Narrators and The Malazan Book of the Fallen (Spoilers for Whole Series)

[@stevelundin5705]

Erikson here (no, wait! Lundin here, but not that Lundin. This Lundin. No, hold on. Uh, Erikson here, but not Steven Erikson, just Erikson, because this is A.P. I'm replying to, but wait, other people might read this, so it must be Steven Erikson, not just Erikson and definitely not Lundin, but then I've already set the precedent of just using Erikson here on YT, so I guess we're stuck with Erikson which is probably just as well, since Lundin's a hoser anyway -- not this Lundin, but that Lundin). All you other folks: now you know what I have to deal with on a regular basis. At the same time, now you know why I choose to have this, too. Imagine it from my perspective: attending a conference and feeling like a fifth-wheel and then meeting a grad student who says enough stuff to make me think 'huh, this guy might make a good advance reader,' all of which led to a long friendship and endless hours of debate and discussion and shared experiences and all the rest. And now at last, others can witness what I've known all along about A.P. Regardless of the Malazan side of things, this vid could do well as a primer to all book-tubers in terms of critical analysis. So, for what it's worth (from Erikson, no, wait...), that was a brilliant vid, and yeah, you pretty much exposed all the inner workings of the Malazan Book of the Fallen and its complicated relationship to Erikson/Lundin ... except for one crucial thing that's missing. Kam-in-sod. Cam-and-Steve. Sure, made me a sod, but most days, yeah, pretty much.

[@ACriticalDragon]

And still you expose the fraud that I am with pointing out that I missed the blinding obvious, Cam is going to make fun of me for hours over this. I will always be a grad student trying to catch up with you. For the years of friendship (even the car journeys) I am profoundly grateful, which is why it is so much fun to deny your existence. :) Thank you Steve/Lundin/Erikson/Author/Hoser.

[@stevelundin5705]

@@ACriticalDragon It's sad when I realize that I am becoming increasingly transparent, unto insubstantiality, soon to be a mere figment of a rather sordid imagination (yours, not mine).

[@ACriticalDragon]

Sordid imagination? Me? Surely thou jest. I have read your books, I know exactly what sort of imagination you have.

[@claudiaiovanovici7569]

The Kam-in-sod thing was brilliant! And I must say very hard to notice. I mean, Kam could have been obvious. But the sod bit... not so much. Which is precisely what makes it so brilliant. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[@colinjones5379]

But what about Steve, arch-villain of the ten very big books podcast? Is he in the room?

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

“I don’t mind ruining people’s day with literary theory” - ha ha! Well, you failed to ruin my day. In fact, with your clear explanation of hypodiegetic and external diegetic elements, you’ve enriched my understanding and appreciation of this tremendous series yet again. I feel like I have a clearer grasp of the roles of the various versions of Kaminsod and Kruppe, both their narrator and character versions. These roles aren’t just authorial cleverness - they forward the series’ theme by creating a perception of the Crippled God that becomes completely upended, especially as the realization that Kaminsod is the narrator sinks in. Brilliant stuff, and thanks so much!

[@ACriticalDragon]

If I am going to ruin someone's day with theory a university better be paying me. 😛 I am sure that the vast majority of this was a bit tedious for you, but at least there was part of it that was of interest. Always great to hear from you. Thank you for starting me on this journey. I will always be grateful.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@ACriticalDragon Well, I’m certainly glad you’ve embarked on it! Also, I forgot to mention my big smile with Kaminsod’s identity reveal at the end of this video. I, for one, am hoping for an authorial reaction!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Hope you enjoyed his reaction. :)

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@ACriticalDragon The best! Especially the hoser and the sod parts.

[@SannasBookshelf]

I like the idea of Kruppe being a guest director on Kaminsod's show. I'm sure he'd completely derail the story and then return the reins to Kaminsod in a much different place from where he'd imagined he'd get back control. Although, knowing Kruppe, it would probably be exactly where the story needed to go.

[@ACriticalDragon]

I will never get the image of Kruppe leaving a tv studio in smoking ruins and Kaminsod standing there in disbelief with a takeaway coffee saying, 'But I was only gone for ten minutes' out of my head now... ever... and that is a good thing. Thank you so much for that.

[@iliyanbogdanov1220]

Here I am, after 55 minutes where my attention to what you're saying did not falter for a second! You popped up on my radar around my favourite Malazan booktubers and I still can't believe the level of charisma you have about you, when talking about subjects you love. Keep going, Sir, as I'm 100% sure I'm not alone when I say that every opening and closing of that warren you have for a mouth is more enthralling than Mockra :)

[@ACriticalDragon]

Thank you very much. I am glad that you enjoyed the video. I will endeavour to come up with some more entertaining ones.

[@NiflrogsFolly]

"I'm not claiming you're dead, I'm denying your existence altogether" 😂 Buuurn Steven The degree of sophistication and precision with which many of these concepts are studied seems fascinating to me. It's great to know that what I described... from intuition or empirically, has such a well-defined theory. I'd love to watch a lecture on the subject ( one in which you don't skip the boring parts 😂). Also, Semiotics... just when I'm discovering Wittgenstein! This video was very enlightening. Thanks! And thanks for the mention too!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Hi Niflrog, as I said, your video was brilliant, I really enjoyed it. I am glad that this had something of interest for you, even though you had already done all the analysis. :)

[@FranzBrehme]

I will comment here since I believe is the best place... @Niflorg's Folly and @A Critical Dragon 's videos made me think about the series name: The Malazan Book OF THE FALLEN. I am Brazilian and Chilean and my mind always tries to determine if "the" is singular or plural (in both Portuguese and Spanish we have this "division"). In my first reading, and until few months ago (I am on my second re-read, currently at The Bonehunters), I was firmly inclined to embrace the plural of the Fallen. And that is an acceptable interpretation - the most obvious one. BUT due to you both, guys, I just found out the layer behind the layer... Kaminsod was there from the beginning, in the title... Because this is HIS Malazan book... and that gave to me another possibility to interpret the series title. [Insert "Mind Blowing Meme" here] Thank you very much. Amazing video! I am fascinated by APs field of studies and his ability to make it all very clear and understandable.

[@NiflrogsFolly]

@@FranzBrehme :) As a Native Spanish speaker, I totally relate. I read the series in English, but the issue with grammatical number and appropriate translation for contextual effects is a source of constant wonder to me. Not just number, but translation in general, like: "Jardines de la luna" or "LOS jardines de la luna"? 😂 The only one I have mild issues is with Toll the Hounds. They translated it as "Doblan por los mastines". But Hound is more like Sabueso. Where did they get mastines from? it's a different variety of dogs (Mastiff, I it is). And the polysemy of Toll in english isn't replicate with "Doblan". So the dual interpretation "toll: pay the price" and "toll: the bells for the Hounds" is lost. Anyway, I'm glad my thoughts have contributed to your enjoyment of the series! It's always good to hear. That's truly the reason for me to make those videos.

[@OneMoreMeme_INeedYou]

Wow, this was mind expanding. Talking on diegesis, how it can have multiple layers, and how characters slip through them, while hard to follow, is extremely fascinating and topics I’ve thought about a lot, and was enthralled with regarding this series myself. What impresses me is how Erikson does such a great job of priming all this for the reader in GoTM, like you mentioned with the opening poem. I have a little anecdote to lend credence to this that I find funny: the first time I read GoTM, and I saw Kruppe make a comment about how the symbolism of drowning cats went over his head; and while I am by no means a literary expert, I vaguely picked up on the meta nature of this character, his nudge-and-wink gestures being a proxy for Erikson and the interplay between narrator and author/story (although obviously not even close to their full extent or grasping the significance they will have in the overall narrative.) Again, I’m not claiming any credit for picking this up, it’s all Erikson. My favorite aspect of the meta nature of the narrative is how it (in knowing it is a work of fiction) adds such a heightened sense of -often almost theatrical- dramatization and how characters will often openly discuss and be impacted by the symbolism and subtext, and how you get this sense of altered reality where 6 year olds can have these philosophical discussions. It gave a real sense of layered fantastical mystery the first time through and a brilliant reframing of understanding the second time through. The best part of all this is how it can be enjoyed on different levels. I think the opening poem -and all the epigraphs for that matter- is a good example (I was going to leave this comment on your DG prologue analysis but did not find the time): even if you don’t pick up on the deeper layers, it explicitly, as you have mentioned, lends so much to the tone, immersion and (what I immediately found and continued to find one of the most compelling aspects of the series) the sense of gravitas. This was a brilliant video and probably the most important analysis I’ve seen on this series, thank you for taking the time to share your insights.

[@ACriticalDragon]

I am so very pleased that you enjoyed it. And thank you for the very kind words. As you point out, it is all Erikson. He weaves such a brilliant narrative that there is material for weeks upon weeks of videos. The fact that this narrative can sustain not only multiple readings, but multiple levels and styles of analysis, and each time yield new and interesting information and insight, is one of the incredibly impressive aspects of Erikson's series, and, at least in my opinion, is one of the reasons that the MBotF is one of the greatest fantasy series ever written.

[@jagarrsemla5537]

Thank you for introducing me to the word “hypodiegetic” which I will be hurling about recklessly in all my future conversations. Woe to my coworkers. As always, a great video and I’m sure I’ll be re-watching it many times.

[@ACriticalDragon]

Cry 'Havoc!' and let slip the diegesis of war... Thanks for watching.

[@nathancarpathia9591]

Another great vid, keep them coming man. I'm just so happy and grateful that this series is getting so much attention as of late, it's wild. Wilder still, we have Erikson himself popping in on vids and comments, not to mention that Lundin guy. 😋

[@RafBlutaxt]

When it comes to narators, I feel one could make a case for (at least parts of) Deadhouse Gates being narated by Duiker at the end of Memories of Ice and (parts of) Midnight Tides being narated by Trull Sengar at the end of House Of Chains. Both obviously not in the direct way Toll The Hounds is narated by Kruppe. Excellent point on the way works of fiction change over time with the example of the Iliad. I've plans to look on that particular topic some more in another video on mythology and Malazan in the future as well.

[@MrLikeaboss81]

I'm going to have a massive backlog of videos by the time I finish Malazan (on Memories of Ice right now). Be ready for a chunk of views in 5-8 months time...

[@ACriticalDragon]

I look forward to it. Enjoy Memories of Ice. It is a great book.

[@oxylus7223]

Thank you, A.P. It's fascinating to see the structure behind what Erikson has done here. Between you, Niflrog, Philip Chase and Ruthan Badd, I feel like I'm getting a pretty good introduction to studying English Literature. :)

[@ACriticalDragon]

Glad you enjoyed it. Those other channels are brilliant and I am a big fan of them. Thanks for watching.

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

This was perfect timing. Finished the day's work and just went on youtube and tanaaaa, new video from you! :) We're watching as we speak, and, of course, it's a pleasure to listen to you :) L.E. - this was quite extraordinary. I guess I miss literary theory classes! Thank you very much for this videos! P.S.- glad to see Sub Pres GotM is still there, and kudos for the Willful Child book on display :)

[@ACriticalDragon]

I hope you enjoyed the video.

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

@@ACriticalDragon oh I really did! Thank you!

[@ACriticalDragon]

You are very welcome. I always worry that I go to far into academic mumbo-jumbo but hopefully it made sense.

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

@@ACriticalDragon I don't think you are ever going too far into academic mumbo-jumbo, I like it when you do that. It's very crisp and beautiful. And it does make sense. :) Can't wait to see the next video :) P.S. I disagree about the mumbo-jumbo part, as I don't see it as mumbo-jumbo.

[@jeroenadmiraal8714]

That was really enlightening and not that hard to follow, thank you very much! I learned some new words today.

[@ACriticalDragon]

I am glad that it was of interest. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@RafBlutaxt]

Watching this while my own, slightly related video is uploading and my not very serious first thought was imagining that fictional tome, the book of the fallen with one of those author quotes on the backcover that Stephen King and GRRM seem to spend half their waking hours with creating. "A monument to suffering and futility with an unrealistic moral." (Gothos, author of "Gothos' Folly". I'll try to come up with a more reasonable comment later.

[@ACriticalDragon]

That sounds like the perfect book blurb :)

[@duffypratt]

I was going to post a long reply, but then it occurred to me that the A.P. who posted this no longer exists. It’s an excellent video. While I think there is a lot of value in this kind of analysis, I also am skeptical of using these sorts of skeptical arguments as the foundation of analysis, but not going all the way with the same arguments. Treading much the same ground, Hume showed that it’s irrational even to believe that the self exists. In other words, if you seriously walk down the path of this argument (which seems obviously to have a lot going for it), you would fairly quickly lose even the Cartesian “I”). On more solid ground (slightly), I’ve often wondered about the authenticity of some of the texts that form the basis of the chapter and book introductions. Take, for example, Felesin’s poem. What in the text lends the impression that she wrote stuff down? And when did she do it? You could extend the same to Toll the Hounds in its entirety. If what we are reading is Caminsod’s work, then how does Kruppe’s narrative come in. Are we seeing a transcription of Kruppe’s narrative, or is it Caminsod’s imagination of what that narrative would have been, or did he and Kruppe sit and have a long talk?

[@ACriticalDragon]

The value I find in these sorts of analyses is not in their rigid applications or even in their application to their fullest extent, but using them as tools to help deconstruct the narrative into different pieces and in different ways. Almost all theories can be applied ad absurdem to an illogical conclusion, especially when applied to fantastical texts that don't necessarily conform to standard narrative 'rules'. As a result I give myself multiple angles with which to approach analysis and see which points rise to the fore. So, with reference to Kruppe as narrator, I could say, 'Erikson liked that voice so chose it', call it a day, and move on. Alternatively I can try to understand what using Kruppe' voice changes about the narrative. The metalepsis of the dream sequences is one possible explanation. Kaminsod's undisclosed but hinted aspect of time is another. The idea of the physical Book of the Fallen being transcribed over time is yet another. Each of these approaches made apparent through the application of different analytical techniques then allows me to compare those results to the series proper to see if they add anything to my understanding of the text, to its themes, to the narrative, and so forth. So I personally gain value from deploying aspects of theory to assist in analysis. I generally view theory as a tool set or variable set of lenses, rather than the application of theory is its own reward. For Felisin's poem, we have a huge number of other examples as chapter epigraphs that link to other diegetic sources, events, and references, therefore I would argue that the starting position is one of assumed authenticity. If I wanted to make an argument that it was inauthentic then I would have to prove that, not vice versa. It is akin, at least to me, to arguing that if it is an unreliable narrator then nothing can be relied upon. Some texts specifically play with that very point, but it is generally signalled and deployed with intentionality and purpose. I don't see similar evidence in MBotF that would cause me to doubt the authenticity of the poem. But that would be my take on it.

[@duffypratt]

@@ACriticalDragon Agree with the first paragraph, except I don’t think the result is an “illogical conclusion.” Rather, the logical conclusion, while still logical, is also absurd. And yes, that’s always the natural endpoint of over-emphasizing unreliability. So the question, as you point out with Felesin’s poems, is how far to question, on what grounds, and who bears the burden of proof. With Felesin, there is an added wrinkle because there is more than one Felesin. But I agree with you on presuming they are authentic. I just don’t find it easy to picture the Felesin of Deadhouse Gates as an author. On a different aside, I wonder why so few people ever comment on the double meaning of the title. MBotF refers both to those who died, and to Kaminsod who, according to Quick Ben, literally fell from the sky into this world.

[@ACriticalDragon]

The Felisin of Gardens of the Moon is a well educated, precocious, noble... one might assume that such a person would write well received poetry. Or, at the very least, be well connected enough to have her poems published and distributed.

[@duffypratt]

@@ACriticalDragon At first, I was writing basically out of my ass, because I have wondered where Felesin and Toc the Younger found the time to write the stuff attributed to them. For Felesin, it appears that there are some explanations and some inconsistencies. In House of Chains, Felisin tells Heboric that she has rediscovered her love of poetry and is working on continuing the poem that was started by her mother. Not clear how she has a copy of that poem after all of her trials. Maybe she had committed it to memory. Anyway, with that in mind, its likely that some of the passages attributed to her are hers, but some of them might be her mother's. The Prologue to the who series {"The Emperor is Dead...") comes from book 1 of Call to Shadow. So its probably her mother's (but not necessarily). The other anomaly here is the date of her birth. In the mines, Felisin said she was 15, putting her birth year in 1149. But the Poem passages attribute her birth as being in 1146. I think one of the Eriksons (not sure which) got a kick out of that kind of discrepancy. Anyway, I like your videos, and like the motivation that this sort of thing gives me to dive a little deeper into seemingly meaningless, but rewarding details.

[@ACriticalDragon]

It is always good to hear from you. I love being able to discuss these things with other fans. So thank you so much for the comments. I really do appreciate them. Have a great weekend.

[@EricMcLuen]

While that was a very fascinating and informative video, the quote that kept running in my head was 'I'm a dude, playing a dude disguised as another dude.' The description of the hug from the two perspectives reminded me of the phrase from an old joke, or perhaps from a class, that 'You can't have too much water in the nuclear reactor' to show the importance of context and inferred intent. Which is very important when dealing with historical texts, and apparently fantasy novels. But in conclusion, these lectures are very interesting and don't feel like homework delving into literary analysis. Much like watching some of Rick Beato's what makes this song great videos, while I might not follow all the theory, it does add another level of appreciation the effort and subtleties put into the work without affecting the enjoyment of it.

[@ACriticalDragon]

I am really glad that you are enjoying these. There are so many different approaches to reading and understanding stories and narratives. My way of doing it is no more the right way than anyone else's... but I hope that these give insight into my 'working out' and show how I get to conclusions and opinions so that other people can see if the different techniques I use might be useful or interesting to them. I have to admit though, I was hoping it would affect your enjoyment of the books by enhancing them... but I will definitely settle for not ruining the books.

[@EricMcLuen]

@@ACriticalDragon No no no. I think you inferred something I didn't mean to imply. My train of thought has many tracks. I made the comment on one's Andy's video that after reading Malazan I read books differently. I am more aware of the various tools authors use. This author, in his various incarnations, uses more than most. This has not adversely affected my enjoyment of them. Rather, I now have a better understanding of why I like them so much for the methods used. Learning the magicians tricks as it were. I just don't go through such an in depth analysis, nor have the background to do so, of the text itself when reading for fun. Still picking up that vocabulary. I would be much more comfortable comparing and contrasting Erasmus and Luther's writings on predestination vs. free will. WhichI did read for fun. So in summary, I do enjoy analyzing and reading the text. Just in different ways and not necessarily at the same time. In my eventual third read through, there will probably be more of the former.

[@melc5038]

Love your contents regarding narration so so much AP! BUT, yes there is always a but, lol...I'm only on book 2 and cannot watch this video now😂 I marked it and will come back after I finish the series. I love the first book a LOT. People keep telling me sequels are way better and now I'm quite confident I will continue on haha. So I'd better see you in the next video! Good day AP!

[@ACriticalDragon]

I am very glad that you will be back. I really hope that you enjoy the series.

[@ryanbornaman7729]

Just a point, more to others, (and sorry if it's been mentioned) but the its (diagnosis narrative) been done more recently with the marvel universe

[@mrgauth]

Good video as always and very helpful to understand the Canon, but l have a side rant. Can we get a reprint of the hard backs! Please publishers! I gave up all hope of getting them. As someone who can't read the tiny font of the mass market books and wants physical copy, this is one of the most frustrating series of all time to acquire. I would plunk down hundreds today for a complete matching set of the series. Publishers, do you want my money on not?

[@billyalarie929]

where is the example of Erikson's response you were going to do a video of but then realized he already did it?

[@ACriticalDragon]

Erikson wrote a detailed response to Niflrog's video. The link is in the description.

[@billyalarie929]

@@ACriticalDragon OHHHH right, i did catch that, but then my brain just tossed that context aside, i guess!? apologies, i shall give that a gander!

[@robpaul7544]

So.. watching this at 5 am. was a mistake on two levels, well three. First, I'm not awake enough to grasp half of this wonderful analysis /wicked burn. 😂 Second, the bits I did grasp might well prevent me from falling asleep anytime soon. 🤔 And lastly the most obvious.. I should have been sleeping two hours ago anyway 😪

[@ACriticalDragon]

I am stumped... my students all used to fall asleep within minutes of me starting to talk about this stuff... I hope you got some rest.

[@robpaul7544]

@@ACriticalDragon 🤣 Ah but did you talk about Malazan, then? 😉 I would sign up for these classes any day

[@Plexsusmax]

Then what if Kaminsod's intention to honor the mortals were something added after his book was written?