Narrated D&D Story: How The DM Tried To Make My Paladin A Serial Killer

[@reapergrimm8]

Hi, everybody. I'm the OP for this little story. I can tell just from the current comments that this will be a divisive issue. As it generally is when it comes to Paladins and what constitutes a Falls from Grace. But given that it wound up being so memorable for me, I felt it was necessary to share. EDIT: I have also learned a LOT about playing a Paladin since I left this group. I was rookie player when this happened, and I was still learning how to roleplay effectively. I am also the first to recognize I made some poor choices despite my intention to not be "Lawful Stupid". But everything is a learning experience once you reflect on it.

[@unmog4223]

The main problem is gms not explaining house rules and keeping things a secret that could effect someones character without any kind of warning. Most gms will at least give out a little "are you SUUUUURE you want to do that? Really sure?" :p

[@BaoHadir]

I honestly believe your paladin did nothing wrong. Decap an enemy that had been put to sleep during combat? It's fine. They were trying to kill you first. Smack a kid for stealing something important? Shaky, but there are plenty of Lawful Good characters in fiction who would murder the child for stealing such a thing, because getting an answer from the surviving children is for the greater good. Taking out the Magus to stop two good people from mindlessly murdering each other? Totally understandable. Would have been funnier if you sundered the dragon's black blade. Going by the description, it sounded like the dragon had a black blade but not class levels as a Magus. Without at least 3 levels of Magus, the blade wouldn't have the Unbreakable quality. It would have screwed up the Magus's Highlander quest, but that's kinda what happens when people don't share information.

[@Kyledengaming]

Honestly mate, good on you to taking the high road. Its always a shocker when you get asked to leave even more so when you have stuff going on outside of game but you took it like a champ and took the time to learn more about how you perferr to play and over all thats a plus for any future games you join. IMO the Dm should of talked to you after the first said "strike" to work out the keens of this new system. Either way mate proud of ya.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

My only gripe is... really, Iomedae! Such a newbie mistake indeed.... /s

[@edgyhamster749]

Hey... look on the bright side! At least the story was pretty interesting! Aside from the meany DM and group of course. But I hope you are doing well and continue to make awsome legendary heroes and stories! :)

[@PizzaMineKing]

Not warning from such house rules is the worst thing a DM can do - at my tables, usually everyone has to agree to house rules, including homebrew.

[@craigtucker1290]

Agree. Every DM should always let their players know their house rules are and what deviations they have made from the way the game is supposed to work so as not to surprise the players later.

[@basbarbeque6718]

I have a google doc with all my houserules, changes, removals, and additions and all my players can view this document.

[@Scrydragon]

This story is making me so angry that I'm having a hard time finishing it. It's like the DM was deliberately setting up the player to fail. At the very least, the DM should have talked with the player on what being a paladin in their campaign would entail.

[@LordSatan20]

Same with my group! Everyone has a say, the DM is like “if everyone else is cool with it, then I don’t see a problem with it.”

[@dmdc5719]

I like to send out what I call a campaign pack. It will usually include things like some details of the world, and specifically things about the area the game will primarily take place in. I also include house rules. I am of the mind that as far as house rules, if a player doesn't like them they don't have to play. But I do believe it's important for players to know what they will be before they begin their character creation. Having said that, I feel this game had some neat moments from the story, but that whole fall from grace definitely seemed unwarranted. Nothing your paladin did seemed bad enough or even bad for that matter, to warrant a "fall". On the contrary I think you played one of the best examples of a "well done" paladin I've heard of in quite some time. I've had players play lawful good, each with their own little quirks. And they usually do well even if they aren't paladins. But I've never had one play the whole lawful stupid thing. but we have explored things like those who show no honor, deserve no honor. So the cuup de grace on the kobolds at least as I would see it was warranted. I personally liked the anger thing, and as a DM I would have viewed that as a roleplay opportunity. As a half orc, I'd think that would be a part of you that would serve as your flaw. Quelling the beast so to speak. Would be cool to explore further. I would love having such a paladin in a game I ran.

[@rodjacksonx]

So, the other players KNEW the DM would send a horde of street urchins after you, but instead of saying anything, or helping, they run off to protect themselves and lock you out?!! Yeah, the OP was playing with three a-holes, not just one. Pretty much saw the end of the story coming. Sheesh.

[@Tarantio1983]

On top of which, abandoning OP like that to a horde of urchins is totally not in keeping with the group's "bros before foes" ideology... thus the group are toxic egotistical aholes!

[@RogaineForEwoks]

Yeah, the urchins thing sounds like the DM talked to his friends or he has a weird thing about urchins. They can pick pocket a longsword? At that point they should be called the piranhas and just wait at the gate to steal everything from everyone who enters. I would lean very hard on the fact that the DM wanted the Marbles to get stolen and setup the paladin to take the blame.

[@foxxielane2196]

@@Tarantio1983 Nah, they are all bro not including the OP, thus they uphold the "bros before foes". Really a bunch of shitty older dudes bullying a younger new kid at their table.

[@IsilmeTuruphant]

@@Tarantio1983 Where was 'Bros before foes' when they were fighting the Kobolds?

[@IsilmeTuruphant]

@@RogaineForEwoks Hey now, an underfed 8 year old could TOTALLY pull three feet of steel out of its scabbard before a trained fighter attached to the thing could stop him /s Were there even any contested rolls for that? They went for a belt and sword and a bag of marbles, none of which they had any way of knowing were magical, rather than easier and surer prizes like his money, potions, or holy symbol?

[@ryzukumagawa7143]

I'm all for a three strike system but you got to tell and inform your players

[@simonkennedy6116]

Pretty sure the player wouldn't have made the same choices knowing about the consequences

[@thomascantrell3254]

I think if you have a 3 strikes rule you have to tell a person when they're about to get a strike.

[@bartofii]

and make sure the "strikes" make sense. The DM in that story might have had Anakin fall to the darkside and turn into Vader LONG before the end of the clone wars.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Against myself, it is a broken oath to a god level event, but I can see why it would be useful against some types of players. Lots of communication as to what that Oath means and when it is being broken is required, of course.

[@craigtucker1290]

It is actually just one strike that causes a paladin to fall in those systems, the DM was being generous. But falling as a paladin us not that big of a deal as many make it out to be as a paladin can regain status as long as the paladin did not knowingly commit an evil act. The DM should have provided the paladin's code of behavior to the player though and the last "strike" was a stupid house rule of that groups to boot.

[@guamae]

The thing that shocked me, and I actually had to rewind and make sure I heard it right, was when two party members locked the Paladin outside just before they were overrun by thieving children... I mean, most of the random complications of the story would have been remedied were it not for that bizarre act....

[@Pointlesschan]

I’m thinking the “bro’s” was the dm and his two long time players and they were in cahoots to railroad the paladin and campaign

[@VirtuesOfSin]

"Pause the game and tell them that this action will cause them to fall" - This SEEMS meta, but this feels more like the Paladins deity whispering to them rather than a meta choice. Tbh, I prefer this over secret falling.

[@NoahofWill]

That gives me a good idea for how to handle if any of my players decide they want to play a paladin in our Curse of Strahd game (provided we actually get to play it anytime soon XD)

[@VirtuesOfSin]

@@NoahofWill I wish I could play a game, but it feels like my group basically shoved me out. I was always relegated to heal support bot anyway. Wish I could play one or two games where I wasn't the "I heal your boo-boos" character...

[@silentmeklar1783]

@@VirtuesOfSin parties don’t need a healer. Potions are a thing. Or DMPC. Always play a class that YOU want to play. There’s 2 wizards and 1 fighter? Oh well.

[@VirtuesOfSin]

​@@silentmeklar1783 Ya know... people say that, until they realize that they have less healing potions and rodes of healings than the enemy caster has fireballs, and need (a little) healing to keep them from dying to 2 or 3 super long range fireballs in order to get close enough. Granted, healing isn't the ONLY thing I do (i.e. My Bardical was a support healer, my Oradin was an HP Battery that redirected damage to himself [that fireball death was glorious], and the one I used for emerald spire was a Druric [later retrained Oraric] was an epic debuffer that had a monster of a pet [Yogi II - first one died because of bad saves hence the retrain from Druid to Oracle].). Still... beyond that it'ed be nice to play the main striker on the team for a change, instead of the support buffer and/or healer... As much as I like Alexander (Paladin/Cavalier/Herald), he basically is just a "Walking +5 Hit/+5 Damage to allies within 30 ft. of me!".

[@silentmeklar1783]

@@VirtuesOfSin m8 if someone doesn’t want to play a healer/support they shouldn’t have to. End of story. I personally don’t mind playing the fill roll for whatever the party needs. That’s just me. But I would never try to force someone else to be a support. Dps. Or tank.

[@WhiteWolfieX5]

As a DM I think it is dishonest to have hidden rules.. But listening to this it also inspires me to ask my clerics and paladins to make me a code of honor based on their god. This way we got a set of rules on how they could fall if they wanted to or not... Thank you Orc paladin! I hope your games going forwarded are blessed with good fortune!

[@anonymousanonymous9587]

Only some hidden rules are ok, in my opinion. *If they involve the player character majorly it is not ok, aka hidden 3 strike rules*

[@nephicus339]

It also sounds like the DM was letting their personal views dictate a lot of it. I can't imagine a dark paladin following an evil god giving money to children would suddenly result in lost powers, for instance. Alignment is such a bullshit mechanic. It should only be a guide of how a character normally behaves; not a single person in real life is of a strict, singular alignment, so why should our game characters?

[@xephthetamagochi4046]

the fact the DM did not make the system clear is a MASSIVE failure on his end.

[@jakevex4198]

I think that DM was just a Dick

[@ZttackFrmBhind]

This DM really should have done something like what Matt Mercer did in Critical Role with Pike Trickfoot. She was a Cleric of Sarenrae (Redemption) and slit the throat of a dissabled enemy with a mace... Super bloody and messy and a little outside of the realm of her god. The next time that Pike looked at her holy symbol she noticed a small crack marring the usually perfect gold finish of her amulet. He didn't need to tell her how many strikes she had left, but he did tell her that she had acted out of line, so that she knew that she had to do something to right her standing with her deity. Because I don't believe that the DM and the Player have to agree on what is acceptable for the Paladin/Cleric's actions, it's where those interesting side missions come from, where the character gets to search for redemption and then has the internal struggle of rectifying their own beliefs with that of their god. But that can't happen if the Paladin doesn't know that there is a problem. It would be like going to work one day and being told to go home because you were fired, and after asking why you were fired, you were told that it was because you had a bottle of water at your desk every day for the last week and that's against company policy. You need to be told that there is a problem so you can choose to reform or not.

[@sebastiansilverfox6912]

I think this is a good idea in general, but for this particular story, I think another layer is needed. Matt knows Ashley well and she knows his standards. There was no need for an explanation of why actions were taken. (Plus, Pike did something glaringly evil). In the case of the story on the video, some discussion should have taken place. Good gimmicks are great but good communication cannot be substituted.

[@austinmiller2170]

That was exactly my first thought. She knew right away what she had done wrong.

[@impishrebel5969]

Uh... I'm not sure that warranted a strike for Pike. The thing about Sarenrae is that if her followers believe the subject is beyond redemption, then "freeing" them of their earthly bonds is considered a valid option, aka killing the unredeemable to redeem them. I haven't seen Critical Role and don't know the full context but I don't get Pike's DM's logic here or if he knows very much on Sarenrae. Sarenrae's followers causing wars is a thing, and killing unredeemable became a huge plot point in Pathfinder: Kingmaker...

[@austinmiller2170]

@@impishrebel5969 Here's the context: she slit the throat of someone who was already unconscious. It was less about her killing someone and more to do with her killing someone who wasn't an immediate threat.

[@supercharliegalaxy]

When my cleric of Sarenrae killed a defenseless wizard by accident, (Bob was trying to teach the Wizard a lesson on what happens if you betray him XD) my DM started to drop some hints like the sunlight wasn't as warm or how his magic felt cold. When I did a religion check my character learned he fell out of favor with The Everlight. So the next few sessions I would atone through prayer and doing good deeds genuinely. Right now The Everlight is kinda neutral on him. XD

[@renejaensch8723]

GM: "Aww sry, secret house rules" Player: "Aww sry, you can't use the NPC from my backstory in that way, had some secret stories"

[@BrianKorot]

What's sad is that every time he "Violated" his Paladinship, I see validation

[@reapergrimm8]

That is the general response I get when I tell people this story.

[@BrianKorot]

@@reapergrimm8 People forget that Lawful Good isn't always Lawful Nice, and that House Rules should ALWAYS be explained. As a DM of almost 30 years, I would never have done what was done in that story. I even had a guy playing a Paladin/Duskblade (3.5, Gestalt Paladin-Duskblade/Cleric) Who I had to have a sit down with because of a "Special Move" he envisioned using Harm and the Duskblade's ability to channel spells through their sword... He made his case, I made mine, in the end, he got the ability to use that and "Heal Sword" lol, but it bit him in the butt when an evil version of him was created with equal abilities...

[@SilverMichi]

agreed. everything he did that was "wrong" according to the DM seemed accurate to me... I've dealt with a similar DM like this... and put up with the behavior for a long time... after I got railroaded to my characters death I walked away. the whole group was toxic.

[@heartless0n3]

Ehhhh you guys think killing an urchin with your bare hands is lawful good you got alot to learn but otherwise i agree

[@SilverMichi]

@@heartless0n3 don't remember hearing him killing an "urchin" but they were dealing with thieves and cut throats... you can call them "urchins" but that's what they were.

[@caiusdrakegaming8087]

I don't see OP being in the wrong for their actions. Coup de grace'ing a bunch of sleeping kobolds is not against Iomedae's tenets, if anything it actually falls under a tenet. 'I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest.' That means, since kobolds tend to be tricksters, they wouldn't technically be 'worthy opponents' by definition of the tenet. So the first strike wouldn't really be counted as a strike with Iomedae. Him striking the one urchin, while yes a bit mean, was not uncalled for. The urchin was not telling him where the memories were taken. None of the urchins were telling. That fell on the DM, who had these urchins behave rudely to a paladin that had only need nice to them before. Him striking the one urchin as punishment for them not wanting to say where they took the memories, as OP said, was a light one given what had happened. His anger may not have been moderate, but his action was certainly a tempered one. Another tenet of Iomedae OP followed, 'I will be temperate with my actions, and moderate in my behavior'. That makes the second strike not a fair one either. The third strike was OP trying to stop two characters from fighting each other while those two were mind-controlled. A good action, no matter how you look at it. Iomedae has no tenet for it, but I think in general she would hope her followers would be like this. Third strike, third debunking. To me, it seemed like the DM both had no idea what a Lawful Stupid paladin(or as I like to call them, the Zealots) really was and didn't seem to want to tell OP about the strike system. Both were not problems OP could have done anything about short of leaving that group.

[@Heimdal001]

The whole urchin thing was weird. Like, is the setting medieval fantasy, or modern day? Modern day: Yeah, that's assault and bad. Medieval-ish: Punishments for theft could range from fines to flogging, putting in stocks, limb mutilation, etc. You punch an urchin with a gauntlet, for working with thieves, and I'd sooner imagine the criticisms would be more akin to the damage not being lasting enough for the kid to learn from - based on setting assumption! The DM seemed to be looking at the situation from his own modern perspective, rather than a setting one; local theft-related punishments would rather likely be worse even at their lightest, and often carried out by the one who was slighted (or the community).

[@Nathan-qp9uv]

I agree on the first and last. if i'm understanding right the first strike they were still in combat with the kobolds overall at that point and its not like the sleep spell is all that great at keeping threats down long term so ya i don't see that as an issue in any case. The 3rd strike yaaaa no way that should be a problem thats how any good character should act in the case of obvious mind control forcing two creatures to, as far as the character can tell, fight against their will. well when a good option to snap them out of it isn't handy anywise. But the 2nd case ehhh while as a punishment it might not of been overboard all things considered (lawful), reducing someones HP to zero in D&D with lethal damage represents inflicting life threatening or even crippling injury. considering what the OP described it sounded like he depicted his paladin losing control of himself and inflicting near lethal damage when a nonlethal attack would accomplish the same thing which certainly isn't good. if I was at that table with a paladin thats supposed to be prioritizing good over law I would probably let that strike stand.

[@caiusdrakegaming8087]

@@Heimdal001 The setting's definitely medieval fantasy, gods and magic are a big thing from what I saw. So yeah, DM was just being a bit dumb and putting modern day reasoning to a scene in a fantasy setting.

[@caiusdrakegaming8087]

@@Nathan-qp9uv Given OP said the urchin was getting a lighter punishment then what would be normal for stealing such an important item from a paladin, I think it was implied he did non-lethal. Especially since, he never stated the urchin died. NPCs don't get death saving, they drop to zero HP, they dead. Pretty sure even Pathfinder does that, so if the DM didn't declare the urchin died then urchin was just unconscious. I doubt the urchin was an important NPC either, so just further points to OP did non-lethal without saying so in the story. Plus, if that urchin got caught by a guard they'd have gotten a much worse punishment than just getting knocked out if you go by how a guard in a fantasy setting would really act. Losing a hand or something similar would be a harsh punishment, but probably common one. So yeah, that's why I wouldn't count the second strike, by fantasy standards the urchin got off really easy. Especially given OP's orc was angry. Even an adult would be careful around an angry orc, let alone a kid who's being rude and not cooperating with a paladin.

[@mitchellbonds766]

I think they're confusing Paladins with Knights. Knights have chivalric vows that prevent them from using tactics like coup de grace or flanking. Fighting honorably. Paladins are supposed to slay evil, not play nice.

[@danielhounshell2526]

It's so stupid that people expect paladins to just completely ignore sound strategy. They're warriors, champions of a god. It's like people are trying to base paladin off of "the honorable knight" archetype while fundamentally misunderstanding what that means from a historical perspective. Knights took part in ambushes, knights performed flanking maneuvers, knights attacked enemy camps under the cover of night. Using strategy is not evil, it is not unlawful, it is simply having a brain and using it, turning a situation to your advantage to ensure the least casualties as is possible. Not even mentioning that it's far kinder to have someone die while sleeping than it is to kill them while they're fully conscious. Actions aren't really what should be considered here unless they're particularly heinous, it's the motives and ideas of the character. If some evil mage was paralyzed or put to sleep by a spell, and would likely cause significant harm upon awakening, it's pretty much your job as a paladin to make sure he doesn't get the chance to do that. Also in pathfinder, falling occurs when you commit a willfully evil act, not when you violate a code of conduct.

[@jamesrichards2720]

exactly.

[@obliviousfafnir01]

I agree that the part about killing a foe in his sleep is perfectly acceptable. Many creatures in Pathfinder/D&D are evil by nature, Kobolds included. It's perfectly acceptable for a lawful good paladin to play the role of executioner to an evil creature or even to a non-typical evil being who has committed a particularly heinous crime. However, the bit about punching a kid, that can easily be argued as not very good. I don't know about it causing them to fall, though. Good characters have flaws, and that includes paladins. A short temper and a violent outburst shouldn't be enough to do that, especially if he feels bad a bout it afterwards. My biggest issue in this story (or at least the one thing that the player DEFINITELY did wrong) is when the paladin attacked his own party member. The issue here isn't attacking an ally, but rather meta-gaming to use non-lethal and then lethal damage. That's really bending the rules, IMO, and that should have been called out by the GM. In the end, though, all of this could have been avoided if the GM hadn't played secret rules, and made his intentions clear to the player.

[@MrSilvUr]

Killing someone in their sleep isn't honorable. There's some grey area when it comes to sleep spells and the heat of combat, but, buy-in-large, killing someone in their sleep isn't a coup-de-grace; it's murder. The entire point of a paladin is that they hold themselves to a higher standard. If you remove that standard because it's strategically inconvenient, or weasel out of it by appealing to something as vague and lacking nuance as historical precedent, then you only undermine the point of the class. The ideal play experience of a paladin is to restrict yourself to honorable conduct and test your faith that you will make it through to the end despite that - and for the other players to look at your character and say, "The restrictions this guy placed on himself can be frustrating, but damn if I don't respect him." Saying that you should be able to do things that we all see as dishonorable because you're playing a character who's archetyped after a position that was held to a different standard of honor in its historical context is just a copout. This is *our* game. *We* should see you as honorable. And I bet none of those historical knights got Detect Evil and Divine Smite.

[@obliviousfafnir01]

@@MrSilvUr Yeah, but they were Kobolds. Even most paladins are going to see them as little more than scaly rats. Nobody is going to cry over a dead Kobold, and that includes most good aligned dieties.

[@MrSilvUr]

@@obliviousfafnir01 That's probably true. Ultimately, I think that's a setting question: "Are kobolds basically vermin in this setting? Or is this the kind of setting where Kobold is a viable player race?" Those aren't mutually exclusive. Some of it is down to character knowledge, too. There was a time when people of certain ethnicities were seen as little more than animals. Ideally a Paladin errs on the side of righteousness. Though, given this particular situation, that's kind of irrelevant. There's some legitimate concern about the Kobolds waking up and threatening your allies. Hence my comment about grey areas.

[@asbestosfish_]

I was about to elaborate about that time our DM turned us into Cultists, but that opening hit me hard. I’ll get back to you all on that.

[@tatersalad76]

Ya see, this is why I like oath of conquest: "You murdered a dozen pirates in their sleep!" "Yeah, well if they weren't such pansies they wouldn't have died in one crit smite. And I gotta rule with an iron fist."

[@KuariThunderclaw]

This kind of thing is why I LOVE 5e's oath system... it doesn't try to bind ALL Paladins under one code. It provides an opportunity to establish the specific tenets of the code they follow which can be in fact followed in MANY different ways. Oath of Conquest for example... you can be a tyrannical warlord, a hero to one's people and villain to all who would harm them ala Vlad the Impaler, or you can simply be an unforgiving avenger. And so much in between. Anyone telling you that "this action will cause you to fall" when it has nothing to do with your oath would just be objectively wrong. Hell, Conquest even calls out specifically being a sort of Hell Knight... which brings up an interesting question though in regards to Oathbreaker if they break their oath not for personal gain but to seek redemption if they've felt they've gone too far.

[@cormacbyrne2210]

Let me remind everyone of rule 1 of DnD, as it seems very relevant to this tale: No DnD is better than bad DnD.

[@Isheian]

I’d argue that, if it’s causing more harm to be playing than to not then quit for a while. Playing with a bad group leads to all kinds of unneeded stress and emotional drama that can bleed into the rest of your life, much better to drop out than continue just to play.

[@reapergrimm8]

I had to learn that the hard way

[@thebrokenhandle7691]

Isheian I mean, that sentence means two VERY different things based on where the emphasis is. I think they meant that it’s better to go without the game for a while than subject yourself to torture.

[@Isheian]

TheBrokenhandle That’s what I meant while I took the OPs to mean it’s better to play bad dnd than not play dnd at all

[@thebrokenhandle7691]

Isheian yeah, while I love to use those dual meaning statements as a GM, using them in a coment section(even in a good community) can lead to a lot of unfortunate situations. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good statement from cormac, just could’ve used a bit of clarification.

[@UnstoppableFloridaMan]

I don’t know what it is about college and local games that just end in disaster. Like, all most every horror story I see is either in a shop or university. Of course online can be a nightmare too, but I guess strangers just make things awkward and can lead to a lot of unseen drama that is not so easily seen at first glance.

[@ssfbob456]

I think with the college games everyone at the table is probably a little immature and it just leads to chaos

[@andrewt3045]

I feel like the biggest disaster in online games is "These people were douchebags so i left the discord server and stopped going" as apposed to someone who knows you face to face

[@ssfbob456]

@@andrewt3045 I've been playing online for a couple years on the same server and we've cycled through a few players, in fact just me, the DM and one other of our five players make up what's left of the original group. Some of them were exactly like that and only lasted a session, but for the most part it's been okay

[@Deathro97]

I've noticed the same, so I try to be a respectful as possible to my players. I have introduced a many a nerd to DnD over the years. They've all left happy and satisfied. I've even played in some their own games. I've found communication is Key to a good campaign.

[@notchomomma239]

As a paladin, be clear about they "why" you're doing something that may seem a little out of place to keep from falling. If the DM doesn't understand why until after they thought it out and made their final call, your arguments could go unheard.

[@VirtuesOfSin]

If the DM actually discusses with the Players - which this one didn't.

[@notchomomma239]

@@VirtuesOfSin by that time, it's already too late. Be proactive while taking the action and mention the why right then.

[@Warcrafter4]

@@notchomomma239 The DM also counted a paladin losing his temper over a world ending theft as a count against the paladin when they were purposely using non lethal attacks against the apocalyptic theives... This DM clearly never played with paladins before as most paladins would have more or less gotten their guilds to burn down the town to try to save the world. Good =/= to nice which the DM doesn't seem to understand.

[@SirStanleytheStumbler]

@@notchomomma239 If it's really such an issue then the DM should bring it up right away rather then secretly punish the player over it.

[@MissXaverie]

As a DM, I never ever punish my players for kindness. Giving money to homeless children is a good, kind thing to do and to be punished for it by having all of your key plot items stolen is not how you inspire players to take heroic actions. It only lends to hesitation, distrust and selfishness.

[@FynnR2D2EVOLVED]

"I give some gold coins to some urchins" "You have doomed Half-town." Mmkay.

[@allthingsdnd]

Red flags everywhere. Just find right players to play dnd with and you'll have fun otherwise this is how it goes 😶

[@johnnysizemore5797]

Well, what do you expect with all those "fouls" out there? Suprised nobody got ejected, you want the truth...

[@EtnaBoy666]

Yeah, it seems your stories these days are all about "101: How NOT to be a GM." XD Yet another idiot. I'm not saying that you should play a P&P pure, but house rules should ALWAYS be explained to a new player. This GM sinned by not telling our newbie the rule about paladins and decided to screw him over. Rule #101: ALWAYS EXPLAIN YOUR HOUSE RULES IF THEY PERTAIN TO THE PLAYER. This guy said "I am playing a paladin." You need to explain: "Okay, then you need to be VERY virtuous and not hurt kids or decapitate kobolds, three strikes, you're out." They may not like you afterwards, but at least you're HONEST with them. This GM was dishonest by holding away info and then springing the surprise on him when it was too late. And the player shouldn't have asked for an NPC girlfriend, because NPCs are GM property and therefore this asshole GM was going to screw him over in romance as well because that 'girlfriend' was another NPC he could use as a pawn. Thanks to the GM, the players had a horrible time leading to the destruction of an innocent town by hellspawn. :( As I have said before, Gamemasters are not STORYmasters, they are giving a group of people an INTERACTIVE experience. If I wanted to get my pooch screwed, I would go play Fortnite and let other players frag me, not waste my time getting my character turned evil by manipulating storymasters. You GMs are responsible for laying the rules to the new players, and if you hold info from them, you are hurting the entire game. Obviously this group didn't like the newbie. X( Sorry, I just HATE having to hear this sob stories of evil GMs screwing the pooch over on newbies and people having to leave groups because of it. I am glad the narrator is now a GM himself and from the sound of it, he's a good GM. Good on him.

[@allthingsdnd]

Christian Groff This was our first dnd horror story in quite some time. We actually do these so players can get what they should and should not do. Its not to make you hate anything. Its to make you aware of how you should not do something and if you are, why you should stop.

[@EtnaBoy666]

@@allthingsdnd No, I am not hating people just for the sake of it, I appreciate these stories. To be honest, I like the stories but they do not apply to me as I have never been in a campaign. I have played D&D a few times but they were only one-shot adventures and I nevre had bad experiences with them for the most part. I appreciate you putting up these stories for people in the genre to learn from. ;) EDIT: Also, whoever came up with "bros before foes" needs to be dragged out into the street and murdered while the murderer says that adage. It is clearly a phrase used by jerkwads who just want to sow chaos and are anti-social jackweeds. Such people shouldn't be playing group games, they should be mowing down other players in battle royale. X(

[@allthingsdnd]

Christian Groff We have some really amazing ones lined up next, you’ll definitely enjoy them more 🙃

[@zekdev]

"But, I continued, because I want to play" is a recurring theme in many DND horror stories .... If you have a choice, don't.

[@sarahreynolds1958]

When it comes to Pathfinder and 3.5e paladins, I've seen two primary types. Law over Good, and Good over Law. I personally believe that neither is inherently correct, or wrong. Though I think that the way a lot of people do it... IE: ignoring one side or the other, is absolutely wrong. A paladin should not be either LAW or GOOD. They are Lawful AND good. Punching a child who stole a magic artifact from you, even if it isn't the key to opening a portal to hell, is absolutely justified on either alignment spectrum, and would be allowed by both. Stopping a friend who is under the influence of mind control from harming something that should be a powerful force for good in the world is absolutely a good act. Though honestly, with that one, the blades should have showed up as evil. Even if their power can be used for good, destroying all other blades in existence just to power up your own is selfish, and thus evil. Ultimately, alignment is more about justification than action. Why you did something should always be more important than what you did.

[@markuhler2664]

Good points all

[@hole-sawbear1500]

I agree with all but the end. Actions and intentions have the same level of importance. Action without the corresponding intention is falsehood, and intention without action is cowardice, or possibly just a lack of discipline.

[@Nintenja889]

Here’s the thing: I can see both sides having issues, but the DM seemed to be the majority of them. That, and the party, which backed him up. The strikes system should have been known, warnings should have been given, and “bros before foes” is stupid. Also, those kids, while children, clearly fell somewhere close to the evil category. So I don’t think that’s a hit against the paladin.

[@DragonGunzDorian]

Not only stupid, bros before foes is hypocritical. They literally left him outside to get robbed and later on took the moral highground when he tried to stop his mind controlled ally from murdering what was supposed to be a good creature.

[@danielbernhardt1327]

Especially considering the kids stole something with the potential to unleash hell on earth and kill everyone.

[@Nintenja889]

DORIAN Robinette exactly.

[@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773]

It is stupid, you can tell flat out that there was an 'in crowd' just from that line. However the people saying it's mysongistic is also dumb since it can be looked at as "party above all" since. I've been in groups that have had the "bros before foes" ideology, (female gm, her bf and two other friends). When I found out my char was getting shifted on for loot and xp...as well having my dinner being eaten. Yea three sessions and I left.

[@Nintenja889]

quick strike wow. That hardcore sucks. Sounds like the “bros before foes” code is really just a way for the ‘group’ to keep an outsider in check.

[@timwoods2852]

It's one thing to have a secret for your player(s) to eventually confront. It's another to determine for them permanent developments.

[@XX-sp3tt]

12:59 Now that's the DM just being a sadistic jerk.

[@Rixizu]

Something similar to this happened to me. I was playing a Star Wars game as a spy, and I got kicked out because I wasn't playing my spy well enough. I'll admit, I might have been a bit impatient and reckless sometimes, but I don't think I played my character egregious bad. Instead of telling me what I was doing wrong so I could improve, the DM kicked me out of the game. He told me that my playing style wasn't working with the team, but gave me no other explanation. I PMed the DM back asking what I did wrong and how I might improve, but he never replied. I think he blocked me on Discord. If there was a problem, why didn't the DM talk to me and explain what the issue was? Why I am the last one to learn there was a problem? Frustrating. DM's if you have an issue with your player, talk to them first before doing anything. They can't divine there's a problem unless you tell them. People aren't mind readers. Also, the strangest part of this story was that the DM wanted me to learn how to be a better spy from a show called Burn Notice. He gave it to me as homework but never stressed how important it was for me to become a better spy. I got halfway through the pilot before deciding it wasn't for me. I kinda figured I'd figure out how to become a better spy on my own. I told the DM I didn't really like the show and found myself kicked from the game a few sessions later. I'm guessing the DM thought I wasn't taking his suggestion seriously enough.

[@DragonGunzDorian]

That dm is a douche. I'd argue thats taking player agency away at least a bit by trying to force you to play your character the dm's way.

[@jamesrichards2720]

That's a perfect example of how not to resolve a conflict. Often to really get things resolved the person bothered needs to say what they want and what specifically is bothering them. We just can't expect others to know what we are thinking with saying it. another thing to keep in mind is being self conscious of personal mistakes and whether what is bothering about others is really such a problem or is it their own harsh judgment that is making things worse.

[@grave2501]

Classes are just skillsets, it is up to the player how these skills are utilised. That said a spy by definition would be a person of high skill, using tactics, infiltration and psychological and asymetric warfare and has more in common with a conman than a fighter. burn notice shows a lot of these qualyties, and gives inspiration for a lot of strategies and tactics one could apply to his roleplay. that said, the DM was a bunghole stereotyping a PC by class and punished the player for not fitting in the stereotype. as a DM i´ve learned never to expect the players to act like their class would be expected to, they come up with things outside the box i could never think of, and when i tried i did 99% more prepwork than needed. i just come up with a scenario and watch how things develop with the players actions, i don´t care if they use their shenanigans to their full potential or not, if the players use their skillset smart it just becomes easier for them, if not, it´s not my fault.

[@XX-sp3tt]

5:33 THAT'S LIKE BEING FALLEN FOR PUSHING CHILDREN ASIDE TO GET A SACK OF HAND GRENADES OUT OF THEIR HANDS!

[@kaptnawesome]

To be fair he did more than push them he punched a child in the face with a metal gauntlet and brought them to 0

[@thebrokenhandle7691]

crzyyak to be counter fair, a punch is better than having a hand grenade go off in their face

[@kaptnawesome]

@@thebrokenhandle7691 true but the kid he punched didnt have it and I dont see how knocking him out is going to help things

[@thebrokenhandle7691]

crzyyak and that’s a fair interpretation, I’d say it’s a questionable decision, but still technically in character because even if the kids didn’t have the “keys to hell” on them, they knew where they went and were refusing to tell. Lawful good is not always lawful nice, and that kid just learned that lesson.

[@emberfist8347]

@@kaptnawesome I would argue that the kids probably were of the neutral evil alignment at best.

[@thekenyonsquad5672]

14:10 "I thought these people were my friends" D&D has an odd way of drawing out the worst in people. I've read a lot of stories where that phrase is way too applicable.

[@johnnysizemore5797]

Notes from a NG human Idiot; Greetings from lovely Restenford(some drizzling rain here, but otherwise we're alright considering....)! One of my tutors when i was growing up (an elderly Half-elf by the name of Professor Thomas)once said to me; "The mind once enlightened cannot again become dark." our Paladin friend made honest mistakes but, unlike the DM who never told our friend anything, he learned from them and is now a better player. I wish him well in his "Upper Nobility" test... May your pantheon Ever favor you(especially in these trying times), Baron Trevelyan of Restenford

[@StormTronEladrin]

Open play a paladin for a couple of months now. It's hard to follow the guidelines thy oath because the character has to truly believe in them because that's the source of the power. But they're also very fun because they're powerful but also fun to role play as. I converse stand why he got a red flagged and broke his oath. But if the DM did not tell him then it's the job of the DM to tell him in advance of the rules.

[@magenstaffarts]

It's funny, Bros Before Foes counted when the Paladin was going to fall. But it didn't count in the Urchin situation? Yeah, the DM and the rest of the party ALL did that dude dirty.

[@lacewinglml]

I remember a pathfinder game, wherr my fiancee decided to play a paladin. She was so tired of the usual ones we got and decided to do her own take. She did her research and created her character, who would be a follower of Shelyn, goddess of beauty, love, art and music. A paladin who also faught for the beauty within. We ended up with this awesome game, and one where my fiancee ended up our "face" and leader of the group. Because of her kindess and gentle nature, even as she will smite yo ass. We had another guy in the group who was playing a lawful evil character, but because of her by the end of the campaign she had completely altered his alignment making him a better person. We actually ended with a wedding where she told hom "You are the most beautiful thing I have ever witnessed" seriously, we did not have a single dry eye.

[@lordhawkeye]

So I had a moment in my last session where the cleric of the party I DM for was about to make a serious mistake, one that would give his god pause. He had some bad rolls and laughter thus far for all as three gaurds have him held and are taking him to jail. He wanted to use his new spell thunderstep to get away, which I was on board with, and he rolled the damage while he was debating where to teleport to. I pause the game for a second to let him know that his cleric knows without a doubt these are simple town gaurds only doing thier job. I'm not taking your agency away from you, you can cast that spell, I just want to remind you that actions have consequences and your god could take issue with this. Would you like to continue or do you want to rewind that choice? Thinking it over he agreed that the sillyness of the moment got the better of him but three dead innocents would certainly not be in character for his cleric nor would his god approve. Communication is key, something the DM of the OP's story lacked.

[@Lowraith]

This story resonates pretty hard for me. Back in college (early 2000s) I was in a 2e AD&D Planescape campaign, and played an Aasimar Paladin Mercykiller from Sigil. I played that character Good Good, with a side of Law. That was one of the most enjoyable characters I've ever played, gallivanting across the Planes. Right up until when on one adventure out to a prime world, a Hag paralyzed the entire party (DM messed up and forgot about my Paladin's antimagic aura, which is a feature of wielding a Holy Avenger after a certain level). While we were unconscious, the DM said the Hag scrawled a cursed tattoo into my Paladin's face that changed his alignment to Chaotic Evil. This caused my Paladin to immediately Fall. My special Holy Mount left me, my Holy Avenger wouldn't let me touch it, and I lost all my innate and spellcasting powers. I was less powerful than an equal-level Fighter, as I hadn't gained all the Weapon Proficiencies and specializations that a Fighter would have received. The backstory for this Aasimar was that his father was an innocent human soul, and his mother was a Solar in the service of a god of Mount Olympus in the Upper Planes. His entire goal in life was to spread goodness wherever he went, and eventually become worthy of someday physically standing at his mother's side in service to her god. Only the purest of souls, with no marks on their record, could accomplish such a thing. And due to no action or decision on my part whatsoever, I was now a Fallen Paladin. I was never consulted about this change out of game. A major point in me creating and playing this specific character was, like the OP of this video, as a therapeutic escape into a "pure hero" role. I went along with it for a while, begrudgingly and mildly-defiantly playing the character more or less as True Neutral with constant urges to commit acts of evil that he suppressed. I suppose the DM thought this twist would make the story more interesting, but this wasn't the story I wanted to participate in telling. It wasn't fun anymore, at all. It was just incredibly frustrating. Though I couldn't have articulated it accurately at the time, I know now that my player agency had been violated. Though the DM did tease us with a string of quests that could eventually lead to the reversal of the curse and my atonement back to Paladin-hood, I eventually just got so frustrated with being forced to play a type of character I had no interest in playing that I made my Paladin just take a knife and carve off the tattooed flesh from his face, removing the curse at cost of great pain and damage. The DM allowed this, but punished me for avoiding his elaborate plot by scarring my character, and dropping his Charisma score several points (which was a much bigger deal in 2E than 3E and beyond). Fine, I thought. Now that I'm good again (but still Fallen, as I hadn't atoned for the... "sin" of rolling poorly and being kidnapped, I guess?), I visited a powerful priest and had them cast the highest level healing spell in the game: Heal. This spell was supposed to restore all physical damage, remove nearly all types of negative conditions, etc. The first sentence in the spell's description: "The very potent heal spell enables the priest to wipe away disease and injury in the creature who receives the benefits of the spell." The DM let my Paladin go and spend the small fortune on casting that spell, and then declared that the Heal spell didn't explicitly say anything about scars, so my character was still scarred and I was basically SOL on all my Social encounters. The DM grew bored shortly after that session and dropped the campaign, instead seeking to try out some other settings and TRPG systems. Which was a real shame. At the time, we were both still a little green, being just a couple of college kids fresh out of their parents' houses. He and I were really good friends, and he was an incredibly intelligent and creative person. I enjoyed just spending time talking story shop with him, and trading writing ideas. That game remains to this day the game in which I had both my best experiences as a player and my worst. But it taught me an extremely valuable lesson that I have tried to apply to every game that I have DM'd for the past 15-20 years since then: RESPECT PLAYER AGENCY, and communicate honestly and often with your players/DM when you have an idea to change the story, or when some part of the story or character is starting to become problematic.

[@liamdalemon1525]

(alternate ending for the campaign) future shaman: I will now unleash the forces of hell! Shaman: NOT IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT! Future Shaman: wait what? what would I do? Shaman: it's what you have already done! (shaman kills himself) Future Shaman: man I am an idiot! (disappears)

[@gamejunky3040]

*You created a time Paradox!!!*

[@emberfist8347]

You know he should have faded from existence they purged the Litch from his soul.

[@liamdalemon1525]

@Tyler Coon wait does that mean that the players were playing in an alternate timeline the entire game?

[@AlexMartinez-ts4mk]

Yeah, I’d have bounced after being told I had fallen. No warning about it would have been enough for a fu for me to permanently leave

[@JoshtheOverlander]

Okay, how the hell wouldn't the god of OP's faith notice a demon attaching itself to their follower's soul if they're bothering to meet them?

[@austinaxley81]

Yeah, the GM should always be making the players aware of the status of their characters a player might not know the subtleties of their paladin's patron deity and their commands but the Paladin definitely would. I do agree with the first two strikes but given that the rules specify how the non-lethal damage works the whole combat should have been treated as non-lethal.

[@Krystabit]

This reminds me of the phrase "When you're looking through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags look normal." OP was so happy to be playing again, they ignored the warning signs. I'm glad they managed to at least learn something from it all, though.

[@moonlightshadowpony]

I think having a strike system or something like that might be good, or homebrewing some sort of way to explain various reasons for a class features, like a warlock having to give something up, not always a soul but maybe memories of a loved one, or a first born child or something like that. But you have to tell your party that. You cant just one day go to your warlock and say "oh sorry, you cant go into the celestial plane because you're inherintly immoral" "but i'm a lawful good warlock with a heavenly patron?" "yeah... but in my setting all warlocks have to murder their firstborn to be able to get their abilities, which is an unlawful thing so as long as you have those powers you're a bad person." Also bros before foes? Even if your barbarian is taken over by a rage spell that makes him want to kill everyone and it's easier to stop them than attempt to fight the lich with an astonishing 20 AC?

[@jonathanstern5537]

The saying I usually subscribe to is, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

[@stephentharp6770]

I once had a DM tell me I lost my paladinship cuz I used a non-healing/buff spell on an ally. To give a brief summary it was a homebrew world, my paladin was party of a homebrew order of St.Isaac. I was not told how much I'd be hated by the world, even though the DM talked highly of this order he had made. Being a pacifists redemption paladin I ignored all attack to my person and my order. But that can only last so long. After all the npcs the turmoil of the story going downhill cuz the party never picked the right choice. I then had to speak for the party for safe refuge in a city controlled by giants. Negotiations fail due to the giants hate my order due to an ancient war they assist the other side in. We were barely allowed to stay there and got a job from them due to my Channel Divinty which allowed me to have advantage on charisma checks. The party had dinner that night in the giant dinner hall and the party were verbally attacking me for all my screw up and trying to blame me for all that has happened when I've been the one trying to avoid every mistake we've made. The the fighter what I thought was my paladins only friend, yells at my saying its because of my order and my representation of them that is gonna lead us to death...... I HAVE HAD IT AT THIS POINT. I did what my character would do, I yelled SILENCE, casting command to stop these attacks on me. The fighter succeeded and flipped the table and attacked me with his halberd he was aloud to have cuz he needed it as a walking stick, struck me. I stood there as the weapons pommel was in my gut. I then looked to my friend and said one single word to him. "Freeze" casting command on him again. This time he failed and I walk away out the giant hall leaving my friend frozen in place. Camped outside of the town in the freezing weather in my tent. After the session the DM messages me and says I had lost my paladinship. I asked him why and he told me I used a nonfriendly spell on an ally. I pleaded my case and he gave me a decision. Fall from grace and use what spells you have left or become an oathbreaker paladin. I was dumbstruck. How could I make a decision like that with a character I actually played to the fullest and loved. I ended up choosing the fall from grace and have what spells I had left. Lucky for me that story didn't go any further as this DM turns out never finishes a campaign. I just wish to play Stephanos the Centaur pacifist paladin of redemption in a game and DM that deserves him

[@HmmWelp]

I always give my players some kind of hint, our Conquest paladin (serving the storm lord) for example in COS, Strahd had just finished beating the breaks off them, and told them to kneel before him. She almost did. Then she felt an angry heat rise from her symbol, and a massive lightning bolt struck nearby. She did not kneel, Strahd is now considering her to replace him. (Though if course none end up worthy)

[@gregissimo6700]

These videos are so good for inspiration. I am a new aspiring DM and I'm making an online campaign for me and my friends (none of us have ever played DnD so all of us will be learning on the go basically) and many of these videos are giving me many new ideas. As well... I have a plan to make my players (I'm starting them at level 2, because of backstories) encounter an adult silver dragon... at some point... So, depending on the party's actions, they will either get obliterated by one wing attack OR they will get some new information and potentially a very powerful ally (the dragon is lawful neutral btw). All I'm trying to say here - videos on this channel inspire me to think more in-depth about making NPCs and maybe not making monsters well, monsters, but maybe something more.

[@DemonKing19951]

This reminds me of playing with my old group. Those three guys were definitely looking to give the kid the 'new table top player' experience of punishing every decision. My personal GM style was actually influenced by it in the opposite direction, and I often feel like I'm a little too forgiving which my group sometimes yells at me for. (Like bruh I know you have 6 alternative characters literally ready but that doesn't mean I like killing characters.)

[@vinashiglannath4554]

When the Skeletal Figure was the future self of the Shaman, my eyes rolled almost out of my head.

[@Pointlesschan]

I don’t play and it made me twitchy

[@StormTronEladrin]

The DM should have told him what was happening I have had somewhere palms as well.

[@allthingsdnd]

Thorstein Wilhelm I thought it was the player’s fault too alongside the DM, not as much but some of it.

[@Kindatae]

I'mma say that punching urchins to unconsciousness is generally going to be a bad look, and this doesn't feel like an exception

[@roguepawn8963]

Awesome video, as always. On a separate note, a friend of mine from our current D&D group asked me to run a game for a small circle of if within said group. Now, I’m new to playing D&D, only having finally played this past October. I mention this because after watching your videos, I have in my world the Astoshan College of the Arcane.

[@Gormathius]

From the opening words I thought this was a much more complex matter than the title implies, but then the rest came and it became clear it was pretty much the DM wanting to warp his character. Especially the first and third strikes felt more like a dirty cop «finding» something than an actual critical ruling.

[@camel_of_the_mojave8772]

Something tells me that the guy who wrote this story didn't understand why the stereotype of lawful stupid exists. Because doing what is right is not always what is legal their law comes from a God a tangible God. Being good can have severe consequences which is why his God should have been specified as being chaotic or neutral in nature. Though I do want to agree that some of these strikes are very subjective in nature and should have been talked through beforehand

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Personally, I would have liked if Lawful was instead "Order" as to many people tie it to 'The LAW!'

[@camel_of_the_mojave8772]

@@lostbutfreesoul honestly as long as someone brought it up beforehand I wouldn't mind changing a whole campaigns around just to fit something like that in just so I can build a proper campaign that people can enjoy

[@danielhounshell2526]

here's the thing, a god doesn't have to be neutral or chaotic in order to prioritize good actions over a code of conduct. Lawful does not mean following the laws of the land, it means you have a code that you follow. Moreover, if those two aspects come into conflict with one another, it is outright necessary to choose one over the other, and for a lawful good deity, that will most often be the good action over the lawful one.

[@Dragab1119]

Ok, I’m my group’s DM for D&D, but I have played some pathfinder at conventions and whatnot, so I have a basic idea of how the game works. All I can say is that I usually side with the DM/GM on issues such as this, but even my bias isn’t enough for this story. A player has the right to play their character the way they want, and not be forced to fit the ideals of the GM or the party. While you do need to respect your fellow group members, remember it’s ok to stand up for yourself. I’ve had some players tell me that they think something I did was unfair, and I’ve actually changed my mind on some things because of this. While it does sting a GM’s pride a little, a good GM is always ready to bend. After all, role play games such as these are about building a narrative with your friends, not forcing a story down somebody’s throat. Well, that’s my opinion anyway.

[@ultamatenexusmerc5573]

As a reminder for something very true when it comes to any Lawful Good character, “I’m Lawful Good, not Lawful Nice.”

[@KurasakubiSaurn]

Of all the parties I've been in, I remember only once Paladin. The one who untied the prisoner we were transporting, and gave them a piece of chalk when they asked. I remember because the prisoner our paladin demanded we treat well turned out to be a Binder, not a wizard like we thought they were. I've never personally played a Paladin. Mostly because I've played rangers or full casters by default. If I ever do, I'd want to borrow ideas from the Stormlight Archives. Swearing a series of binding oaths that form the character's code, and being clear that falling is the result of going back on the spirit of one of those oaths, not the letter.

[@Nukestarmaster]

That is pretty textbook Lawful stupid, you don't untie the hands of a captured enemy caster, ever.

[@kefkamadman]

I've always wanted to play a Paladin that falls. Usually morality or a newfound love for the campaign itself stymies my attempts. Or a DM who's too dense to pick up what I'm laying down. "I want my character to Fall, I have ideas for my character that are just badass." Oh well, one day.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Pathfinder has a concept called the Gray Paladin, but I don't know if the uptight society allows Archetypes. Drops the requirements to be lawful and allows a wider selection of gods, such as the big C.C. or my favorite Arshea! In my opinion, the problem with the Paladin isn't the lawful requirements but the extremely restricted selection of gods. This is because the paladin will be 100% faithful to the cause of that deity, or else! Limiting the choice of deities limits the type of paladins that can be played at the table, and hence the cooky cutter outcome. Personally, talk to your Storyteller as it is not RAW, but you should be allowed any god one alignment away from your own. If you do something that God doesn't like, say allow someone to Raise the Dead as a Gray Paladin of Pharasma, expect the worse.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

For an extra giggle look up what the Obedience for Arshea is and imagine a Gray Paladin of said deity. Needless to say though, that Gray Paladin will be very active in the Abolitionist movement with extra hatred towards human trafficking for... passionate hugging... purposes. Likely the last thing many a slaver would see is a righteous blade falling onto their heads, carried by one of the Gray feathers of Arshea. Yet, in many a city, they will frequent many a house of **Coughs** where the hugging is consensual.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Concur with the ending of this video: You do not get Three Strikes and your Out, your power is gone the very first time you screw up. However, there should be a solid code of conduct worked out well before the game begins as to what your Deity expects out of you. These can be literal lists of do's and don'ts! The Player needs to know how it works, not something you conceal from them, cause it is something the Character knows what their oath entails. Thus it is something the *Player* should have the most input on, working it all out before time and being able to call a time out to further discuss anything that might come up in game. So the Paladin falls from grace when they willfully break their oath with their Deity, not accidentally!

[@danielhounshell2526]

Most PF games I've seen homebrew their settings, so for the most part a limited selection in the rulebook isn't really a problem most of the time, as not that many games actually use those gods.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

@@danielhounshell2526 , I will admit this was a failing of my own, for the longest of times. Then I decided to tell the players what happen after their characters die... made everything a lot deeper for us all.

[@roucouk18]

I have run in adult games with adult players and the GM will ask what motivated "strange" actions from the paladin. If the player comes up with a good explanation, nothing untowards happens, because faith is also personal, even in d&d.

[@heartless0n3]

You wouldnt be told about your alignment change but a demon somehow manipulating lawful good dieties magic? That dm also fell from grace lmao

[@nintendoboy3605]

That actually sounds like a good story, an evil force taking control of the gods/goddesses magic causing the fall of Paladins that didn't deserve to fall, causing Cleric magic to go horribly wrong. If I ever run actual DnD (and not my homebrew Mario DnD) I might consider running a campaign with this story.

[@heartless0n3]

@@nintendoboy3605 its def original, but I would suggest limiting your players understanding of whats happening to force investigation. I find that the more open ended you leave it the more great ideas come to you as a dm.

[@nintendoboy3605]

@@heartless0n3 Thank you, if I ever do actually run this I will keep your advice in mind.

[@nathanschuler7587]

Ahhh the difficulties of playing paladin. Good times! In one campaign I was playing a gnoll paladin (Warrior of the Holy Light technically) and the party had cornered this mad scientist who had been experimenting with steampunk tech and vivisecting some of the locals. In the boss fight he'd knocked together a primitive steampunk mech suit that we had to trash, but even when we pried him out of the cockpit he continued to struggle. After verbally trying to get him to surrender several times I decided to give him a few nonlethal whacks with my greatsword. One of them wound up critting with max damage and wound up caving his skull in. Both our GM and the rest of the party thought it was hilarious and it's become something of a meme in the group, but thankfully wasn't ruled a strike.

[@sonicroze]

I love my lawful good paladin, also Pathfinder and a follower of Iomedae. The campaign is Curse of the Crimson Throne. My character is an Aasamir on top of that. Our players are mostly on the good side with our half-ifrit Barbarian and catfolk "psychic investigator" a little closer to the chaotic side. I miss my group dearly, but I love how my character is developing. I read up on Iomedae and what he tenants are, honor in combat being a top priority (of course). First into the fray, last to leave, I can totally do that, no problem. So I see that nothing is said about drinking or other things, so my Paladin enjoys mead at whatever tavern he finds himself in. I also used the racial trait to disguise him as a skeevy enemy we'd captured to lure a guard away from some children that were being forced to labor for a local crime boss. My character is not a pacifist, but prefers not to start a conflict where avoidable. Once combat begins, he's in it to win it for the most part. (We did retreat from some evil tentacle thing we accidently woke up at one point. While he acknowledges that he sensed evil, he also recognized it was not a fight we could win, nor was it our immediate mission/ purpose to do so) I was so happy the first time Tennolan got truly pissed off was at a guy who worked for another LG god because they were charging an unreasonable fee to cure plague victims (in this case, a child) and he shamed him into healing the boy. (Theological differences ftw). We later retrieved a book belonging to a chaotic evil goddess and I was the one who suggested selling it to the merchant gods' people. They asked why I didn't turn it over to a temple of Iomedae and I said that I believed the tome contained valuable information (true) and would have been destroyed at the temple of Iomedae (also true), but that it was not my place to decide its fate and they would probably find more value in it (again, not incorrect) and privately, my character was very happy to basically bill that temple in retribution for their lack of charity (yes, some of the money we got for that book went to paying for medical care for villagers). My dude was also the only one in the party willing to trust an NPC of lawful evil alignment because we had mutual goals. He only trusted her to be their friend as long as they were on the same task, he was fully expecting betrayal after they'd fulfilled their agreement. Hasn't actually been betrayed and I still find it funny Sam (catfolk) was the suspicious one when he sold drugs we found in one of our adventures. Out of character, my paladin hadn't seen the drugs so I told Sam's player "my character doesn't know anything about the drugs. Long as you keep it that way, he will assume any party gold came from selling extra spears and armor" and Sam had no reason to tell him so there's never been any conflict lol. My paladin also lends Sam credibility when we're talking to NPCs. (Sam will try to be shady and not state our business plainly, so Tennolan will say what we're doing, though not necessarily everything or why we're doing it... just what's "need to know")

[@dustinsollars2355]

Everyone keep saying that punching the kid and knocking him/her out was bad, but look at it this way. As soon as the GM decided to have the Character mobbed it became a combat situation, there is no two ways about it. It could be children, old men, women, unicorns, it doesn't matter. Punishing a Character for a act of generosity by having him/her mobbed is seen as a hostile action. That the Character did a knockout blow is actually kudos in my book, and very restrained. Remember this is a fantasy realm, not only fantasy but Medieval fantasy, things are brutal and you really don't know if the kid that just pickpocketed your gear (Sorry still have to call bullshit on loosing the sword and belt) is actually a kid, not some kind of shapeshifting demon or dragon or something.

[@danieldempsey8297]

I just want to note that all monsters with stat drain or manipulation/debuff/intent semi death abilities are all a cr + 4 whatever it's posted

[@kentaylor5728]

This reminds how i got on of my players into being a serial killer that became a demon. Gotta love my homebrew evil book

[@Roadblock911]

This is a case of the table having a bias against paladins. When I DM with a paladin or multiple paladins in the party I review my notes of what went down every session and compare the paladins actions not to human rules of ethics but to what his deity would perceive as right and ethical. If you are serving a god of law, and you ignore the law to do the 'good' thing that would be a step towards falling. If you serve a primarily good deity and you enforced a cruel law, that would be a step. A fall should never happen without warning. A paladin in danger of falling should receive visions or dreams from their god, warning them of the path they are on and remind them of their oaths. There will always be those one off things where a single act causes a fall, but those should be so blatant that anyone looking would know thats gonna cost ya. Bar the door to an orphanage and burn it with the children inside, yeah you fall. Chop a thieves hand off reguardless of weather or not hes a minor, thats a step towards a fall. As for the paladin getting arrested for knocking out a thief, this town has some perverted laws if theft is perfectly allowable but defending ones property is a crime.

[@blackmark2899]

See this is why you play Oath of Conquest Paladin. Not a single one of those strikes would be valid. Kobolds? They were enemies needing to be put down. Urchins? They dared to steal from me, death is their reward and the reward for those complacent in their behavior. The dragon? Keep your allies alive until they are spent furthering your goals.

[@irontemplar6222]

Ok what I think is ridiculous. Is the fact that street urchins somehow lifted a paladin of his magic longsword, belt of giant strength, and a bag of memories. I dont care how many of them there are. NO soldier would have had his weapons pick pocket by children they would sooner knock the kids into each other.

[@malakhaj2391]

I got the vaping ad. "You MAY BE inhaling toxic mettles into you longs." Am I or am I not, Helen? LOL

[@imeize]

It’s amazing how we humans as youngsters never learn except the hard way. I’ve got similar experiences playing MMO’s when I was younger and blundering into a lot of the same pitfalls the people in these stories do! I’m glad to hear you learned and are in a better place, OP!

[@Draconea77717]

To quote my dm: "how much do you tip the stable boy?" Party member: "um a gold?" Dm: "the stable boy runs to the open door of the inn and shouts 'I quit!' And runs home clutching the gold you just paid him"

[@spellmender7902]

I think your first two strikes were valid: 1) You coup-de-gras'd enemies who were stable and completely neutralized. 2) You punched a kid in the gut out of rage and frustration; not out of justice or righteousness. I think that up to that point what the GM ruled was actually ok. However, the incident wit the Magus, the demon possession, and the girlfriend were all unwarranted. I chalk that up to poor GMing. It's important to know your players. In-game twists are perfectly fine, but when it directly affects the players' backgrounds (such as falling from grace or a traitorous girlfriend) there should at least be some warning, or coordination between the player and GM. I agree with all of the points you made at the end of the video about communicating expectations between players and GMs. Glad you found a group you jive with! Also glad you're striving to play clever heroes rather than traditional ones.

[@zanewilkins9548]

I normally do not play Paladin because of similar stipulations such as stuff like this and usually if I decide to play a paladin I started when I was a cleric first and then do a class cleric is one of my favorite classes because there's a little bit more leeway and the gods you serve in D&D or Pathfinder but I understand having bad college experience cuz I'm undergoing some of those myself right now especially since his covid-19 crisis or I'm dyslexic and have learning disabilities such as ADHD as well it makes it hard honestly I'm praying for a miracle to happen for me to pass my classes really worried about it but back to the main topic I have never played with a bros before foes mentality is a DM if you are a paladin you're playing it right you're supposed to do what you're supposed to do

[@williamfalls]

Yeah... I wouldn't have joined the sessions again if I was told, though Facebook messenger sometime later, that my character lost it's class and presented a homebrew Three Strike Rule not agreed upon before I started playing with the underline reason being "Bros before Foes". That's like the "get good" Dark Souls line of DnD.

[@XX-sp3tt]

4:27 Hidden mechanics are all well and good... but from this point of view... yeah.

[@SirStanleytheStumbler]

The DM is completely at fault. They should have warned before issuing the first strike and it sounds like they didn't understand how a Paladin is played.

[@addison_v_ertisement1678]

11:32If people really think that's misogynistic, then they aren't ready for the real world.

[@frogfellow8773]

I'll admit, the lich being a future version of the shaman is a interesting twist.

[@chilly456]

"Paladin plays like a human being, gets punished for it."

[@ernestlam5632]

Bad days make good stories and good stories make you interesting at parties

[@rhettbell1828]

I love Paladins both as player and DM, it requires open communication between both parties, I'm sure the player made mistakes but the DM has the biggest responsibility

[@logannichols5848]

I kind of feel like the first 2 strikes were reasonable, but the DM sould have talked about the 3 strike rule ahead of time.

[@Demonamic777]

DM not telling you shit is happening, even privately is a huge fucking failure.

[@Mavrik9000]

That MD was the worst of meta gamers.

[@diobrando9842]

I know it’s not related to the story, but the music is mesmerizing

[@hatsanddragons]

Ultimately, this is a case where the DM failed to communicate with the Player about how certain things worked. The DM should have told the OP about the three strike system long before they got all three strikes (right before they got the first strike at the latest so the OP could have a chance to back out if they wanted), but instead the DM said nothing and it snowballed into this situation. It doesn't matter how you feel about how Paladins should be played or how you think a Paladin falling from grace works, in the end it's a failure in communication.

[@kristophertarter2945]

Having secret rules practically guarantees that one or more of those rules WILL be broken at some point during the game.

[@lokiwhacker]

1st off I feel like there are always at least 2 sides to a story. And something definitely feels off when OP is the one that gets kicked out. Could be that he was the toxic one.

[@IntergalacticPants]

When I DM games, if someone is playing a class that has an alignment requirement, I will warn them either in game through story telling, or out of game, that they're close to losing their alignment. Anyone else just gets a notification later that they had an alignment shift.

[@blindedjourneyman]

Not a bad video. Weird bunch. I wish I could play so badly. Everyones stories always highlight just how much fun and worth there is in the long term investment of sessions. Many even become books or even a mapped concept for a game! Maybe once this virus stuff blows over and I get a stable job I can buy the basics for dnd.

[@andrewt3045]

Should of just tried to get the GF NPC "Megan, Our girl!"

[@Things_I_wish_I_knew]

Sounds like, for consistency sake on both what I understand of how they wanted to play the paladin, and with the design of the campaign... communication was a bit lacking for intent/fallout and the DM wasn't staying consistent either... I mean I get how important it is to "vibe" with a group it helps a lot, but just like the player I think I'd agree, both parties were at fault... its just that the player was more in the right than the dm.

[@chillinlee]

Killing an foe who has been knocked unconscious during combat is neither Good nor Evil. It's simply a valid attack option. By this logic, it would be considered evil to launch a surprise attack. Lawful Good is one of those parts of the game where a literal translation makes no sense. All you have to do is act like you are unconscious, then all of a sudden Lawful Good types have to leave you alone? In such a world, Lawful Good characters would have been killed off by more reasonable types.

[@lockwoan01]

That DM obviously failed the Social Check. They should have at least told the OP about the Check List they had or something. I mean, in the campaign I play in, got a dwarf (cleric, I think?) who has such terrible luck, they have negative modifiers to their Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma (Let's just say that one of his more foolish things was eating raw black dragon meat, which burned his lower jaw - no skin and (more importantly for a dwarf) no beard.) That being said, the whole "My guy is ugly" thing is something that the player gave the OK to the DM for.

[@sethlester1659]

If I did a three strike rule for paladins falling from grace, I wouldn't tell my players either. I'd figure such knowledge to be meta-game. However, as soon as the paladin started falling, they would find themselves getting visions and messages from their deity during their next long rest. I like the rules of my games to be hidden and conveyed only when necessary and in a way that is learned in the game as part of the story.

[@deathsheir2035]

I don't see any problem with paladin killing sleeping enemies, IF, they were forced to be asleep by a party memeber. It would have been totally different had the kobolds been surrendering, or were already asleep before combat started (and managed to stay asleep despite combat happening around them). So good on OP for taking advantage of forced slumber to kill your enemy. An enemy put under a spell, is still a danger, because the moment that spell wears off, they become your enemy once again... Of course, you could have also tied them up, and made them 100% helpless, even after the spell wears off. That would have worked too, and likely the option most people would think a paladin would take when it comes to such a scenario.

[@kindoflame]

I think what is really tragic about this story is that it sounds like a pretty interesting campaign, but the DM just messed up in the delivery.

[@theblazingcrusader6322]

“I was in my 20s and the others where in their 30s” I felt that. Can’t find anyone around my age who plays dnd or pathfinder, at least locally

[@aeronfrazier3061]

This story gave me a bit of an idea for my campaign

[@CaptainRed1000]

if a paladin is gonna fall, it should be because they violated the rules of the faith they follow, not because of arbitrary acts of evil.

[@MathewDHennen]

A little late to the party. But here's the rub. Iomedae's code if fairly stringent. However as it pertains to the three strikes. 1: The coup de grace. That's actually pretty straight forward, they were a known evil race, and unless they gave you any reason to doubt then you were in the clear. 2: This one is trickier, you're not allowed to do anything "base" or that would bring Ionedae dishonor. HOWEVER her whole thing is fighting off the world wound, and it would be highly unlikely for her to not empower her Paladin who is in a such a situation as to stop another instance of evil outsiders flooding in. 3: Again there is a bit of grey here, but that's because of the lack of a definition for "Fellows" you are supposed to have both trust and faith in them. However, does "fellows" mean party members and friends? Or does it mean "fellows" in the religious sense, such as other clerics, paladins and clergy of Ionedae. So you can make arguments from either direction but on the whole you'd should still have been in the clear. I don't believe this DM knew your Paladin Code very well.

[@sbollimpalli]

1:40 I feel a spiritual connection to what chars this guy plays