Nasty 2-Card KO in Commander!

By switching creature text boxes, we can cause an opponent to lose the game at the beginning of their upkeep.
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[@Faelivri]

How to get banned from your EDH group.

[@jonw8697]

Bruh i keep coming back with a different deck and winning. :(

[@donaldopedro8148]

​@@jonw8697once I reached the top I started making silly decks like group hug and kitchen tribal.

[@dogehkiindogeborn5339]

7 mana 2 card combo that needs 3 different permanents on the board? lmao

[@spectate0074]

​@dogehkiindogeborn5339 lmao it's almost like people forget what a 2 card combo is. If u need 5 cards and 21 mana to pull it off. It's not a combo lmao.

[@dogehkiindogeborn5339]

@@spectate0074 Eh it's a combo just not a good one

[@lordspider3958]

We did it boys! We (kinda) broke unfinity!

[@r3cronus561]

The only single card to go above 0.05 in the whole set 😂

[@DangoHsu]

​@@r3cronus561 You've surely forgot about saw in half and the puppy planeswalk.

[@jeezuhskriste5759]

@@r3cronus561 there are at least 4 regular art, non-foil cards that cost more than a dollar

[@r3cronus561]

@@jeezuhskriste5759 it was a joke.. Bc the set was terrible.

[@jebustchrist4054]

there are like 2 or more cards with similar effects and costs.

[@backhandok]

Tonight on "How to turn friends into enemies" :

[@marginis]

Just what blue-black needed. They were kinda short on two card win combos. /s

[@nomoreowo]

Thoracle?

[@marginis]

@@nomoreowo /s means sarcasm.

[@nomoreowo]

@@marginis my b I didn’t see that

[@random.mp4164]

​@@marginis /s means /serious 😭

[@marginis]

@@random.mp4164 That's like saying "lol" means "lots of love" lol.

[@ReneTheRed]

or just give control of it to someone else when it’s on its last oil counter

[@muddhopkins]

The oil counters don't move with the text box. Only the text boxes switch.

[@dragonblood150]

​@@muddhopkins but if you give control of creature

[@jacket2848]

​@@muddhopkins harmless offering doesn't remove the counters though, I'm not sure what you're on about tbh

[@nunya3607]

@@jacket2848 You lose the game at the upkeep once you remove the counters then give it to them

[@NoFlu]

Wasn't there a card that removes all counters from creatures and artifacts. Its reaching a 3 card combo but should still be doable

[@vicflrs]

I’m not sure it would resolve like that, since they only exchange text boxes and not names. And the ruling is pretty specific. Please some one correct me if I’m wrong

[@wesleyvansteenburg9970]

Since you never got a reply, whenever a card references its own name in a text box, it's identical to saying "THIS CARD", not necessarily that named card. So, if the text is moved to another card, the name is replaced with the name of that creature.

[@vicflrs]

@@wesleyvansteenburg9970 Thanks, didn't know about that

[@ExplainyourselfEli]

@@vicflrs magic rule book is insanel long and well thought out, for what it is. many of the times i go "no way" it does way.

[@Supportivechaos]

could also play fractured identity and dress down orb. play archfiend and target it with fractured identity, flash in dress down in response then let the spell resolve. Each opponent gets a token copy of archfiend but due to dress down they enter with no oil counters. move to your end step, sacrificing dress down so the archfiends on your opponents boards get their abilities back. each opponent will lose the game in their upkeep. fun commander combo for and esper deck.

[@blakem5619]

Just normal Esper things

[@alevel2cpu285]

@@blakem5619 I always love combos that end with "Btw, you all lose soon, by the way."

[@gildedvibrations8927]

Play it in an Esper ETB bounce deck so you can bounce the enchantment, target the fiend again, and kill multiple opponents in one turn

[@BensonMTG]

This is clever, I knew there is a way of passing along Archie's "you lose" condition. BTW how do you set your thumbnail so perfectly for your shorts? YT forces the thumbnails for my shorts to a random section of my short.

[@TheDark1903]

It's an amazing card for a Jon deck.

[@WickedGoose]

Final section of short creation click on the image in the top left. And pick thumbnail. Hope this helps!

[@ryanbenjamine2592]

Well the only image in his short was the card, so that was his thumbnail

[@cultofnatethemagnificent5879]

You can also use harmless offering! It may take a couple turns but works much the same way

[@cultofnatethemagnificent5879]

OH WAIT. You pair this with solmenity and it enters with 0 oil counters then immediately play harmless offering. Not the best solution but it works

[@jaxsonbateman]

I mean, this is kind of just a Donate effect that requires your opponent to have a creature.

[@badoodis]

Yep. Option to have both to have a higher chance into drawing to the combo I guess

[@MerlinTheCommenter]

OR you get a card that allows your opponent to control one of your creatures. There’s a few solid ones out there.

[@jaxsonbateman]

@@MerlinTheCommenter Yeah, but the point is that it's just already existing combos, no matter how you look at it. There's basically 4x Donate, and 4x the red version of Donate (Generous Gifts or something), neither of which require anything more than you controlling the Dross.

[@concernedcitizen6428]

Very old cards also have this ability. It's also in blue, go figure

[@cardheon6091]

What do you mean by that

[@concernedcitizen6428]

@@cardheon6091 There are similar cards to what he mentioned in the video that will do the same thing. And blue is notorious for being the color to change text and other shenanigans. Hope that helps

[@HeraldOfOpera]

There have been two card combos that win the game on the spot forever. Painter's Servant and Grindstone is a classic for milling target player's entire library in one go.

[@gr1nder07]

Damn blinking exchange of words just lets you choose another creature and do it again lol

[@evernever9877]

There's also a black card that came out with this friedrichs Ian set that allows you to draw four cards and Target player gains control of Target creature

[@gaebril131]

Not sure about Friedrich Ian but Fateful Handoff from the Brother's War does something similar

[@0004332]

Use it with Jon Irenicus!

[@MrMeeseeksthe1st]

Thats what Ive been trying to build for a few days now, that and using Jon and the newer Zur to turn the Lich enchantments and 9 lives into creatures to give away and die to blockers.

[@CK-yy5pi]

So glad im not the only one who noticed this :p

[@johnstarinieri7360]

I use Archfiend in my Blim EDH deck, same basic principle

[@TheDark1903]

It would work amazing in Jon. Especially if you add in things like spark double, mirror image, glasspool mimic, etc. Just kill people by giving them creatures about to kill you. lol

[@L0ST31D0L0N]

So bounce/flicker Exchange of words to reset and target the next opponent

[@douglaswilson1570]

I may be wrong I don't know. But would that work, because the card specifically states archfiend in the text. But the card we give the text box to is not archfiend. It doesn't give it the same name. So I dont think that this combo works...

[@Arisorio]

Whenever a card has it's own cardname in its rules it refers to itself. That still works when its name changes and all other copy effects that keep the name of a creature.

[@fallendeus5641]

Need to learn the rules a bit. 201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. Another way to think of it is anytime a card says the creatures name in an ability, you can mentally replace it with "this object"

[@DUxMORTEM]

Thr issue is you kill 1 opponent and now your stuck with your own lose the game trigger again. Plus this is a 7 mana combo.

[@memeticproperties4517]

I believe the text box remains swapped, even if one of the creatures leaves the battlefield, as long as Exchange of Words remains.

[@DUxMORTEM]

@@memeticproperties4517 it does but its still a liability

[@fallendeus5641]

@@DUxMORTEM Yeah, but you don't have to keep removing oil counters during upkeep since it no longer has that ability. Even if you lose exchange of words, you still have all those oil counters on it and only have them taken off at upkeep. This is also in black, the easiest of the colors to sac or remove your own dross when you need to.

[@thoughtsofa20yearold52]

And then you get a commander that says when someone loses the game you win the game.

[@TheMadwomen]

Keep in mind, this is only activated at the beginning of that player's upkeep, so there's still some time to respond. Not much, but better than none. Sac outlets also help.

[@drakeling870]

I am now going to put that enchantment in every blue deck i have because why not

[@jakeduncan7068]

Hey it’s the interaction I called out when Archfiend of the dross dropped!

[@JoshLitch]

Saw in half breaks the game on it's own. Unfinity is banned in my playgroup for a reason.

[@cheezybastard8661]

Another card that demonstrates why ALL un-set cards should be silver-bordered.

[@xxskabxx]

Toonz. I recommend focusing on gear with higher offense. You’re pretty good at dodging and always stocked on healing potion. I know the difficulty of enemies will increase but so will the overall defensiveness of your gear over time. Higher offense will make you spend less time in combat before they even have a chance to deal that kind of damage to you if they’re lucky enough to land a hit.

[@nailahprincessofhokuto2024]

Harmless Offering also works. Especially with Vampire Hexmage

[@ianbruce3961]

Put it on a platinum angel for extra comedy

[@billvolk4236]

Also works with Mirrorweave, Cytoshape, and True Polymorph

[@Chidon0]

i thought you cant cast spells in untap phase?

[@fallendeus5641]

@@Chidon0 LOL what? who told you that? You very much can cast spells during the upkeep phase on anyone's turn. You have to cast either instants, or cards with flash but there is no restriction on casting spells during the upkeep.

[@bwahchannel9746]

Imagine if the rework of magic makes it where counters actually have to be removed for the effect to fully resolved, similar to the exchange rework.

[@jamesh3769]

A harmless offering at instant speed works too

[@BpopTTV]

Ummmmm… in response. Farewell😂

[@sharktomgaming4114]

Farewell is sorcery speed bruh

[@blainedahlman-oeth1853]

Endless whispers, and hexmage vampire if you’re mono black. Assuming you have a sac outlet like ashnod’s altar

[@MattHarb]

What happens to the text box you swapped once the opponent loses? Do you still keep the opponent’s text box?

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Erm ....I think so?? Because it doesn't belong to that creature....or does it?

[@Mtg_MoBrocks]

wouldn't it resolve once they lose? that's weird because technically you basically stole the text for that creature id say it stays. my question would be say there is 1 oil counter left, if you then exchange of words does the opponent start with 1 oil counter or do they reset.

[@mibbzx1493]

I believe it reverts back to the original text if its the same as if you exchanged control of a creature, when that player loses the game you gain control of all of your permanents and everything is exiled and leaves the stack.

[@Mtg_MoBrocks]

it would also make sense it reverts back since the creature would technically no longer exists because the player had lost

[@blakem5619]

@@Mtg_MoBrocks It either resets or enters with none. There would be no reason for it to copy the current number of counters on it

[@derekwork6749]

archfiend + Fractured Identity = Loose Friends

[@burningbelow4424]

I have both those cards too... Damn I've got an idea

[@mikebarndollar4046]

That’s dirty 😂😂😂😂 I like it

[@votfd2630]

I’m still getting the hang of these card text rulings, but can’t they just remove counters from your archfiend? The text says to remove counters from it, but doesn’t specify where from. Again I’m not so good with these things, but I was curious

[@AnxietyFilledRaccoon]

That's even nastier than Furnace Of Rath + Heartless Hidetsugu

[@mawhit1176]

You could use harmless offering to give archfiend to an opponent as well I do this same thing with demonic contract or midnight oil once the oil counters are gone to make my opponent have a 0 hand size

[@chriswampler1]

There is also a black card that exchanges control of a creature in standard right now.

[@thphlstr3221]

I have no idea what the combo is? My 'skip ads' programs skips me to the last 1.5 seconds of this.

[@gatherer818]

I use Solemnity (cast after the Archfiend) so the Fractured Identity just makes copies with no counters.

[@SyrinoxNight]

I was gonna say Fractured Identity your own and then Aether Snap

[@BS-gk2cb]

How does the text box interaction work when the player is knocked out? I know when a player loses the game all of their spells and permanents are also removed (I.e. if you control one of their creatures, it’s just removed from the game) but is the same true for text boxes?

[@theotherguy4456]

Uh unless i am missing something it would still be removing oil counters from archfiend of the dross since the card is specifically named it doesn't say this creature it names specifically archfiend of the dross

[@astawibowo6146]

But that doesn’t change the name of the swapped creature? So would you only play that enchantment when archfiend no longer has oil counters? And what happens after the opponent dies?

[@leoncaffrey2372]

This is off topic but once i saw archfiend i couldn't help but think of how the archfiend archetype in Yu-Gi-Oh likes to leak into other archetypes and now it seems to be leaking into other card games lol

[@diggerdog9205]

Nasty. I like

[@andresvillamilduenas2095]

There is a way to do it on mono black commander deck ?

[@jaydavidrn82]

you can remove counters with at least two different standard leagal cards and then play fateful handoff

[@jasonnichols6930]

The text box is specific that Archfiend of the Dross must have no counters on it. Since only the text box, and not the card name are swapped, this isn't an instant loss unless the Archfiend is out of counters.

[@cellula2302]

Whenever a card quotes its own name in the textbox what it actually means (by the rules of the game) is "this card" So the combo works: I know it is not intuitive, but because of how the rules work switching the textboxes actually changes the name in the box to the new card name

[@gatherer818]

I play my Archfiend, play Solemnity (only Planeswalkers can have counters put on them), then Fractured Identity the Archfiend. Mine is exiled, everyone else gets a copy with no counters on it.

[@ultraherman7727]

You could just use beamtown bullies as a jund commander with leveler, worldgorger dragon and this card

[@breakingblackmagic7617]

Unless someone counters exchange...then your dead in 4 turns...lol

[@MothFable]

that is my favoirte way to fuck over obliterator spammers.

[@shades541]

a simple 2 card way, in a stack of 99

[@jaydavidrn82]

does it work like that if it says archfiend of the dross? I'm not arguing just wondering.

[@MichaelMoore99]

Exchange of Words is too expensive at 1UU. It's a decent backup for Metamorphic Alteration, which is 1U.

[@Alamyst2011]

Unfinity has no business being played

[@NateBullock-ow6on]

Why does it have to be specifically for commander?

[@pokeliciousnchill2932]

Pretty neat, but a dick move in casual play

[@burningbelow4424]

Well since it says specifically archfiend of the dross, and the switched creatures text box isn't archfiend of the dross it won't have any effect. If the text in the box said, "from this creature" instead of specifically saying the creature's name then it shouldn't have any effect.

[@gavinvick3592]

What's weird is the text names the Archfiend specifically, and not "this creature" just seems kinda messy and sus to make this really work

[@sidewinder2716]

I feel like you'd need to clarify with a ref if the creature's name is included in that switch, otherwise the textbox's effect is either invalid or your Archfiend is still the target of the effect.

[@Cocytus127]

Rule 706.11 says: If an effect refers to a permanent by name, the effect still tracks that permanent even if it changes names or becomes a copy of something else.

[@whitelotusvtuber4353]

How can I make combo in which deck

[@BolasMinion]

Here's the thing about giving permanent A the abilities of permanent B: If permanent B has an ability that uses its name, for as long as it's on permanent A, it's treated as though it uses permanent B'A's name instead (see the rulings of Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God)

[@clothar23]

Except permanent B isn't entering the battlefield so in this case it wouldn't get the etb trigger of having oil counters placed on it. Since its not being played from the hand, graveyard, or exile. So I have no idea what you're going on about

[@WeebsUnite]

LOVE IT

[@GRiMxNova]

Could you blink the enchantment to do it all over again to another opponent?

[@SatanasExMachina]

Yes and bouncing it to replay works as well, but phasing wouldn't reset the ETB as it doesn't actually leave the battlefield.

[@ilanwallace2220]

what deck runs this I want to build this

[@tangent_mechanic]

Exchange of Words is the best card in Magic.

[@daneofarrell9460]

Brutal

[@christopherealy8025]

I don't know how exchange of words is legal in commander.

[@christopherealy8025]

*in anything*

[@VincentPascoe]

Why not just play the black sorcery that gives them one of your creatures?

[@clothar23]

Because that would take four turns...in a format where you're usually facing three other players. This combo only takes till your endstep assuming you targeted the next player in the rotation.

[@ZDBrown847]

Would this work? The text says "remove an oil counter from archfiend of the dross," not "from this character." Wouldn't you have to find a way to remove the counters from archfiend still?

[@memeticproperties4517]

When a card refers to itself by name, it really means "this card, that the effect is coming from". The card writes out it's name for easier readability.

[@fallendeus5641]

201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. learn the rules homie

[@rentonreel1778]

​@Fallen Deus I think there is still an issue because the effect still cannot remove an oil counter and will not cause them to lose the game

[@Behmtastic]

​@Renton Reel It doesn't have to remove an oil counter for the effect to take place. It just needs to be at 0 for the condition to take place.

[@zachyoung9938]

What happens when they're knocked out and the enchantment falls off? Does the text revert and you lose too?

[@clothar23]

Nope the official ruling on the enchantment states the loss of permanent b does not make permanent a revert. In this case you'd have Archfiend of the Dross essentially be a copy text wise of whatever permanent you switched its text with. Meaning it's only good for taking out one opponent. In a format that usually has multiple.

[@AxerionxX]

This should not work bc the Creature has a different Name and the Text still referes to archfiend so nothing changes

[@viridian8853]

Note how when you trigger/activate the ability of one copy of a card, for the most part it doesn't do the same to each copy of that card even though it says that name. When a card states it's name it is just referring to itself, basically just meaning "this card that you're looking at right now." This works how this short says it does.

[@Beavetowski]

@Viridian good to know. I'm pretty sure he would've done the research before putting it up online.

[@jacket2848]

Well it does work. Why is it people who don't know the rules who post so much shite 🤡

[@blakem5619]

This became a big problem when Ikoria was released, so there're a lot of people on the internet who have clarified how this works, including Wizards themselves. Names just refer to "this piece of cardboard"

[@RichardMitchell-nk9ec]

Yea but it still says archfiends oil counters

[@lilium7510]

I didn't know un cards were legal in commander

[@gatherer818]

Only specific ones from that set were considered legal for most Constructed formats.

[@matthewdelong3419]

Use switcheroo, basically does the same thing but forever. It's a sorcery

[@audacity9349]

Jon Irenicus works well with this too

[@mcolby7214]

That's disgusting 🫣

[@prew123]

It says "take oil counter of Archfiend of the Dross" So you would still take an oil counter of the named card (that is still on your board). ????

[@kelpsie]

The name of a card in its own textbox is not just text, it's a reference to the object it's attached to. In this case, the card effectively reads "remove an oil counter from Phyrexian Obliterator." Otherwise having multiple cards with the same name would create undesired behaviour.

[@timgil7830]

So when that player loses, does it revert? Do you pick a new creature?

[@cheezybastard8661]

Nope. The text swap is a permanent effect until Exchange of Words leaves the battlefield. THEN the text on the Archfiend of the Dross reverts back to normal. It's Un-set bullshit. Don't be surprised if your LGS or playgroup has banned that crap.

[@SatanasExMachina]

No. They switch as long as the enchantment is in play, not both creatures.

[@paulquinlan354]

This is gonna sound kinda weird but I don't think that it works that way. The wording is very specific and says that "If Archfiend of the Dross has no oil counters on it, you lose the game." You're not making the card that you exchange words with Archfiend of the Dross Archfiend of the Dross, you're just exchanging it's effects

[@CommanderVoid]

"2017-08-25: If an activated ability of a card in exile with a cage counter on it references the card it’s printed on by name, treat Mairsil’s instance of that ability as though it referenced Mairsil by name instead. For instance, if Mairsil exiles Magus of the Mind, the cost to activate the ability includes sacrificing Mairsil, not sacrificing Magus of the Mind."

[@paulquinlan354]

I did a bit more research and found out I was wrong

[@nicolasjose6157]

the name of the card is exchanged too? vecaus if it is not the meme do not work

[@pepperonization]

How to show unfinity players that unfinity should have remained silver bordered.

[@BaphometBibleStudy]

This is why the Un-sets SHOULD NOT be legal for general play

[@blasterdush4998]

just destroy that enchantment

[@jacket2848]

"dIeS tO rEmOvAl" Shittest, most brain-dead MTG argument there ever was.

[@blakem5619]

Yeah, it's a bit more fragile than a Donate

[@fallendeus5641]

@@blakem5619 Yeah, but donate wouldn't win at their upkeep unless you have a dross with only 1 counter on it before the donate. But then you run the risk of having someone else remove the counters on it before your upkeep.

[@Kamil12699]

its not goona trigger bc card will never be named as Archfiend

[@mikelogs7680]

Hahahahahahahaahahahahhaahhahaahahahahh i love it

[@somepunkrookie76]

Are the Un sets even allowed in Commander? I don't play Commander so I don't actually know.

[@roberthastings5969]

Give the enchantment flash and now you can kill them right as their turn begins instead of waiting a rotation

[@SexyMonsterLover]

No, by the time you can cast upkeep has already started.

[@roberthastings5969]

@@SexyMonsterLover No im saying casting it during an opponent's end step after you've given it flash

[@MichaelRaythemartaindingo]

Only text boxes are swapped not the card name and archfeinds text box specifies himself, therefore it wouldn’t work

[@TheAlguien]

Not how the rules work. Any time a card references itself by it's name, it simply means "this card".

[@ahill231987]

The only problem with that is it has archfiend of the dross in it's textbox... That shouldn't take any work if swapped with another creature

[@memeticproperties4517]

When a card refers to itself by name, it really means "this card". Cards write out their name for easier readability, though.

[@fallendeus5641]

201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. learn the rules homie

[@ahill231987]

Gotcha. My bad lol. That's a situation I would have had to have looked up if it happened during a match lol

[@fallendeus5641]

@@ahill231987 It's all good, cause now you don't! lol. Yeah i've had a friend tell me about a long while ago so I looked into it myself, there are so many specific rules to this game it's insane

[@ahill231987]

At least it's not Yu-Gi-Oh. Way too complex for me to keep playing

[@claytontalesfore7564]

Assault suit

[@OpticAssassin]

Why even show a picture of Phyrexian oblit at all? What is this bs

[@ssorvete89]

>unfinity into the trash it goes

[@miketokles9451]

Counterspell...