresh them manually every 10 years. Having a collection like this means you need to do periodic maintenance if you want it to last long-term.

[@viridionwaves]

I read one person say actually using the chip for an hour should be enough to force the chip to rewrite or check all bits. Not sure if that is true though.

[@keithbeard5337]

So great this video blew up for you, best of luck man!!!

[@harveysattic3918]

This was a incredibly well put together video, thank you for clearing things up!

[@Leeki85]

Mask ROMs had also one huge advantage. It was much faster than RAM back then with much lower latency. The biggest problem in the 80's was that RAM wasn't fast enough to transfer frame buffer data to CRT display. In other words RAM couldn't keep up with electron beam of CRT display. This is why 8-bit and 16-bit computers had limited colors or other limitations. 1987 VGA had 256 KB of video RAM, but it allowed linear addressing just for 64 KB modes, because it saved the frame buffer to all 4 chips and read them in parallel. NES, SNES and other ROM based consoles had no such issues. Consoles in general had very little RAM. NES had 2 KB, while C64 had 64 KB. SNES had 256 KB while Amigas had 1+ MB of RAM and 4 MB of RAM become a minimum requirement on PC really soon. ROM would simply act as a next-gen RAM allowing operations that were impossible on computers. This is why Nintendo decided to use cartridges in N64. Many later games stored uncompressed textures on N64 cartridge since it was the only method to get highly detailed textures on this console. N64 had RAM with huge latency that made it almost unusable for texturing. Later, RAM speeds improved to the point that there was no benefit of using ROMs and cartridge based systems switched to flash storage.

[@Nikku4211]

SNES actually had 128 kiB of RAM, not 256.

[@brkbtjunkie]

Amazing description!!

[@illusionofmana_Personal]

Mask ROM is still very much possible these days. Its extremely simple to design over NAND, BUT off the shelf options tend to be cheaper... even if Nintendo went with something like fuse blown EPROM which would require a device to do a forever burn in of the rom at factory. There are also different flash types, lots of people who like to make repro's specially older repros still use the NOR Flash format which is in cases more durable than its NAND sibling. NOR is even preferred in industrial equipment and computer motherboard bios ROMs. But capacity may be an issue with NOR.

[@cellprocessing6832]

Thanks I learned alot. I will have to look that up

[@michaellynch8612]

I subscribed because he's straight up gets to the point with no gimmicks and begging

[@Hatosan_]

Thanks for taking the time to make this amazingly informative video! ✨

[@MatticusFinch1820]

I had my Wii U uplugged forever lol this video made me go run and plug it back in, thankfully it still works. Good to know info, thanks!

[@viridionwaves]

Thanks for the informative video. It seems NAND flash degrades in two ways. The charge it holds slowly dies (requiring you to use it occasionally), but also it has a limited number of read/write cycles. So not only does time do the job, it seems reading/writing accelerates the loss/error rate. Switch games seem to use Macronix hybrid flash XtraROM, which according to their marketing could last as long as 20 years at 85°C. However that's at the long end and with high temperature. How that plays out in the real world is anyone's guess. I had no idea games after the n64/GBA era would degrade like this. Gives a whole new meaning to emulation. So much for buying switch games physical so I could play them in 20-30 years if I wanted to... Guess I'll have to start backing up Roms

[@KeinNiemand]

As far as I know there only a limited number of write cycles not a limited number of read cycles

[@panikk2]

I think the 20 years at 85c figure would mean that under bad conditions it would last 20 years. Under real conditions it should last longer. As long as a switch game is turned on once a decade the charge gates should be fine.

[@nirgunawish]

i think dumping digital titles is gonna be less reliable of a preservation method just like with 3ds

[@viridionwaves]

@@nirgunawish What do you mean? A hard drive will preserve data many decades longer than a flash based cart or ssd. Having the rom files is the best way forward as far as I can tell

[@luckysgi-5karrow378]

We still need those physical carts to even attempt dumping though. No doubt over time it will get harder to dump digital purchases with certain brews.

[@luchoortega-vl7ng]

That's why backing up games is so important

[@ドリフト180X]

Emulation is important for preservation, because physical things degrade over time, just the way of things sadly.

[@cascadepinball]

Agreed. I am glad we have FPGA now for generation I grew up with.

[@LastGamer]

Great video and very much to the point.

[@cascadepinball]

Thanks like your videos too

[@sneakingelephant]

This was an excellent video. You covered the topic without any bait or filler. Subbed!

[@vladiatorfilms4329]

Interesting info, super high quality production, keep it up 👍🏼

[@AHeroInHell]

Thank God I've always kept my Wii U plugged in after hearing this.

[@EffySalcedo]

Great explanation with top notch audio ! Its a pleasure to listen 🍹😌

[@yellowlemon123]

Really good explanation here. Thanks so much for explaining it in an easy-to-understand way.

[@cascadepinball]

Glad it was helpful!

[@pwnswoggle]

great video mate, thanks for explaining it all so clearly for those of us that aren't familiar with it all

[@cascadepinball]

No problem 👍

[@MAXPAYNE485]

Great lesson in what QUALITY stands for. Good stuff!

[@Usagizaka46]

Great to know. Thanks a lot. I got a bit antsy when I saw the report yesterday. But considering that my babies are usually plugged in and sometimes used, I guess I’ve not too much to worry about. Thanks again!

[@fermio100]

It's almost as if it was engineered to break.

[@cascadepinball]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. This really is a small issue most of you don't need to worry to much about. I though I made that clear. But if not I am sorry. I have also learned so much from all of you. So I learned from Dakota J in the comments that there is fuse blown EPROM's that last far longer. And maybe the switch is using those for there game carts. But I did see this as a interesting jumping off point talking about memory types and games preservation. I tend to focus around video games console and arcade, and pinball. So I hope you guys enjoy that as well. Thanks for giving the channel a shot. Even if its does not end up being you're thing.

[@leon4000]

Thank you for that. I still persist to people when I can in real life and in cyberspace to always back up your stuff in case something happens to consoles like the Wii U. Even more so, now that we are 20 days away from the eshop closing for good for the Wii U and 3DS. After they go away, only homebrew is the way to go to access games. Unless Nintendo has a better way for us to enjoy 3DS games.

[@komborekt7016]

Subbed brother

[@TransCanadaPhil]

@@leon4000 The only issue is that it's really hard to make a good backup of your hacked Wii-U's external Hard drive at least compared to a hacked regular Wii. They used a custom formatted file system with the Wii U that isn't readable on the PC. On the original Wii you could just use a standard file system and see the .wbfs files on there and simply back it up on any PC. On the Wii-U, you have to go through its own slow menu to make a duplicate and the backup takes forever. If you don't have the original .WUP files anymore for your WiiU games it's a pain. On the 3DS, it's also pretty easy to keep backups of the original CIA files that you can easily reinstall on a hacked 3DS, or use the conversion tool to decrypt them to 3DS files that can be played on the Citra emulator.

[@bubmario]

I really appreciate the way you broke those all down, and now are responding in the comments to address any tweaks and corrections that are needed. It's great to be sharing knowledge of how to preserve these games!

[@Valoric]

Can you “recharge” the switch carts by using them? Or does charges only work on writes not reading?

[@radio2299]

I saw someone mention their Wii U died on twitter yesterday and then this video popped up for me today, so I decided to watch it. My Wii U has been stored away for a few years, but thankfully it still worked when I booted it up. Thanks for the info!

[@cascadepinball]

Just something to be aware off. But failures are still really low. While it is corrupt NAND causing the issue. It been narrowed down to a bad batch of nand that made it in a few Wii U's or a software glitch. There is no reason to think it may not works for many years to come.

[@Serjo777]

@@cascadepinball That's still not very reassuring, since they're still going to go bad _eventually_ according to what you said.

[@cascadepinball]

@@Serjo777 nothing lasts forever. All good things

[@teogabrielsson4717]

I actually think its a issue we do *need* to worry about. This might be a way for Nintendo to implement "planned obsolescence" in their games and consoles to make us have to purchase the same thing again and again. I want quality when I purchase something. I do not want to think about my items degrading and being useless after 10 - 15 years. We are doing us a huge disservice if we do not hold large brand accountable for problems like these. It's now we need to speak up and demand better construction.

[@simonbellmont]

I completely agree with you. WTF. It is also very concerning that “not being worried” because we still get 10-20 years is BS. It damn near excepting of this new turn.

[@chamber_hiro256]

Really wish the people who whine about piracy could hear this message. I ain't too concerned about losing my games, I can get them back as long as people have a will and a way. I will never bow to the copyright law when it comes to my old games

[@rodrigooyanedel]

Wii u obsolesce was instant, bro

[@qactustick]

Not for nothing, but you don't have to worry about digital games 'degrading'. Digital does have its own 'anti consumer' flaws, but degradation at least isn't one of them.

[@right_hand_power7960]

Digital license laws need to be made more consumer friendly.

[@MajinWamu]

Very informative. Thank you. I haven't touched my Wii U for many years. Now I know, if I ever boot it up again. I wont be surprised.

[@shorty1k]

I forsee me in my 90s doing ritualistic gameplay sessions to keep my current Wii-U alive.

[@anthonya824]

Nice explanation! I appreciate the depth you went into, it taught me some stuff

[@Jerry4050]

Dude thanks for the info I am so glad I have my Wii U plugged in the guest room of my house and connected to a PC Monitor and play it some days from ever dieing and have Breath of the Wild on it which Im so glad I can play it more since its not hogging my other TVs with my other consoles. If I had it stashed in a closet and found out, it was bricked I would been so pissed. Still use my Wii U till this day glad I bought it back in 2016 and not day one.

[@matthew8153]

This is the computer equivalent of the “We’ve gone too far, turn back” evolution meme.

[@marksutter182]

I'm so thankful that I've always kept my system as part of my TV setup.

[@evv4198]

neat explanation!!!!! really hard to find such a clear video today on youtube...new subscriber here! thanks

[@DJHEADPHONENINJA]

Wii U finally ended it's own life while sitting in the storage feeling unloved for so long. Sadge

[@fernandosepulveda7297]

We have to love our consoles.

[@speedyink]

Great video! I like the idea of at least getting the discussion going on this sorta thing, and if there are any types of media or hardware that is susceptible it would be good to know which ones. Subbed, like your channel!

[@cascadepinball]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Shendue]

Thanks for the very informative video. It happened to my Wii U. I turned it on after not using it for one or two years and it started updating, but then an error code appeared and it still does. Asked Nintendo about repairing it, which is a service still available in my country, I sent my console to the repair service but they asked me 200 Euros. I would buy a used one, which is much much cheaper, but it's unfortunately fairly hard to find one that isn't very scratched. Since mine is in good condition, I also thought to buy one and then put the outer shell of mine on it, but turns out they used small thin flimsy vinyl adhesive squares to cover the screws, instead of plastic lids, therefore if you open a Wii U, those thin squares have to be removed first, and by removing them, you unavoidably ruin them. Even tried to see on the internet if someone sells replacements, but there's nobody. Therefore I can only: 1- Stick with my broken Wii U 2- Replace my Wii U with a scratched one 3- Replace my Wii U with another one and mount its shell on it, but the resulting console will have the screws visibles, with no vynil covers I wouldn't mind that much, but the fact is that it's a limited collector's edition of Zelda Wind Waker, therefore having it estetically compromised would damage its value.

[@simonbellmont]

Dang!!!

[@RetroReef]

This is super informative. Thank you, Man!

[@TriVoxel]

I love my Wii U, and I'm starting to feel like a concerned parent lol

[@matthewbloise2155]

Great video, and speaking as somebody who has spent thousands of dollars on physical Switch games, a bit terrifying.

[@joemck85]

On the handheld side of things, Gameboy, GBC and GBA games are mask ROM, DS and 3DS are NAND flash. In general if it's mask ROM, the game's product code is stamped on the chip inside the cartridge, while NAND flash chips will just have a standard part number from whatever company they bought the empty chips from.

[@jnharton]

The mask ROM chips have a game product code on the label because they cannot be erased/reprogrammed and are manufactured specifically for the customer (e.g. Nintendo).

[@Eternalduoae]

Thanks for the video! Good job!

[@parski]

Absolutely dumping my NAND now. Thanks for the heads up.

[@BarryVP12]

I have copies of the The Avenging Spirit reproductions and they were not cheap. Thank you for pointing out that these limited edition copies may have a shorter than expected lifespan.

[@AiOinc1]

1:50 In case you weren't aware, flash memory is also produced by way of photolithography. If someone really wanted to have the maximum possible amount of storage, a mask ROM would still be more efficient per-bit for a particular size of wafer. The advantage of flash memory, however, is that it's contents can be easily and fairly rapidly changed after the initial write, NOT that they are more dense. The other primary concern with any type of flash memory, however, is that it's life is very finite. They have a set number of write cycles before they begin to degrade and eventually will become read only.

[@thebreakfastmegapowers]

I had my Wii U unplugged in a box for around 8 years while moving and when I returned it to the shelf was able to continue Mario 64 like it was never off. Shame to hear that this is a problem some have, I certainly love mine

[@cattysplat]

There is a lot of luck if you randomly have a bad machine or not.

[@Mitsuraga]

Seems to be the same in SEGA Saturn collecting circles, regarding things like disc rot and laser disc readers breaking down. I got my Saturn and a couple games from a guy who left it in a shed since 1998 with no climate control or anything, and it still works perfectly. I hear horror stories from people who do everything to keep their system and games in pristine condition, but face these problems that have never been an issue for me.

[@commscan314]

@@Mitsuraga Laserdiscs fall apart as the glue reacts to oxygen gas, simply because there's no edge to seal the glue away from the oxygen.

[@j022082p]

You sir, look like Jim Duggan. That is all. Good day.

[@llpk]

No bull, and appreciated the N64 comment at the very end. Worth a sub, look forward to more discussion like this.

[@Atobitfrom65th]

you look like my grandmother's neighbor Shawn and that's awesome, quick sub from me. also enjoyed the insightful video, I'll now worry about all my switch games I haven't played in years.

[@kennyloiaconoattanasiofami1116]

I learned something! Thanks great video and I am glad I kept my wiiu plugged in!

[@GELTONZ]

Amazing video that answered a TON of my questions as I was also wondering about the data longevity of repro carts and Switch cartridges. VERY interesting. Fingers crossed the ever vigilant Nintendo emulation community creates an easy Wii U reflashing solution in the near future.

[@Rab1dGAMER]

Sounds like back in the day when Flash Drives became more mainstream some manuals actually said you must plug it in periodically to avoid the NAND degrading.

[@DigiEggz]

Thank you for the straightforward and concise info. Look forward to more!

[@NewportBox100s]

I’ve gone all digital and I ain’t going back.. I still buy blu rays and CD’s occasionally

[@VLikaru]

Thanks a lot, I learned a lot from this video alone

[@alfredoalbert7032]

Thanks for the explanation. Greetings from Spain :)

[@stonecoldpes6]

i talked about it on my channel for the french audience too .Keep doong a good job man!

[@marc-andrechevrette3420]

I discovered old Game boy cartridges, been put away since....1995. All my saved games are still there, I was amazed. It was like opening a time capsule...

[@cascadepinball]

Back em up

[@Ckoz2829]

The poor Wii U just can’t catch a break.

[@Masters-rc9sc]

Almost like it was planned.

[@mottzilla4858]

Your reproductions (SNES, Gameboy) are unlikely to use NAND flash. They probably use NOR flashrom. Sometimes hand made reproductions might use EPROM or EEPROM. But Parallel NAND flash I don't believe is very common in the sizes for old games like that. And the memory needs to be a parallel memory and not serial for those systems. The failing Wii-U could be related to defective flash memory used. It may not have been outright defective so it passed QA, but it's actual service life may have been shortened by undetected defects. Or as I believe you suggested, poor software could have a bug causing issues. MaskROMs are great, but there is a big startup investment. To be worth it you need to be able to sell a fairly large quantity of units. Reproduction runs, licensed or not, may not be able to reach the numbers to warrant a MaskROM production. Also if any modifications are made or it's a brand new creation and a bug is discovered then those MaskROMs are junk if the bug is serious. With programmable memory you could recall units and reprogram the chips. There is atleast one NES game that had a bug in the MaskROM which in order to not throw away probably thousands of MaskROMs they added essentially a mini game genie to patch the ROM in real time to get around the bug. I wish I remembered what game it was, but it has happened. One last thing with MaskROMs sometimes they do appear to die. But I've seen cases where you can get them working again sometimes by adding an external resistor to the affected signal line. It just depends how exactly it has failed. But they do tend to be very reliable.

[@evanbowman4065]

I've made some gba games, and repro gameboy cartridges on the market mainly consist of a NOR flash chip + a CPLD and sometimes an sram chip. In fact, some people in Asia making pirated copies of games hack code onto roms to write save data to an unused address range of the nor flash chip itself rather than to sram, so that they can save money by not putting a battery on the pcb. This of course degrades the repeatedly erased sector of the nor flash faster than usual.

[@ndnixlon9548]

@@evanbowman4065 It's mainly the Pokémon romhacks that writes it's save in the NOR chip instead. Dumping the save in these types of ROMs is a different story compared to traditional ones.

[@brianthomason5022]

thought we all knew the Wii u was dead the moment it came out? I was definitely smart enough to never get one

[@tobyzilla2.074]

You know thanks for telling me this when down the road if my thangs have problems I can learn how to reflash my consoles

[@joelsaravia1028]

You sir were very informative!! Thank you

[@GameBoyGuru]

This makes me wonder how feasible it would be now that we're just over a decade out from the Wii U launch, could a replacement NAND flash chip be parodied to allow for a significant upgrade to the system storage? For example, could there be a replacement NAND that could give us 512GB or even 1TB of internal storage for the console?

[@cascadepinball]

Well most SSD's get there mass storage by pairing many chips together. I think 512 GB chips are still really expensive. And a 1TB most definitely is. I am always amazed at what the modding community does. So I would not count them out. But most likely no. It would just be more simple and easy to mod it to use an external drive with USB like the Wii was.

[@GameBoyGuru]

@Cellcade I'm thinking more long term. If the NAND that Nintendo used in the Wii U was lower quality, could it be replaced with the same size chip with larger capacity to extend the life of the console?

[@cascadepinball]

@@GameBoyGuru I would keep an eye on the homebrew scene. I really would not know.

[@scaryhobbit211]

@@cascadepinball In Spawn Wave's recent video, he showed there was someone who soldered an SD card to his Wii U and that replaced his NAND. It looks like crap and most people probably won't want to do exactly what he did, but apparently it _is_ possible.

[@cascadepinball]

@@scaryhobbit211 Sweet good to know. If that happened the last few days I missed it. Took the weekend for myself.

[@Changanator]

Me laughing at everyone else cause ive had my wiiu plugged in this whole time

[@Wrekkshoppe]

Wii U stop working because they know that they're among the worst consoles ever manufactured, so they try to off themselves in order to get thrown in the landfill where they belong. Thus ending the nightmare of mediocrity for good.🤣

[@OldManGamin_OMG]

Planned obsolescence

[@dyllburg]

Very informative! Tysm

[@lw1391]

Great video. So my question is: what kind of precautionary and preventative action can current Wii U owners take? Should it be powered every so often? Should it be played periodically (eg once a year)? Is there some kind of test to see if its a vulnerable model? Some specific guidance would be really helpful here. I love my console and want it to remain functional as long as possible.

[@zeniktorres4320]

I would like an answer to this too from knowledgeable people. Many are just repeating the same thing, but nothing as to the best way to prevent it from people with the knowledge.

[@WhatsOnMyShelf]

@@zeniktorres4320 I've read some comments talking about backing up NAND, but if the console is bricked how can that data be written over corrupt NAND?

[@adriangutierrez7686]

Same here. My WiiU still works, I bought a hard drive for it and bought some games last year before the e shop close. But I want to know about how often I should maintain it.

[@jonathan2950]

Yep some specific details and instructions on how to identify if you have a vulnerable model, and what to do to minimise the risk of this happening, would be extremely helpful. My Wii U seems to be ok, for now. I already dig it out every 6 months to charge up the game pad and keep the battery going as long as possible. I’ll keep doing that, and at the same time I’ll now power up the console. No idea if that will help!

[@zeniktorres4320]

@@jonathan2950 I do that too. I have a few Wii U's, and I went thru them this week, charged up the gamepad, and played a stint on Mario Kart 8, that was the quickest. But I don't know if that prevents the corruption.

[@Gestersmek]

Hm, I should probably plug in my Wii U and make sure it's okay. Edit: It's working fine. I'll probably install homebrew on it now just because.

[@SP-vl1jh]

I've been getting the urge to play some Wind Waker and Mario Galaxy 2. So maybe I should really do it now. lol

[@rijjhb9467]

If you hack it you can dump the nand like I did, so if it gets corrupted you can reflash it.

[@WhatsOnMyShelf]

@@rijjhb9467 Are you sure? If indeed the NAND became corrupt, then how could it have the instructions to boot and reflash from a thumb drive or whatever backup device used? While it's a potential fix, I haven't read anything about using a NAND backup to bring a WU back from death failing NAND. The Wii had NAND you could corrupt and potentially revive using a backup; however, I haven't read anything that doing so for WU is going to work for this problem.

[@RiderWithTheScarf]

Doesn't the Switch hold the save files in the switch's own memory at least compared to having the game cart keep it? At least that way the save data could be potentially safe if stored elsewhere, like Sony did for its handhelds and the PS3 and beyond line of consoles.

[@mixedhairless]

I understand now , straight to the point . Thanks

[@ZeroPointSpirituality]

My WiiU is a launch unit and wasn't used for two years while I were away abroad and still works fine

[@RainbowYawn]

“Really honestly probably” I never heard anyone say that before

[@Luchingador]

Scott the woz in shambles

[@cascadepinball]

Why would be be in Shambles?

[@cireza_]

Great summary. Honestly I have been surprised to see my neogaf topic gaining so much traction. People should definitely make a backup of their NAND if their Wii U is already soft-modded. And hopefully, not too many Wii Us will be affected, but we have no idea on how many have a poor quality NAND to begin with.

[@seraaron]

This makes me glad that I just bought an unpatched Switch and backed up all my game carts.

[@ericblenner-hassett3945]

The other option was PROM and it is getting harder to find them, never mind the 24+ pin packaging and 16K ( and one bit per IC for some of them ) storage limits. There were larger, and the pin count was also larger to the point you might think you are looking at a 6502.

[@yjk_ch]

I would guess that Nintento didn't engineer Wii U's file system with potential corruptions in mind, or didn't implement it very well. PC operating systems usually have the ability to recover from small corruptions(CHKDSK on Windows, fsck on UNIX-like systems).

[@Null_Experis]

It probably can be recovered easily in a service center, they likely have special tools to get the encryption keys and build a fresh flash on the fly.

[@yjk_ch]

@@Null_Experis Wii U does have ability to boot recovery image from SD card instead of NAND flash from what I've heard, so yes, I think service center can repair it.

[@angelozicarelli541]

I just played my Wii u yesterday and it was fine. I guess I'll just keep playing it at least 3 times a week

[@Lxx00Jxx00]

a bit of a tangent on something completely unrelated but 349 "moneys" are what it cost a modern game around here where I am and I just wish I lived in a reality where it is 70 btw great video very direct to the point

[@RenegadePandaZ]

Nice, I never knew the actual difference between flash types. It's odd, because I literally just hooked up my Wii U again after years of having it shoved in a closet, probably about a week ago, and it still works great. Not sure if I'm lucky or just knocking on wood.

[@Imaminimonstertruck]

Because it isn't true. If this was true why is there no videos of owners having these issues on KZbin? They're articles talking about it how funny that they're all recent there's no five or six year old articles talking about it. I feel this is a scare tactic just for clicks. Also wouldn't the original Wii would suffer that fate as well yet no videos about that one same goes with the 3DS..

[@seganutt]

@@Imaminimonstertruck I couldn't agree more my Wii u hasn't been used in years hooked it up yesterday working fine I don't believe it either

[@cellprocessing6832]

@@Imaminimonstertruck Its not wide spread. Only very few people are having issues with it. I just thought It be a good in roads to talking about the different rom types. The the numbers its effecting is very few.

[@graalcloud]

Yeah mine always works great. But I did keep mine plugged in for years before putting it back in the box, so idk.

[@koniginator]

​@@Imaminimonstertruck the Wii u had a tragic install base, and the switch has been out for 6 full years. Exactly how many people do you think are booting up their Wii U right now if it's been sitting in the closet for over half a decade?

[@st.michaelofcigarillo2845]

I clicked on this because I thought he looked like Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

[@Moister356]

Really well explained. I've my Wii, not a Wii U since 2007 and never has stopped working since then, I'm kind afraid now. I've backup my NAND in case of anything.

[@xavito4337]

You gained a subscriber because the game you were holding was Blaster Master Zero :)

[@sboinkthelegday3892]

Vita memory cards are also very problematic, which I always thought is because the NAND tech in them isn't very good, and probably the way Vita accesses the memory is also very particular and prone to misreadings. Almost always bringing Vita out of storage and palying the OG cards, I have to let it sit for a while, make attmepts to read the memory card and get "game couldn't be read", until after a while I guess it somehow pushes the charge BACK onto the degrading memory, so correct ones and zeros are once again read AS ones and zeros.

[@paulettesterling]

Yet Sony still had the nerve to charge a kidney and a wishbone for one.

[@poncho828]

I didn't know vita memory cards were prone to failure. All my memory cards have never had issues.

[@aqua-technic]

64gb vita cards are beyond notorious for their failure rates, 32gb too but to a lesser degree. I'm hearing more and more about the game cards failing too these days, what a shame.

[@InkfinityOkamix3]

I’m a Vita collector. I’m seriously starting to regret it. if all my games end up losing charge (even if they’ve never been played), I won’t be able to sell them and make my money I’ve spent back. Theres no way I’ll be able to play over 100 Vita games within the next 10-20 years. I have spent thousands on a glorified paperweight. It’s so obvious that Sony intended for the Vita to have a short lifespan, along with Nintendo and the WiiU. Shame on them, they don’t care about consumers. Also, shame on collectors. YOU ARE WASTING YOUR MONEY COLLECTING FOR MODERN CONSOLES. It’s only sustainable to collect for retro consoles at this point.

[@paulettesterling]

@@aqua-technic That truly sucks. Imagine PSP UMDs outliving the Vita cards. When the Vita came out, I just...never got one. I couldn't put my finger on it. I bought the 3DS the year prior and certainly got the PSP shortly after release. Looking back, Sony actually killed it with the PSP. It had a web browser, visualised MP3 player, photo viewer, internet radio, MP4/UMD movies, and so many different games ranging from full blown console-like experiences to the smallest mini indie games, and I had a BLAST with it. Bewilders me to this day how the Vita was treated like it was...

[@ExtremeWreck]

MASKED CARTRIDGES WORKING OVER NIGHT FIGHTING DUST, FIGHTING DUST

[@SianaGearz]

Samsung Galaxy S3 is known to contain faulty flash as well, the problem there is that the eMMC chip (similar to sd-card, but for embedding, faster), it's got a processor which does the interface and wear levelling, and it's got a bug that eats data. Some guy hacked the phone to fix the bug in the firmware and held a seminar at defcon or chaos computer conference, I forget, fascinating one. The bug affects a lot more devices of the era which use Samsung eMMC as well.

[@anandchundi6805]

also if you leave them plugged in it can brick them, there's a filter chip going from the dvd drive to the cpu and if the console is plugged in its constantly receiving power. Eventually it fails and the console refuses to turn on.

[@MarcoFD]

so how does one prevent their games from becoming corrupt? would booting the games up every now and then for x amount of minutes re energize these memory cells? or is it a matter of time. as nothing last forever of course in the end.

[@DragonProtector]

That is what i want to know

[@cattysplat]

This reminds me of my big collection of Amiga floppy disks that started to die in the mid 2000s. Nothing lasts forever especially cheap storage medias.

[@emmanuellgarcia2555]

Very informative my friend. Good job.

[@cascadepinball]

Thanks 👍

[@patrickmurphy9470]

Maybe this is why most of the Wii U library was ported to the Switch. It’s almost like Nintendo knew this was gonna happen.

[@RCL89]

So, to be on the safe side: start backing up your physical Switch collection now, before it becomes a problem.