Negative Possibility Space - When Exploration Lets Players Down - Extra Credits

[@jahkra9259]

I like Dark Souls method, if they miss a negative possibility space, there'll be a helpful player who leaves a note laughing at anyone else who went to the same effort they did

[@2c3d48]

Wow... I just realized how clever that is!

[@Tohob]

huge, but hole ahead.

[@vod1165]

Try two-handed Large chest ahead.

[@AzNZinc]

Pointless ahead.

[@smort123]

Hooray for jumping!

[@Duxzen_ji]

Skyrim's world did so well to get rid of any negative space. If I saw a mountain or a cliff, there would always be something up there. I once jumped from the top of a waterfall and survived, and guess what? The ghost of a man who DIDN'T survive congratulated me at the bottom haha! Very awesome stuff.

[@gyrich]

I remember that. Thought it was amazing too lol.

[@DeathnoteBB]

What?? That’s wild. I always was afraid to jump from stuff cause you know, fall damage.

[@NelsonOokami]

Just for the record: you could use that Ethereal Thu'um and jump to achieve no fall damage at all. :)

[@3p1c_Mustache]

I just revisited this video to mention that Bethesda makes their mod programs free and easily accessible for this reason. There is tons of negative possibility space that is or can be addressed by player content, such as using gold and gems found in skyrim to make ornate or gilded steel weapons.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@3p1c_Mustache “Free and easily accessible”! That’s hilarious!

[@mt_xing]

"Come back!" *comes back* "Oh, you actually came back. Wasn't expecting that..." -Wheatley

[@Olors64]

Also the part when Wheatley tells you to go in the machine that would obviously kill you, and when you do: "Wow, I didn't think that would work!"

[@thezdude8512]

"Hey! You should just... Jump in that big pit there!" Jumps in "Oh, you actually did it... Well that was easy!" Achievement get!

[@applehead2134]

wow when was that?

[@texannationalist5887]

when he's about to crush you with the mashy spike plates, and then you escape

[@DeathnoteBB]

Yeah that was awesome

[@thetoxicnoble]

I remember in Halo 3 on the map sandtrap there were these giant vehicles called elephants. They were indestructible and very slow, making them hard to flip. If you did manage to flip one it would give you the "Press to flip vehicle" message but instead it would say "Press to flip.. wait what how did you do that?" making it feel extremely rewarding. Like the developers anticipated people to try and flip those things despite how difficult it could be and they left a gift for the people who did it.

[@KungKras]

Toxic Noble I remember that! Good game :)

[@stevenboelke6661]

I found a real-life easter egg hidden on top of a cliff in a park. It was written in stone and said: "Some days you just have to say "Fuck it, I did what I could today" and just let go of all the stuff you wanted to do. Life is too short to be angry with yourself for being human."

[@Szarps]

thanks for posting your experience, I've never heard that quote before and it actually is really helpful as is truth

[@stevenboelke6661]

+El rincón de Szarps I thought so too. Whoever carved it probably made it up.

[@jonathancollins8639]

Steven Boelke yo that's crazy

[@jamtea388]

That's an amazing note! It reminds me of one I saw at a burn event once "be gentle with each other so we can be dangerous together."

[@ettinakitten5047]

One of my biggest frustrations in Pokemon Yellow was that one guy who asks you if you want to join Team Rocket, and won't accept 'yes' as an answer. If you're going to have an option for the player to say 'yes', you should have it do more than just make the NPC ask if you're sure and restate the question. Seriously.

[@xSaraxMxNeffx]

there needs to be an official pokemon game that allows you to be the 'bad guy'. id totally play as an activist for pokemon rights

[@cyancat5451]

xSaraxMxNeffx i would relly like to see a wii u or NX game where you can do whatever you like in the pokemon world. the trainers around you will scale as you level up and you can start from any city. where you can join factions like team plasma and such and also actually have victory conditions besides winning the league. like maybe being a competition champion, type master, a gym leader or even leading a team.

[@xSaraxMxNeffx]

Cyan Cat so much yess to all of this

[@MChurvis]

Cyan Cat I've always dreamed of a Grand Theft Pokemon...

[@TheOobo]

Pokemon still has this issue. I ran into it a bunch recently playing pokemon X. It usually went something like this: Did you do this all by yourself? -yes Now, don't be egotistical! Did you do this all by yourself? (repeat until the player says no)

[@bummer6]

This concept has never been more clear than in the bureau: XCOM Declassified... A squad member was mortally wounded and I had a choice to either leave him behind or try to fight off a horde of aliens until help arrived, so I chose the second option... About 20 failed attempts later, I finally made it and my squad mate was saved, but when I got back to HQ and talked to people they said things like "I heard what happened to your friend... I'm so sorry for your loss". WTF?! I Saved that fucked and the game doesn't even acknowledge that he's alive?!

[@101jir]

That's terrible, but funny from a 3rd person view!

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

Oh man, reminds me of something like that in Chrono Trigger *Spoilers* V V V V V V After magus joined my party, I figured what the hell, lets go back to 1000 AD and march him into Guardia Castle. So I start talking to people and they're all just like "Great job defeating Magus" and such. While talking to Magus. Though in that case I just found it hilarious.

[@crono276]

Dapperghast Meowregard I think that point can be explained by saying most huamsn in 600 a.d. didn't know who/what Magus looked like.

[@dapperghastmeowregard]

Ken Zhang I was literally talking to the king. Pretty sure if Magus can walk right into his enemies HQ and ostensibly shove a scythe in their leader's neck because nobody knows what he looks like, then Humanity has bigger problems.

[@crono276]

That was just propaganda by the fiends/mystics to scare the humans. Magus' true goal was to kill Lavos, so he didn't care about the war much, unless you mention Cyrus. I'm not going to say he killed Cyrus in self defense, but context is important.

[@alisethera9349]

I dont remember the name, but there is this one game where you start at dinner and the rich person eating with you gets up, tells you to stay put and says he needs to do something. You're supossed to stand up and explore his house to start the adventure, but if you stay put long enough he comes back and your charater becomes best friends with the guy and live happily ever after, end of game.

[@GlitteryGecko]

Far Cry 4. Pagan Min, I think.

[@GlitteryGecko]

If you play thru the game properly you can basically get 3 endings with him. One is he asks you to sit down and eat with him again, or kill him then and there (he knows he is at your mercy.)

[@GlitteryGecko]

So you can shoot him there and then. Credits roll. Or eat with him and find out why he has had an interest in you and about your family history. He flies off in a helicopter leaving his riches there for you. Last "ending" is you can shoot his helicopter down after his spiel and loot his body and vehicle.

[@mxsdrago]

I think it was far cry 3? Or was it 4? Was there a fifth? I don't play far cry.

[@ArakkoaChronicles]

+Blueconroy You forgot to mention said rich guy is also a maniacal dictator and a tyrant who just forked a guy forced into said dinner party... which kinda colors your choice in what to do when asked to stay.

[@einootspork]

2:58 - 3:10 is still the best Extra Credits moment of all time.

[@thomas6617]

+Sporkaganza totaly agree

[@nemesisurvivorleon]

+Sporkaganza Really?

[@thomas6617]

what is better :D

[@TheBeevinator]

+thomas kersting Coke (insert flame war here)

[@nathanshlap]

+Sporkaganza The part where Allison threatens to erase Dan?

[@Genderkaiser]

One of the cleverest things I've seen in design is in Xenoblade. That game gives you EXP packages not only for beating enemies but also for exploring and finding areas. This does a multitude of things - it decreases potentially boring grinding, which in and of itself keeps the combat feeling fresh instead of a monotonous task, it gets rid of the negative space inherent in such a ginormous game world, and by varying the size of the reward the designers can put emphasis on how much more awesome finding a hidden secret is than simply finding the newest town centre. It's such a simple yet brilliant design idea.

[@Dracomasterthefirst]

I was going to say this!

[@CoxTH]

Toad Harbor in Mario Kart 8. Near the start, there's that barrier for the railroad. Normally it is closed, but when a train comes, it opens and it appears you could slip through. But instead of an awesome shortcut, you just get dragged away by Lakitu. That was quite a bummer, because I was pretty disappointed after I figured that out.

[@zoekoo6]

I rembered theat on à sertend Mario kart theare was à warp pipe only reatchibe bi drifing into à bomb car i dont now what hapand next

[@MistaSmith]

That's a good description of Elder Scrolls Online. There are so many things to explore that end in disappointment because it seems not even the game designers have been there.

[@saywhat2886]

+Emperor pussy pounder exactly one of the reasons skyrim and fallout new vegas were some of the worst games, so many bugs, so many flaws....couldnt even complete the main quest because of the bugs on skyrim, i surely hope fallout 4 is another fallout 3 and nothing else the crappy company made.

[@saywhat2886]

***** owned skyrim on pc and xbox, tried for the campaign twice on the pc and couldnt get around bugs even with save files, same with xbox... skyrim is a piece of untested crap

[@RonStrauss]

+MistaSmith ESO is such a failure in my eyes. It's amazing how many things they managed to ruin.

[@DragoonWarrior790]

+MistaSmith When he was giving that example of climbing the almost impossible mountain only to find nothing at the top the first thing that popped in my head was Skyrim. Great game, but that scenario fits perfectly.

[@mxsdrago]

+Ron Strauss Like what? I think ESO is good.

[@zackwheelhouse3214]

The Stanley Parable fixed this well. The play testers learned how to exit the window into whiteness so they added "At first Stanley assumed he had broken the map, until he heard this dialogue." which was a great surprise when I saw the blank area outside the window.

[@Bamboo_bazooka]

i tried explaining this to a friend of mine who does games design and his response was 'well that exists because designers cant predict everything' and i just wanted to slap him because he completely missed the point even after directing him here

[@MegaKaitouKID1412]

+Ethan Probert To a certain degree, I have to agree with your friend. Filling the possibilities you can think of and find in play-testing is essential, but game designers truly can't predict everything that thousands of people with a few hundred hours of free time each can collectively come up with. I mean, the video had a point about the player being disappointed when they appear to have a choice but they don't, but as for situations that fit that mountain climbing metaphor, they really can't predict all the mountains the player is going to try to climb. The smaller the game, the more possibilities I'd expect to be covered, but there's just no way to know it all.

[@MrAlplhaa]

Although to be fair, in specific case of "which mountains the players are going to try to climb" the answer is "all of them". Plus every high place in the game :)

[@penguinpingu1994]

This reminded me of the time on DLC quest where I ground my sword 10,000 times with the x button and got the message that it was probably better just to get the DLC to speed it up. At that point I questioned my normalcy.

[@Doublemonk0506]

If they added this small thing, then yes, you are normal

[@isocryd]

"You may also like X and Y episode"... Dude, I like them all. No need for the annotation.

[@GFCOLCQuote]

That whole "having something on top of the mountain" bit really reminded me of tower of guns. That game was amazing, and it even had a thing where you could jump to the top of the actual tower, if you had enough shit on your character where you could jump that high and for that long, and at the top there was a little chat bubble with the developer going "Wait, what?!" and there were little power-ups up there. Sure, it didn't matter because at that point you were probably ungodly, but it was still there and it made you feel like it mattered so much more. I feel like, with most games, they didn't actually MEAN for you to get up there, it's just the bumps in the models, when used in the right way, can allow such things. The developers, and/or playtesters, never saw them or could never get up there themselves due to either a lack of skill, patience, or what have you. Still, though, I always agree that things like that in games, having even a simple nod to the player who manages to struggle and squirm his/her way into a spot they weren't supposed to be in, even if you didn't believe anyone COULD get there is just... it really makes you explode with pride and joy. It's like what would the first kid would have felt like if he managed to actually use strength on the truck to get mew (Even though that rumor is false). Granted, in that case the prize would have been much to big, but simply to have a sign on the truck that said "How did this truck get here? How did I get here?!" would have made a world of difference.

[@Martin-fh9lv]

The biggest surprise i had was when playing some korean mmo that was ported the western marked. I had found this waterfall and it looked like i could scale it, I accepted the challenge and slowly moved my way up. I even got a achievement at the top. I was about to move back down when i noticed that i could scale even further up. Again I, very slowly, made my way up the second half of the waterfall. finally at the top the area looked a bit unfinished but the view was amazing. Suddenly an achievement poped up, but what blew me away was that this achievmentwas in korean. Apparently i had found something even the translators either missed or didnt bothered to translate because obviously no one would get this far. I never felt that good about an easter egg.

[@jadefae]

Sick. That would have been very rewarding

[@iyzeekiil]

This is basically Metroid in a nutshell, it rewards you for going out of your way and trying something new, something out of bounds and even game breaking, and it rewards you with new powerups, heath tanks and missiles

[@SyphistPrime]

Even in the linear game, Metroid Fusion, if you sequence break at the 1 part you can, you are rewarded with a secret dialogue. I actually saw this message for myself on the actual cartridge. (Not via shinesparking though, I am not that skilled)

[@NickTuring]

But isn't having the message "Clementime will remember this" actually *creating* negative possibility space? I honestly felt horribly let down by TWD's faux-choices.

[@Zadamanim]

+Nick Turing It's like a magic trick, it won't be entertaining if you can see through the illusions. :P

[@RonStrauss]

+Zadamanim It's a one trick pony. Season 2 served almost no purpose.

[@SianaGearz]

+Nick Turing Yes, i actually find LiS approach better. Stop beating into your head that what you did is important, you can undo everything until you're happy with the consequences you expect, and the consequences, they may be mild, but because the game doesn't overpromise, it also doesn't underdeliver. Just serves to make the conversations a bit less stilted as time goes rather than do something earth shattering, good enough i think.

[@exodore2000]

+Nick Turing Even worse when you realize that nothing you do can keep that character from dying. I seen through the illusion of choice fairly early.

[@DeathnoteBB]

Yeah I hate when games lie to you like that. Makes every choice terribly stressful, when half don’t even matter.

[@JoshForeman]

When I build maps for Guild Wars 2 I'll get world out bugs near the end of my deadline. There's no time to request new content to put in there, so I have a choice whether to close off the rout, or tweak it a bit so there's a cool place to get to. This lead me to make a small gold coin prop. It has no value and can't be interacted with, but I put it in these nooks and crannies as a way to say: "Good job. You're clever and an explorer, and I, as a game developer appreciate that." It's not an ideal way to fill the Space, but it's what I can pull off on my own when we're supposed to be "pencils down".

[@aWinterCrow]

I felt ripped off by most of Telltale's. They tell you choices matter and repeat it all over, but you easily see it's not the case. I don't think they're the best example on how to do this properly.

[@daviddorsey6460]

aWinterCrow Tales from the Borderlands actually addressed this and it felt so good

[@covanentsbane]

My favorite game that hit this recently for me was Undertale. I wasn't even aware there was negative possibility space in some of the places it filled.

[@SatsumaDev]

+Willo Wisp This. This.

[@rossmallo]

+Willo Wisp Agreed entirely. Out of the dozens of things I thought of to try and trick the game, I think only ONE time the game has had NPS. Honestly though? That almost makes it better - This is the ONE time that I've seen the playerbase outwit Toby. Makes it almost seem like an accomplishment than a failing. Spoilers: If you can speedrun the hell out of Mettaton EX to the point where you can spare him before his arms and legs fall off, his arms and legs are still missing on the after-battle sprite.

[@peanutinc.7670]

+rossmallo I think it's because his legs and arms retract when he's out of power. I can't find any other explanation.

[@afiqzul-star8768]

+LightningIgnitor if you can explain why you hate it, you can be taken more seriously than hipster that didn't even play thr game.

[@brandonjslea1562]

Even if you dont enjoy the game and can justify it as bad (unlikley), to call the whole game bad is still a massive understatement.

[@LawnPygmy]

I love all the little critters running around in your shows.

[@NiesamowiteWszystko]

It reminds me of beating the Dungeon Guardian in Terraria (an enemy with 9999 health, 9999 dmg and 9999 defence). It was meant to be an impossible fight, but when one youtuber made it, developers actuallt aded unique loot to this mob.

[@NiesamowiteWszystko]

Under Doge Check out "Yrmir", he has a pre-1.1 video of him beating the Dungeon Guardian. The trick is to run away with the gravity potion and shot him with the mini/megashark 9999 times.

[@IslanKleinknecht]

"Clementine will remember this" Saw a similar message in the demo for Wolf Among Us. If anything, it made me suspicious of the game, and finding out that "no, it doesn't make any difference" made me feel like the game was lying to me, and pretty much put the rest of its potential choices down the crapper before I even got to them.

[@rayanderson5797]

Wolf among us was responsible for one the biggest disappointments in this regard. At one point I made the opposite choice from what I'd been intending to. Even though I'd resolved never to reload and accept whatever consequences I received, I was annoyed that I had made the wrong choice, so I made an exception... only to find out that the same thing happened regardless of what you picked.

[@waterlubber]

Stanley Parable in a nutshell.

[@CharTheDude]

+waterlubber fire baby game

[@fiskfisk33]

+waterlubber "at first, stanley assumed he'd broken the map, until he heard this narration, and realized it was part of the games design all along"

[@REALSOLIDSNAKE]

Sometimes the reward of climbing a high cliff with amazing skills is the feat itself and the view we get of the scenario itself. Great video btw

[@08jackstuff]

The stanley parable is a GREAT example of how to get rid of negative possibility space, there are so many secrets in The stanley parable, and each one feels super satisfying.

[@Lulink013]

I remember dialogs that looped on themselves if you gave the wrong answer like you suddenly decided not to care for the world's sake... Maybe it's a void that needed to be filled, but it forced you to role-play more.

[@sdrawkcab_emanresu]

Zelda OOT😂

[@SSBBPOKEFAN]

Fire Emblem does this quite nicely with certain boss' dialogue. Have a specific character engage them, and those characters have a short conversation before combat. Small, but powerful.

[@joshroomwymbsy312]

SSBBPOKEFAN Ha, I remember that. I would sometimes even find myself compromising my strategy just so I could have, say, Glen talk to Valter in the final fight with him. Never the smartest move strategically but wonderfully satisfying narratively.

[@kentknightofcaelin4537]

@@joshroomwymbsy312 how would you do that? Glen is an NPC.

[@rideroundandstuff]

I started Limbo by running to the left thinking "haha, let's see what happens" and all of a sudden an achievement appeared. So awesome.

[@DJ_Drakon]

When I first found you guys less than a year ago...I went on a three day binge and watched every single episode...Every. Single. One...You guys are awesome, and I learn a lot from you guys. Keep doing what you do.

[@rayanderson5797]

One of my favorite positive examples of this is in Conan: Exiles. There's this huge rocky peak, two actually, shaped like a pair of horns. If you climb one of them, which is quite difficult, even perhaps impossible at a lower level, you'll be rewarded by meeting a man at the top who teaches you how to make special boots and gloves for climbing. Somewhat diminished, since I was just shown where he was by another player, but still would have been really cool if I'd discovered him on my own.

[@LoganDray7]

"Design for the player, not for the screen" I don't know why, but that line just struck me something fierce.

[@BlueAmpharos]

I like the choice creatures, I want to pet one. ^^

[@JeremyEr10]

If Extra Credit sold plushies of these creatures, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one xD

[@eratonysiad2582]

I climbed a mountain whilst playing WoW. There was this small camp, but I didn't think much of it. When I started walking from Khaz Modan to Stormwind through the mountains, eventually I fell in the ocean, and then I eventually stumbled upon some hidden docks. That was awesome.

[@ArakkoaChronicles]

Reminds me of how WoW used to be, where your reward for exploration was the fatigue bar and getting that ledge patched out in a month. "Because you weren't supposed to get up there because we kinda forgot to texture it." Now they stick treasure chests and squawk like that everywhere. I used to climb odd ledges before it was cool. I used to climb them just for the rare, forbidden view.

[@Lulink013]

I remember reaching a place I wasn't supposed to go to in Lego City Undercover, knowing that I wouldn't get anything from it as it was a huge hoist that had a twin with actual objectives to complete on it. It was made of slippery surface and stuff that clearly told the player "stop right there, it's pointless" but I passed through it knowing that I would only do it one time for the challenge. Up there, there was nothing, of course, but I filled the void myself by posting a screenshot on miiverse challenging other guys to reach the place. i didn't get a lot of attention, but it made me felt like I was the only player to overcome that desperate challenge.

[@Lulink013]

***** There was actually a lady with a genetic anomaly that kept her cells alive long after her death. they are used for experiments and stuff since it's easy to produce more.

[@urahara64360]

This reminds me of bioshock infinite where they give you lots of choices for things that ultimately don't matter

[@Andy3022]

That's the central theme of the game.

[@svwa161994]

Abigail Ottologist no matter what decision you made it will remain the same ?

[@ihategooglepolicies6297]

Steve Verduzco Pretty much...at least infinite was that way story wise and some other elements which is exactly why it was a dumb game STORY WISE...good gameplay

[@svwa161994]

ihategoo glepolicies but I was talking about it as is central theme

[@ihategooglepolicies6297]

Steve Verduzco I know I am about to make myself look stupid and you are going to dismiss this, but yes, the theme and the story are the same thing (not definition wise), but in this special circumstance of bioshock where its actually underdeveloped and underthought as a story. Enter a room, kill everybody, rinse and repeat, rescue elizabeth, she gets taken away, rinse and repeat, the entire story, without spoiling, revolves around not being about to change the events set in motion. As much as I am bashing the game, I liked the combat so don't get offended. It has also been a good amount of time since I last played it so I just remember what my ending thoughts were and do not have the memory to detail EVERY reason why I felt the way I did.

[@einargs]

This is really useful stuff, not just for game design but also for writing in general. Thinking about how to manage expectations like this is a really useful tool, and I'm glad I got introduced to it.

[@richardhutnik]

I found this video to be one of the most significant defense of the use of points, badges and leaderboards, in regards to gamification. Kudos. I will be getting the word out. This channel is excellent overall also.

[@aaron2718w]

probably my favorite example of this is skyrim with the notched pickax on top of the mountain. Also at the end before the your final fight you are asked "by what right do you have to enter this place" and depending on what side quests you did along the way you can answer different ways like by right of blood or honor or things like that and that is what made the game so amazing to me.

[@franciscocarvalho6184]

I enjoyed this one a lot, I experience this CONSTANTLY while playing and it's a design element I never gave much thought about while designing.

[@Aeluron]

This video is probably why I love Rpgs so much. I feel like I'm having an affect on the narrative. That just...is awesome.

[@Gruvest]

To anybody visiting this video in 2018+, Super Mario odyssey did this SO well. They would put massive piles of coins (which weren't incredibly meaningful to players good enough to reach them, anyway) in really hard to reach places, just so that someone who explored up there wouldn't be disappointed. That was the first time I had thought about "negative possibility space" before I even knew what it was!

[@kasane1337]

I might be a few years late, but Prey actually did this very well. I remember a moment where I fought through an area and found some sort of water pipe, to later have some guy ask me to bring him a water pipe which I already had in my inventory. So I immediately gave him the object and he actually said "How do you already have that? You always seem to think ahead!". It was just one line of dialogue, but it felt so rewarding.

[@AwesomeKuriboh]

that ledge example reminded me of one time I found a rock dungeon in Cube World. I was pretty low climbing level, so I had to go back to town to talk to a trainer to get a high enough climbing skill to get up there. Took me like 10 minutes and like 7 tries, but I finally climbed it... just in time to see a bunch of npcs kill the boss.

[@ThePCguy17]

Maybe in the future (and by that i mean in a really long time, since updates seem to be about a year apart or more for this game) those rocks will either be easier to climb or more rewarding.

[@linky0064]

In Zineth, there is a high up ledge with a message on the wall that reads 'There is something awesome up here'. If you go up a ramp and jump onto the ledge, you can read a message on the floor saying 'It's you, your awesome!'. Just that one sentence in conjunction with the sign saying that something awesome is there makes you feel like a boss, like you did something that no one else would.

[@brandomichaelson4094]

Poor Clementine. That was so incredibly funny, my eyes are watering.

[@Danmarinja]

I've noticed how Punch Out! has so many little ways to reward the player. Take, for instance, the fight against Bald Bull. Seeing him charge at you would make you instinctively dodge or block, but if the player is bold enough and attacks the moment he's in front of the player, you can knock him on the floor instantly. Or those times when you would catch a fighter at the right time and get a Star Punch.

[@cupriferouscatalyst3708]

+DiscoClam i loved finding different ways to get the stars

[@Tomswift1234]

I think The Stanley Parable, filled the void of Negative Possibility Space very well.

[@andrew_cunningham]

Hmm, the fire pentagram room in The Binding of Isaac still doesn't react to the Book of Belial... Step up your game, Ed!

[@majorsmask]

my favorite example of good level design (filling the negative possibility space) is in metroid fusion. after opening the security doors you can sequence break (by not obtaining the diffusion missiles before getting back to the navigation room) by performing a series of difficult shinesparks. upon reaching the navigation room there's a secret message which even says something along the lines of "I wonder how many players will see this message"

[@pringlepop-po2ss]

i love her style in storytelling. very talented

[@SonicOverlordUK]

I remember climbing up a mountain in LEGO Island 2 back in the day and then sliding down to what looked like a gap for me to stand on, and I still to this day feel nostalgia for the wormhole which took you to speak to the developers showing how they made the game.

[@Telomerase9]

Nintendo has recently nailed filling negative possibility space in Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey. There's always something in the far corners and high peaks of those worlds. And the games are mostly built around the idea that a player will inherently want to reach these places. Heck, things like Death Mountain and Hyrule Castle are these huge signposts that are hyped up because of their mere existence, and the game handles them perfectly by filling in that possibility and dream.

[@PaoloStaMaria-qo3we]

I came here from Vechs' channel, and wow, this series is amazing! keep up the good work :3

[@kt-kr4gm]

Happened to me with Two Worlds II(I think?). After 2hours of traversing the sea and tedious mountain humping, I finally got to the top of that one distant castle over the sea, but suddenly a new chapter loaded, and when I was finished with the area, it wouldn't let me go back to the previous chapter in order to continue the story.. so my thirst for exploration essentially broke the game.

[@ImperfectWeapons]

Metroid games are always the greatest at doing this. Absolutely brilliant.

[@Showsni]

SputnikSkull7 Yeah, especially the bit in Fusion where you can use the Shinespark to get back to the Navigation room when you're not supposed to.

[@theboodler6856]

I like how this is used in Mario Odyssey, where basically ANYWHERE you can get your little shoes on, there's probably a pile of coins waiting there.

[@brendonestridge8771]

I occasionally do that in other video games. I kind of get frustrated if there is nothing there, but I like the feeling of getting somewhere no one intended you to go to.

[@Lelines0]

I remember Rain had this problem. There were so many paths that just lead to dead ends with nothing that told you what the correct path was except blind luck.

[@IndianaJaws]

It's funny that you mention Vechs in a video about possibilities, When Vechs put this treasure chest on top of the Cenote - he was filling this negative possibility space. He usually throws around these chests to fulfill whatever expectation the player holded by getting to this tight place, and he does it great.

[@charmquark7514]

I will probably never forget the evening when a friend and I accidentally found our first jump and run puzzle in guild wars 2, and spent the whole night figuring out where to go and what steps to make to get to that loot + achievement

[@yellowbeans01]

The original Borderlands is a good example of the utilization of possibility space. There were many rooftops, etc. that didn't have a clear way up, but were still accessible. Not everyone of those space had a chest, but some did. Making the player want to explore more

[@a-blivvy-yus]

+yellowbeans01 I think this is the REAL key for a lot of games... don't make every climbable mountain, every little hole in the wall, and every hard-to-find location an event the game marks. But scatter enough little hidden *THINGS* to make the players who do a little exploration take note, and realise "if I explore, I can find *MORE THINGS* like this!" and they'll explore, and find lots of cool and interesting places, but there won't be *THINGS* in all of them. Striking the right balance will depend on the game, of course (as with so many other things).

[@kvt-dev]

Is it just me, or is the two-headed Choice creature absurdly cute? I mean just AWW *shrivels in happiness*

[@swanbrown]

I used to play galactic civilizations alot. at one point when I had gotten a bunch of ships in position, and the next turn, I was planning to start invading a planet, I opened the diplomacy dialogue, and the representative just said something along the lines of "I'm not stupid, so drop the act and attack us already". it really deepened the game for me having confirmation that the AI was looking at more than just the last couple turns of play.

[@ObezzedRepia17]

Definitely. Sometimes I try to get to areas in games that I'm not supposed to go because it help's me understand some of the rules and techniques the designers placed into the game. It shows me how they made it.

[@xrenynthemusicmage6422]

This reminds me of the awsome time I horseclimbed upon the highest mountain in Enderal and made it across some rockbridge with distorted collision to reach the castle on top of it easier without having to take the long way around I didn't even figure out at this point. Althouth it may not have been intended but I just felt sooo good finding out my dangerous glitching actually worked out!

[@Aerial290]

Thanks a lot for this series on choice, it was really interesting especially this last one. I had no idea that is how developers go about maintaining the illusion of choice.

[@KaX321]

I still remember my first minutes in the witcher 3: -So, this is a dream- -I wonder if i can die in the tutorial...- :Jumps of the balcony: :Dies: Amazing.

[@swisscheesy]

While all videos of yours being interesting, this one's very intriguing and something that I've noticed myself. I'll definitely pay attention to this when I manage to whip up a fitting game at some point!

[@KellySmith555]

I think this is exactly why Oblivion will always be one of my favorite games ever. I was really used to games were props and items were literally worthless things glued to table tops. But the first time I played Oblivion I had no expectations. It was a used game I bought on a whim. But the moment I could pick up everything I want crazy. I was giggling and freaking out. I lost my sh*t. Still to this day whenever I play an Elder Scrolls game I do it to steal things. Just...steal thing, to see if I can. Whenever I play other games I always get a little disspointed that I can't pick everything up. Once you go Elder Scrolls you can't go back.

[@thehorror2]

I honestly think that they added Fus Ro Da to Skyrim specifically so people could knock stuff off of tables.

[@keltzar1]

Have you played Half Life 2? While you may not be able to steal everything you can pick up most objects, even the little bits of objects left over from explosions.

[@puckthewildjoker]

Shadow of the Colossus had a great example of rewarding exploration, with a secret garden at the top of the shrine. It was eventually turned into a Trophy in the HD rerelease, but it originally allowed Wander to reset his stats somewhat.

[@Tcr810XP]

I like that it'll actually comment on your last play through. like, he first time i stood in the broom closet for a while, and the next time I walked in it say something along the line of "Oh hell no, we are not going through that again"

[@gene8447]

It's like... every bethesda game ever. "Feel free to explor- oh wait wait NO! No... sorry. Not there. You'll mess with the storyline... What? Oh, that mountain up there? Well duh, of course we had to put in mountains. Yeah I mean... you can climb it, but... why would you? It's not like you're a human with natural curiosity or anything oh crap you are and we totally left you nothing to go find."

[@dmas7749]

Oh, Bethesda...

[@Olors64]

The comment above yours though...

[@alexanderblixt1221]

+Rambard There is though, you get the Notched Pickaxe

[@Shadowling]

In the even older not-so-linear FPS games like Doom it was all about the secrets. The stuff you found in secrets often made your day a whole lot better. Medkits, armour, rare ammo for certain guns and sometimes even a new gun some levels before you'd otherwise get it - it encouraged you to actively look for all of the secrets in a level. At the end of the level you'd also get a little breakdown of how you did, including the percentage/number of secrets you found.

[@suprtroopr1028]

Great concept, but I feel in the aspect of exploration, some negative space is nessisary to make the world feel alive. Not every room or mountain is going to have somthing in it or on it, weather in game or in real life. Finding a proper balance of empty space to usable space can make a game feel much larger. Games lile dark souls and fallout have this negative space, and their worlds feel much bigger because of it. One simply can't string together only areas that have a purpose, not even dungeon crawlers do that. its all about balance

[@CalenCarabajal90]

suprtroopr1028 I had this exact thought recently while playing Fallout 3, and agree with you 100%. Many rooms you'll find throughout the world have zero "loot "whatsoever -- not even the miscellaneous items often skipped. When I first came across a room like this, I thought "what a bummer, there's NOTHING in here." Then, I realized how much more expansive and real that made the game feel -- especially when you include rooms that just have miscellaneous items you may not need. When every single area is filled with content (be it narrative or obtainable items), then you never get the feeling of discovery at all. With the right balance, each new bit of content that you find is actually engaging and rewarding, and evokes a real sense of discovery.

[@GideonGleeful95]

suprtroopr1028 Agreed, it's definitely about balance. Some chests ibn Skyrim have basically nothing in, some have a few pieces of gold, others have some rare enchanted item. Generally the ones that are harder to get to have more and better stuff, but it's a trend, not a rule, and some deviation from that trend makes the world feel more realistic.

[@jadefae]

Reward should be proportional to skill required I think. Not every room should have loot, but every tall mountain top should at least give xp

[@Dexor157]

One Glaring issue i found was in SC2;HoTS, at the 2nd or so mission, Nova mentions maybe if you helped her earlier she would help you now, but i didn't so she abandoned my character to die. wanting to find a better way to complete the mission, i went back, redid the ENTIRE SC2 campaign, changed my choices in the Tosh vs Nova mission, then restarted the HoTS campaign. Expecting some extra mission or something, Nova pretty much said "thanks for being nice and all, but i hate you anyways. BYE" after which i quit HoTS for about a month or so in rage.

[@Dexor157]

No problem, but i havent finished the entire HoTS campaign yet so there may still be something, but i find it quite unlikely. Im already past Zurvan levels, no spoilers hopefully there

[@connorconnor2421]

I once explored the peak of possibility for getting to the top of Rolling Ride Run in SM3DW. I used obscure techniques. I got to a very high ledge. My reward? Birds. 3 birds that flew away when I got there. I accepted the reward.

[@TrevorLentz]

00:48 I've experienced this several time LOL good times :D

[@TheMayorofSpace]

nice choice for the outro music being an umbreon themed remix you know with it being a dark type and all

[@ahouyearno]

nerdgasmed at the papers,please screen, which got to know through this series games you may not have played. You guys are awesome.

[@Jiraton]

Many thanks for this series of insights about choice. I find it quite useful in the interactive shorts stories I'm writing.

[@zachanikwano]

Reminds me a lot of Rune Factory 4. It's a Harvest Moon/Animal Crossing/Final Fantasy hybrid of a game. You farm, you socialize, and you fight monsters. Building relationships with the members of the town is one of the core elements of the game. It's your choice to strengthen your ties with any character -- or at least it seemed to be. But, the since the start of the game it's implied that you're super tight with the deity dragon, Ventuswill. It was not your choice, nor realistic. She did you a few favors, and suddenly your character acts like they've been pals since birth. Nevermind your character is amnesic and just met this dragon, but come on! *Spoiler for Rune Factory 4, I guess?* Then Ventuswill dies at the end of the second arc of the game. Besides the forced companionship, it's pretty emotional, sure. Everyday her room lays bare, to remind you the cost of the peace you fought for. But the writers just couldn't commit. They included a final dungeon, final quest to bring Ventuswill back. Difficulty spike is through the freaking roof, and after you suffer for so long, the payoff is pathetic. No trumpets, no partying, no crazy-happy villagers, no acknowledgment for reviving their DEAD FRIEND. Just, "Thanks or whatever. Back to the grind!"

[@abysspect]

Seen an interesting example of this in Archeage. The game gives you a lot of movement capabilities, especially for an MMO. You have multiple jumps, gliders, mounts, abilities and the like. If there's an area in the game that isn't explicitly blocked off on the map, then you can get to it. And almost all the time, you'll get little achievements for this, like "Climbed the Dewstone Spire". They don't do anything, but they make the world feel a lot more complete.

[@jetkirby]

loved this video, ive seen a few of your videos over the last few days, subbed for this video

[@pirat87pl]

This makes perfect sense and I love the feeling of finding a secret in a game. What I think is even more awesome is finding what you WEREN'T supposed to be. When you 'beat' the designer. The stuff speedrunners do to games, especially the ones not designed with speedrunning in mind. That's sometimes the biggest reward in itself. I think that having SOME of this 'negative possibility space' is not that bad. I find that open world games often fall into the trap of not having anything that is not quest related.The Elder Scrolls series or GTA games are the prime example of this. There's basically no building, cave or anything that stands out from the background that doesn't have a purpose in some quest or has a secret related to it. It makes the world feel artificial. Finding something cool that is there just for the sake of it is near impossible.

[@RocketsQuintupled]

The best example of filling the Negative Possibility Space was in Halo 2. In the new Mombasa (I think part 1) if you could jack a Banshee then get that up to the top of a bridge you could get a scarab gun (it basically shoots plasma nukes).

[@cool140000]

The original Halo trilogy is a shining example of this. "Escaping" the level was actually expected of you if you wanted to get all the skulls, especially the mythic ones in the final Halo 3 DLC.

[@Octanis0]

Essentially, 'the dev team thinks of everything' on tv-tropes.

[@Disasterclese]

When this started I immediately thought of that sign in GTA. I still remember telling my brother to crash some cars into the wall to make a ramp, and how we both yelled when we saw the sign. "No way!!" You're exactly right about those moments.

[@NeonStorm5]

Rift rewarded exploration very well, they had hidden chests with rare loot inside in places that most people wouldn't think to go. There was one time I was outside a mine where I noticed there was a sword on top of a tall rickety scaffold, so I spent a long time figuring out how to get up there. When I succeeded, I was rewarded with a realm first achievement and some loot, basically exactly what was described at 1:09 in the video.

[@giraton1]

I've had one experience that goes right against this. In the Stanley Parable, nearly everything you do works off this principle. Now some players would know that there is a chair that you can get out of bounds where an ending is hidden, it's in one of the first rooms. However, there is a similar chair in the monitor room. You can still walk on this chair and yet again go out of bounds into the giant pit bellow. When I found this with the only guide I had being I was trying to trigger the ending of getting out of bounds and I was confused on which room it was in, I fell in and found...nothing. Yet because that game enforced the idea that the designer knew pretty much everything you could do in that game, the fact the game didn't react was more rewarding than it would have been, because I knew this was something that not many people, or maybe even nobody at all, has found before. The game not reacting was a reward because if there was an ending to it, it would shoot down the fact that I found this by myself. I later went down there again with the disco secret on, fun times.

[@sylentlight6771]

The first part of this video made me think of Wildstar. There are SO many MMORPG's that have the high mountains and vantage points that many of us just feel compelled to climb.. Just because. Well, Wildstar went and put "paths" in as almost like a secondary class/quest line idea and one of these is "explorer" where it actually challenges you to reach certain seemingly impossible places or see if you can simply reach point A to point B in the fastest time. It was kinda like they took the existing terrain and said "hmm... We put a lot of effort into this.. What else ca we do with it?" And they delivered =)

[@Elemenopi23]

Was just playing RIFT the other day and climbed a huge mountain rather than go around it to get to a waypoint where a quest ended, and there was a chest just sitting up there. When I opened it, blue (rare) chest armor dropped, and I also got an explorer award. This is the kind of stuff that good game designers do which relates to this video.

[@alljammedup6781]

The negative possibility blob is SO CUTE!

[@twistedlight9750]

One of my favorite examples of this was in Descent: Freespace. At one point in the campaign, you encounter enemies with vastly superior tech to you, and seems impervious to your weapons. You can't track them well, they hit like a freight train, and even the debriefing states that in all sightings of them, not one has been taken out. ...but, if you DO manage to take one of them out, the debriefing changes to state that you've drastically boosted morale of the entire fleet. You've proven that they can crash and burn, that they're not immortal. You are the one who says "If it bleeds, we can kill it."