Neil deGrasse Tyson & Malcolm Gladwell - AI, Autonomous Vehicles, and Race - Oh my!

How do self-driving cars change our psychology and do they solve The Trolley Problem? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Chuck Nice philosophize about science’s role in society with prolific author Malcolm Gladwell. What’s the best way for scientists to communicate with the public?
Learn about Malcolm’s new book, The Bomber Mafia (amzn.to/30JnKSo), and about incorporating science into writing. Should every scientist also be a science communicator? Should all areas of science be made accessible to the public? We debate the popularity of Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time (amzn.to/32hVDu2) and the role of pseudoscience in American science history. As a society, are we pulling away from scientific literacy? We talk about Malcolm’s mother growing up in Jamaica and why he loves the city of Atlanta.
Neil and Malcolm compare notes about school growing up and discuss demographic disparities in school suspensions. Malcolm breaks down the concept of his new book about the quest to create accurate bombing in the second world war. Discover General Curtis LeMay and why he is one of the deadliest people in human history. You’ll also learn… how to make a mini firestorm on a birthday cake?
Why is Malcolm running in front of self-driving cars? We break down the changes in psychology between cars and pedestrians when it comes to autonomous vehicles. If the fear of an imperfect driver is removed, will pedestrians behave differently? Does the self-driving car revolution also hail in pedestrian anarchy? Should autonomous vehicles be less good at driving? Do self-driving cars have a trolley problem? Does programmer bias have the potential to put certain people more at risk of accidents? All that plus, find out the evolution of Malcolm’s hair.
Thanks to our Patrons Tobias Malmborg, Andy Pattinson, Adam Lenda, Naomi Martin, Johan Fredrik Oldervik, and Scott Heflen for supporting us this week.
NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free.
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About StarTalk:
Science meets pop culture on StarTalk! Astrophysicist & Hayden Planetarium director Neil deGrasse Tyson, his comic co-hosts, guest celebrities & scientists discuss astronomy, physics, and everything else about life in the universe. Keep Looking Up!
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[@JJs_playground]

Have Malcolm on more often. I like the way he tells stories it's very entertaining, the podcast felt like it was 10mins long, not an hour long.

[@midnightwatchman1]

I was working in Russia in a Siberian city named Samera, the people there have never seen a black person physically before. On the bus or in the market place they wanted to touch my skin. The strange thing was that they always commented that how smooth and wrinkle-free my skin felt

[@TrickOrRetreat]

Humans explore and survive. How tanned you are is not one of them.science is a tool like a hammer. 🤓😨😎

[@TheGoodcholesterol]

Same happened to cubans who were to Baku to study. People there had never seen a black person.

[@samautrey]

@@TrickOrRetreat that was the lowest iq thing I’ve ever read

[@TrickOrRetreat]

@@samautrey Then this must be your first time on the internet, welcome and embrace for impact 🤗😋

[@samautrey]

@@TrickOrRetreat that comment was somehow abhorrent yet intriguing at the same time. And to address your statement, I have been on the internet so much that I’d presume I’ve been on it longer than you.

[@surb02]

Have him on often please. He is delightful.

[@robpatty6062]

Agreed!!!! 😜😜

[@scottallencarr]

Not to sound (though I may be) pretentious but reading his stuff you feel it's where he belongs. There's clearly a reason Earth puts us where it does.

[@TrickOrRetreat]

Yeeeees please 🤗🎸

[@TrickOrRetreat]

@@scottallencarr what you say makes reason, but i feel there us more to it.

[@scottallencarr]

@@TrickOrRetreat Word to that. It's a simple reply I offer but I mean a lot by it. It's difficult, these anonymous interplaces. A man I believe was called Viktor Frankl wrote a great book about Man's Search For Meaning and, I think we see a lot of that in these places. Or I read too many books but I prefer to go with "nah, it's better to mean something" like he was pointing out.

[@dk-fk4xm]

The biggest lie of startalk is "I'm just gonna watch the first ten minutes then back to work."

[@TrickOrRetreat]

True 😂

[@moze_-]

Terrible idea lol.

[@LordPrometheous]

I'm supposed to be tryna find a car before this insurance rental runs out, but I keep focusing on this discussion.

[@anthonycraig274]

I wish I could learn as much from work as I do from star talk.

[@bisbonian1183]

Nailed it!

[@brettjohnson6807]

As a young man in the south during the 90's I decided to dye my hair green and I remember getting pulled over shortly thereafter and when I asked why I had been pulled over the officer literally said "I pulled you over because you have green hair, son." As a white kid from the south I had never experienced this before, but it opened my eyes to the level of laziness that we all use to make our daily decisions about everything. He proceeded to call in drug dogs to search my car because I clearly had some kind of illegal substance on me if I was crazy enough to have green hair.

[@thesoundsmith]

Well, DID ya? 😎 Remember, in the South an illegal substance includes a working mind...

[@Synathidy]

Wow, that's one bored cop. Nothing better to do for society than tracking down all the wicked green-haired youths? Psh.

[@47f0]

Yeah, a lot of Southern cops aren't very good at counting, and they never made it to the 4th amendment.

[@tbrowntracyj]

Gads!

[@schmoborama]

same for me with bleached white hair, 80's, SF bay area

[@Exonfang]

Outliers and the Tipping Point seriously changed my life, reading them as a kid. Cool to see Gladwell on the show!

[@sergiopedro4668]

Awesome episode. The way Neil and Chuck click naturally with Malcolm is truly special: enlightening and entertaining.

[@SL-vs7fs]

For the longest time I didn’t understand what Chuck brought to the table sitting next to Neil as a host, since he’s not a science guy. His wit and insights have grown on me.

[@evanvoss1380]

It was not until I watched episodes without Chuck that I realized how much I value him on the show.

[@mikeythomas9352]

I was also confused by the format when I first started watching the show. Now I think every scientist doing public work should have a comedic co-host. Might be hard to find one as clever and enthusiastic about science as Chuck, but it's certainly something to strive for.

[@rmm3803]

Still haven't made that transition. His brand of humor does nothing for me.

[@zaq_hack4987]

I love the "spend a year in Atlanta" idea. This goes back to something that even Mark Twain wrote about in "The Innocents Abroad," and how people were desperately in need of travel to places where they were the "outsider."

[@Felicat82]

This is a great idea, if you're well off enough to afford such a thing. I could never do this.

[@ibibiotoiayinklee3480]

@@Felicat82 nothing is absolute 💪🏽💪🏽💯

[@sunnyside9273]

It wakes you up! And just casual traveling in general wakes up your senses. You come back home & notice things you drove or walked by a million times. Traveling is necessary for open & healthy perspective.

[@hemmper]

@@Felicat82 I've heard you can actually have a job and earn money in Atlanta too.

[@thesoundsmith]

I spent one week in Atlanta, working 5 nights, going to an Art Blakey concert (segregated seating). But these days, thanks but no thanks.

[@dang1099]

I like most of your videos, but this discussion has to be one my favorites. Everything that was touched upon was super interesting and pretty enlightening, thank you Chuck, Neil, and especially Malcolm. Thank you.

[@dnothing23]

First time seeing Malcom on your podcast, and i absolutely love his personality and views on the things talked about. and the humor was on point. Would like to see more of Malcom, thanks!

[@markmadhukar9011]

My favourite Author + My Favourite Science Talk Show = Happiness

[@erikhendrickson59]

I feel like "fantastic guest" is my reply to every StarTalk episode. I'm really glad the show has branched out from discussing strictly astrophysics. The breadth of topics discussed is really amazing.

[@Syl-Vee]

Each one of you three is a beautiful soul. Thank you for this episode!

[@shawmeehan7201]

How am I now only seeing this?! I geeked out, flat out laughed my AO, and felt an injection of pure genius in one sitting. So wonderful to see Malcolm on Star Talk. 🎁

[@Cneph1964]

Admittedly, Chuck Nice is an excellent fit for this podcast. All his jokes, punchlines, and insights were on point. Great chemistry.

[@carolynstrover]

This is balm for the soul !! I so needed this . I love the smart , witty , charming , just very special discussion . Thank you so much 😊

[@nathanroberson]

6:00 I read that in high school. I ate it up. And I listen to Richard Feynman Cornell lecture series with joy. I am just a “normal” person without a formal college education. I’ve had a life long fascination with material science and went on to repair aircraft in the USAF.

[@NomadicBrian]

I was raised in a boy's home convent by Dominican nuns. Probably 70% Hispanic and 15 % black and 15% white. My mentor a counselor helped raise me and took care of me was black and often invited me to visit with his family. It was always interesting to go back to my family and hear racial remarks that left my mouth open in disbelief. Even more fun to introduce my black mentor and sort of big brother. The tension could be cut with a knife.

[@jennybrooks5887]

Maybe one of the first times I've felt proud to be from/currently living in Atlanta!

[@rogerwilco1777]

Eww

[@jennybrooks5887]

@@rogerwilco1777 👍👍

[@djlabs1975]

Notice the look of glee on Malcolm's when Neil completely skewers his anti-science conclusion 9:37... that's how a smart person looks and feels when they realize they missed something or were wrong. It's a joyful moment.

[@DouglasJMark]

Happiness is Neil, Chuck, and Malcolm together. Looking forward to more (to to read more @Gladwell.

[@isaackitone]

I thought Chuck was going to say, "Malcolm is in the middle of writing a book right now". Get it? Malcolm in the Middle? No?

[@scottallencarr]

Surely you and I were far from the only ones to notice!

[@SL-vs7fs]

@@scottallencarr true!

[@thepaperstaggering]

Nah.

[@locofoto75]

Totally 😂

[@garakjr]

Hey hey all you nerds out there!! Love these guys!

[@garakjr]

Btw for me, and I hope for you, NERD is a title I wear proudly!

[@Synthwave89]

My favorite people, all in one place.

[@FacesintheStone]

Yay!

[@sublimejourney3384]

@@Synthwave89 Likewise :)

[@justinmawi3745]

Being a med student in Africa, who's heard countless stories of African doctors who travel abroad only to realize they can only be offered jobs as nurses due to the colour of their skin, I believe Malcom's "Internal years abroad" would be useful.

[@MelodiousThunk]

@@PyscoNaturalist The UK's General Medical Council doesn't recognise all overseas medical qualifications. I'm not sure what proportion of African medical courses award qualifications that they do accept though.

[@47f0]

Not likely that it is based completely on color. There are probably more American trained Nigerian doctors in America than there are doctors in Nigeria. It has mostly to do with certification of other countries medical programs.

[@siroswaldfortitude5346]

@@MelodiousThunk you are spot on, and it is also a requirement that all non Brits have a fluent understanding of English and Must also be audible to patients. I have worked in the NHS for years and communication has been a problem with many workers regardless of skin colour.

[@Blue_3rd]

A fantastic episode! I look forward to Malcolm’s next visit.👍

[@johnatyoutube]

What a delightful conversation. I loved hearing about your life experiences. Please have Malcom back again. He's delightful as well a brilliant! You both are!

[@djlovetap2141]

Incredibly well done! I love the depth of your discussions and incredibly hilarious, unique, and articulate on a bunch of levels 🍕🍕🍕🍕

[@kikyoass]

My favorite author! Listen to his audiobooks….they sound just like him talking for hours. It’s calming, it’s thoughtful, love him

[@jrlmenezes1]

Great conversation, thanks

[@youtube2snoopy820]

I'm a tall White male. When I was a kid I was literally off the charts on the growth scale. My mother began warning me about being 'singled out for offenses' when I was a child, five or six years old. She said my very nature would attract attention that wouldn't always work in my favor, 'that's reality, deal with it'. I don't doubt that it's worse for tall Black male children - in a mixed race environment - but the unwanted and unjust negative attention is not unique to Black people. In a Black school with Black teachers I wonder if the same racial/height profiling takes place.

[@scapegoatiscariot2767]

Definitely like to see the three of you together again. Any topic would do.

[@tmeyer2022]

I always enjoy listening to Malcolm. I've read all but one of his books. He takes me down intellectual roads that lead me to places that I didn't know I wanted to journey to.

[@Earendel.l]

Such a great episode! I hope you always bring this incredible man back.

[@mrfoodarama]

Malcolm is a wonderful guest, intelligent, insightful and entertaining. Always love when he's on

[@ProProboscis]

One of the most interesting talks! Glad Malcolm went well.

[@Zitropat]

Thank you all three. I cracked up and learned simultaneously!

[@DaBlondDude]

ÔÔ Malcolm Gladwell on Startalk? :O Startalk is already one of the few I still watch despite KZbin's disgusting ad policy but I love Revisionist history and his books ... I'm geeking out. I recently finished "Talking to strangers" and loved every page. Interesting to suggest that self-driving cars will encourage bicycles but transportation and shipping will likely thus have to remain manual?

[@barandasdemir2275]

Thanks Neil and Chuck for guiding us through these times!

[@JuiceBoxScott]

Can't pass up a video of Malcolm, Neil, and Chuck. Love these guys! Always an interesting conversation that makes you think.

[@Madison..]

This was an awesome conversation. Thanks for sharing!

[@danielvermeer3363]

Anyone with electrifying hair seem to be crazy intelligent scientists

[@johnfarris6152]

👽It's a heat sink.👽

[@JackFrawley101]

He uses a van de graffe machine to dry his hair

[@smashmagnum9312]

Cut out the last word or two, and that statement remains true

[@danielvermeer3363]

@@smashmagnum9312 ha they always a crazy something 🙂🙂

[@iseriver3982]

He's a journalist, no? And got out witted by Mark ronson.

[@puffybooboo]

Love this podcast!!

[@colonelkurtz2269]

Malcolm's take on David and Goliath is brilliant. It's not as much of an under dog story as we believed.

[@starlessmystery6429]

Thank the stars for you Neil!! I really needed this today!!

[@ecospider5]

A brief history of time is one of my favorite books. I read it once and the listened to it all the way through twice in the car. I had 1 semester of college physics at the time.

[@marticiawall1569]

Was there a coupon in the book?

[@ecospider5]

No I got the tapes from the library.

[@justinpratt3462]

Another fun and educational podcast. Malcom Gladwell is an excellent guest.

[@hiddencloudjc]

As the only white kid in two different schools in New Orleans, I have a slightly different perspective. I always felt the outsider, so wanted to be black, yet the mirror told me no. It’s hard to be the outsider, yet I was never bullied, but recognized the teachers were nervous of me.

[@Danielle-zq7kb]

Man! I read Brief History of Time and did NOT get a coupon. I am a scientist, however. Love all of you and what each of you do!

[@aprilk3002]

Star Talk is a joy. I love reading the comments.It's so wonderful to know there are so many like-minded people out there!

[@dravreh]

Great chat! Loved Malcolms " Talking to Strangers" - i wonder how many got the "Driving miss Daisy" reference :-)

[@alicercharles]

Thank you for the show, your guest, Malcolm Gladwell and Chuck Nice.

[@webbtrekker534]

I grew up in the school systems in and around Seattle. (1950's and 1960's) I had the good fortune to attend both Jr High and High Schools that were probably the most balanced racially in the city. The only problems about who your friends were were the parents. I had no problem if my friend was Black, Filipino, Chinese, Japanese or some other race. But try and invite someone home is where the problems started. And it wasn't just my household. One of my cousins wanted to date a football and Basketball player. He was a great guy and was very smart and talented. Only problem he was Black. (He was actually lighter than Malcolm in skin tone) The fights at the dinner table were almost violent over the issue. It is the person who counts not their skin.

[@pelagica7616]

Great way to learn and have a really good time with these beautiful minds! By the way, I did the experiment with the birthday cake and it looked amazing how all the flames pointed to the center.

[@philmanning8697]

Running on the FDR drive? The man is insane. Traffic? Who cares. Doesn’t matter to a person, a special person like Malcolm. Oh, we’re all wealthy enough to have these things. Really? Guess who gets to drive these cars? The wealthy. Elite nonsense. Self driving cars are great. But the amount of resources to fill the world with these cars, just doesn’t exist unless you are fine putting it on the backs of the poor.

[@Nscarnaut]

One of the best star talks episodes!

[@LerrinB]

Favorite. Guest. Ever. The whole KZbin universe wants MORE MALCOLM!!

[@G3LOFY]

He's now my favorite guest. 😁

[@bruceechandler]

That was one of the best interviews I've ever watched. I enjoyed It immensely.

[@JohnSherwoodGuitar]

Great conversation - thank you for sharing!

[@Futuresolidsnake]

This is one of my favorite episodes for sure! 😃👍🏻👍🏻

[@brucecook502]

haha I just seen Malcolm on "Hot One's" eating spicy chicken wings. He beat those wings like they were nothing haha. So now both Neil and Malcolm have been on that show :-)

[@d.e.7467]

He was impressively unfazed.

[@nameforcomments4092]

Regarding the issue of driverless cars at night, they can use night vision and infrared, and heightened motion detection, as deemed beneficial. They have an enormous advantage over humans in that regard.

[@ojv6183]

The LiDAR / radar tech on the Zoox autonomous vehicle can even 'see' round corners, and up to 150m in all directions at the same time.

[@jasong9492]

So, I just want to say this: I read A Brief History of Time either my Senior year of High School or my Freshman year of college...and I understood it! I consider myself of an above average intelligence, but no where NEAR the education of a quantum physicist....maybe the statement by Malcom should just make me realize how much more intelligent I am than I thought. I even did a presentation...yeah it was my senior year of High School, AND in my astronomy class in college. I'm now a teacher's assistant at a therapeutic day school and I could not WISH for a better career.

[@hamster1zombie170]

Excellent show, great guest 👌🏽👌🏽

[@kennethharris3932]

2/3 of the way through, enjoying this thoroughly. I will say, owing to my studies in Electrical Engineering at Vanderbilt University, I followed Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" easliy, and it was incredible. There was only one theory / set of equations near the end I hadn't studied... it was the single best intellectual validation of my four years of toil, b/c I am in applied engineering (non-theoretical non-super-mathystuff).

[@acepilot1]

You can tell someone is a genius when they open their mouth and say they aren’t a genius, but then go on to explain things to the general population in a way only a genius could… True Geniuses are humble and don’t brag, but still get s**t done at that level, but when complimented they again respond by “I could do better”

[@msmith53]

YES!

[@soloflaco]

What happened to the other 8 hours? I could listen to them all day!!

[@airheart1]

Awesome show!!! 👏👏

[@katachlizma]

I think I learned more from this podcast than an entire year of highschool.

[@Evangq]

Being from Austin, hearing someone use an Alamo Drafthouse as a point of reference on STARTALK makes me feel all sorts of different things :')

[@whatareyoudoingoverthere1425]

Please...... I need Chuck in every episode he gives this show so much life!!

[@wthomas7955]

He gets on my nerves.

[@nayanpanchal39]

I like chuck then the other girl

[@sirkllr]

Found this by accident looking up a different video with Neal. This was a good find

[@sheldoncarpenter6291]

Fantastic! Malcolm Gladwell is such a fascinating guy

[@macjam100]

You guys were so enjoyable Quit picking on the angry Blackman. Chuck is the man keeping all this in perspective.

[@BdR76]

35:08 It says a lot about *American car culture* that even Malcolm Gladwell will talk at length about self-driving cars and never mention trains or public transport. Like, look at the old San Diego Stadium parking lot and compare it to the Amsterdam ArenA, what problem will self-driving cars solve exactly?

[@jeffhidalgo8457]

When listening to these men. I know humanity will be ok and become more. Cheers Jeff

[@kurtisca]

You guys are absolute Legends! Thanks for making our days smarter.

[@Chris-op7yt]

Havent got any of Malcolm's books. Can the bookshelf accommodate?

[@bi2u4787]

Amazing episode!

[@murasaki848]

That's why I bought A Brief History of Time on tape and listened to it over and over in the car. Eventually I did understand some of it... :D

[@colacurciolaw7745]

I salute your effort.

[@seasidescott]

No, the trolley problem wasn't answered by "the AI will stop the car". I've been in the situation where people ran out from opposite sides of the street from behind large vans at the same time (like to meet each other in the middle) with insufficient time and distance to stop or miss them both. One was maybe 10 yrs old and the other 16-ish. Fortunately I made eye contact with the teen who jumped back far enough for me to veer that way. I was going 15 mph when this happened, btw, on a street with speed limit 35 mph. I'd slowed because I saw the vans and people on sidewalk and insufficient visibility to track them. I'm very thankful that the teen was among the very few percent that could have assessed that situation and reacted correctly and not frozen in panic or oblivious on cell phone. My decision on which way to go was based on the eye contact and person to person recognition of their grasp of the situation - and mostly I was lucky. How is an AI going to deal with that? I only knew there were people there by the colors of their shoes, maybe 6-8 inches up from ground I could see underneath vehicles and they weren't moving until last moment.

[@crontemisto8994]

"It's about time we had a Black supervillain." Boy are you going to love [a certain comic book cinematic universe]'s latest casting choice!

[@Watchingthesim]

🇯🇲

[@TheAmateurPhilosopher]

i understood that reference

[@knightheaven8992]

We had black supervillains in the comics for a long time....

[@moonshoes11]

Unbreakable.

[@spongbobsquarepants3922]

Why does it matter what colour a character's skin is? This sounds exactly the same as: "It's about time we had a blue eyed supervillain. ". It doesn't make sense, and it trains us to think along the lines of race, and leads us to be more racist.

[@unichusettsofmassadversity9705]

Getting to know other cultures is a strange and wonderous experience! Teach the kids to enjoy the variety of nature's beauty! Good discussion.

[@danielpeck6269]

A Brief History of Time is how I ended up finding NDT. I loved reading his works and Isaac Asimov.

[@ajud]

Talking to strangers was a great book. Any other great recommendations from him

[@jennapenna0713]

Blink, outliers

[@brendaraymond8657]

I like all his books. But I really like his Revisionist History podcast. He touches on an enormous array of topics but usually reach into human psychology and sociology.

[@Bernardory]

“BLINK” is one of my most favorite books!

[@someelephant6268]

we needed more time. Like a 3hr pod would have been great. I felt like you had much more.

[@carlatteniese2]

This was so great, gentlemen. If more Americans-perhaps those from the dominant culture (and especially in uniform) could hear it.

[@An_Iron_God69420]

As a person who has read A brief History of time and understood it, firstly i didnt find a coupon, secondly its a facinating read, if youve learnt some astrophysics from Neil!

[@mikee2465]

Great guest.. great conversation.. great vid

[@johndittmer8488]

Dr. Tyson, your birthday cake analogy also works for the Christmas pyramids from Germany and Scandinavia. The hot air from rising the candles from outside concentrates toward the center and help move the blades.

[@pixelpusher3589]

I read 'a brief history of time'..... i have questions and i think that was the point I love this conversation

[@TheKingofkrypton]

Another question about the number of people in a hurry were how many were actually running late for something and how many were hurrying simply out of habit. A question on the cars detecting people of varying skin hues: Would a thermal camera help there, or is there too much noise in the environment? A question on the cars learning to not hit people of varying skin hues: Could we use simulated accidents of people of every size, shape, color, gait, etc. to teach the car not to hit any known human appearance and movement? That many simulated killings might also introduce the psychopathy that Mr. Nice referred to.

[@rashida60cb]

Greetings, Always interesting...I enjoy reading Malcom's books

[@BrianBattles]

I was telling people on my radio show in the 1970s and '80s that almost 100% of car accidents are caused by people being in a hurry or people not paying attention. Period.

[@tlamore]

Best best,, love it! Dude... learning and laughing.. love it, like love it..

[@jordanaethelric2614]

I remember stopping in a Burger King in Atlanta with my grandfather as a white kid from north Ga. I couldn't understand why everyone pretended like we weren't there as the clerks took everyone else's order. I could see my grandfather's face change as he said "We'll have to go somewheres else." I didn't realize until (probably years) later that it was because we were white and everyone else in the place was black. As a kid, skin color was nothing to me so I couldn't understand the situation at all.

[@MattIsntYoung]

Lately I wait to see Chuck or Matt as co-host before I like. Some are insufferable. Big thumbs up today👌

[@williamlathan6932]

Great show. The stories are quite familiar.

[@mickeybrumfield764]

The discussion brings to mind a topic that we have not herd of before what profession is not doing there part in pushing the envelope to the extent they should, the scientific community or the journalistic community.