NEC 2020 404.2(C) Neutrals in Switch Boxes with Example and New 2020 Exceptions

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[@SparkyChannel]

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[@RobertLeBlancPhoto]

Having a neutral inside the switch box is a lifesaver when electronic switches are desired.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that is true!

[@farmerjim-fat-man-do]

electrician for 30 years, master for 20. Most of my work is in the industrial environment but have wired many homes back before this code change. This code change applies to any application but I don’t see a lot of switch legs in commercial / industrial applications. The exception for conduit is the work around when they are used. In my opinion, requiring a grounded conductor on a switch leg is another example of the electrical manufacturers influencing the code authors. Same as Arc fault receptacles/ breakers. Just ‘cause manufacturers can build it doesn’t mean it should be written into code. If electronic light control is specified in a home then yes, install the grounded conductor. Requiring this for every switch leg changes the way us old electricians work and think about residential wiring. Plus it’s a waste of resources. Now I have to change the way I route my branch circuits which requires more cable or to comply with this code or use a 3 conductor cable for the switch leg where a 2 conductor cable worked fine since electricity was installed in homes. Thats my rant for the day…stepping off my soap box now.

[@SparkyChannel]

The manufacturers do have a certain amount of influence IMO.

[@fritzmiller9792]

I agree. They are basically outlawing the classic switch loop and insisting on a switch leg simply because of the popularity of new electronic switches. Never mind that the micro amps that any of these switches may impose on the devices ground is instantaneous and probably less than the induced current naturally already taking place on every wire in the building. It is a waste of materials to run the extra wire.

[@awack_]

@@SparkyChannel yes as they should they get sued and pay out if they burn your home down!>

[@tuckernance]

I recently attempted to "quickly" help out my brother by installing a new dining room light and fixing a dimmer-switch three-way combo that had been broken for years. Well, that quick job turned into a full day job when I realized the wiring in 1973 was very different than what I learned on. This was the very situation I encountered with his setup. I ultimately had to get out my tracer and map each conductor out to figure out what was going on. That was a fun little learning experience.

[@mdvener]

When you got it figured out n working, it does make you feel a bit of accomplishment.

[@GregSr]

Great demo. Seeing is believing. My house was built in 1990. I ran into this exact situation last week. I wanted to install a smart dimming switch in the master bathroom. Opened the switch box up only to discover NO neutral wire. The smart switch requires a neutral connection. In the switch box, the white wire was hot and the black wire was the load. The bare copper ground wire was not connected to anything. Luckily, about 18 inches away was a normal wall outlet. I snaked a neutral wire from there over to the switch box. Bingo! The new smart switch is working as it should.

[@dontbuyprelude]

with an afci breaker if the receptacle was on a different circuit than the lighting, that would trip your afci breaker?

[@johnhaller5851]

@@dontbuyprelude Those smart switches don't use much power, so it depends on if it exceeds the leakage the AFCI can detect. Given that it was in a bathroom, it's possible that it was a GFCI protected outlet, and if a daisy-chained outlet, this could also trip the GFCI. Adding another GFCI outlet and removing the first GFCI pass-through from the circuit would be a way to address that issue.

[@allotherstaken3]

Levington makes smart switches that don't need a neutral.

[@rrsttt7505]

Neutrals are required for a vast majority of Smart Switches. I just installed all Smart Switches in my vacation house that was built in 1971. I was pleasantly surprised to find neutral wires in all my switch boxes.

[@kenbrown2808]

you got lucky. that was right around the time the industry was transitioning from "spider" layouts to daisy chain layouts. (spider has power to the fixture, and then a wire from the fixture to the switch and to each receptacle in the room)

[@gn4720]

I always preferred running the power to the switches and just a switch leg up to the light. Pulling light fixtures down when trouble shooting is a pain in the neck. I remember working on old houses with the Knob and Tube wiring. They switched the neutral and there was no ground. You had to run a wire from a pipe or the panel to use with your Wiggy so you could identify the hot and neutral. The good old days.

[@fritzmiller9792]

Even though I hate this new code and I have always preferred to wire switch legs like you, having the occasional switch loop that I might run outlawed is right aggravating. Sometimes it is very convenient to switch loop that distant isolated 3 way (making the white wire neutral) but if I understand this correctly that would require a four wire cable now or an added two wire ( which in turn would waste another conductor).

[@oUncEblUnt420]

your channel is gold. Thank you for going into the minor details, saves us decades.

[@SparkyChannel]

I appreciate that! Electrical work is all about the details.

[@samuelt2072]

This isn't just about installing a regular switch controlling a device; it's about the future possibility of a "electrical control device" (timer/switch; dimmer/switch, etc) being installed in the same box. These require more than than a ordinary switch loop.

[@SparkyChannel]

I agree, thanks!

[@Tolohtony]

Just in time. I'm wiring my basement bathroom and had it wired pre-2020. Thanks!

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent!

[@lelandlewis7207]

This reminds me of automotive wiring. All wires are in the main harnesses for all accessories so that many accessories can be dealer or aftermarket installed after delivery of the vehicle or at a future time. Volvo was doing this back in the 80s to save time and money manufacturing vehicles; they had standard features on each model, such as a DL had windup windows, a carbureted engine, steel rims and nothing fancy. Cruise control, radios, air conditioning, trailer towing packages, etc., were dealer installed if the customer wanted it. GL models all had power windows, heated leather seats, fuel injection, aluminium wheels, etc., but stereos, speakers, AC, etc. were dealer installed. This code is basically doing the same thing, having the wiring in place for future upgrades, thereby saving time and money if and when they are done. I do this in my own house, install wiring and water/sewer runs for things I may afford later on.

[@dallasconger958]

Regardless if the power is at the light it could be solved with a 3 wire to the switch box. Black/red for the switches hot and the neutral wire nutted off for future smart switches in a remodel that is. Power to the switch box in new construction. I use the big single gang boxes anywhere I can. They’re not that much more in cost.

[@webluke]

So if you're doing a new installation or have the finished work off it will save you just to run your feed into the switch. More people will want "smart" things added to their house and this change just helps make sure that it can be added without pulling new wire. I also don't see this as just a way to keep code writers in a job, this is more of them catching up to the demand for new switches and fixtures.

[@ClTlZEN_X]

I remember my first switch loop as if it was yesterday. Never seen anything like it before. Now those retros are no challenge.

[@dandearman2871]

Never to old to learn new things. Thanks. Nice job.

[@apizalfoshizal]

Bill great content. With all time on my hands now I would love some of your old videos !

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Patrick. I'll see what I can do, thanks!

[@ronaldoleksy8264]

Makes sense when you are using electronic control. I remember be taught about switch loops as in your example. I have ran I to switch loops an electronic dimmer. We decided not to use electronic device. God video

[@joeweatlu5169]

Thanks. I never would have thought to use a 12/3 from the light to the switch the way you described.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Joe!

[@markt9263]

This is the video I requested. Thank you for posting so quickly. Now I going to wire accordingly and install my smart dimmer switches. Because of all of your help I may have rename Alexa to Bill. Thank you again and hope KZbin will reload all of your videos and subscribers. Also, I am changing all outlets and switches to Leviton.

[@SparkyChannel]

Hi Mark! Leviton is my favorite brand. I've used other brands but I keep coming back to Leviton. Yes, I hope so too!

[@SparkyChannel]

Mark, check out my video tomorrow on the Leviton voice dimmer and multi-location smart switches!

[@torodaman]

Oh that's great it will save time and material, I like tis new code I'm going to apply it on my next project and passing it on to my colleagues...thanks.

[@wombleofwimbledon5442]

Wagos are stupid cool. I love them.

[@emmanuelny33]

Hello Bill Well made video no body can explain it better then you; I learned so much because of your videos and I love all your videos, sorry about what happened to your channel I hope you get all your subscribers back don’t give up best wishes and all best my friend.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much I really appreciate it!

[@billytheweasel]

It's nice the 2020 shows the symbols at the bottom of all pages; shaded text = revision., a delta triangle = a text deletion. 404.2(C) isn't a new requirement but the grounded conductor requirement is good for electronic switches that used the EGC for smart power while sleeping. You don't need it if you ran pipe or will have an open wall and can add the neutral later.

[@brahimabdelsadek9534]

I have fun learning from you teacher.i'm tired of the French standard.trying to learn the American one.as beginner it's a little complicated but I love it.thanks for sharing.

[@SparkyChannel]

That's great! Cheers from San Diego, California!

[@srtstl2599]

Nice! I like doing this but I use three wire. Use black as hot and red as switch leg! Thanks for the video!

[@markc2643]

In my house all the ceiling fixtures are fed power from the switch box via 12-3. The red is always hot. It came in handy when I installed ceiling fans. I'm the only one of my friends that can leave the ceiling fans on when I turn the light off from the wall switch. It was built in 1960, so not all builders took the easy way out back then. There was one "WTF were they thinking" moment when I replaced the light switch in one of the bedrooms, the power fed into the light switch feeds through to the outlets in that room and to the bathroom.

[@danlux4954]

They make new wireless switches to fix that.

[@raymond3722]

It was more than helpful..it was a very thoughtful lesson with clear clarity.

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent, great to hear!

[@carlosrodriges9401]

Love your videos man, I’ve learn so many things in your videos thank you 🙏

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad to hear it!

[@Litephaze2000]

I LOVE that your switch/apparatus screws are vertical!!! I have a major pet peeve about that, LOL!

[@SparkyChannel]

Yeah, me too. LOL!

[@Litephaze2000]

@@SparkyChannel Wow! Your tutorials are great, AND you took the time to read, like, AND reply to my feedback! ALL in a fast turn-around timeframe! You have numerous Videos on your Channel w/ hundreds of comments, collectively! You're much-appreciated!

[@SparkyChannel]

@@Litephaze2000 Not a problem, thanks Joe!

[@staberdearth3130]

Without getting into boring detail, I replaced a vent/lighting unit for a bathroom with a vent/heat/light/nightlight unit. I was easily able to pull the old 14/3 wire and install the spec’d 12/3 wire and an additional 12/2 for the additional control circuits. Then, the client changed his mind and wanted a humidistat installed for the vent. That required a neutral connection on the unit. First impression, what a hassle. Fortunately the conditions that I had allowed me to easily pull the additional 12/3 through the box using the existing 14/3 with very little effort up in the attic space. I’ll keep that in mind next time, even if the neutral is not used in my installation, it can be capped and ready for the inevitable time when a neutral is needed in that box. It might even be me who gets called back to install a humidistat.

[@strangerofthe2067]

Just out of curiosity, why did you change wire size? Did you change the wire size of the whole circuit or just the switch leg from the switch to the fan? If the old wire was 14 gauge, I’d assume it was on a 15 amp breaker, so unless you changed the whole circuit out to 12 gauge wire and changed the breaker from a 15 amp to a 20 amp, then it wasn’t necessary to change wire size as it didn’t change the amps to the fan. Just curious as to the reasoning behind it.

[@staberdearth3130]

@@strangerofthe2067 Whole circuit. The 4 function fan unit called out a dedicated 20 amp circuit since it has a heater function. I pulled a new 12/2 line, new breaker to a junction box before the fan unit then added 2 12/3 drops to accommodate the 4 functions. Also, the humidistat as a part of the vent switch required a neutral. That I did not find out until I unboxed the unit. I’ll remember that next time. I probably was not clear or comprehensive enough in my explanation. Someone’s paying attention. In addition, the original 15 amp circuit was ridiculously overloaded (because house was built in the late 40’s combined with ignorant flippers from years before (they left a buried junction box for me to have to bring up to code and some sloppy 3 gang box wiring.). The circuit fed all outlets and lights in two bedrooms the full bathroom, a hall light and the refrigerator downstairs. Lot’s of reasons to split the circuit as best as could be done without ripping out walls (all metal sheathed cable on old work).

[@robertpost1807]

I’m an electrician and you do a very good job.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much Robert!

[@andyblackpool]

In the UK most older houses lighting circuits are loop wired from the ceiling rose though these days younger electricians tend to loop from the switch/junction box; our wiring regs' allow either. As a point in the UK its mandatory to shield all earth wires within back boxes with green & yellow sheathing. Also the switch goes down to turn on a light - up is ALWAYS off! But I suppose to you we do drive on the wrong side of the road also don't we? ha ha! ;-)

[@torodaman]

So here in the USA that's upsidedown...lol. I yell at my helpers when they install switches or receptacles upside down.....except the half hots....

[@kenbrown2808]

@@torodaman if the switch says "NO" on the top of it, it means you installed it upside down. but to overexplain, that came about from the days of knife switches - code requires them to be installed hinge down so you have to push them up to turn them in (so they won't accidentally fall into the on position)

[@tedlahm5740]

Ken Brown Wonderful explanation. As always very logical.

[@kenbrown2808]

@@tedlahm5740 one of the things you learn is there is a reason for every standard, and some of the reasons make sense

[@earthpoetry7160]

Amazing explanation 🙌🏻 learning a lot from your videos !

[@SparkyChannel]

Awesome, thank you!

[@bananaaaa3428]

Ay thanks for all of ur videos, ur a great teacher

[@peacefrog0521]

Wow - I have exactly this problem in the bathroom of my 1960 hone, where I wanted to install a single-pole smart switch. I pulled off the plate, pulled out the switch, and lo and behold, no neutral - even though it had been remodeled sometime in the last 10-12 years and had a newer box inside (though I have a bad feeling it won’t be big enough). It has two blacks, and I believe a ground - no white. Therefore no new switch for now. Every other switch or outlet I’ve pulled out has a neutral (including the GFCI a few feet away). I might go back and pull it out again and maybe pull out the box and look behind it; I have a feeling they may have been hidden back there. Or maybe I could try to run a neutral sideways from the GFCI.

[@jonathanfurtado3696]

I wouldn't suggest or endorse stealing a neutral from the GFI receptacle. Your best option would to be to try and fish a new cable (12-3 or 14-3 depending on the size of the breaker feeding that circuit) from the light fixture box to your switch box. Or see if you can find a switch that meets your needs that does not require a neutral, they do make them for occupancy sensory.

[@dougfaunt5565]

I did a retrofit where I already had 12-3, but that had been fished, so.wasnt fastened inside the wall. I was able to use the 12-3 to fish 12-2-2 to pick up the neutral (obviously you could do the same with 12-4). I have some 12-2-2 since I'm retrofit installing AFCI'S.

[@jackfisher7274]

Thanks Sparky!

[@SparkyChannel]

No problem, thanks!

[@21trips]

In 2020 NEC grounded neutral conductors do not get connected to grounding conductors in the main panel. They get connected to the grounding bus at the point of first disconnect. And the 2020 NEC says the point of first disconnect is to be outside the house before the main panel. Therefore, under 2020 NEC the grounded neutrals and grounding wires must be kept separate in the main panel - unbonded.

[@TofuInc]

This is going to throw a lot of people off that are used to doing an indoor main panel.

[@zigzagzaag]

@@TofuInc is the main panel ever indoors? I've only ever seen them outside at the meter. Residential.

[@TofuInc]

@@zigzagzaag It's pretty standard to have them indoors here in the Midwest. Mine is in my garage. In fact I can't think of a single one around here that has one outdoors. Depends on where you live.

[@zigzagzaag]

@@TofuInc Oh wow, I had no idea. But the main panel can still be easily identified by the 50 amp breakers and general lack of 15 amp breakers, whereas the subpanel would likely have no 50 amp breaker and a bunch of 15-20 amp breakers, right?

[@TofuInc]

@@zigzagzaag Not exactly. In places we have a panel at the pole there will be a 200amp breaker feeding the panel in the house there may also be a 15amp or 20amp breaker feeding a shed or outbuilding. Neutrals are bonded in this panel. Most residential in the city there will now be a disconnect by the meter and a panel inside or just a combined meter panel. Every situation will be different.

[@johnmarioles4037]

Hi Sparky As always great video ! Always enjoy them! Just one thing in this one though, and I hope that it shows that I was paying attention . I couldn't see any staple or clamp on the cable securing it to the stud as it was terminating into the switch box at the end ? I know the vid was on grounded conductors required in switch boxes, and you changed out the piece of NM sheathed cable, just thought you might want to have kept the example as it would best be found in the field. Looking forward to more GREAT segments, especially on the 2020 code changes THAN YOU👍

[@Litephaze2000]

@Jon Marioles: I think he is probably well aware of that, though ya make a great point. Though I'd wager a bet that this is primarily focused on Grounding... Thus, if one takes a look at virtually any of the Videos, you'll see the "Backplane" board or plywood mounting assembly has them!

[@wellcraft2136]

Phillip Phillips wrote, "Wellcraft a 3 or 4 way switch does require a neutral in the box in less one of the exceptions is met." That is essentially correct and as I've previously posted. However, technically there are no "exceptions", there are provisions whereby a grounded conductor is not required, pursuant to Article 404.2(C). The exclusionary provisions that come into play most often in residential applications are 404.2(C)(5) and 404.2(C)(7). From my perspective, it is splitting hairs. Conditions may change in future such that a neutral would be required, so wiring to include a neutral at every switch location should be mandatory. It is not difficult to accommodate with the available high-cube PVC switch boxes.

[@gerardoortega4027]

Thanks for your videos and explanations. Learning a lot, very good videos

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks so much!

[@zerosparky9510]

Just smart anymore in New work to have a neutral in a switch box.

[@SparkyChannel]

Agreed. Thanks Roger!

[@OriginalJetForMe]

I tell you, it should be required that every box for any device have a hot and neutral and ground. I’m trying to put smart switches in my old house and it’s proving to be a huge pain.

[@Jason_Canada]

Oh you dont like the 2 wire drop lol

[@news_internationale2035]

No.

[@blueoval250]

I’ll leave this up to the customer if it requires more material. There is no safety aspect involved and therefore none of my concern.

[@davefoc]

If you are saying that it is equally safe to run power to the light and then wires to a switch as opposed to running power to the switch and switched power to the fixture, I disagree. A lot of home owners are going to assume that the power is off to the light fixture when they turn the power off. I don't know how often that poses a real danger but it seems less safe to me.

[@hangngoaigiare]

Very clearly explain sweet music. Thank you very much

[@SparkyChannel]

You are welcome, thanks!

[@mikeshook5095]

Cold switch or New York switch leg, love it and hate it lol

[@stevethomas5849]

That's happing over here in the UK. However if the supply Live (Hot ) and Neutral are at the switch this might be problem. Think of Smoke alarms (on ceiling) installed at a later date it would need both a permanent Live( Hot ) and Neutral. Ain't no good if its down at the switch. Future proofing wire up to ceiling permanent Live (Hot) and Neutral along with Switch Live for lights. Then wire back the permanent Live and Neutral and Switch Live to the switch. Happy Days.

[@mrgarconjimmenald3821]

You have many links but you missed the AC delco torque wrench link. Did you use this in the video?

[@matthewtuel2747]

It's good to know that my basement re-wiring follows the 2020 NEC. I wired exactly as shown with a 14/3 to the switch box and nutted the white for future use. The power comes in through the light box as it did originally. I am wondering if that is allowed or if I should have "rectified" the situation given that it's an unfinished basement and running new wires is less of a chore that it otherwise would be.

[@stephenbowe4074]

Thank You Sir, Very Good Explanation.

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks Stephen!

[@jrelectrician4387]

Great Work bro 👍🏼👌✌🏼

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@ericnortan9012]

In commercial we generally feed from the light, or at least from the ceiling, so we switch loop down to the switch.

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent, thanks!

[@DevJB]

Same, 14-2 into 1st light, then 14-3 from light to light and from last light to switch. White connects to all lights and ends up capped at the switch. Black bypasses through lights with nuts and connects to switch. Red connects to all lights black wire and connects to other side of switch. --^ Basic method..-- 3 way and 4 ways are more fun.

[@alekseyshkolnik4511]

That’s because you generally have an EMT going down to the switch box and neutral can be pulled in at a later time, if required, for devices like occupancy sensors. If you are using MC cable then you have to run 12/3(14/3) down to your switch just like residential to provide the neutral at the switch.

[@ericnortan9012]

@@alekseyshkolnik4511 yes 👍, but there are provisions around running the neutral as long as it can be accessed in the future. In general you are correct.

[@allotherstaken3]

In new buildings I've seen switches are low volt or ethernet back to lighting control panels.

[@ryszarddopierala6624]

Very good explanation.

[@ryszarddopierala6624]

Question:?Why they killing neutral language?

[@frankortolano5886]

Yes it was, ,thanks

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent, thanks Frank!

[@kevinla4093]

How would you do this for a 3-way switch? Is it possible without using a 4 conductor wire?

[@WardCo]

Worth mentioning the code shown but not called out: that a grounded conductor is not required in a 3-way switch-loop box if the other switch has a view of the entire room area.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, thanks, that's a good point.

[@mdvener]

To me that makes no sense. In residential, the Romex will have a ground. A commercial application you will be using a 4 square, or gangable box. Both metal boxes. So you are telling me that if a large room with multiple doors n switches in the same room I don't need to ground the device, or the box? Or am I reading something wrong. 🤔 using M/C cable is not a ground. And even EMT, you still need a grounding conductor. You used to be able to use EMT as your grounding conductor, not any more. In a hospital or doctor's office that uses x-ray, or MRI, you would use special green M/C Cable with a bare wire ground for equipment caseing or boxes that must be grounded, then the insulated ground is for devices or equipment ground. One goes to the metal box, or housing, the other goes to the devices or actual equipment boards.

[@WardCo]

@@mdvener You are confusing a GROUNDED conductor (neutral in this case) with an equipment GROUNDING conductor.

[@mdvener]

@@WardCo thank you.

[@stephenholland6328]

What was the reason behind the code changes?

[@HiveMind2024]

thank you

[@SparkyChannel]

You're welcome, thanks!

[@WApnj]

Hey Sparky, what does the code say about marking the white wire as hot? I have always passed the black as hot to the switch and switched the white with a marking back to the fixture. You have it reversed...

[@alexflores8293]

Very good video and very interesting 👍

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@panama-sx2oh]

THANK YOU SPARKY FOR KEEPING ME UPDATED WITH THE CHANGES. ONE QUESTION IM GOING TO TAKE MY ELECTRICIAN TEST HERE IN NYC IN ABIUT YEAR STUDYING MY CODE BOOK NOW WHAT I WANT TO KNOW HOW WAS THE TEST WHERE YOU TOOK AT N HOW LONG U BEEN LICENSED. IM READY TO STUDY HARD

[@johnhill8958]

So then why not just bring the power to the switch box and run the cable to the load? 12/2 w ground is cheaper than 12/3 with ground.

[@benmeuninck7410]

so on new switch installs it needs white wire in the box ? all are switches have 2 wires from 1960's and the down stares has all lights on one 15 A breaker

[@victorteensenaelectricidad3747]

God bless you my good man good explanation

[@SparkyChannel]

Glad it helped, thanks!

[@DiffEQ]

Your imaginary god friend isn't taking requests, is he? Or do you think YOU have the power to "bless" people? SMH Grow up.

[@cjames9001]

I was a little confused on the exceptions - do the exceptions mean that 404.2 does NOT apply to a closet light switch as it isn’t a bedroom or bathroom?

[@finarollerz]

When I started electrical work in SF in the ‘70’s we had switched neutrals wired the old way, very unsafe.

[@SparkyChannel]

I understand.

[@chris90367]

Hey Bill I have a very good question is a switch loops do up to code in 2020 the house I’m living in is 1968 can you please answer this question thank you.

[@dannyhullihen966]

Would this also apply to switches wired from a sub-panel? (i.e. non-bonded)

[@fernandosuarez2109]

Good accdg to Code . the right loop connection,

[@SparkyChannel]

Thanks!

[@MrHeat1up]

This video confused the hell out of me. Then I realized he said the power starts where the light is. But why take the power source straight to the light and not the wall switch?

[@SparkyChannel]

Sometimes, especially in older houses, the power comes to the light. In modern wiring we usually bring the power to the switch. I try to cover all the possibilities.

[@MrHeat1up]

@@SparkyChannel thank you for your response. I look forward to a new video.

[@mbburry4759]

Sometimes it is a lot less cable to run to fixture first as well, depending on layout. To a small extent pretty much always, just running one cable down the wall and another right out where it pretty much came from. Suppose if the neutral is required and you have to run 12-3 or 14-3 from fixture to switch there might not be much or any savings, but still can be neater, and less crap in the wall

[@arthurlunais]

Can you start your homerun or main wire bringing in the power in the swtich box then go up to the ceiling light box?

[@zigzagzaag]

Yes, but if the cable is already run and you're doing work to change a switch, then changing the cabling setup is often very hard to do.

[@johnsmithth3318]

I always tape the switch leg

[@Roy-ij1wq]

Does the new code prohibit "dead end" three-way switches where 14/3 wire runs between two three-way switches and bypasses the light? Red and black are travelers and white is attached to common screw on one end and black wire from 14/2 wire from light on the other end. I have at least two of these in my 1951 house. I assume if I don't disassemble a finsh wall, I can keep the original setup.

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, that has been prohibited since 2011. Yes, there is no need to disassemble a finished wall.

[@ralphvickers2339]

so a 3 way or 4 way switch would not need the nuetral wire ? I have never seen a 14/4 wire set

[@zd6577]

I have the same question, but in a 3way or 4way switch set up you can only install one electronic control switch in one spot same as with a dimmer so I don’t think it applies? This code was pushed by manufacturers so they could sell more smart switches

[@csimet]

Oddly enough, I've always run power to the switch first on any new circuit. Seems more logical since the run from the switch to the light(s) are only live when the switch is on, vs. having the line always live (that tagged white conductor) if you run power to the light(s) first. The Run from the switch to the light(s) always has a neutral available then.

[@zigzagzaag]

All of my runs in my house go through the lights and then out from there to the switches and outlets, so I don't have this option unless I change completely how the runs come in to each room. However, when I change a light I bypass the light with the hot and tie the hot directly to the black going to the switch. Then the switch's white goes to the light's hot.

[@tonydoggett7627]

In Australia we call that “loop at the switch” method of wiring a house. The other method is “loop at the light” 🦘

[@normbograham]

This makes me want to take the power to the switch, and have a switch + receptacle, on the wall. Then only run the 12/2 with ground to the light.

[@staberdearth3130]

My thoughts as well.

[@ricoludovici2825]

I've been feeding the lamps in my new house at the switch. Seems like a good idea, but if you connect one or more receptacles or switches downstream, the box starts to fill up. That leaves less pace for a motion detector switch or timer. So I changed to feeding the power to the lamp and running a 12/3 to the switch. That way, the box is relatively empty and you have both hot, switched power and [unused, capped] neutral without crowding.

[@zigzagzaag]

When I run a switch loop, I bypass the hot past the light so that the hot goes directly to the cable going to my switch's black wire, then my switch's white wire becomes the load wire back to the light's black wire. Then the light's white wire ends up becoming a proper neutral. Is there any reason this isn't proper or correct?

[@fritzmiller9792]

Yes, the Code says to make the white hot to the switch loop. I always have done it that way because in the actual J box of the light you will avoid having two white wires supplying the actual light wires. ( The tape can fall off in time even if the installer re-identified) PS that wasn't code for many years, you could do it either way.

[@nhankhuu5643]

It used to cheaper to run 2x12-2. that 12-3 cost 2 times as much

[@farmerdave7965]

I don't do switch legs. I feed power to the switch box and then to lighting. Problem solved. And besides, your switchbox should always have a neutral because you might want to install some kind of electronic light control in the future.

[@stevenpersinger6577]

I never seen any type of control device require a neutral.

[@wellcraft2136]

@@stevenpersinger6577Ah, but there are quite a few out there. Bill demonstrated one of them in this video, so you've seen that one!

[@MrFitness94]

Steven Persinger how would it run it’s integrated circuit without an available voltage difference?

[@stevenpersinger6577]

@@MrFitness94 actually just referring to single pole toggles in a basic home

[@MrFitness94]

Steven Persinger oh well yeah like Wellcraft said you’ve seen them now!

[@jesseestrada4290]

I would leave the black power wire that goes down to the switch box black as well and the white the switch leg....!

[@chriscrump4707]

That is against code. A reidentified conductor cannot go back to a device.

[@normbograham]

I question that it's always necessary for new work. Because of the two words "as necessary". Feel free to debate, I might agree with you. (The grounding conductor shall be extended to any switch location AS NECESSARY....). It might be a good idea. Sure, but a closet light, will likely never be smart, or have a fan (unless it's a grow closet, lol).

[@shieldcracker]

A closet is not a habitable area, so is not required to extend the neutral. The same would apply to other spaces such as attics, basements, open porches, pantries BUT all this is subject to the definitions of livable in the applicable building code. The main issue I see with this rule is the code does not identify the type of structure, say dwelling unit, non-dwelling (commercial)n etc.

[@MrKen59]

In the case where you have a 80's wiring and want to install an intelligent switch, can you use the earth ground as the return or are you out of luck unless you can find a way of pulling a neutral? They specify a specific number of devices?

[@NickFrom1228]

Earth ground is the NON current carrying conductor so that would be a firm no. The only time the non current grounding conductor should ever carry current is for a millisecond during a fault situation.

[@MrKen59]

@@NickFrom1228 that’s what I thought believed. I had planned to grab a white wire and pull down to switch along side the Romex. Though I might just let it go as I’m using a smart bulb.

[@NickFrom1228]

@@MrKen59 Pulling a wire down outside a sheath would also be violation. They would expect you to pull in 14/3 if feeding from the light. Or if you can get to the attic you can do things like pull a second 14/2 down to feed the box so it would be as though you were feeding the light from the box. Would be weird but I suppose an option that didn't require pulling out old cable etc. I would be tempted to get a wireless switch. Anyhow, pulling a 14/3 is the "best" in terms of future proofing, functionality etc but would require some drywall work to deal with pulling the staples, pulling in new wire, stapling, and of course the wiring, which is super simple.

[@Zombieland-mp6cx]

They call it a lazy leg

[@diy-aholic6501]

What about if the lght and switch uses a breaker in a subpanel where neutral and ground bus are not bonded? Is it srill a 'grounded conductor due to the upline main panel?

[@dd313car]

Neutral is always grounded. neutral from subpanel goes to the mainpanel and there it's grounded. Otherwise switches from main need an Neutral and from sub not ? This would be nonsens

[@kwakman99]

Yes exactly.

[@rogerf7229]

Simple solution. Run the Entire Romex to the switch box, then to the Ceiling Light. Switch the neutral wire is what the pro's say.

[@arthurlunais]

What about hanging a celing fan with a ligh and you want to a light switch and a fan switch seperate would you use a 12/3 or 12/4 and where would you start the homerun in the ceiling box or light switch box?

[@zigzagzaag]

Are you running separate cable runs for each switch? I did this (added a second switch) in my bedroom to control the ceiling fan separately and so now just have a 12/2 for each of the two switches. If you have a preexisting fan/light with a preexisting switch, then it might be easier to just change out your switch with a dual switch (one with a switch on top and switch on bottom of a single gang device).

[@allotherstaken3]

14=3 or 2 runs 14-2 so you can run the fan and light seperate or if 1 circuit is already there get a remote kit.

[@daletyler5344]

With the increased use of led bulbs that use so much less load will code be reduced to a smaller wire like a 16 or so?

[@jacobnunemaker7126]

No because a homeowner still has the ability to install an incandescent or CFL in the circuit

[@austinreeves5221]

@@jacobnunemaker7126 exactly it wont ever change

[@normbograham]

Lets simplify the answer, to copper wiring. amps create heat. so, wires have ratings based on the heat related to current. 12 awg (cu) is good for 20 amps. 14 (cu) is good for (15 amps). And 16 (cu) is only good for 8 amps. (dolt...) there are no 8 amp breakers sold at home depot. So...no, not currently.

[@user-bo9op9iy1k]

So running a home run to a switch box and then from the switch up to the light isn’t allowed anymore, or it is because you’d have two grounded conductors. And then your pig tailed grounding conductors and of course your ungrounded conductors opening and closing the circuit.

[@jeffeverde1]

NO, that is not the case. NEC permits bringing the source power into the switch box or into fixture box. But where the switch box is the source, then a neutral will always be present at the switch and there's nothing to talk about. This video is addressing how 404.2(c) affects the wiring method where power originates at the fixture box. Where power is coming in to the fixture first, before 404.2(c) it was a common (and legal) practice to use a 2-wire (white/black/ground) cable for the switch leg (from the fixture to the switch) and relabeling the white conductor to indicate that it was being used as a "hot" conductor. Now, NEC requires that 3-wire (white/black/red/ground) cable be used -- except in the exceptions mentioned. This is because many "smart" switches and electronic dimmers now require neutral to the switch (to power the electronics that enable the "smart" function of the switch)

[@robv6794]

Does this apply also for attics ?

[@sonofthunder.]

dad tried to teach me these switch loop,which threw me a curve ball,on a ceiling fan,

[@phishhu]

Are you paid by Amazon or do you only buy from Amazon? Do you have ways to buy the products you use without supporting Amazon?

[@mrniusi11]

he does get commission from Amazon, you can see it in the links. Obviously you can copy the names of products and do your own search to find them from other retailers. Are you 5?

[@DiffEQ]

What the eff are you babbling about?

[@joeweatlu5169]

Do you have a problem with his getting a small commission from Amazon?

[@josephdestaubin7426]

Accepting for some devices that require power at the switch, why would you put anything other than neutrals at the switch? Does one not typically relable the romax to be 2 white wires such that the neutral alone goes to the switch?

[@SparkyChannel]

Excellent! Way to go!

[@josephdestaubin7426]

@@SparkyChannel So, are you saying that's correct? Also, thank you for taking the time to share your work with us.

[@JustHazardous]

What are you talking about??? It's only neutral or power based on what it's hooked up to, not the color of the wire. The wires going from the fixture down to the switch (a switch loop) is power wiring. A switch switches power - you do not switch neutrals!!!!!

[@WApnj]

@@JustHazardous just a historical note.. Switched neutrals are common in really old systems.... Confuses many 'modern' techs.. Lol

[@user-dr2pg8fk2i]

Pardon, but not having the power switched before delivered is a dumb practice. How that ever made, sense beyond saving a few cents worth of copper, will continue to be a mystery.

[@GilmerJohn]

It's save a LOT of copper.

[@pb7379-j2k]

My house was built in 1915 and had electric added to it about a decade later. Every ceiling fixture has power in it and old brittle cloth wire. I hate it

[@GilmerJohn]

@@pb7379-j2k -- Well a lot of homes built in that era (including where my grandmother lived) has "Knob & Tube:" wiring. So long as you didn't mess with it, it was reasonably "safe & sound." For the most part it used the wire insulation (rubber with cloth wrapping) only as protection from accidental contact. Shorts were prevented by carrying the wires through ceramic tubes when going through wood beams, and on ceramic "knobs" when going across wood beams.

[@pb7379-j2k]

John Gilmer yep. Mine’s not K&T, it’s two conductors in flexible metal conduit (like BX today). But it’s scary to work with because the insulation cracks and falls off

[@gyrgrls]

@@pb7379-j2k Worse still, this cloth covered wire is a pigtail drop from K&T in the attic, and it was common practice to switch the neutral. Gotta love those old Colonial Revival and Victorian homes.

[@CompleteMisc]

Great video. Something in 404.2(C) caught my eye. It is the following text: "The number of electronic control switches on a branch circuit shall not exceed five, and the number connected to any feeder on the load side of a system or main bonding jumper shall not exceed 25." This seems crazy to me and I'm wondering if I'm missing something or misreading the code. I am switching my house over to a smart house and swapping out traditional switches with smart switches which I'm sure qualify as electrical switches. Many branch circuits have more than 5 switches and I'm guessing that I would have potentially more than 25 on any feeder. I know there are new homes being built with all smart switches and I can't believe they are putting in panels so bi that no branch has more than 5 switches. What is the rationale for this rule? I would think the current drain from the switches themselves would be pretty small so I can't imagine it's that. Anyone have insight on this?

[@sparkyobrian6417]

1) they can sell more equipment, 2) being manufacturers they know everything, we lowly scum electricians know nothing, and 3) see rules 1 & 2.

[@zacker150]

If you have a neutral wire running to the switch, the 404.2(C) Exception and the 5/25 device limit in it doesn't apply. You can have as many smart switches as you want with a neutral wire. The 5-switch limit is for switches without a neutral at the box. In the absence of a neutral wire, there are switches listed under UL 773A which use the equipment grounding wire as a neutral. These are allowed under NEC 404.22's Exception, which states "Exception: Electronic control switches that introduce current on the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted for applications covered by 404.2(C), Exception. Electronic control switches that introduce current on the equipment grounding conductor shall be listed and marked for use in replacement or retrofit applications only." Since UL 773A limits the ground current to 0.5mA, the 5 and 25 switch limits ensure that at worst, the current on the ground is 2.5 mA on branch circuit conductors and 12.5 mA on feeder conductors.

[@ricoludovici2825]

@@zacker150 Yes. That continuous flow on the neutral when all the switches are in OFF/SLEEP mode would be sensed as an imbalance and the AFGCI breaker would trip.

[@saulparraga6021]

I couldn't see where you put the red one in the switch.

[@jeremyandmarissa]

Can you do a 3 way switch loop video?

[@JuanRamos-sh9we]

Thank You

[@jobaecker9752]

Wow. Never thought so much could change for something so 'trivial.' (Thanks for the clarity.) Here's a dumb question I've never considered before: In a switch loop, I always used the white wire with black tape wrap to "come down" to my switch, and then back to the light with the solid black. Is there an actual code requirement for this arrangement, or can it be done either way?

[@SparkyChannel]

I don't know of a code covering that.

[@markhammond4539]

Down on white Back on black

[@kenbrown2808]

@@SparkyChannel there is: a white wire may be relabeled and become a hot wire, but it is not allowed to have it turned on and off by a switch. sorry, don't have the article reference off the top of my head.

[@mdvener]

In my switch loop, take a red sharpie, pull the back end of using needle nose pliers, put the top back on, this way you don't get red marked hands, there will be an ink cartridge wrapped in thin plastic, use you box cutter to put a slot cut about 1/2" long at the end, then on the white. Slide it on the white in the box up to the sheathing ten down to as far as yo need it. Do the same at the lite box. Tie the blks together, now you have a red as a switch leg at both ends. Been doing this for years. I know all boxes need a nuetral so if it is going to be inspected, 14/3, then just cap of the white. After 40 years you pick up tips along the way. Good luck.

[@mdvener]

The code book wants you to run a 14/3 ,,,12/3, what ever size you are using. All boxes must have a nuetral. They don't want a home owner using the ground if you want to and, let's say an outlet from that box. In the long run you are probably better off using a 3 wire n capping off the nuetral.

[@scullanbonecrusher]

I thought you can no longer on new installation use a 2 wire for the switch ?

[@digi3218]

If I understand thia video right.. You can't, except for the following conditions: 6:16

[@richardwax8796]

Question? I see you used the push in connectors on your wires. So a electrician guy on KZbin claims they are not safe do to heat cycles that the medal will break down easy. What's your opinion?

[@im2yys4u81]

I use Wagos extensively. The one caveat to using Wagos is to make sure you're using genuine Wagos, not knock offs. I've seen tons of cheap Chinese knock offs on Amazon and eBay, but they aren't UL and CEC approved.

[@ayeitsshane806]

Yes this code was added in 2017 I thought

[@SparkyChannel]

Yes, I believe you're correct.

[@griffinreitz7041]

I'm sure glad I'm retired... :) Only work I do is for myself, and I'll do it the way I want to. LOL My house, and the people living in it, are to old to be "smart" anyhow.

[@obinnakalu1777]

Hello Bill. I am under the impression that you don't bond the neutral and ground in a distribution box. But your video says otherwise. Is part of the new code to bond the neutral busbars to the ground busbar through a jumper?

[@wellcraft2136]

Obinna Kalu, NEC has always required and continues to require bonding the Neutral and the ground/grounding (not the "grounded" conductor, that IS the Neutral) conductors together, with a "bonding jumper", but *ONLY* at the service equipment. The Neutral conductor is technically referred to as the "Grounded Conductor", because it is grounded at the factory. 😃 Of course, 'the factory' is the power company, or in some cases, at the separately derived power source, e.g., an on-site generator, wind or solar farm. Service equipment is defined as the first piece of equipment that the service entrance conductors land in and also provides an integral service disconnecting means from the premises wiring. In a typical residential environment the service entrance conductors are typically the cable(s) originating from the meter base and terminating in the service equipment. A bonding jumper can be a screw, a strap, or a small offset bar of some type. Most distribution panels designed and intended to be used as service equipment have one or two terminal (bus) bars for terminating the Neutrals and the "grounds", which are technically named/called the EGCs (wires), the Equipment Grounding Conductors, either bare or green-insulated wires. When a distribution panel is *not* the service equipment the Neutrals and the EGCs *must* be separately terminated and *not* bonded together. Sometimes this requires installing a separate terminal (bus) bar for the EGCs and *not* installing the bonding jumper on the factory mounted terminal (bus) bar, which is then to be used *only* for the Neutral terminations.

[@Yahs-our-El]

How come when your behind the cam I picture Scotty Kilmer talking lol

[@dredbud9272]

The neutral and ground are only to be bonded in the first means of disconnect. If they are bonded after that you will have a nightmare with the new arc fault breakers.

[@obinnakalu1777]

@@wellcraft2136 thank you very much for this. Please assist me with this one question. One test that neutral and ground is continuous is to test for voltage. A voltmeter placed on the live and earth reads 120/220V as the case may be. I'm guessing this is because the neutral is bonded to the earth so definitely thesame voltage across live and neutral will be present across live and ground. From your explanations this is only to be done at the service disconnect point. Now here's my question, in subpanels or a sub panel, if voltage of 120/220V appears across the live and ground, does it mean somehow the ground is still bonded to the neutral point somehow even when the neutral and ground are on seperate bus bars inside the panel.. I humbly await your response

[@obinnakalu1777]

@@dredbud9272 thank you very much for this. Please assist me with this one question. One test that neutral and ground is continuous is to test for voltage. A voltmeter placed on the live and earth reads 120/220V as the case may be. I'm guessing this is because the neutral is bonded to the earth so definitely thesame voltage across live and neutral will be present across live and ground. From your explanations this is only to be done at the service disconnect point. Now here's my question, in subpanels or a sub panel, if voltage of 120/220V appears across the live and ground, does it mean somehow the ground is still bonded to the neutral point somehow even when the neutral and ground are on seperate bus bars inside the panel.. I humbly await your response