How the Post Office framed 900 innocent Brits and got away with it | Horizon Scandal

[@davidk7262]

My father in law was prosecuted. He never once even spoke to a police man or anyone from the CPS. He had to beg money from his dying mother to give to them to prevent him going to prison. He ended up with a conviction for theft. His business failed and he had to sell his home and business (the properties were attached) for about a 1/3 of its worth as he was so desperate for money to cover his cost. He never got another job as understandably nobody would employ a convicted thief. He lives on benefits and his wife's meagre pension. His conviction was overturned a number of years ago and he is STILL waiting for compensation. I honestly worry he will die before he gets it and never get to live comfortably again. It simply ruined his and his wife's life.

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

Sadly, you're wrong about noone employing convicted thieves. If your father-in-law had a wealthy background and better "connections", he'd be failed upwards indefinitely. Reputation means more to ordinary people because communities are built on trust and rely on competence. I'm so sad about what happened to your Father-in-law. We were part of a Charitable Trust that took on a community building during austerity. We considered lots of suggestions for different sorts of community hub. One included a Post Office, but there was no way we could have managed that with a group of volunteers. A lot of sub-Post Offices are combined with other businesses that are necessary to their communities. It's sad to think how many of those have been dragged down into this nightmare. I hope your Father-in-law gets his life back, soon.

[@ravenwulfe357]

I'm so sorry that happened to your father in law. It's infuriating how quickly they can take money and screw people's lives up, but how slow they have been to give it back.

[@marthas.4456]

It's just so sad. Your father in law is living in a poverty because the wrongful conviction, while the criminals ( the board of PO and Fujitsu) are millionaires.

[@AEKarys]

The Post Office are the lowest of the low. Paula Vennells and Angela van den Bogerd, along with all others at Post Office and Fujitsu who knew about the errors that Horizon caused, or those who prosecuted the innocent should ALL be ordered to pay back their bonuses, prosecuted themselves and jailed for their crimes because THIS IS A CRIME what happened to over 500 subpostmasters! Let's keep shouting about it because those who think are high in power all end up being found out. Look at the likes of Harvey Weinstein who walked around like a peacock and took advantage of people - he's now paying his dues. I hope Paula Vennella & Co are shaking in their boots and enjoying their freedom while it lasts!!!!

[@tomricketts7821]

I suspect that the post offices game is to delay and delay to maximise the number who die thereby reducing the amount that has to be paid out

[@phwbooth]

If the Horizon computer system was perfect, then we have to accept that 900 criminals decided to become sub-postmasters and rob the Post Office.

[@ac1646]

That's what I find baffling. I think their aim was to 'catch people out'. 🤔

[@AnthonyValentine-vm1yc]

The Bahamas population would of increased by 900+, taking up all their sun loungers. Sorry funny, but not funny.

[@annepoitrineau5650]

And it so happens most of these 900 had never stolen anything before, and they risked it while using an IT system, and we all know that IT systems cannot be bribed. They must have been so stupid!!

[@nt300uk]

I think that’s what they genuinely did think when then first errors happened - the Post Office thought that there must have been loads of subpostmasters on the take. When they realised it was a bug, they decided they couldn’t afford to admit their mistake

[@GuanoLad]

@@nt300uk Yes, you can see how they might have thought this was always secretively going on, and now their Horizon system meant they couldn't be so sneaky anymore. If that was their original line of thinking, I see some logic there. But it still should have been properly investigated, like any crime, instead of bullied and railroaded through by arrogance.

[@paulcannell5786]

It just occurred to me that many of the sub postmasters taken to court accused of theft and false accounting must have rung the horizon help desk to report missing money. Surely, the first rule of a criminal stealing money would be to keep it quiet and not to announce it. It would be like a bank robber leaving their business cards at the branch before taking off with the money. The fact that the victims were openly admitting they can't account for the money should have raised many of the missed alarm bells but instead get accused of theft.

[@dirkdisselpuff7938]

The Line of thinking in this Situation is that you the Robber know that the System is perfect and hence make a pupblic announcment that the System is not or you have No Clue what actually happened in order to deflect from you robbing an Institutionen that is beyond approach on any measure. It is a scam mechanic that works on the Shifting Fear Principle by claiming you are innocent while accusing a respected Institution hence a third culprit has to be at large. Be healthy.

[@kasiarehman6169]

How did it not get clocked by someone in either horizon or post office when suddenly 900 people had to be persecuted for missing such huge sums of money! Appalling!

[@michaeltoohey1385]

Did every judge who convicted the falsely accused fail to think of this?

[@insu_na]

The neat part is that the Post Office had the power to prosecute independently of the state. They had their own little law enforcement system going where they could do anything they want

[@michaeltoohey1385]

I wish I had thought of this.

[@Idk-ys7rt]

It is ridiculous that the Post Office victims still haven't all been properly compensated. Shameful.

[@chwilhogyn]

Alan Bates said, "I don't like to call it 'compensation'; it's a 'financial redress' as it was our money and livelihoods that were taken from us.'

[@Idk-ys7rt]

@@chwilhogyn Financial redress then.

[@markkelly9095]

As I do and survivor

[@zappababe8577]

One of them is a 91 year old lady! It's just evil for them to withhold money from her when she doesn't have long left on this Earth to use it.

[@notquiteoverthehill9576]

Not compensation they have been robbed by the PO & not even got their own money back

[@dieZera]

I'm a developer myself. The blind trust in computers shocks me everytime. Especially when I try to report (possible) bugs to any customer service to pass them on to the tech guys.

[@paulthomas8262]

I'm also a programmer, a big issue is also cause by non-technical manager, who are encouraging flawed ideas and pushing targets and deadline for things the don't fully understand. I work for myself but I have seen in companies I have worked with good people let go to keep useless manager in work. If you have lemon, they don't want a fundamental rethink they just want it done. If they don't care how it get done in software that is the worst case scenario.

[@dieZera]

@@paulthomas8262 yep, nothing new here sadly.

[@shapelessed]

When I worked as a junior dev at a certain company, I discovered 3 different 0-click RCEs and one remote shell on the server side, letting you take control of ALL the data. That was my first week.

[@dieZera]

@@shapelessed 🤐🤐

[@violetskies14]

When I was a kid I saw computers as kind of flawless. Machines could be perfect where humans couldn't. Then I realised computers and computer programs could only be as perfect as the creature that designed it and humans could never create something 100% infallible.

[@Yetaxa]

While only 900-odd were actually prosecuted, there were *thousands* (exact number unknown) that had these discrepancies and were able to continue without prosecution due to paying 'back' the money that was never lost. Some of them large amounts of money. I've even seena a few stories lately of victims like this who were unaware that it was a system error until this latest TV drama.

[@alisonshellum9870]

Yes, another 50 sub postmasters came forward the week after it aired.

[@markkelly9095]

It over 4k going through HSS and 492GLO SCHEME

[@stephenwabaxter]

Perhaps each former subpostmaster from 1999 onwards should be given £1000 as an apology.

[@hillaryclinton2415]

so .. money not stolen was reimbursed and kept by government as profit. money reporting OVER (yes, it happened) was kept by government as profit.

[@markkelly9095]

@hillaryclinton2415 you got and govt now want Fujtisu not to compensate us directly but give money to govt who will use it to offset their share compo bill contributions

[@nick7076]

It was my best friend who started the petition to get her stripped of the CBE.

[@zappababe8577]

Bravo to your friend!

[@DavidMorley]

Wonderful. It's the first step. She needs to go to prison though. She knew...and she did nothing..

[@samhunter1205]

As much as I sympathise with the motive, I actually think focusing on her CBE is a distraction, and stripping her of it would in no way constitute justice. I would much rather all pressure was focused on ensuring that appropriate criminal penalties are sort. It really feels like there is an elite class in the UK, a social level where, if you are a member, crimes go unpunished and any consequences are temporary and trivial. About time that changed.

[@1flinns]

@@samhunter1205 She was handed the CBE when this scandal was known. Its called doubling Down. Who put her forward for the CBE? Should be punished also.

[@samhunter1205]

@@1flinns I am aware of that, it doesn't change the fact that focusing on actual criminal offences like perverting the course of justice and perjury is more important than a CBE. As for the politicians who gave her the award - that would be Theresa May's government. They didn't commit any legal offences by doing so, so the only way to punish them is at the ballot box. Edit: originally I thought Vennels was enobled in Cameron's government but he had already fucked off after his Brexit debacle by then so that particular opprobrium properly belongs to the Maybot.

[@andrewrobinson1634]

One thing you didn't mention (and ITV missed as well) is that some defendants requested internal logs of the Horizon software - in these cases, the Post Office quietly dropped the charges.

[@skydroid3141]

Do you have a source for this?

[@ragnardanneskjold7259]

Yes, do you remember where this was reported?

[@carrier411]

Disgraceful

[@carrier411]

U speak a bit fast for some of us but apart from that this is good

[@sapinballwizard]

@skydroid3141 @ragnardanneskiold7259 look up the case of Julie Wolstenholme. She had a lawyer and the lawyer requested logs and said the issue could be with Horizon, and the post office dropped the case. But that only happened the first few times; then they started coming up with excuses not to provide them - it's not relevant, it's legally privileged, it would cost us too much to request from Fujitsu. And then in many cases the logs weren't accurate; there's an email chain between Gareth Jenkins and Helen Rose where she discovers that a reversal transaction that looked in the logs like the postmaster generated it was actually a system generated reversal, but the info that indicated that wasn't included on the logs provided by Fujitsu! Their conclusion was "someone should probably enter a change request to get that fixed" and then no one ever did.

[@kinjogirl]

It was reported mostly in Private Eye and ignored by most of the media. It’s such a shame that it took a drama for the rest of the media to care

[@dropview7013]

I first heard about this through Channel 4 News about 2 or 3yrs ago. What year Private Eye report on this?

[@hat9172]

I first read of it in 2015 or thereabouts. I also saw at least 2 BBC documentaries; Panorama or similar. I am mystified that it isn't until now that the story has become mainstream @@dropview7013

[@njebs.]

@dropview7013 Sept 2011 by Richard Brooks. Supposedly the first mention of the investigation was in 2009 in Computer Weekly by Rebecca Thompson

[@flamebasilisk2533]

It is true that the Private Eye reported before most, but I believe it was covered in the media, the issue was more the government ignoring and the PO being obstructive

[@theformerastronomer]

​@@dropview7013 2011 or 2012 - the first media reports were published in Computer Weekly in 2009 though

[@theatrelover9920]

This story makes me so angry, the ITV drama was brilliantly done, I can't stop thinking of the man who was blamed for losses that occurred during an armed robbery, I don't understand how humans can treat eachother like this

[@dieZera]

I didn't see the documentation, but shouldn't there be insurance to cover things like that?

[@markkelly9095]

​@dieZera post office don't have insurance , the insurance they have is SPMr contract that says all losses are down to SPMr with few exemptions. U think "armed robbery be one" but most of them like on drama to my they say u acted in way to increase risk. Aka in my case. Whilst shotgun was being fired at counter, and other smashing the counter door with sledgehammer. I by natural reaction, move my head back away from glass flying in from the smashed door, and away from shotgun being fired. We then left counter , went to back of house and call 999. Now u think that is reasonable. But Post Office held me liable for £46k loss cause I didn't lean forward and press the panic button. They said the sound of alarm and blue light would scared arm robbers and tell ppl outside an arm robbery was taking place. I am sure events happening in post office, would tell ppl at dentist as example it not a normal day. Took me a letter to my contract manager aka Angela Van.. "if you come to my office. Stand still and don't move an inch whilst I throw a brick at ur head, I will gladly pay £46k loss. It was than written off." 2nd one they caught the people who did robbery. Police ask if they want to do proceedings of crime on them, PO said no, and than tried off me through contract. Again I said you got person who did robbery, get funds from him!

[@RichardMcHale-i6m]

Easy. They preserved their own vastly overpaid positions and lifestyles. That's what was important to them. Not honesty, fairness or justice. Not other people's lives or wellbeing. Just their own snouts and trotters in the trough.

[@roberthindle5146]

​@@dieZeraThe private business insurance offered to sub postmasters usually only includes cover up to £5k on robbery. Larger amounts would be expected to be made up by the Post Office Ltd. but they didn't in that case because his safe was unlocked (the robbery happened as he was transferring cash to it).

[@doltBmB]

they're not human, see "the satanic seedline" by bertrand comparet

[@vrenak]

So judges ruled against 900 people with 0 evidence, based simply on the supposed infallability of the post, there needs to be consequences for these judges too,not a single one is fit to judge even a bake off.

[@berniethekiwidragon4382]

The Titanic was reputed to be unsinkable. We all know what happened to that ship. Humans really don't learn their lessons from history. Nothing is infallible.

[@springford9511]

I agree. Unfortunately no one is discussing this and I have the feeling that this aspect is not within the remit of the enquiry. Judges are probably fireproof.

[@donna25871]

Not judges but juries - it shows that the jury system isn’t perfect. The thing that disgusts me is that the Post Office has independence from the police and CPS when investigating and litigating cases.

[@samhunter1205]

The thing is, both judges and juries were shown false, misleading.and incomplete evidence. I am sure there were some opportunities for the judicial system to identify what was going on, but it is hard to blame individual judges when the Post Office were lying and withholding evidence.

[@NicholasJH96]

@@donna25871 people on jury should get first & final warnings. Judges,lawyers,CPS people involved jail time & to pay back every single penny they stole. Even if it means shutting down post office inc.

[@wesleylang172]

Its estimated that it's like 4000 out of the odd 10k postmasters. We are ignoring the people that buckled under the crazy gaslighting.

[@thepenguin9]

11:26 - shout out to Private Eye and its Editor Ian Hislop. Private Eye has been one of THE best investigative outlets in the UK, and Ian has a VERY sharp tongue and doesn't mince his words when talking about things like this

[@dcanmore]

also kudos to Computer Weekly that originally broke the story of Horizon system scandal in 2009 after a four-year investigation (zero cooperation from the PO and Fujitsu), with Private Eye picking up the story from there. Hislop has acknowledged CWs efforts and of course since then Private Eye has been immense in pushing the investigation over the years.

[@mittfh]

@@dcanmore In 2015, the BBC caught wind of the scandal (maybe someone in News & Current Affairs read the Eye?), and made a Panorama documentary about it. Pretty much every contributor was threatened with legal action by the Post Office, but the documentary aired anyway. The Post Office immediately issued a statement to the effect of the documentary was all lies, and no media outlets (other than the Eye) took any notice.

[@jocaz4931]

Absolutely freakin’ sickening! I read an article not long ago about a victim’s widow trying to clear his name. Thank you for amplifying the story and providing further info. I hope these horrible people are brought to justice.

[@dannieandrews]

This feels like a really brilliant quick introduction to the issue. It's absolutely horrifying what's been allowed to happen.

[@davidioanhedges]

A nice and clear and succinct summary of the scandal The Post Office senior management lied to the Sub-Postmasters, lied to the government, lied in court, lied to their own barristers, lied to their own independent inquiry, lied to the current inquiry, and lied to their own staff including the security teams tasked with investigating the sub-post masters ... The Senior management at Fujitsu are to blame as well, but at least they told the Post Office senior management, they agreed to tell nobody else

[@robsengahay5614]

And we know none of them will even be prosecuted let alone serve time in prison.

[@feha92]

@@robsengahay5614 Nah, usually a single one (generally someone who actually had little to nothing to do with the scandal itself, and only responsible through coming in late onto a sinking ship or some other weird way that normally would have ppl label them as unrelated) is singled out as the scapegoat and given all of the punishments to make everyone look away from the actual perpetrators and beneficiaries.

[@stephenwabaxter]

Put it another way Post Office is rotten to the core.

[@Vennnaya]

Lol at the lawyer saying "the post office cant possibly have software that rubbish". Believe me, as someone who has worked in a post office branch....it is. Its terrible. Their software, as far as im aware, on any given post office terminal for processing mail, large payments etc....Is still using windows 95 as a base. 30 years later.

[@dieZera]

like c++ with mfc?

[@continental_drift]

The version of windows doesn't matter when the software is rubbish to start with.

[@dieZera]

@@continental_drift yep being outdated is not automatically being faulted as such, security leaks are a problem of course. Big chunks of German insurers are still running on Cobol, but are still maintained...

[@camillagilmore1547]

You would think lawyers would be very used to the idea that software can be a buggy mess given that they have to deal with legal practice management software all day...

[@joinedupjon]

@@continental_drift it does imply that the bosses are cheap arsing things rather than managing them properly.

[@lsmith992]

Look at the bullying tactics by those investigators. They were appalling. "Sign this statement or you will go to jail".

[@Kameth]

She says that she has returned her CBE. Only, she hasn't. The return has to be accepted by the reigning monarch, and King Charles has yet to do so. Currently she still has it. It's an empty gesture. It's very on brand.

[@trickygoose2]

One of the things that has occurred to me is that some of these people were convicted of defrauding the Post Office of tens of thousands of pounds but I assume there was never any evidence of them having extra cash in the bank or spending lavishly. When you see newspaper reports of genuine fraud cases they often mention the houses, flash cars or exotic holidays the fraudster has bought.

[@jameswhite153]

apparently the investigators tried to find the money but couldn't. how that didn't set off alarm bells I'll never know.

[@springford9511]

No one wanted alarm bells. They wanted "recoveries", bonuses and criminals in prison. This goes all the way from the investigators, the prosecutors, (public in Scotland and N Ireland), the PO management, the prosecuting barristers, and the judges. The all found that the accusations were to be believed and the defences to be worthless. All the while denying the victims any access to the documentation that the PO had which proved their innocence.

[@JaneHasGame]

This is terrifying. Those poor people.

[@robinhillyard6187]

Absolutely brilliant, Evan! You summarized a 4-hour documentary in just a few minutes. What staggers me is that apparently not one person at the Post Office was in the least bit surprised by this sudden rash of "theft" from the Post Office--especially given that the accused sub-postmasters had, presumably, been honestly balancing the books for some period of time. The whole thing is absolutely disgusting and I would like to see everyone in a senior P.O. position during the years 1999-2015 spend some time in prison. It won't happen of course, but it's nice to dream!

[@emjayay]

Docudrama, actually.

[@robinhillyard6187]

@@emjayaythanks for making such an important distinction. Some of Evan’s subscribers might have been seriously confused otherwise.

[@jdnetwork-reselling]

The £75,000 is a starting offer, if they want more they have oto wait for the full outcome of the trials, i know a lot will happily take the £75,00 to be over and done with it but they deserve a lot more, My local postmaster plans to get the full amount (100k+) and he will retire when he does

[@katrinabryce]

If you have lost your pension and your house, you need a lot more than either of those numbers just to cover that.

[@markkelly9095]

As one of 555 GLO and in communicate with most, we no way think take £75k and move on, when most lost houses, health, savings etc. Also this £75k have deductions from what we had in Dec 2019, PIP, etc.. ie bugger all.

[@IesKorpershoek]

75000 is an insult. How do you compensate/reimburse suïcide, divorce, lost interest on paid-back money, and capitalization of lost pensions. The mental and physical suffering. 500.000 for each would be a start + personalized compensation.

[@MadTamB]

Some thoughts on this; One of the saddest stories is of the woman who was so depressed that she had to have Electro-compulsive Therapy, as such she can no longer remember her childhood. When I watched the TV series, there was the situation when the woman could press a few buttons and the discrepancy doubled. I wondered if this could be repeated, if it could what would happen if the discrepancy became bigger than the GDP of the UK,. All convictions should be nullified - not pardons (because you are still convicted and cannot do certain things like visit the US). All money paid back with interest. Then a lump sum for all of them. All people involved in the coverup should be investigated and tried and sent to prison for the maximum allowed. All bonuses and rewards should be removed the from the guilty.

[@eyeofthetiger6002]

It's funny how the faulty software always work in their favour. Apparently Fujitsu also supply softwares to a host of other government departments including the Inland Revenue....imagine if the errors work in your favour and instead of showing you owe the taxman money,they actually owe you thousands of pounds because their software showed that is the case,and if they fail to pay up then you can take them to court to recover that money! 😂

[@steveevans4299]

From what I'm seeing there were some bugs yes, but actually Fujitsu largely delivered a system that was specified by Post Office; and that system was WAY too complex for the average PM to operate - they didn't train the PMs properly - and when they got into trouble it was Post Office that didn't care, and didn't try and help them. They assumed guilt not innocence.

[@gizmo5601]

@@steveevans4299Alan Bates and many other intelligent and educated subpostmasters are more than capable running a business and using a fit for purpose system. The system had many bugs and errors on roll out. Fujitsu coded an awful system (see the US independent system review testimony at the Statutory Inquiry) with ongoing errors even up until today. The postmasters have no chance of finding errors because the system financial reporting is not fit for purpose. Eg double opening balance bug but the postmaster has no report to indentify the error. Even today sub postmasters have balancing errors that they are unable to find the cause because the financial reports are so poor.

[@BenjWarrant]

@@steveevans4299 Not really. The Horizon system was bug-ridden from the start. The problem was that there was a horribly inadequate system for dealing with bugs. There were tens of thousands of networked Horizon terminals on which some 6 million transactions a day were carried out. Ideally you would want to test a system like that, and it was tested, but that sort of testing doesn't naturally scale so a test on a dozen terminals with thousands of transactions doesn't reveal the sort of bugs that come to light when the whole thing is rolled out. I think part of the problem is the Post Office's historic attitude towards sub-postmasters, which is that 'if we're not careful they will rob us blind', so that the response to a Horizon report that a post office was £10,000 in the red was not, 'that's weird, this shortfall has been reported *by the sup-postmaster herself,* let's investigate, if it's a bug we need to report it to Fujitsu and get it fixed', it was 'Fucking crim SPMs, let's nail this bitch' (or words to that effect).

[@flippanties]

I work for one of those very contracts for Fujitsu. I can't technically say which due to contracts I have signed but I can at least talk about what it's like working on one of their government contracts. Our systems are not infallible. They break all the time. I worked on my contract's first line service desk for years and not a single week went by without at least one major service going down. I can't believe the Post Office just blindly believed the errors without double checking for something so serious. Not to diminish Fujitsu's role in it of course (trust me this company sucks, I should know) but goddamn Post Office, double check this shit first.

[@ftumschk]

@@flippanties I've been avidly following the investigation/inquiry via its KZbin channel, and was shocked/surprised to find that, in the early years at least, the Post Office's approach to user acceptance testing was pretty poor. They seem to have co-opted staff from Head Office with little or no prior experience of testing and given them grandiose titles like "Senior Joint Testing Manager", before being handed test-scripts that (if I remember correctly) were written by their _supplier!_ At the same time as Horizon was being built, I worked for a large public-sector organisation who already had a well-established, experienced testing team, with documented methods and processes. They really knew how to "break" a system, and often did... as a good testing team should!

[@KizetteandTotoro]

Add to that the Royal Mail being sold in 2015 by the Tories. The cut the cake between friends.

[@partariothe5th]

Royal Mail was sold, Post Office is still government owned.

[@KizetteandTotoro]

THat’s what I meant. MY bad. I have amended the mistake.@@partariothe5th

[@nebulastar3087]

Thank you for drawing people’s attention to this Evan, injustice will never be addressed if people are unaware it’s even happening.

[@abarratt8869]

The real problem is that the courts admitted dodgy evidence into hearings, with a heavy emphasis on it being unimpeachable. This is not the first time the British court system has done this. There was evidence from single experts (e.g. Roy Meadows) that resulted in women who had just lost a baby to cot death being jailed for their murder. There was a scandal over fingerprint evidence in Scotland. There's been inadequacies found in DNA evidence (thanks to a defendant being wealthy enough to commission their own more detailed forensic DNA analysis, which came up with a "close but definitely not him" answer), resulting in case reviews. For decades motorists with radar speed trap detectors were prosecuted under the Wireless and Telegraphy act (which is all about communications), before they finally accepted that radars are not communication links (and had to refund / quash fines and convictions going back a very long way). [I think there is still no law prohibiting their ownership and use in the UK, but don't quote me on that!]. The massive shortcoming in the reviews, inquiries, etc into the Post Office scandal is that they're not looking at why, yet again, the courts / judges have allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by expert evidence drawn from a very narrow base of expertise with near zero independent corroboration of that evidence. I know the reason why; the judiciary do not want such evidence contested in our adversarial system of justice. They want it treated as if there is one and only one interpretation of the technical evidence; they do not want juries to have to judge on matters that are probably beyond them. They refuse to allow such evidence to be contested in court, which is pretty disgusting as it prevents defence cases pointing out obvious flaws or shortcomings in the quality of such evidence, and the courts / judiciary aren't equipped to do so on a defendant's behalf. This is not how science works. Science (and, for that matter, engineering) is all about review, consensus building, etc. This is much more suited to a court of inquiry, such as how law operates pretty much all over Europe. Our courts / judiciary should be pretty ashamed at how they've allowed seemingly upwards of 700 cases to pass before them without one iota of curiosity as to why, suddenly, they're seeing so many post office fraud cases. The way we run court cases in this country is entirely unsuited to the modern era, and it's high time our judiciary got over their love of the adversarial system and designed a new court / case process that actually works.

[@CobraChicken101]

I hope more people put in a small effort to read your comment, as it is an understated part of the problem you're shedding light on. I'm not british but have followed the case for years as a friends father is, or rather was 😢, one of the victims. If it is any solace , our belgian judiciary system has got different, but equaly great issues to deal with. Quite a sad affair accross europe, and then we are still the lucky ones in this world. We must be able to do better, we deserve better.

[@katrinabryce]

Each individual magistrate would likely only see one, maybe two cases. There were at the time 320 magistrates courts in England and Wales.

[@MsPeabody1231]

​@@katrinabryceMagistrates are lay people and have to follow sentencing guidelines. So if they are told if x type of case comes in front of you, then you have to do y they do it.

[@BenjWarrant]

"The real problem is that the courts admitted dodgy evidence into hearings, with a heavy emphasis on it being unimpeachable." That's completely incorrect.

[@steve6375]

@@BenjWarrant The court could not accept any argument against the 'computer system' due to the change in PACE Section 69 (it was removed in 2000). So a 'reliable' computer system could no longer be challenged (before then, every defence case could argue that the computer made a mistake). So when Fuj/PO experts witnesses stood up in court and said it was in use in over 20,000 terminals and they didn't know of any s/w problems, the court had to accept that it was reliable (even if it was an outright lie).

[@AnthonyValentine-vm1yc]

The minus figures way surpass your weekly turnover. How could you be £20,000 short when you regularly only turnover £500? This Horizon system is adding so many zeros to each transaction. Want to buy a stamp sir? That should be £190, but no your sub postmaster will subsidise, 19p to you Sir. Thanks Evan for highlighting this outrage.

[@ftumschk]

I've been struck by the same thought. Did it not occur to PO management that the "missing" sums of money were often way too big for a provincial village post office?

[@erebusvonmori8050]

@@ftumschk The management knew. They were effectively farming the sub-postmasters for additional revenue.

[@dropview7013]

Fantastic job Evan. Very well explained. I’m really impressed how spot on you are even down to the uk vanacula we use in our contempt for the heads of this Post Office scandal.

[@AdrianColley]

*vernacular

[@DavidJohnson-yg8qm]

I have often used the phrase, this makes me sick to my stomach, like when Alpha Piper went down, as I was working in a similar industry at that time, and this incident makes me sick to my stomach. Not only that, I am so angry and I'm not even related to anyone but a local post office closed because of this scandal whilst I was working around the country and the locals were very vindictive. Now we know it was all based on lies. How do you think all those people feel now? ASHAMED BEYOND BELIEF THAT'S HOW!!!!

[@FullaEels]

i used to work in a shop with a sub post office and there would always be discrepancies. it was super stressful whenever i had to man the post office. you had to tally up all the cash in the system like 4 or 5 times a day and sometimes there would be a difference of several grand, and you'd just panic. I watched one of my coworkers get promoted to supervisor and within a couple months, be destroyed from the stress of dealing with the horizon system. even my manager at the time had this dour look whenever she dealt with it

[@SuperCrazyMark]

One of your best videos I've seen. The way you present information is brilliant!

[@evan]

Thanks you! 😊

[@cazyaz523]

That was a great summary Evan. Even as a lawyer myself I had not appreciated the extent of this horrendous debacle until I watched the ITV drama. I cried. I cried with anger that there was clear wholesale corruption in the Post Office, that government officials and politicians of all colours and stripes were made aware at various stages and did absolutely nothing (other than Lord Arbuthnot), that Second Sight were well onto the whole debacle but then faced threats themselves and that all those innocent subpostnasters and their families went through and continue to go through hell. I hope Reverend Paula Vennells (yes she’s also an Anglican vicar) hands back her dog collar as well as her CBE (there’s been nothing Christian about her behaviour) and that those who were complicit in this atrocity are prosecuted for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and lose all their belongings. Rant over…for now x

[@AnneDowson-vp8lg]

I agree with you about Paula Vennells. Why haven't the Church of England said anything about this, and why did she have this extra job anyway? Isn't being a vicar a full time occupation? When did she tend to her flock? She needs to be sacked from both jobs and sent to prison for her handling of the scandal. Maybe then she'll be humbled and repent.

[@am53n8]

This reminds me of the Dutch childcare benefits scandal: so many lives ruined, and 0 consequences. I hope these people will get some justice in the end

[@katherinelambert4662]

This reminds me of the Robodebt scandal in Australia. From 2016 till 2020 over 470,000 people on welfare are wrongfully issues debts to be repaid to the government. Took three years for the Australian government to apologise for all the harm and chaos they caused to innocent and vulnerable people/families. Pensioners, disabled people and people suffering with chronic mental illness were accused of fraud img the government and debt notices were issued to decreased peoples' families and people who were in palliative care while dying. Some people committed suicide and others became bankrupt. As of August 2023 only 197,000 debts have been forgiven.

[@nutherefurlong]

Good summary. Absolutely horrific situation. Their arrogance is astounding

[@Dan-is2qk]

An Evan edinger explanation on this whole postman thing is exactly what I needed

[@ditch3827]

Normally in a theft the thief ends up with the money and the victim has the shortfall, but here the money ended up with Post Office and none with any of the sub-postmasters. That should have been a clue that something was amiss.

[@fayesouthall6604]

Bingo

[@emjayay]

I don't understand how an auditing of each sub Post Office account wouldn't have revealed where things went wrong. Or why a Fujitsu employee would be messing with individual accounts or if it was really a software glitch. A lot to be found out.

[@ditch3827]

Further to my comment, I was interested to hear Sir Anthony Hooper's testimony last week where he said he repeatedly told Paula Vennells that the prosecutions did not make sense. Being a former Lord justice of the Appeal Court, you would think she might have taken note of his opinion.

[@tinaunderhill5412]

Very well explained. Thank you for covering this outrageous scandal. We need to keep this story at the forefront of everyone’s consciousness. If this slips down the list of top stories I truly believe the criminals in the Post Office will try to slither their way out of it, as they have been doing for the last twenty years. Fujitsu should pay out compensation and the criminals from the Post Office should be forced to pay back their obscenely large bonuses to contribute to the compensation. The tax payer SHOULD NOT have to pay the compensation. Well done Evan 😊

[@stevanblacklock2671]

I'm really enjoying that you're covering more stuff like this. Excellent video Evan. Keep up the good work ❤

[@velouris76]

As well as the ITV drama: I recommend everyone to read “The Great Post Office Scandal” by Nick Wallis. The book was written about 5 years ago, by an investigative journalist… It gives more information as to the colossal disaster of the Horizon software (quite how the software was even approved, let alone rolled out nationwide, is staggering)…plus it gives more details into the unspeakable nightmare these sub-postmasters had to go through…

[@cre8ivoutlet]

7:05 I saw an article today saying that horizon is still causing errors and the Post Office are STILL demanding payment of any shortfall.

[@ChrisM541]

The Post Office are not carrying out their own prosecutions (as was the case for this sickening scandal). “Post Office has not undertaken any private prosecutions related to Horizon since 2015 and has no intention of doing so. In cases of suspected criminal activity, evidence is referred to the relevant law enforcement agency.”

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

​@@ChrisM541 They should never have been given the power to bring their own prosecutions. It would be interesting to know how many organisations have this power and why? The BBC can do this for licence fees. There is a case this week in Wales that made me aware that Natural Resources Wales have the same power. Maybe the RSPCA does, too. The point is that people aren't getting equal access to the protection of the Law when unaccountable organisations can accuse anyone of a crime and seem to have lower standards of gathering and presenting evidence.

[@ChrisM541]

@@GlasPthalocyanine Correct. It's 'just' another thing to be abused, and boy did the Post Office abuse that power. I assume the cases still had to go to a court...in front of a(n independent) judge?

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

@@ChrisM541 I'm not sure how the judges regard the standard of evidence. If evidence is deliberately withheld, a decision can't be made when the Judge doesn't know it exists. The managers of the Post Offices wouldn't have been able to question the technology, or find an expert witness to question the technology, because Fujitsu were covering up. I'd guess the Judges could have compared the conduct of these cases with other cases of fraud and theft that would be brought by the CPS. There must have been a noticeable difference. The BBC don't bring each case of licence evasion individually. They have a block booking and the process is rubber stamped unless people choose to attend the court. Thankfully they aren't sending people to prison but there's no way they should have that amount of power.

[@stephenlee5929]

Yep, there needs to be prosecutions for this, I doubt there will be, but definitely needs to be.

[@ChrisM541]

100% agree.

[@rvarsigfusson6163]

IRA did have a simple method for a treason....... just saying.

[@jamjar20049]

Only 117 Crown Post Office branches left in the system! It was 1400 when I joined in the early 80s. The staff in the Crown were subject to the losses caused by Horizon too, some would have been sacked, subjected to disciplinary procedures, or put money in the till to hide them. In pursuit of profit the PO replaced most Crowns with franchised offices with reduced number of staff manning fewer positions. It actually says in their mission statement that this is their intention,so expect the 117 remaining Crown offices to diminish closer to zero. Bonuses all round for the fat cats no doubt. This was a well researched and presented video, thanks.

[@Fonzzx]

New drinking game: take a sip every time Evan says "The Post Office is the UK's most trusted brand"

[@carrier411]

New drinking game: take a sip every time a POer says in the inquiry “I don’t remember “ “I don’t recall “ “That isn’t my handwriting “ “I got sent the email but I didn’t read it/print it off “ Disgraceful

[@elzabethtatcher9570]

"Our software has no bugs" Any software engineer who says that is either lying or is incompetent. Bugs are expected in any software and a software company MUST be prepared to properly handle them (including delivering the fix to the customers). People who are responsble for selling and buying known untested software with state money should be in jail, as well as people who fined people for machine errors.

[@lesh4357]

The PO and Fujitsu KNEW their computer system was not fit for purpose from the start. 1:- They were told so from their own tests / trials. 2:- If you set up a boiler room full of people to log into postmasters systems and alter figures then you have admitted guilt. The Horizon system seems to have been built on QUICKSAND. The design could not have followed A.C.I.D. principles. These had been around for 15 - 20 years before they started development of Horizon. They are best practice and are used in banking etc. It means each transaction must be :- Atomic Consistent Isolated Durable This was even more important given that this was a distributed system. Without this, it was basically DOOMED from the start. They knew this but thought it was cheaper not to rewrite it.

[@CodingAbroad]

This is the best most concise summary of the situation I’ve come across. I even worked at Fujitsu Services in the same building the horizon staff were working in

[@sydnie6205]

Massive thank you for putting this all in one video. It’s a nasty case and display of our inept government. You summarised really very well though.

[@youspidertube]

Nice one Evan. I truly hope this scandal is getting full international attention. It's truly sickening!!

[@andersonomo597]

Aussie here - and yes, this will reverberate around the world, and I hate to say this, but the 'pandemic' and jab rollout make this look like a kid's picnic by comparison.

[@lsmith992]

One of the group was taken into a computer room at Fujitsu and was shown an operator changing figures LIVE from a sub post office. Which they were told repeatedly was impossible. But there it was happening. And his reward? When he got home, his post office figures were out by £44,000. The psychopaths in that computer office changed his figures out of vindictiveness. I think these evil people need throwing in jail for ever.

[@BenjWarrant]

That was in the TV series, that's true. But I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else, so I'm suspending judgment on this question until there's more evidence.

[@ftumschk]

@@BenjWarrant Same here, although I would observe that these errors happened in real-time, before the very eyes of the postmasters, as they interacted directly with the system. The odds against the "psychopath in the computer office" remotely connecting to that one outlet, at the precise time the postmaster was performing the transaction, would have been astronomical.

[@francescascanlan4549]

Absolutely fantastic video Evan. I watched the ITV drama and I was so sad about what happens that it made me cry. Those people should at least get back what they lost, but they should also get compensation for the distress caused. Fujitsu should also be prosecuted and fined heavily too, with no contracts renewed.

[@BenCG]

The extent people will go to cover up their own misdeeds at any cost is absolutely vomit-inducing. I went through a case with a former employer where I was discriminated against and they covered something up like crazy until they slipped up in their response to my appeal against the grievance outcome, but there was no real satisfaction or justice coming from that, they just very quickly paid me off without a word of apology, admission of liability or a care in the world. That experience really made me empathise with the sub-postmasters, but what I went through barely scratches the surface of their experiences. I almost feel like it's in the culture of the UK's class system, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn this sort of shit happens in other so-called "decent" countries.

[@GuanoLad]

It's a fantastic TV series, I was mesmerised and moved by what went on, and by the actors' performances. Thanks for the additional details, Evan!

[@jennywillow9850]

It's worth remembering it was a Tory MP, now Lord Arbuthnot, who was one of the key supporters of the sub postmasters and did his best to fight for justice. He features prominently in the TV drama. You also failed to mention that legislation is happening to quash the convictions of all the postmaster. Otherwise, great vid!

[@appleidinesh]

Thank you for shedding light to the rest of the world, feels like only the UK has been reporting this, but its a really big deal.

[@lsmith992]

These figures were occurring at small village post offices too. Many of them are very quiet and these figures are ridiculous. The takings wouldn't reach those sort of figures in a year for many of them.

[@kristymac3236]

I remember it happening and people actually taking their lives because of it. I knew they found out it was the computer that was at fault but didn’t realise those people still hadn’t had their money back or been compensated for wrongful convictions until the programme highlighted it. Thank goodness it has made everyone aware and thanks to you also for keeping it in the news

[@coasttocoast2011]

Absolutely f**king disgusting to hear, I work for my local council here in QLD 🇦🇺 and we started using a new finance software in 2017 which had heaps of glitches including 1 cashier making it look like we took an extra $700+ for the day and another glitch in which a customer’s receipt for payment on their rates vanished but the company who made the software worked with us to fix it instead of denying it

[@janeday9148]

There is now a vast distrust in the whole establishment from Goverment to the Honours System plus of course the Justice System

[@OnlineSchoolofEnglish]

Thanks for the vid, Evan. As an expat in the UK, it blows my mind that the subpostmasters aren't banding together for a massive US-style class-action lawsuit against the Post Office "leadership", Fujitsu, and anyone else involved in the scandal. Another area of concern is the existing corruption between Fujitsu and the UK Gvmt because they continue to be awarded contracts. This week, Andy Burman, the Mayor of Manchester, flew over to Japan to strike a deal with them!!!

[@markkelly9095]

As one of 555 GLO we did and cost us £46million but at time most of our money if not all ran out and PO who appeal first ruling, tried to get judge sacked said would do same on each of trials. This would increase costs which we didn't have (post office have unlimited funds due to it being own by govt) but more importantly didn't have time. Aka since Dec 2019 settlement out of 555 GLO, over 63 have now died!! So why settle for one so 750+ can get their convictions overturned, to improve conditions for current SPMr which NFSP aka post office (as high court ruled is Post Office in all but name) hasn't done. Like now got contract as relational one, now PO have to prove Shortfall was cause by SPMr. Not like before SPMr had to prove it wasn't them etc..

[@BenjWarrant]

"the subpostmasters aren't banding together for a massive US-style class-action lawsuit against the Post Office "leadership", Fujitsu, and anyone else involved in the scandal" Sigh. They are. That's how most of this is coming to light. The case is ongoing and at the most recent hearing the judge eviscerated almost everybody on the other side for dishonesty, failure to disclose documents, or to disclose them on time, criticised the lawyers. This goes on for hundreds of pages. (The judge was also pretty pissed off when the Post Office applied to have him recuse himself, on the basis that he had previously indicated that he had some sympathy for the SPMs' case.

[@steve6375]

@@markkelly9095 That's an interesting point. Presumably the PO must have had to ask the Gov for more money for all these expensive lawyers - so did they and presumably the Gov would have wanted to know what they wanted it it for and why?

[@markkelly9095]

@@steve6375 well govt had a person on board to oversee BEIS and now name DBT internet , aka they knew yes

[@emjayay]

@@BenjWarrant Thanks for the info.

[@Zanockthael]

A few weeks ago, I listened to a conversation on the radio of two people who have worked for PR Crisis Management firms. They said that one of the most worrying things is what these PR companies are going to learn from this. Not that "Do bad things equals huge public outcry", but "Do bad things and no one gives a shit or even hears about it at all unless there's a drama made about it, so just sweep things under the rug, because you'll probably get away with it."

[@Seal0626]

_Private Eye_ have been covering this for years. It's enraging.

[@lorrainelee597]

Back in the late 90s I worked at a sub-post office and my manager was fired for theft. We had had the horizon system installed part way through my working there. There were always balancing errors, usually a few pence or a couple of pound. But then suddenly it was £100 for the same clerk a few weeks in a row, then it was someone else for a few weeks. I don’t think we ever had the huge issues of tens of thousands, but still. Some of the stories are just so awful.

[@steveallen3434]

thank you for highlighting this subject

[@cw3357]

Even though I've been well acquainted with this dumpster fire of a situation, watching this filled me with the fire of a thousand suns all over again. So so gross. Amazing job as always Evan. My blood pressure doesn't thank you but I do.

[@Arksimon2k]

The ITV drama was amazing but also horrifying. I'm glad it brought this all to light, despite Private Eye and Panorama covering it extensivley already.

[@Mi-Ell]

This story is absolutlely bonkers from start to finish, but I just have to say I love the background lighting and composition with the open door and the reflected lights and aaaaaah, it's beautiful!! My eyes keep running around the room and finding little tidbits that make it come together so well.

[@evan]

Wow, thank you! I like to have the door ajar for the energy it brings that it’s just a room in my house and if someone’s over they can just walk in at any time

[@ac1646]

Respect. I didn't know this level of detail. 😊

[@dhw-g]

Thank you for this Evan. An accurate and succinct summary, with feeling. It’s a thing of nightmares. Thanks for shining a light

[@OriharaKaoru]

there must have been some serious crimes/insider stuff happening between the execs at the post office and the execs at fujitsu. otherwise, why on earth would the post office continue using them (extending their contract for £36m)? from fairly early on, they knew the software was a wide-spread problem. wouldn't any normal company go back to the software developer and be like "this is actually shit you need to fix it" ????

[@deewilliams3000]

Hi there, I work at a sub-post office branch. I do not condone any of the actions of the post office and feel awful for the people involved. I know how stressful it feels when your till cashes up in the minuses, let alone in the tens of thousands. However I just want to comment, if you go into a post office now as a customer, we are minimum wage workers and do not stand for the actions of the company. Please be kind! I understand the outrage whole heartedly. But I ask that you don’t view the people that need a job as the masterminds behind this. Thank you for the great video !

[@Steve14ps]

I will support my local sub post office and attached shop. I will not support Post Office Limited and as such I will not bank with the PO nor take out their life cover

[@SailorSteph]

I have to do Post Office work as part of my job at Co-Op and we are basically being paid minimum wage to do two different jobs and people just assume, we are getting paid extra to do Post Office work, we are not. I seriously hate doing Post Office work, I can honestly say the customers for Post Office are a different breed and are the most entitled, obnoxious and impatient, people, that you can ever come across. Not only that, some of the Royal Mail and Parcelforce workers are extremely rude to us as well, if all the parcels are not bagged up and ready for them.

[@Steve14ps]

@@SailorSteph I agree 100%, Post Office Limited get staff to do their work on the cheap and yes I have been in a queue in the post office and witnessed obnoxious customers in front of me. I always make a point of saying 'Thank You' to the staff.

[@AnneDowson-vp8lg]

It would not be right to blame the front line Post Office staff for this obnoxious scandal. But just because some customers are rude, don't blame all of us, everyone needs to use a Post Office sometimes. My local Post Office is also an off-licence.

[@slytheringingerwitch]

It's ridiculous the amount of trust we have these days in technology. What still amazed me was that the Post Office didn't question these trustworthy sub postmasters always suddenly stealing from the PO because their system was correct. It couldn't possibly be the Horizon system, it had to be the humans. I hope you managed to watch the drama Evan, it was brilliantly cast and thanks to that, we are all talking about it...

[@steveevans4299]

From what I'm seeing there were some bugs yes, but actually Fujitsu largely delivered a system that was specified by Post Office; and that system was WAY too complex for the average PM to operate - they didn't train the PMs properly - and when they got into trouble it was Post Office that didn't care, and didn't try and help them. They assumed guilt not innocence.

[@BenjWarrant]

Unfortunately, sub-postmasters have been stealing from the Post Office ever since the beginning. That's why the Post Office has its own prosecution function. The mindset was toxic, however, so that the PO couldn't see that the Horizon situation was something different.

[@slytheringingerwitch]

@@steveevans4299 The issue was that they knew it was rubbish, they tried to cover it up and made innocent people suffer because they couldn't hold their hands up and admit it. And they gave out bonuses and CBEs for this foolishness. I am FURIOUS.

[@wilmascholte7607]

I had heard vague things about this scandal, but hadn't had energy to look into it, so thanks for making an easy to digest video summary!

[@jonjohnson2844]

I'm not an emotional guy but I cried watching the drama

[@AsLovely]

Fantastic video , brilliantly researched. I have no words for the Post Office Scandal then truly horrific

[@dhar6015]

I watched the ITV drama, and i was left in tears. I was aware of the post office scandal and the problems with the IT problems over the last 10 years. But, it was only after watching the drama that it brought the reality and the impact to the sub-postmasters their family, friends, and the wider community. A terrible injustice caused by the successive governments, who at the end of the day is the only shareholder of the post office.

[@KayBacci]

An excellent explanation, Evan. Thank you. What a shameful scandal. 😢

[@jackyf3505]

You definitely need another video - there's still so much more blame to go around than meets the eye just yet. The subpostmasters own federation knowingly sacrificed their own members because they were more concerned about protecting the future security of the Post Office! Then there's the barristers & investigators who not only told the subpostmasters no-one else was having problems with Horizon, they broke the rules on disclosure of evidence in PACE to ensure they didn't have evidence to defend themselves. Charges of perjury are also being considered as regards statements & evidence in court. And while we're talking about Paula Kennels (now without her CBE), it's worth mentioning that she's also an ordained Church of England priest who only just missed out a few years ago from becoming the Bishop of London. 🤯 Utterly shameful behaviour by the utterly shameless.

[@garrygriggs1888]

Sorry but they did not break PACE. It was the post office bringing the prosecutions not the police. The Post Office has the power to do this, effectively running a parallel legal system to the normal criminal system. This means PACE does not apply. Likewise the post masters were not even allowed to have legal representation in these cases and we're forced to defend themselves.

[@BenjWarrant]

Barristers only tell the court what their clients tell them to say; if the client has lied, and the barrister doesn't have good reasons to suspect what he/she's been told, then they are not responsible for the lie.

[@tristandunn4628]

At the very minimum: - all bonuses earned by the Post Office need to be returned, ASAP - any post office employee actively involved in lying about the situation needs to be taken to court - every penny of overpayments paid by sub-postmasters needs to be returned immediately - as well as additional compensation for the hell they've been put through - Paula Vennels needs to be incarcerated for this Given how squeaky clean the BBC were believed to have been and the subsequent scandals there, have we not learned that no company or institution is above the law? Clearly not

[@yepidoodles]

It was a little jarring to see you so angry Evan, but well justified. I'm glad you made a video on this, I avoid news and normal media so I would have never known. Thank you

[@richt71]

Thank you Evan. This is one of the most serious and worrying miscarriages of justice in British history. How can you compensate those that unfortunately ended their lives because of the shame they felt after being charged or the people that lost homes, marriages and friends?

[@MeFreeBee]

Anyone interested in the technical details of the faults in Horizon, @Computerphile did a video on this. In short, Horizon is just a set of electronic ledgers doing standard double-entry bookkeeping, but one ledger was in the branch and one at Fujitsu HQ. Because Fujitsu couldn't implement distributed transactions correctly, network errors could result in an imbalance of the books. If they couldn't track down and fix the discrepancy they just loaded the burden onto the poor sub-postmaster.

[@ditch3827]

There were 29 known account affecting bugs at the time of the Bates v PO trial and these are well described in the judges ruling. The bug that cause Jo's shortfall to keep doubling was a simple coding error where a plus sign was used instead of a minus sign, so when she tried to reverse or rem out a transaction it doubled the shortfall rather than zeroising it.

[@LynxSnowCat]

Every time I've heard about this over the last couple of decades, I've continued to be startled by the extent to which they were incompetent. I've written an electronic-ledger/business-resource-management suite for 'fun' when I took a computer-engineering course to fill out a hole in my schedule. Transaction-data-integrity isn't job #1; it's the essential foundation to the accurate-functioning of every job (in this scope). I've wondered if ICL being -gutted- restructured as Fujitsu took control of it from its origins in an act of parliament (10% stake, R&D grant) created this problem by shedding the competent people, or cemented it by not divesting them of the incompetents.

[@ragnardanneskjold7259]

At some point Fujitsu will have to be prosecuted as well.

[@ditch3827]

@@ragnardanneskjold7259 Prosecuted for what? I certainly think that Gareth Jenkins the expert witness on whose false testimony so many convictions were based as a case to answer, but I'm not sure about Fujitsu as a company. Writing buggy software is not a crime; if it were then virtually every software company would be in trouble. GJ's evidence on 25-28 June will be interesting. Paula Vennell's testimony on 22-24th May will also be interesting. She is accused continuing to prosecute SPMs and telling parliament under oath that Horizon was robust when knowing full well that it was not, just to cover up the situation. From what we have heard so far, these two are the most likely to be prosecuted.

[@prism6]

Feel so bad for the employees. Glad they've at least had some vindication, however late

[@richardsmith3917]

Julian assange last trial is on the 20th-21st of February. If you had doubt about the British justice system the trial will prove beyond doubt that we don't have one.

[@ingaborlowski1536]

Yes Evan, please update in future videos. Amazing work you’re doing.

[@janebaker966]

I first read about this and the heart breaking stories of some sub-postmasters at least five years ago. Nothing was being done. I noticed that Sunak said the ones "convicted" would be compensated so I was concerned that the ones who had dealt with it but got into debt might get nothing but sounds like they will get something. Now,the other day I heard someone talking on the radio,I can't recall who,it was a man who understood about computing systems and their use in business etc. He did sound like he knew what he was talking about. He said that up to now,we Muggles (my word) we assume or rather are reaassured by the "experts" that computers don't generate than perpetuate random errors,after all theyre not human are they,people make mistakes, computers don't. Also up to now we have assumed,because it's what we are taught that a computer glitch is not IN the programme and if switching off then back on doesn't cure it the company via the helpline or an enquiry will. But this expert said the rather concerning fact that now we are all used to online stuff and kind of lulled into a false sense of security it's quite possible that companies,governments,the military (the USA military -industrial complex BOO HISS) might be putting glitches in ON PURPOSE. Last worrying for me is that (oh my God,LoL),my City Council where I live has JUST SIGNED a contract with Fujitsu to provide services!

[@markkelly9095]

I am one of 555 GLO , watching his video as I reply and also whilst I am just thinking how crao my life is... but that aside, not seen any comment (nor him yet) mention one important thing about the scandal and I thought u were going to say aka u heard me on radio. This scandal was caused for two reasons. 1st in 1999 the law was change that now states computer are robust and hence all computer evidence in law are absolute unless you can prove at time it was produce, system was not robust. Aka that means when there is a shortfall in your post office branch, unless when you go to court. You can explain how Shortfall came about *just saying it wasn't me, I didn't take it is not good enough. 2nd thing we need Hillsborough Law so have candor

[@michaelfraser1073]

The situation with bonuses is even worse than you think. Ian Hislop, editor of Private Eye (who didn't break this story but have been reporting on it for over a decade), said that the money for bonuses (and Fujitsu's profits) came from the money sub-postmasters were forced to pay into the system to account for the non-existent losses. If you lie to get people's money, that's fraud. People need to go to jail.

[@RBXTrains]

My headteacher had a knighthood despite being incredibly ableist towards the large quantity of disabled students the school had... seems a common thing with the British honours system to be a mess. He gave us all an assembly on how anxiety/depression were just made up and you need to get over it... lol

[@daanachmad4032]

His name?

[@oldneo4309]

WHAT???!

[@whatdoyousuppose]

This is the first I’ve heard of this and it is so upsetting, oh my goodness. Thank you for sharing this!

[@nocomply27]

I'm a software tester and there is no way I'd put my 100% trust in any software. It's absolutely insane that there was a trend and the Post Office just ignored them all

[@merrygoblin]

As a software engineer (not with the Horizon software, I might add!), I concur. Software of any real use almost always brings with it inherent internal complexity, and as a result _always_ has bugs - even if only minor ones, or ones in extreme edge cases (as much as we might try to avoid them or engineer them out). There's just so many paths through code that software can take based on different inputs and scenarios, that it's usually impossible to consider or test every possibility, especially with time pressures to get it developed, tested and out of the door. This was about more than just bad software, though. It's become quite clear from everything emerging that the Post Office _knew_ about the problems but _chose_ to cover the whole thing up rather than accept responsibility or fix it. _People_ did this, knowingly and systematically over a period of years, with people's lives ruined by it. I hope the people who took those decisions pay for what they did, but my guess is they won't.

[@Marco_Onyxheart]

As a developer, the worst thing is when you've finally squashed all the bugs. That's when you know every little thing in your software is about to break and you won't understand how it ever worked in the first place.

[@marieparker3822]

I followed this from ten years ago, courtesy of 'Private Eye'. Nick Wallis did a very good BBC Radio 4 series (21 episodes of a quarter of an hour each) - now on BBC Sounds, I think.

[@steveevans4299]

From what I'm seeing there were some bugs yes, but actually Fujitsu largely delivered a system that was specified by Post Office; and that system was WAY too complex for the average PM to operate - they didn't train the PMs properly - and when they got into trouble it was Post Office that didn't care, and didn't try and help them. They assumed guilt not innocence.

[@avryllsixtus3429]

Sorry dont believe a word of that.both Fujitsu and P.O. knew of the flaws with Horizon - they just ignored them. They are culpable and time has come for them to pay for their crime..and it was a crime...lives shattered and reputations besmirched.just shameful.

[@TheMissWin]

Excellent video Evan, you conveyed this scandal in a succinct but informative way.

[@kstricl]

If only the issues with the system had caused top executives to lose some of their pay instead. Just imagine how fast it would have been fixed.

[@raythomas4812]

You would think if that many people were getting it wrong...someone in Head office would day..." something is wrong here " but no.... I am disgusted by this story. I had to stop watching the drama as I was getting so annoyed .Those poor people, the post office ( and the Government ) should be ashamed of themselves ...Great Video Evan, I got annoyed all over again

[@germansnowman]

I don’t think you mentioned that the Post Office also has its own investigative force, so they circumvented the regular prosecution process.

[@1050cc]

👊 THANK YOU. THIS IS BEYOND SCREAMING, BEYOND ANGER ! There must be truth and recrimination !!!

[@Ybalrid]

One of the things I am not sure I understand. Are post offices in the UK *franchises*? How does that postmaster contract actually works?

[@Madad5677]

They are. Royal Mail (the postal delivery service) is a separate, privatised company. The Post Office is a government owned company but 99% of its branches are effectively franchises. With the franchisee having unlimited liability to the Post Office to correct financial errors...

[@zak3744]

Yeah, the big "main" post offices in the nearest big city will normally be a crown post office (i.e. not subcontracted). But the vast majority of the network, all the local ones in smaller towns and suburbs, the ones in villages normally run from a little corner shop and who are (or historically were before they started disappearing) genuine important community hubs, maybe the only one in the village and places where, for instance, pensioners could withdraw their pension, do their banking, pay bills, engage with a lot of formal state paperwork, all of those post offices are franchises run by subpostmasters and subpostmistresses, who tend to be community-minded folk with a sense of vocation and are the real lifeblood of the system. And of course are the very people who were knowingly and fraudulently shafted by the Post Office corporate types!

[@elisyadruid]

There are several types of Post Office branches all with varying contracts. I'll do my best to explain them here and the individual circumstances as they are in 2024. I’m sorry this is an essay, but it’s very complicated. I know so much of this because I worked in a branch and now I work directly for Post Office, just not in a role that involves branch accounting. So people of KZbin, don’t come for me please! Note POL is Post Office LTD for short. *Directly Managed Branches (DMB) - more commonly known as Crown branches.* • These are directly managed by POL. They have branch managers and staff employed by POL directly and any losses that occur in a DMB branch are absorbed by POL themselves. *Strategic Partner (SP)* • These branches can vary in size and are run by big companies such as WHSmith, Morrisons Daily, OneStop, Hendersons (just to name a few) in partnership with POL. Any losses occured in these SP branches are dealt by the big company who operate them. For the purpose of paying the branch per transaction they can be classed as Mains or Non-Mains (see below) The following branch types are responsible for maintaining correct accounting and are to personally cover any losses. They do have an option to Review & Dispute any discrepancy with the POL helpline; called the Branch Support Centre (BSC) and a dedicated team will investigate any discrepancies on a case by case basis, per branch. If it is found that there is a shortfall, that has been discovered to be an incorrect transaction or incorrect accounting then then the branch would need to stand to the loss. If the discrepancy cannot be explained then the branch may qualify for a goodwill payment from POL to cover the amount of the loss, again on a case by case basis. *Mains Branches* • These are typically larger branches that carry out over 1000 customer sessions (transactions) per week at the very least. They are primarily owned by individuals, or small business owners/limited companies that individuals have set up. These postmasters are paid per transaction - typically on a higher rate than Locals & Local Plus & Sub-Community branches. *Local Branches (Non-Mains)* • These can be found in your local community shop or convenience store and typically have a single counter attached to the retail counter. Note that these are slightly different to SP branches by way of their contract. They are solely responsible for the branch and are individually owned (not owned/operated by a Strategic Partner). *Local Plus Branches (Non-Mains)* • These branches are typically what most people think a Post Office is. A community hub, typically with 2 to 3 counters offering a broad selection of services and products. Typically owned by individuals and after the huge network transformation scheme (that’s a whole other kettle of fish), are paid a lower rate per transaction than Mains branches, which is another injustice in itself - but I digress. *Sub-Community Branches* • These are either in villages who operate as an outreach service via a POL van or in community halls, even in peoples houses! There are some Postmasters still on this contract in bigger branches but they are either fighting closure or better pay or resisting the Network Transformation scheme. They receive a government subsidy for operating a Post Office and are paid per transaction. There are nuances to each of these branch types and the individual contracts, but this is honestly just a high level overview of what happens behind the scenes.

[@julius9055]

The 'post office is a trustworthy brand' reminds me of 'Brutus is an honourable man' from the 'Friends, Romans, Countrymen' speech in Julius Caesar