Absolutely, remember max, who I love by the way, was saying that Dirk was better than Larry, C'mon now!
@606Knott Жыл бұрын
I doubt Larry gives a crap about what max thinks, and Larry be putting coop in the hall of fame
@duskopopov77 Жыл бұрын
@@606Knott Has coop been selected?... he's deserves to b in!
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
@@606Knott Got that right
@pokerpat6470Ай бұрын
They're all great, glad you mentioned Russell. Larry turned a dismal Boston team into a 3 time NBA Champion. He shot like Curry, passed like Magic, rebounded like Kareem and stole like Stockton. The most clutch player in NBA history. He played in the era of the Superstars and he beat em' all. 3 consecutive MVPs, All-Star MVP, Athlete OTY & King of the 40/50/90 club. LEGEND!!!! 🏀
@NickPearce-v2w15 күн бұрын
@pokerpat6470 Also Larry is the greatest loose ball hustler of all time.
@peteherrera1502 Жыл бұрын
Nobody has made more of an impact like Larry bird did in the 13 years he played and Larry Bird is the GOAT. Not MJ and not Kareem And the following is true about Larry Bird. Larry birds timeframe played 13 seasons in the NBA and what is impressive Larry missed nearly an entire season for bone spurs in his heels and played just 105 games in his last two campaigns due to his bad back. Those last two NBA seasons, 1990-91 and 91-92, were painful to watch, as Bird had to lie on the floor at times to ease the tension on his aching back. Years later, doctors explained the lengths they had to go to just to get Larry Legend on the court, and after hearing that, you won’t believe just how painful the whole situation was for him. Larry Bird infamously hurt his back doing something perfectly on-brand for the humble Celtics superstar, building a driveway for his mother by himself in 1985. And while the back injury affected him for the last seven seasons of his career, it truly became a problem starting in 1988. By the 1990s, Bird “had lost the structural stability of his spine,” according to his orthopedic therapist, Dan Dyrek. “It would slip into abnormal positions to try and lock itself to get an artificial stability.” The pain for the Celtics star was intense. Dyrek compares his spinal issues to “getting your finger stuck in a door, and somebody’s still pushing on the door.” Despite the pain, Bird did whatever he could to play, even while wondering whether he was doing long-term damage that would affect his quality of life in retirement. But he did it because, as he learned from his father years before, “If you get paid to go to work, you gotta go to work.” So, during the last two years of Bird’s career, Dyrek and his counterparts would go to extreme measures to get Bird on the court. “What we had to do was unlock his spine, realign it, [and] do techniques that would hold that for four hours, six hours, that type of thing, and then he’d go play basketball,” Dyrek explained. And while Larry Bird now admits he “probably should have retired in ’88, ’89,” he says the competition and hopes of one more NBA Finals showdown with Magic Johnson kept him going. www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-doctors-unlock-spine-before-games-end-career/ and Larry Bird injured his shooting hand in a bar fight during the 1985 Eastern Conference Finals www.sportscasting.com/larry-bird-involvement-bar-fight-cost-celtics-1985-nba-finals/ which shows how much heart, love and dedication Larry had for the game. And There will never ever be a player like Larry Bird again. What an insult to Larry bird, His legacy, His accomplishments and the pain he endured and still did all that he did. How a person handles Adversity and other intangibles are part of what makes greatness. And watch these two video's kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJbKhXR-frx5bZI kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYmxfaeOirmFj7s kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5bThnx8aJ16i5o kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYmxfaeOirmFj7s kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqfOkoSIbbh7otU
@arautus Жыл бұрын
Maxwell should be grateful to Larry Bird. He never would have won world titles without him.
@Sunny-jz3dy Жыл бұрын
@@arautus Facts!
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for citing your research.
@paul-u2y9y9 ай бұрын
I've had 3 back surgeries and i know what the doctors are talking about, when my back goes out it takes me a day , sometimes 2 to get it back right , i can self manipulate it .
@steveng8727Ай бұрын
Question for ya? Better shooter Larry or MJ? Better rebounder Larry or MJ? Better passer Larry or MJ? Sheeeet Larry da GOAT !
@peterhuston99719 ай бұрын
Bird was better all around than anyone. Max opinion doesn't count.Listen to the bad mouthing a guy that had more steals, rebounds and blocks than either of them as if he couldn't play D. I've had enough of Maxwell and his racism.
@Pktattooss Жыл бұрын
Neither one picked an actual leader. I’m surprised. Bird is the only choice. Made everyone better. Lead by example. And the best all around player ever.
@NBAHistoryCLNS Жыл бұрын
Cmon. Bird and Magic cancel each other out.
@kb5509 Жыл бұрын
Kareem was a leader. He's the captain.
@reodagreo7637 Жыл бұрын
Soooo, you didn’t hear Bill Russell’s name
@cgraf69 Жыл бұрын
You got that right. All are great players but none had a handicap like Maxwell on their team. Celtics with Maxwell were bottom dwellers. Then Bird arrives and they're the best team in basketball. Maxwell blew up the team in 83 trying to get rid of Fitch, then pouts around from the pine in 85 championship. Celts get rid of Maxwell in 86 and put together the best NBA team ever. Bird, Walton and McHale and Parish destroyed Hakeem and Ralph, Bird even beat the Dreamer in a jump ball! 1 Bird 2 Russell 3 healthy Walton 4 Magic 5 Kareem. All top 10 players except Walton. But for two years Walton achieved heights never before seen in the NBA
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
@@NBAHistoryCLNS I'm from Boston, watched Bird's whole career and from day 1 Maxwell had a chip on his shoulder towards Bird because he was envious that a white basketball player was garnering so much attention, it actually bothered him, first day of practice Bird comes walking into the gym and Max slowly starts to clap and loudly saying, here he comes, the great white hope, Bird said it didn't bother him, he said he actually liked it because it motivated him. When he went against Max in that first practice, Bird lit him up. As time went by and Bird was getting all the accolades it didn't sit well with cornbread and when Max hurt his knee after having signed a contract with the Celtics it appeared that Max was dogging it during his rehab which caught the attention of Red and also Bird who had spoke out about it, make a long story short, Max was traded to the LA Clippers for Walton. Max always has said that Bird played a part in getting him traded when in fact it was Max himself that made it happen because he was dragging it during his rehab, he also at times didn't play to his capabilities, it was obvious watching him as I did many times watch the Celtics live at the old Boston Garden, not saying that Max didn't go all out during the games I saw, he did most of the time play to his capabilities but a few games you could tell he wasn't going full tilt, I always liked cornbread but it's so obvious in interviews that I saw him in after he was traded and over the year's he was bitter towards the Celtics and Bird, while it has simmered down you can still tell he has that chip on his shoulder towards the greatest white player to ever play in the NBA , and people who had followed the Celtics during the Bird/Maxwell era can see that, get over it cornbread for God's sakes, life's too short
@low303proz Жыл бұрын
They got to get Larry Bird on the show it’ll be a great show
@ervsavord4985 Жыл бұрын
Larry Lemon really!!! My estimation of you two has diminished. The comments from our side are carefully chosen. Yours it seems are orchestrated by the powers that be. Cedric were you not the high scorer on a very bad Celtic team that became contenders by the addition of ONLY Larry the next year.I guess lemonade is better than whatever you had contributed.
@db3467 Жыл бұрын
Bread has too much pride to say Bird
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
Not pride, doesn't want to give in to the white player
@antenanashi27 күн бұрын
maybe because there's other players ? Dare I say, better players ?
@bryanfox672627 күн бұрын
@@antenanashi None better than Bird ... Maybe Elgin Baylor? He was before my time so I can't say for sure?
@chuckkirby270827 күн бұрын
Bob Ryan will tell you that Larry Bird could control the game without taking a shot.
@MP-tf7cc Жыл бұрын
At his best, Walton controlled the game at both ends more than anyone. But Russell is the answer and the goat.
@peterhuston99719 ай бұрын
Bob Ryan considers the 76-77 Walton the best center play in history.
@toddfrank3344Ай бұрын
Maxwell (who did NOT deserve to be finals MVP in '81) would NEVER pick Larry Bird.
@JAMESGANG-f5u27 күн бұрын
Maxwell as a player is long forgotten. Very forgettable. He fell on the ground every time he had the ball. Untouched yet he’d fall down. That was his MO
@newellphelps24817 ай бұрын
Larry Legend all day
@doldi5400 Жыл бұрын
I pick Larry. :)
@mikewubben2844 Жыл бұрын
Bird made 3 All Defensive second teams. Magic never made an all defensive team. Both great players. I think the Lakers referred to Bird as Larry Lemon as a spoof of the Larry Legend moniker and not because of Larry's defense.
@cgraf69 Жыл бұрын
Very good points! How many times would you see Bird break up 2 or 3 on one breaks? Once I remember him putting Kareem's 'unblockable' skyhook back in his face
@jimmyboy13111 ай бұрын
It's because of Larry's relatively poor defense, especially compared to someone like Cooper or Olajuwon. Notice Cooper said Larry was good at covering passing lanes, or something similar to that. And he was good off ball but as an on ball defender he wasn't in their league, so to speak, at least not after he injured his back.
@ChrisDoyle2112Ай бұрын
Larry Lemon? I think he meant to say LEGEND. Coop has rings and put 31 on Bird ONCE, yet he’s trying to put his big headed self in the echelon of greatness that is Magic, Bird and Jordan…DUDE PLEEEEEEZ!!!
@bricefleckenstein9666 Жыл бұрын
Kareem legitimately should be #3 at the highest on the blocked shots list for his career, possibly #4. He lost his first 4 seasons to "it was not yet counted", which would put him ahead of Hakeem narrowly. But Wilt and Bill Russell blocked more shots ROUTINELY than the "official" highest season ever (Mark Eaton at about 5) for most of their careers, and Nate Thurmond ALSO lost most of his career to the "not yet counted" issue while Bill and Wilt lost ALL of theirs.
@toddfrank3344Ай бұрын
Refs from back then estimate Russell averaged 6 a game for his CAREER.
@bricefleckenstein9666Ай бұрын
@@toddfrank3344 The same retired NBA statistician that came up with 8.8 per game for Wilt based on all "full game available" film used the same methodology on Bill - and came up with 8.2 For perspective, those numbers would put Bill over 10k for his career, and Wilt more like 11k.
@toddfrank3344Ай бұрын
@@bricefleckenstein9666 And Russell didn't try to block everything..he was deliberately selective. He wanted maximum intimidation when he did do it.
@bricefleckenstein9666Ай бұрын
@@toddfrank3344 More that he went for the blocks he was pretty sure he COULD control when he blocked them - though the selective intimidation was also a factor.
@toddfrank3344Ай бұрын
@@bricefleckenstein9666 It was a total factor. Blocked shots were a weapon Russell kept in reserve. For one example, he knew he could block 8 out of 10 of Philadelphia center Neil Johnston's shots because they had such a low trajectory. But if he did that, he knew Johnston would change his shot, which is the last thing Russell wanted him to do.
@paul-u2y9y9 ай бұрын
if we were playing a pickup game i'd give you 1st pick, you take mike , i'd take magic, you'd take lebron , i'd take larry, you'd take ... wait !, i got larry AND magic ? , GAME OVER !
@pokerpat6470Ай бұрын
LOL Absolutely!!!!
@soramirez547324 күн бұрын
@@pokerpat6470 bird is my first pick
@tobingallawa3322 Жыл бұрын
Cornbread is wrong. Wilt was quicker and stronger than Hakeem. He could give you 30 and 30 and 15 blocks. He was the first to control both ends of the floor.
@MerkinMufflyАй бұрын
Hakeem played in the modern NBA, Wilt was going against mostly guys that'd never make a team today.
@tobingallawa3322Ай бұрын
@MerkinMuffly really? Bill Russell, Bob Petit, Nate Thurmond, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Wes Unseld are guys who could not play in todays NBA, that is what you really think?
@leealtman28 күн бұрын
@@tobingallawa3322 exactly!! The naysayers always claim Wilt played against electricians and plumbers, which is disrespecting Bill Russell, Pete Maravich etc who could easily run around current players.
@mattveteska855924 күн бұрын
Dont forget Bob Petit
@tobingallawa332224 күн бұрын
@@mattveteska8559 Petit was a badass, was he a forward or center? I guess it does not matter, he was a beast
@jameschan96343 күн бұрын
A center needs others around him, whereas a floor general runs the team. I start my team with Magic, who made everyone around him better, happy, and he brings camaraderie and a happy winning atmosphere.
@robertdiehl12816 күн бұрын
Bird…because with or without the ball bird affected the outcome of the game.
@steveharmon735 Жыл бұрын
I respected Bird as much as I did Magic and Michael. I began watching basketball in the early 60s and saw all the stars. I still have MJ as the goat followed ever so closely by Kobe, Magic, Bird, Jabar, Olajuon, West, Pistol Pete and so many others.
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
Nice comment. Where do you rank Wilt, Baylor, and Dr. J.
@paul-u2y9y9 ай бұрын
MIKES the most spectacular, but if i had first pick i'd take magic. followed by bird, then i'd get some defense and fuggedaboutit!
@peterhuston99719 ай бұрын
Kobe? Maybe part II.
@WilliamChristian-lx2pbАй бұрын
Wilt. Oscar. Dr J. West. Elgin.
@jimmyjam5146 Жыл бұрын
Who writes these subtitles? “Kim Olashawan” ?!? Lol, Goddamn. And then “Elijah 1” - OMG. Killing me.
@jimmyboy13111 ай бұрын
They're auto generated.
@thesentinelsfootballchanne321212 күн бұрын
For me it's either Magic or Bird and as much as I love Bird, Magic's consistency of winning in high school and college championships would make me confident that he'd make a great player to form a team around.
@CAM-by9geАй бұрын
I used to say it seems like bird just lets people score, because he knows he only needs one more point than you, and he knew he would get that. He never seemed stressed, and would just let you have the bucket.
@DonniePate-d7p Жыл бұрын
Bird destroyed Hakeem!!Remember 86 Finals!Maxwell still struggling with the fact the Bird was way better than him!
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
From day one. On Birds very first day of practice as he's walking into the gym, Max starts to slowly clap and loudly saying here he comes, the great white hope, the savior (racist are we Max?) Bird said it didn't bother him at all, he said he liked it because it motivated him to go hard at Max which he did during that practice raining jump shot after jump shot in cornbreads face from various points on the court
@MerkinMufflyАй бұрын
Weird, because when Kareem played he said Bird was the best player. Bird won NCAA player of the year, not Magic. Bird won rookie of the year, not Magic, Bird made all nba first team his rookie year, Magic didn't make all nba first team until 1983. It was a travesty but still something that happened. Bird also didn't have the luxury as a rookie to play with the reigning MVP and top 5 ever player Kareem. McHale was great, but he wasn't close to Kareem. When people make top 25 lists today you'd see very few putting McHale on that list.
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
I always said Magic couldn't play defense. This part of why I have Stockton ranked slighty above him. #HotTake
@NBAHistoryCLNS Жыл бұрын
😳
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
@@NBAHistoryCLNS Lol. Maybe you guys can discuss this one day. After all, Stock was the better on ball defender, 6x All NBA Defense, and still remains the All time leader in assists & steals 20 years after his retirement.
@IAAP. Жыл бұрын
@@melvinhhcp3615with zero championships
@reodagreo7637 Жыл бұрын
@@melvinhhcp3615But he played way longer than Magic. Magic has the apg title for all time tho… Magic was a better scorer and rebounder, a bigger matchup problem and a better vocal leader. Plus he got 5 rings and 9 finals appearances in 12 tries.
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
@@IAAP. He ran into Jordan. However, the Jazz are the only team that playex the Bulls twice in The Finals. This is not to mention, Magic was playing on a team with 3 #1 overall picks, plus a DPOY. So...
@southwest1988 Жыл бұрын
Michael Cooper supporting the Celtics now it look like but he definitely has a point as to why you have to start with Kareem !!!! The nba top 3 players of all time is Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem !!!!
@markchaplin119 Жыл бұрын
I so hope Coop gets in to the Hall of Fame...5 titles...defensive player of the year...Bird said he was the toughest defender he ever faced...vte him in.How do you spell vote again?
@davep8221 Жыл бұрын
Meh. Some vowels are ovrrted. ;-)
@leealtman28 күн бұрын
fully agree - great rival and also person.
@johnsherman4035 Жыл бұрын
Im not surprised that Maxwell would give a douchebag answer.
@richardpare353824 күн бұрын
The games between those 2 teams back then were the best ever. Today's teams are pale shadows of the 80's teams.
@DonniePate-d7p16 күн бұрын
Max don’t know what he is talking Hakeem ain’t better than Bird.
@davidclark854323 күн бұрын
Maxwell has given much kudos to Larry Bird over the years AND on podcasts. He wishes they'd reunite as brothers. And admittedly he's said he was racist in late 70s for not thinking any white man could be a better basketball player than a black man. And Bird put that one to bed quick during one on one with Bread. And Cedric turned around his entire feelings
@charlesknight2654 Жыл бұрын
I am so disappointed in these folks because Bill Russell is the champion of all champions in any sport! Who has the most rings? Need I say anything else?
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
All of Russell's teams were loaded.
@sugarnads11 ай бұрын
He aint Don Bradman.
@springfieldbearpatrol293715 күн бұрын
Interesting to hear Cornbread criticize Magic's defense, yet admit Magic is his pick to run an offense...
@lynnetling456621 күн бұрын
This is BS sour grapes. Larry ate them all for lunch.
@bryanfox672627 күн бұрын
My GOAT TEAM: Jerry West @ 1, Elgin Baylor @ 2, Larry Bird @ 3, Hakeem Olajuwon @ 4, Wilt Chamberlain @ 5 ... What team can beat this one in a 7 game series?
@richkunkiewicz9070Ай бұрын
wilt was probably the greatest big man ever. Ask Bill Russel
@leealtman28 күн бұрын
Kareem the GOAT ?? Wilt was way more talented, bigger & stronger, better passer, better rebounder, blocker, higher % score and much faster.
@davidkacinec76207 күн бұрын
You guys are funny, you really don't know very much about past players. Olajuwon never controlled a game like Chamberlin. Just because there is not video of his game does not mean it didn't happen. One player's lifetime stats are 30 points 23 rebounds and 8.8 blocks per game. Give me a break, he did all that wearing canvas converse shoes.
@Alphasports576 Жыл бұрын
Max lies to himself he is intellectually dishonest
@wramsey19325 күн бұрын
What the hell is wrong with these guys,they couldn't hold birds jockstrap.Even Kareem said Birds the best
@Retiredin0923 күн бұрын
Of the group provided, there's no debate. Bill Russell.
@MarcoPolo-je5ej11 ай бұрын
Ah, yes. The great Kim Olashawan is often overlooked.
@overratedgm571329 күн бұрын
I gotta go with Korean
@bryanfox672627 күн бұрын
Bird is the GOAT.
@williamrogers-y2t27 күн бұрын
MJ, the greatest of all time!!
@bryanfox672627 күн бұрын
Larry Joe Bird & Elgin Baylor
@irishgrl23 күн бұрын
This is one podcast that is so disrespectful towards Larry 😡
@jimleffler79766 күн бұрын
Yea I'm a Celtics fan but I gotta go Kareem above Dream Olajuwon
@RichardValenzuela-m9r11 ай бұрын
Magic is the only choice he led the league I stls b2b yrs first guard to do that should’ve got dpoy but they didn’t have that award til after few yrs in league….man please! Magic goat!
@blakekeithley34005 ай бұрын
Wilt Chamberlain
@arautus Жыл бұрын
Kareem is the greatest center.
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
Top five, imo it's Hakeem, Russell, Wilt, Kareem and the most underrated player in NBA history, Moses Malone, the man won the MVP 3 times! People so forget that
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
Wilt
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
@@melvinhhcp3615 Mark Eaton
@melvinhhcp3615 Жыл бұрын
@@Gregory-sm9pf lol
@Gregory-sm9pf Жыл бұрын
@@melvinhhcp3615 good sense of humor brother!
@JAMESGANG-f5u27 күн бұрын
Maxwell 🍋 more like Still sour 40 years later. Was on one of the 2 best teams in the league yet showed up out of shape, lazy and Red sent him on down the line. 👎🏼
@billybuttram2458 Жыл бұрын
Magic is the best all around player.Compare his field goal percentage to birds and his triple doubles to birds and see what you come up with
@roxydejaneiro5640 Жыл бұрын
You get Magic who got the ball 15 to 20 times more per game against a far weaker conference 30 games per year.
@billybuttram2458 Жыл бұрын
@@roxydejaneiro5640 west usually won the championship when magic played in the eighties against Boston
@krisharkleroad8 Жыл бұрын
How can he be if his defense sucked? Bird better shooter from more places on the floor. 50-40-90 club 2X. Better foul shooter. Better rebounder. Best passing forward ever.
@krisharkleroad8 Жыл бұрын
If you look just at FG% Then Artis Gilmore is the best shooter! Ha, ha😅
@billybuttram2458 Жыл бұрын
@@krisharkleroad8 maybe so but birds field goal percentage is 47.3 and his triple doubles are 68.Also magic won 2 out of 3 NBA finals against bird and ncaa finals against bird magic also won so put that in your pipe and smoke it
@georgebrokaw1364 Жыл бұрын
Max still on drugs and Hakeem isn’t better than Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem! Also if Jordan didn’t retire, he would have no rings!!! He’s a top ten center not a top ten player. I think I’d take Moses ahead of him because he’s lucky that Houston even beat the Knicks that year…👍🏀🙃
@duskopopov77 Жыл бұрын
Olajuwon isn't a top ten player tells me u don't know basketball, I guess u forgot that in 1986 Olajuwon dismantled Kareem and the champion Lakers in only his second year, and don't come back and say Kareem was past his prime, because the yr before he was the MVP against the Celtics in the finals, no other player Dominated at both ends of the floor like Olajuwon did, and if had played along a player like Kobe or magic or Stockton etc, he would have won five or six championships EASILY!
@georgebrokaw1364 Жыл бұрын
@@duskopopov77 Woulda, coulda, shoulda..🙈 I know from your statement that you never saw Wilt play and they narrowly beat the Lakers with that lucky basket that year and Parish and the Celtics beat them pretty good in 86..👍 Barely nipped the Knicks in ‘94 thanks to Starks horrible shooting..🥴 that being said with MJ playing he has NO ring at all! Everybody I mentioned was a better team player and Bill Russell dominated the defense end with rebounds and blocks..👍 Hakeem was great but he’s down on list which leaves him out of top ten!
@duskopopov77 Жыл бұрын
@@georgebrokaw1364 oh so the argument only applies to you when it comes time to woulda shoulda coulda, if Sampson doesn't hit that shot, uh, they were down 3-1 after the Lakers won the first game, and if John starks this John starks that, fact is when another team beats u regardless, it's because they executed a little more than the other team, but let's get back to Olajuwon absolutely dismantling Kareem much like Moses did in the 82-83 finals, u know why Olajuwon and Moses did that?.. because u put a body on Kareem and he didn't like it, he was the classic finesse player, and by the way my bro, I've been watching the NBA for sixty years.. I've seen them all!
@ericklardie480811 ай бұрын
I beg to differ Hakeem olajuwon was the only man I seen was able to stop shaq and beat Shaq is that the best of him on more than one occasion matter of fact even once in the finals remember Shaq is the one who got swept
@ericklardie480811 ай бұрын
If my mom had a dick she'd be my dad the rockets are good enough to beat them both times I'm talking about Michael Jordan an the bullshits but you never know the refs might of gave Chicago both of them championships also it's hard to beat Michael Jordan and the refs ask the Indiana Pacers
@leodrosia436929 күн бұрын
Akeem over bird haha
@glenray335 Жыл бұрын
Akeem was Bill Russell if he hadnt played basketball his whole life.
@jfearless342011 ай бұрын
Olajuwon was only great for two years. Jordan and Kareem were great for over 10 years.
@NBAHistoryCLNS11 ай бұрын
Hakeem prime was 10 years
@jfearless342011 ай бұрын
@@NBAHistoryCLNS okay but how many titles? How many mvps?