Neuroscience on the Soul

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

Thanks for having me on, Aron. Super interesting conversation.

[@herbieshine1312]

Thank you Dr. Thompson and Aron Ra for this conversation. Really interesting to wake up to listen to.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

@@herbieshine1312 Thanks! Aron is always great to talk to. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

@Conon the Binarian "There's no such thing as a soul. It's just something they made up to scare kids, like the bogeyman or Michael Jackson"

[@tabularasa0606]

It was fascinating.

[@joshfloyd7755]

Since you're here... What is , in your opinion, the biological use for dmt? Beyond r.e.m sleep and dreams , I am confused as to what it's purpose is as a nuerochemical?

[@stephenhill8790]

I watched a documentary about 30 years ago about the brain, it covered epilepsy narcolepsy autism depression etc, but the one thing that amazed me was a woman who had her brain cut in half (extreme epilepsy) it was interesting to see how she started to develop separate personalities which caused problems as her left hand would chose a different dress to her right hand, because the left and right lobes could not talk to each other 🧐

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

I actually talked about the mind and split brain patients in my impromptu debate on mind body dualism. It's called "Neuroscientist debunks mind body dualism." Check it out!

[@lewid019]

Wow

[@alphaomega1351]

This is exactly why I got rid of my brain 🧠. 😶

[@brian1204]

@@alphaomega1351 you create a dichotomy where there is none. “You” don’t “have” a brain. You “are” your brain.

[@simongiles9749]

From what I recall about split brain patients from my subsidiary studies in psychology and neuroscience, the patients were also very good at coming up with "explanations" for why they were doing these things. But it's also possible to interrogate each half of the brain independently, using headphones or a divided field of view, then you can get one half the brain to select an object and ask the other half why they chose to do that and it's remarkable how the patient comes up with a plausible reason that they fully believe was their motivation. It's fascinating stuff.

[@metiusabt2581]

The realisation that we have a brain and that damage to it impairs or can impair our thinking and even our personality, was the last piece in my journey from being a personal (I can't know what others might figure out) agnostic atheist to a strong atheist way back in 1976 or -77. This was a really great conversation, with so much more details and references to research since then that it blows my mind! I'm really looking forward to the follow up!

[@ossiedunstan4419]

I am Anti Theist , when i here strong atheist, militarist atheist's, new atheist's, I LMFAO. I find it hilarious that atheist`s are succumbing to religious branding F`ing hilarious. Your either an atheist who is sitting on Pascals fence , or you are like me Anti Theist , we know their are not gods have never been any gods and never will be any gods. 65,000 years of my people`s godless civilisation and culture is more than enough evidence for me, the fact non of the gods have ever had any physical evidence as with their side kicks like jesus for christian, moses for jews and and the paedophile prophet for muslims haven`t got any credible evidence to support their existence outside the pages of ignorance they where written.

[@voxpopuli8132]

it is funny, because blind (from birth) people in clinical death with zero brainwaves can experience perfect sight, so obviously there is a soul, and after we die, we are restored from the defective qualities of our body. Watch: "The Latest Scientific Evidence of God - Fr Robert Spitzer at the Napa Institute Summer Conference" relatively recent, with the latest Science.

[@zecuse]

This new(?) camera is going crazy between slow mo and catch up!

[@I_suck-_-so_what]

I don't think it's the camera. It's his shitty texass connection.

[@zecuse]

@@I_suck-_-so_what His audio sounds consistent though. Internet problems would affect his whole system. That's why cutting video (freeing up bandwidth) can often fix choppy audio. His video also looks like it was skipping frames though even with his audio sounding normal.

[@sydnar347]

Oh thank you , it's not just me

[@ShawnPattonC]

This was really fascinating. The part about language being fundamental to our higher functions has made me ascribe moderately higher odds to the idea that, not our current language AI architectures, but one of the new architectures we'll upgrade to, might accidentally achieve some form of proto-awareness without us realizing it.

[@inyobill]

Yah, given that consciousness id not directly measurable (at least for the future that I can see), if an AI system becomes conscious, people probably won't know it.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

I don't buy it. Humans can convey complex meaning with humming and freeform sign (no actual sign grammar) perfectly fine if a bit limited in scope. Not to mention drawing 🖍.

[@inyobill]

@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana Language is can be pretty much any means of transmission of thought.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

@@inyobill Language on its own's definition: The principal method of human communication, consisting of words used in a structured and conventional way and conveyed by speech, writing, or gesture. => Vocabulary *and grammar.*

[@JGM0JGM]

I believe that for AI we need more than just the ability to use a language. I think the "inner dialogue" part makes the difference. Without an inner dialogue we cannot self-reflect and carry on what we consider essential tasks/aptitudes of being self-conscious. I mean, we can ascribe language functions to a machine, but if we don't ascribe it the ability carry on an inner dialogue, than consciousness will not be possible. I understand that a language is needed for that inner dialogue to take place; but, in my opinion, a machine having data on how to use language, like ChatGPT, doesn't make it conscious. So I it won't happen by accident, unless the ability to develop a sort of inner dialogue can spontaneously occur somehow. The problem is how do we create such inner dialogue in a machine? Seems tricky. I read somewhere that consciousness is linked to the total amount of simultaneous connections being made. So when studying other species, it is not the size of the brain that is important, it's the number of neurons (when studying our ancestors, size is relevant because we assume that our neurons have the same size as our ancestors', but it is different with other species, like birds who have tiny neurons). If we can develop a machine that works with billions of simultaneous connections between its "brain" part, then maybe "artificial" consciousness can be possible.

[@MrWylis]

Many of these concepts around machines and consciousness (and rights!) are wonderfully exposed and showcased in the Bicentennial Man by Isaac Asimov (published in 1976) and it is a brilliant story, a fabulous read. Enjoy it.

[@Donnerwamp]

The film with Robin Williams is also a nice watch in case one can't take the time to read a book or hasn't got the attention span to listen to an audiobook. It has its flaws, but I think it gets the message across.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

I definitely, we need to have the ethical discussion before a crisis point.

[@fantomx11]

The 3rd Season Star Trek TNG episode Measure of a Man is also good. My biggest concern is that we won't recognize consciousness when it happens.

[@AshGCG]

"Why will this not end . . .?" ha ha. A perfect ending, ironically.

[@KrisRogos]

Around 40:00, when Dr Chris was talking about language processing centres closing around ages 8-10, I was very curious about this. I had some English as a 2nd language tuition as a child, but it wasn't good, and I was far from fluent. I moved to the UK at 16, so past the period considered best to learn a language, I went from elementary level to fluent in a matter of months. I use English 90+% of the time a decade later, including all the "thinking" or "internal dialogue". I even have false memories, as in events that I know happened in my motherland, in my 1st language. I can only recall all participants speaking English, not in the original version (the rest of the memories is accurate, though, according to other witnesses and where they exist in the recordings). I love languages and learning others, hence the last 10%ish. I occasionally think of those, but most are in English, my 2nd language. I've done no investigation into it so far, but I hope one day to get involved with a study of some kind to try and understand what enabled me to learn it so well a decade after it was meant to be easy and why I am still finding learning my 3rd and 4th language easier than my peers.

[@kellydalstok8900]

I didn’t move to the UK, but I spent a couple of holidays in London being completely immersed in the language. The first time I was 15. I found it helped tremendously, plus I was also very motivated to learn English.

[@AronRa]

Fascinating.

[@samanthac8655]

Fascinating! Excellent interview. I never knew Corvids were song birds, so I guessed the same thing Aron did . Looking forward to part 2!

[@lawrence5117]

This was a very interesting discussion. More please, as you suggested. Thanks to you both.

[@waynegaffney8995]

Truly great conversation. Can't wait for follow up.

[@brian1204]

Excellent interview! The more science the better!

[@DouwedeJong]

This dude knows his stuff. As a casual follower of the cognitive sciences, for five years now, I have explored rather a wide range of ideas and I agree with Thompson. Many of these topics need to come to ahead now. There is just too much continuous disagreement on terms and definitions, while one faction accuse another of not making any success. Everybody has a critique and those that have working theories are too humble.

[@ossiedunstan4419]

Actual evidence stops arguing and disagreement's he has none.

[@Stephane-au-fil-de-la-vie1266]

Aron this is clearly a very interesting dialogue between two very interesting fellows Thanks a lot.

[@phantomstarsx9343]

Thanks for hosting the fascinating discussion Aron, it answered a lot of things I've always wondered about

[@BigBeaverMedia]

This was awesome. Thank you, Aron and Dr. Chris! Looking forward to the follow up!!

[@Kruppes_Mule]

Dr. Thompson was talking about his involvment in language studies and how we differ from other animals in that regard. I would love to see him talk about the recent discoveries around whales and how deep their language and culture seems to be and how they share it amongst each other.

[@JGM0JGM]

I believe the big advantage we have over other species is that we can accumulate knowledge by keeping records, so each generations doesn't start from scratch. Whales and other advanced mammals (and some birds, octopus, etc.) cannot "evolve" their level of consciousness because each generations is basically the same as its predecessors... Homo Sapiens Sapiens really started to grow when writing became complex enough that we could record more than just credit/debit information (early writing seems to be wholly concerned with trading information). When we started to keep track of processes and "how to" information, we started to grow. Just compare how fast civilisations develop between societies that had writing and those that didn't. Those who didn't were stagnant compared to those who had some sort of writing.

[@RhayvenBlood]

YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HELPFUL THIS WAS. I've had issues with processing language for a long time. Likely due to MS, but frankly, I don't remember when it first started. But like. I've spent the better part of a decade trying to figure out a way to explain it to other people, and getting frustrated every single time, because the way I process language and information feels so... different than how others do. The best I had gotten was getting to a point, with talking to my spouse and a few friends , of figuring out that "waiting area" in the brain, that people use to process what it is they're going to say before saying it. Like. I don't have that. And haven't for a long, long time. And it's been such a cause of argument with both friends and my spouse, because I wind up just saying shit, without any real delay, which winds up being hurtful. Esp considering, the way they see it, "Oh, you had to think of x before saying it" with x being something mean AF. Esp if I'm annoyed with them, or something akin to that. Which *for them* would def be the case. But I don't have that space of just... Processing language that I go through before talking. I don't really have it (at least not that I'm consciously aware of) for what others are saying either. It makes verbal communication really hard lol. Written communication is far easier, because the words are there for as long as I need to process it. BUT JUST. It has been an absolute challenge to figure out what the neuroscience processes behind it all are to be able to communicate to people what's going on, which has been a nightmare. It's made it difficult to process things in therapy, in relationships. In a lot of areas in life. Because getting people to understand what specifically was going on, to be able to work around it, was nigh on impossible. BUT JUST. HAVING THE PROCESS. HAVING THE THING. I FUCKING CAN NOW ;__; You have no idea how helpful that fully is >_< ...Really not what I was expecting when I clicked on the video BUT STILL. Still not really entirely sure how to *fully* explain it all, or understand it all myself. But I have friends that are far smarter and know more about this area of things that I can bounce ideas off now, knowing where to begin XP

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

Thanks for sharing your story, and I am sorry to hear how challenging it has been. Too many people are ignorant of how involved the brain is in language and don't appreciate the impact brain dysfunction can have on communication. It is a fascinating topic, and we learn more and more every day.

[@VidsnStuff]

I'm glad this video was able to help you understand yoursepf better! Never give up, I try to be as understanding as possible

[@laurajarrell6187]

Aron Ra! Thankyou, Thankyou for 'elevating' the conversation! And Dr. Chris Thompson wow. Never could someone like I, get to hear someone like you, so my stars, thankyou so much! Evolution has always seemed almost intuitive to me, seeing your videos on it, Aron, showed me the info I was missing. But the brain, and that feeling that we are 'stuck' behind our eyes, and even blind people feel that, I asked, lol, seems to make total sense with evolution. Not with a soul. Even when I was a believer, I hated the thought of being a 'soul'. Luckily I'm a reader, and, though old now, it has allowed me to love learning, though I left school at 15. I always admit, seems the more I learn, the more I don't know? LOL. I don't think of 'consciousness' as much more than the ability to know our own history. And that is why, I think, added to the ability to talk about it, is the driver of our inability to accept our death. It is, as you say Dr., amazingly complex, yet, in my opinion, amazingly simple. Electricity and chemicals? Well, maybe in reverse, lol. Great conversation, sorry I got excited! I'm going to listen again. Oh, one thing I've heard a neurologist, (not a researcher, a doctor at a Pain Clinic at WA State university, in Seattle) say, and I want to know if he was right, is that the only drugs/chemicals that can have an affect on us, are those that we make, produce, naturally in our body, in some form. I loved hearing you guys! Oh, and I want to make a sick joke about the stroke victim and it made them a maga politician. Ugh. Seriously though, dont we now know that the brain can 'rerout' , even heal, where we thought before it couldn't? Ok, I'll shut up. 😂👍💖💙🥰✌

[@arturopersenota]

"I don't think of 'consciousness' as much more than the ability to know our own history." - but that is kind of enough too: this requires you, in the present, a sovereign being, in control, as you can steer which future you will make for yourself, creating more memories. This is us - but in the meantime we can also create stuff, like music and various beautiful things which we appreciate. This is the 'real you' - your conscious awareness, consciousness, soul, whatever you call it. So which one is IT, the one who experiences and observes, or the stuff it observes? I think that is the big question for me.

[@Poor.and.Bruised.of.Spirit]

Great Video Aron. I have always gotten frustrated talking with Christians that think they will never loose consciousness. We don't have a soul. We are a soul, or living being. When our breath leaves our body, our soul dies. Dirt naps for everyone.

[@arturopersenota]

I would propose a slight twist on the 'idealist' explanation of our reality, which actually addresses and accommodates all what Dr Thompson has brought up in this conversation (and potentially everything else neuroscientists would ever discover in the future): and that is modeling our reality as a consciousness-centric simulation. In this, the brain activity mapped by Dr Thompson and others are simply the 'manifestation of consciousness' in our given reality at the most detailed level allowed by the simulation. Also, we exist in this simulation with a set of limitations. Most of these limitations are implemented by having to be inside of our 'bodies'. But aside from these very personal limitations, we also have the 'laws of nature' (a shot to the head WILL end our participation or seriously affect our conscious experience, and so do a myriad of other 'physical' influences that are allowed to affect our consciousness through our bodies). Thus, ultimately, this model of reality will have almost the same end results as scientists can confirm through probing the 'observable reality' (which is a presentation of the simulation). The simulation makes the 'ghost in the body' problem go away - in a paradigm switch of thinking, consciousness simply enters the system from the external. This, we can illustrate and even implement in computer simulations and our nightly dreams: who would be foolish to start looking for the source and nature of consciousness WITHIN these types of realities, as we KNOW consciousness enters them from the external (that is, if they are not NPCs implemented by the simulation itself)... Thus, even though we can use science to map out and turn into cures all kinds of stuff in the brain, we are still just acting within the allowed bounds of our simulation. Thus, the simulation model is evidenced as a hint to each of us through dreaming and the possibility of computer simulations (but we can NOT have evidence for BEING in one until we exit it), it accommodates all current and future scientific discoveries, including all of what neuroscience may still uncover, BUT it logically calls for its creator - as it is more likely that a simulation has its creator, then not have one. And there, we have arrived back to belief systems, of which materialism and physicalism are also ones (as they rely on the belief that our observable reality represents the entirety of reality, and that the observer consciousness like us necessarily emerged from certain arrangements of our observable elementary particles or fields - both of which stay unproven) In a simulated world, the creator of our reality would NOT be a 'liar' by letting us conduct 'fake brain science', as brain science would NOT be fake - it would be an act that would utilize the proper tool for uncovering and dealing the configuration and workings of our simulation, which is scientific investigation and developments. Everything in our simulated reality IS REAL, as that is what reality IS. Conscious beings need to exist in simulations, and simulations would not exist without their participating conscious beings.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

I recall seeing an old video about animals in zero gravity(a cargo plane in free fall... the infamous 'vomit taboggan') Fish, and, I think... birds, seemed lost without gravity. I keep thinking how odd that creatures capable of normally moving in three dimensions would have trouble. Cats, apparently, handled it rather well.

[@simongiles9749]

Fish do possess inner ear otoliths, so it seems likely that they'd experience inertia in a similar way as us. And if the "downwards" signal is no longer acting as it usually does under 1g, it'd seem reasonable to assume that they'll be getting confusing input.

[@h.l.aristosolies5292]

I'm looking forward to the follow-up 🤟🏻

[@Atomicheathen]

Super interesting, great work as usual! At what point (relating to damage to the brain in some way), are you no longer the you that even you would identify as you or with?

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

This really depends upon which parts of the brain are affected and by how much. Just like molecular pathways, the brain has more redundancy than you might suspect. It's not a finely tuned machine that is obviously irreducibly complex. You can eventually break it by removing parts, but it's iterative and graded. Now, there are areas of the brain that are definitely much more involved in things one might call "mind" than others, and other areas that are going to be specifically involved in sensory input and motor output which are less critical for "mind" functions. But there isn't going to be a specific area that is THE mind area. Sorry for the vague nuanced answer, but the honest answer is "it depends!"

[@MetallicAAlabamA]

The brain is one thing that alot of Christians want to ignore with all cost. Especially the science behind how the brain works, how it sends signals to all parts of the body, and how damage to any part or multiple parts can cause major issues in it functions and change ones personality. And I've talking about NDE's and what the brain starts to do when deprived of oxygen. And what kind of damage can occur when you're not receiving oxygen to your brain. And when people talk about their NDE, it always seems to coincide with the religion that person has lived around or was a devout follower of said religion. None that I recall said that they were seeing Mahomet and believed Jesus is the messiah lol. Majority didn't even have a religious experience during an NDE. And unless you've been dead for over a week then come back? Ok that is weird! I have asked my mother so many times to give the evidence a chance and if you haven't come to a different thought, then I'll leave her be and never bother with a question about faith, religion, politics, etc. She will say "What is even true anymore? How do we know what is true?" I'm like "What's right here in front of my face! What I can see, touch, watch, predict, learn, and everything else that goes with reality! If I'm taking what I can see and touch, throwing that out like a devil or demon is in control of what we see and taste and only God is real. I'll go to my grave saying that is a dangerous level for anyone to become. I think it's 1000% a mental health crisis when people deny reality.

[@Sableagle]

Not just Christians but transphobic bigots of any faith and none, because grey and white matter distributions in the brain correlate to gender identity, not to genotype or gonadal phenotype or gamete production or what name someone was given at birth or which box was ticked when they were registered at school. The brain's the one part you can't transplant, isn't it? You can transplant hearts, livers, lungs, kidneys, bone marrow, blood, probably adrenal glands and pieces of skull, areas of skin, muscles, all kinds of stuff. As long as the same brain's there and running, that's still the same person no matter what other parts they're using, so the brain is what defines _which_ person is in that body, so the brain defines the person, so that bimodal distribution of brain designs is the one thing we could use to define a person's gender, and it correlates to gender identity, so we can _let people tell us their gender_ and _ignore their gonads and chromosomes_ and that freaks transphobes right out.

[@normanosborn1277]

Religion is the manifestation of several mental health conditions.

[@theflyingdutchguy9870]

often they even manage to ignore their own brain😂

[@josephjones4331]

You can't see your thoughts. Can't touch them Taste them Hear them Feel them How do you know your thoughts are real?

[@MetallicAAlabamA]

@@josephjones4331 Have you ever pulled a Green Day and bit your lip, while slipping away to paradise? I got so bored once that I thought I was going blind. But that was just a myth 😂. Masturbate! And the wrinkled ball of neurons and living file cabinets will show that one can feel their thoughts. Just sayin'!! (Hmm, hmm, 😉)

[@davethebrahman9870]

Great stuff, thanks guys. The ‘ghost in my machine’ is attempting to applaud and not getting anywhere! :)

[@misstere5132]

This was great. Thank you

[@KoffeeMom]

I watched a documentary on the primates in Japan and the man who started the research. The takeaway that I was left with was the location of the brain their short-term memory in the brain is the same place our language is "stored". It made a lot of sense to me that the ability to recall the incredibly long run of numbers on the screen was the equivalent of the trains of thought I have. They can't speak, but damn I can't remember sequences that clearly either.

[@brunozeigerts6379]

I understand that we've had to drastically revamp our concept as to how intelligent other primates are. A friend of mine even said that gorillas were more intelligent than humans, but were mainly constrained by the lack of an opposable thumb. Certainly, we've been able to train them to speak with machines or sign language.(I think?) Maybe the true test of ape intelligence... whether they would vote for Trump.

[@penguincommando]

😂

[@AttentiveDragon]

This was an excellent interview. I'd love to see more with Dr. Thompson.

[@rickybloss8537]

Not everyone has an internal monolog yet they can still think.

[@rufusthehunalprophet6648]

A follow-up on this would be amazing. I was engaged and interested the entire time

[@thefisherking78]

That could have been really dry but it wasn't at all. You made the subject supremely intriguing.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

Thanks for the comment! Very appreciated!

[@kennethc2466]

Thanks for this great interview, fine sirs!

[@hob991]

Yes I can confirm an area of damage to the brain has a cause to a part of the body, my stroke (burst blood vessel) 4 years ago meant total blindness on one side......... while my sight is normal the other side, as the brain that side has no damage.

[@hob991]

@R Boland It is not something that is eyeball related, my eyes both work as they always have.I understand that eye control problems can happen depending on the area damaged. Not everyone knows but if you draw a vertical line at the center of each eye the two left sides look towards the right and the two right halves look towards the left. To further complicate things there are 2 visual cortexes each resolving what the separate pairs of 1\2 eyes see and they cross over in the middle of your head as well. So brain damage to the cortex on my left side means I am 1\2 blind in both eyes on my right side. I am not that good at explaining it , so look up Hemianopia here on youtube there are a few topics with brain experts that have diagrams. As for the other bit I am 71 years old so no idea if or how it would relate to a child. There was a minimal chance my brain could "rewire to some extent" but only in the first 3 months. N

[@Nessa2Bea]

Thank you gentlemen, this was an eye opening discussion for me.

[@KingNik1994]

Thank you both, a hugely interesting and informative video :)

[@ptgannon1]

Fascinating discussion! I spend a lot of time talking about the implications of Quantum Field Theory (QFT), so I enjoyed the discussion about missing interactions. Where are the interactions from gods, devils, souls, ghosts and spirits? Given the tools we have today, observing such interactions at the cellular level would be a piece of cake. They would have been found and identified, and no longer supernatural. So is the interaction taking place at a deeper level? We look into the molecule, then the atom and then the subatomic particles, and learn from QFT/Standard Model that we are mostly comprised of quarks and electrons. The last few decades have been spent testing the theory of QFT which began about a century ago. We know today what we are comprised of and what those things interact with, and we know this beyond reasonable doubt. If there were god, devil, soul, ghost or spirit forces, fields or particles (vibrating fields) interacting with us, we'd know it and these things would no longer be supernatural. However there aren't any such interactions. Alternatively there could be interactions with our basic components that are unexplained - but there aren't any unexplained interactions. We even know about the trillions of neutrinos flowing through us continuously without interacting at all. Who "we" are, I assume it will be agreed, is the culmination of a lifetime of neurons firing in complex patterns to give us thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, knowledge and so on. All that "information" is tied up in the quarks and electrons that were involved in producing it. When the brain dies, those particles go back to the cosmos they came from, either through decomposition or cremation. There is no way to transfer that "information," unless believers are prepared to come up with a hypothesis or even a wild-ass guess as to how that might happen. The burden of proof has shifted. If gods interact with us, the believers must explain why the science is wrong and propose their own mechanism. You just have to know there are people sitting in back rooms at the Vatican trying to figure out how in the hell they are going to deal with QFT. Evolution was a problem, but QFT is disaster. It turns out that God apparently created a universe with rules that preclude him from participating in it.

[@parabellum4622]

When you'd be confident, when you'd elevate yourself and your confidence grows more and more... When you lack actual, genuine, aware, humbleness; so much that you never stop raising the bar for how high you elevate yourself. You are now God... No longer distinguishable from where you started.

[@vegasflyboy67]

When your favorite flavor of God always agrees with you, it gives away the illusion that the God is you.

[@salwillis3529]

Great guest, great topic. I love learning about neuroscience and psychology 👍

[@RickySTT]

Learning how much neuroscientists know about the brain was a major factor in undermining my belief in a god. And that was almost 20 years ago! Imagine how much more we know today than then.

[@arturopersenota]

and yet, we COULD be living in a simulation, where all your brain activity is simply the manifestation of your conscious processes, and since the simulation is interactive, it allows your consciousness to be affected in certain ways (be it a bullet to your head, a joint, or triggering electromagnetic pulses to certain parts of your brain). And then the existence of a creator is logical..

[@charlestownsend9280]

The using 10% of our brain thing is like looking at a computer and seeing the processor and then saying that the computer only uses 10% of its components. It's idiotic.

[@mikolmisol6258]

Makes for a headline, though! Sometimes, I'm really mad at journalists. Their relentless search for headlines strips science of all nuance and may, I think, contribute to science denialism.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

If you only count the conscious mind you self-identify with, it could be true ✅. You wouldn't bother about what your subconscious believes (acts on the basis of assuming is true for all of *those* 🙄 humans) when stating your religious affiliation, would you?

[@charlestownsend9280]

@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana except that consciousness is a combination of many parts of the brain (memory, senses, instincts, the ability to learn, self recognition, etc), you remove any part of the brain then you'd affect your consciousness. Like with the computer analogy you start pulling out wires which connect the various components it wound affect those individual components because it's a combination of a those parts together.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

@@charlestownsend9280 That isn't true. You can be unconscious and your body will be perfectly fine. Otherwise you would die ☠☠ when you went to sleep 🛌. You can even be unconscious when you are moving, which is why you don't have your usual personality and behave like a robot 🤖 (the smai form). Consciousness if more like an application than the computer. Sure, it won't work without the computer, but the computer will be *just fine* without it.

[@tron.44]

Exactly, except for whatever this re:regarded is talking about above me

[@MrJimbissle]

Great discussion. More of this would be great! EDIT : Classic ending . . .

[@2ahdcat]

My kitten "Speck" is just over a year old. He already kniws His name AND nicknames. He also knows a LOT of other words already. He also knows my moods. 👍

[@JackPerry-ym6ls]

Maybe in the next discussion Dr Thompson can postulate on the subjective experience of death. Not “near death,” but the shut off protocols of the brain in a real death event, and what the experience must be like for the mind tracking its own neural demise.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

It's not a topic I know, but I'll look into it before the next conversation.

[@JackPerry-ym6ls]

@@Dr.ChrisThompson understood. Certainly such unobservable phenom is anyone’s guess, but an educated guess (in terms of firing synapses in retreat) does bring value to the equation.,

[@Sciguy95]

When you mentioned Phineas Gage it made me think of this guy that would shop at a store I was working at. He would come in on a wheelchair and his head looked like he had had the top left quarter of his head cut out. It appeared like he was missing the entire left hemisphere of his brain, though I have no idea much was actually gone.

[@Sableagle]

"Just a dumb animal" like a rat, which will investigate any dead rat found, looking for injuries, and if there's no obvious injury will sniff the dead rat's mouth to see what they last ate then refuse to eat that, or "just a dumb animal" like a goat that learns to operate the latches on the barn, or "just a dumb animal" like magpies, which can _tell_ when you're thinking about shooting them? It's not even the rifle. They just _know!_

[@flaming_bentley]

Rats are insanely intelligent and have empathy for their fellow rats

[@ospreyhawk]

In high school, I came up with the explanation for the soul as the sum of all the experiences and memories of a person during their life. So if one part of their lifestyle was altered in the past (like being more sporty or took up drinking), the person they would become would be quite different. So everyone's "soul" is different because no two people can have the exact same experiences or memories. Even identical twins develop unique personality traits just because they're seeing and doing things their twin(s) would have a different perspective on.

[@craig3226]

This was fascinating. I hope Aron has this guy on again

[@rel9602]

Great discussion. How much does it cost to get the whole temporary magnetic thought shut down procedure? Asking for a friend

[@defenderofwisdom]

Everyone knows the soul resides in a can on the shelf!!! Holy pasta sauce.

[@meganadair2201]

I agree with Aron when he said that either all life has a soul or no life has a soul. Once we start to trying to draw a line between what has a soul or things that lack one we end up in a problematic situation. It ends up lumping groups of human beings into the non soul category. It's just better believe we all have souls or souls simply do not exist. But that does go over well with Abrahamic faiths. I guess it's why we have holier than thou Abrahamic theists.

[@sonicrolfo]

Thanks for the amazing discussion! Thomas Metzinger: The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind and the Myth of the Self (English Edition) 2009 is a good and easy read close to this topic.

[@pjaworek6793]

Ok i have Broca's aphasia (maybe slightly?) with my first language and in many situations, with english as well. I forget all kinds of words constantly. Names, forget it. What kind of thinking is pure visualization? I still process a lot this way. Could this be related?

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

Interesting, and thanks for commenting. I would love to know more about your experience, especially with respect to how your internal dialogue changed after getting aphasia. Are you saying you mostly think in images?

[@pjaworek6793]

​​​​​@@Dr.ChrisThompson I should have really stated that I must (edit: might?) have a weak Broca's area (if not some syndrome) and it's always been that way for me. In fact, growing up, I knew that people thought largely in words and that I could not imagine a stated sentence. Any language in my thoughts is a flash and I could not form whole sentences ahead of saying them, I'd have to just start speaking and see where it lead. I still think mostly with imagery but I can form whole prepared sentences now. Common words escape me in every conversation though. I knew about these different areas and now I know what to call them. Thanks. I think everyone might experience this with less familiar languages, I suspect. (edit: Now that I watched the mind body dualism video you have, I see the right side/left side involvement in language also. What other areas are involved in say being able to understand and read Polish so well but struggle with every word or combination in order to compose anything verbal?)

[@Exquailibur]

I never thought a soul made sense, like why do I need a soul? What benefits would a soul provide? In the end I dont think that I need a soul nor do I want an immortal soul because eternity would suck.Something else that fascinates me is those who have fundamental differences in brain function, I have aphantasia and it basically means I cant think of something in my head and feel as though I experience it. For example I know what red is, but If I am not looking at red I cant see it or experience it and its the same with everything. Its hard to explain but its basically as if my mind's eye is completely blind. I cant have a flashback or get a song stuck in my head and who knows what else is missing that I didnt know was a thing, I thought a flashback was made up to be a narritive device and that having a song stuck in your head was a metaphor that I didn't get. I think in words like most, but I dont have a voice in my head which is something that is also hard to explain because how do you explain how you think when there isn't a word for it? If there is an entire way that I cant think what does that mean? That alone convinces me souls aren't real because if they were than mine is broken.

[@flaming_bentley]

Fascinating talk!

[@ChixieMary]

We are, after all, walking piles of electrified meat.

[@shardinhand1243]

im not neuroscientist, though i respect the hell out of them theyre doing a great work that will open so many doors closed to us now, anyways iv long thought of imortality as a concept to be hopelessly impossible, lets say you achived an imortality that ignored even the brains finite capacity you could go on living and learning all you want while retaining perfect memory clarity... the only way would be to have your mind copped by some future ai, but even this perfected form of live extention cant give true imortality not how you christians want becuase you nolonger forget and will live "forever" forever in reality just being until entropy takes you along with everything else, dont worry its practial imortality being billians of years away. the problem becomes keeping yourself as you are intact over the hundreds, thuasands millians or years of memories and information and change you would go through, its like comparing who you were as an infant to who you are in your 40s... the soul, who you are, has changed, you cant stop that change, and every lesser form of imortality just adds an extra problem to the concept, biological imortality lacking the perfect memory of ai imortality you would go on to mutate so many times over the centuries and millenia that you wouldint even geneticly be the same person anymore... and of course you wouldint remember anything from a thuasand years ago... you see, its futile, imortality is imposible, atleast in the ways anyone would want it... heres a method of being imortal, your mind is copied digitaly and saved... now you cant actualy experiance this becuase to experiance it would mean your awake, taking in new information, cant do that and keep who you are intact indefinatly... so imortality is an eternal dream... thats the best that could be done, its a flaw of conciousnes if your awake, your thinking, your experiancing, your changing... so imortality is imposible, thats what i came to understand years ago. it cant be done. maybe imortality is possible for a jelly fish... but something as advanced as a human mind... impossible.

[@FaithfulObjectivist]

Best guest ever Mr. Ra!

[@zemorph42]

I had an experience in 1990 - '91 that I thought at the time was a time travel event, where my consciousness temporarily inhabited my body that existed in the early 1980s(~11 yrs old or so.). It lasted less than 3 minutes. My anachronistic memories were fading away like a dream and I was forgetting them. If it had lasted longer I probably would have been left with vague premonitions at most, however I returned to my then present before that happened. I still don't know what that experience was.

[@danielgautreau161]

Having a dream or something very much like one, while awake, is much more common than most people think . A Harvard psychologist asked people to compose "alien abduction" stories about themselves. One difference from reports from people who really believed they had been abducted was that the believers never describe the act of entering a spaceship. "I was lifted up, then I was in the ship,..." In a dream, it's "I was walking on Joe's street, then I was in Joe's house..."

[@johnkleivo856]

I had this exact same experience a few months ago and while it was happening I kept asking myself how this is even possible. I hopped back and forth between then (1992 me) and present me

[@zemorph42]

@@danielgautreau161 I went to sleep in 1991 and seconds later, woke up in the early 1980s in my pre-teen self. It was absolutely indistinguishable from waking reality but real life me was asleep in my bed a decade later, unless _The Butterfly Effect_ movie is more fact than fiction. If it was a dream, it was the only one I couldn't distinguish from waking reality even after it was over. I don't know; I lack enough data.

[@grapeshot]

Yeah he just doesn't seem to want to accept that preacher that is that a hundred years from now it will be like he never was even here.

[@thedragonofechigo7878]

I think a lot of people have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that within a few hundred years after their death, it'll be as if they never even existed on this planet, much the same as people from 300-700 years ago.

[@exceptionallyaverage3075]

​@The Dragon of Echigo Less than that, I think. When the last person who knew you died, you'll only be some stranger in a video, or a name someone wrote somewhere.

[@thedragonofechigo7878]

@@exceptionallyaverage3075 that's true and that could be within a few decades after you've died.

[@mobiusd9885]

Fascinating conversation.

[@TheElectra5000]

I remember reading Descartes' Metaphysical Meditations in high school and one of the proofs of god's existence that he mentions (I think he had 3) was that if god is actually perfect, then he has to exist, because non-existence would be an imperfection. Sorry if I don't remember the other arguments, but it's been over 30 years since I read it.

[@mdug7224]

EXCELLENT! A topic of significance that would be great to cover would be sex roll related to density and function of the amygdala and hypothalmus.

[@Tweaker420666]

That is a beautiful dinosaur you have to your left Aron!

[@Vadjong]

28:34 Is he talking about Dennis Prager, Jordan Peterson, Low Bar Bill, et al.? Sorry. I meant no disrespect to actual patients of this condition. 🙏

[@tabularasa0606]

I see I was not the only one thinking that.

[@valentine7455]

I thought it was very interesting that you both mentioned that we all think through subvocalising or talking to ourselves in our heads because I don't experience that, it turns out that lack of subvocalisation is a sign of autism and I am diagnosed so that's likely why but it hasn't impaired me in any way, most people don't know I'm autistic at first and I don't have trouble with communication even talking or with understanding speech or writing For most of my life I assumed everyone else was speaking metaphorically when they talked about talking to themselves in their head, like when they sat they're trying to tell themselves that it'll be okay before doing something scary

[@valentine7455]

I also have aphantasia which means I don't have a simulation of vision in my mind either, idk how to describe my thoughts, they're just not simulations of my senses, I can remember sounds and sights obviously, really well in fact, I just don't need or have a copy of the experience that plays back when I do remember

[@Hinklesworth]

Fascinating, hail Sagan

[@RCGamex]

Great to hear from a fellow Hokie!

[@Sciguy95]

Once we get into true AI I feel like there are going to be a ton of people that just outright refuse to accept any level of AI as actually being conscious or self aware. They will always argue that because it isn't a living being that was born from another living being that it simply cannot ever be considered conscious or self aware. Just like how we have people today that refuse to accept that any animals other than humans can have self awareness, I even had a guy that went as far as to tell me that animals don't even have brains when he was trying to convince me that humans can't be considered animals. He had said that humans have brains and animals don't which proves that humans aren't animals.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

I wouldn't even know where to begin with someone that claims that only humans have brains and animals don't. Yikes!

[@Sciguy95]

@@Dr.ChrisThompson it reminds me of the video of that guy that Aron like to show that says if the Bible said 2+2=5 he wouldn't questions it, he would just accept it as true. Where do you even start with a person like that? It's crazy the level of delusion people are willing to go to in order to keep believing a bunch of bullshit instead of obvious in your face reality.

[@VergilSDT]

This is exactly the video I've been waiting for, an actual neuroscientist explaining in relative detail how the "mind" is completely physical. Excellent information, thanks Aron.

[@brian.the.archivist]

So I don't have an inner monologue unless I am trying to think of how to say something or I am reading. Most conversations I am verbalizing as the words come to me. It rarely comes up otherwise, there's a term for that right?

[@thomasseichter5670]

Awesome talk guys. I really enjoyed listening and learning. If you are planning a follow up maybe it would be interesting to take some of the widest spread concepts of soul in different religions, steelman them and than explain based on our scientific understanding, why all these concepts fail.

[@toforgetisagem8145]

If life doesn't matter now, how is endless life going to matter because life is always now?

[@zero69kage]

My personal view of the subject is that I do think that there is something that equates to the soul. I will point out that I identify myself as a nihilist. So I don't believe in a god of any kind, and I don't think there's any real point to our existence. I don't associate soul with anything regarding the brain. To me, the soul has more to do with animation. So, for example, if you remove the soul, the organism would just simply stop. Physically, there would be nothing wrong with it. It would simply just become inert. From the souls perspective, it would not experience anything it wouldn't think, feel, or understand anything as that is an aspect of the brain and having a physical body. I'm not even sure that it would have any form of permanence. As I could easily see a soul quickly devolve away. If there is a permanence to it, then most likely souls are recycled, like all other forms of mater.

[@RickySTT]

Your dog just reminded my of that TokToker with the emu.

[@GSMMW]

Can you touch on NDE's is your next Neuroscience talk with Dr. Thompson.

[@AronRa]

I knew I must have forgotten something!

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

I hate long talks on NDEs, for the simple reason, they are so easy to analysis with science, it makes discussion not centred on how to test them a complete waste of time. It is like debating spontaneous life appearing without testing it with some cheese cloth, meat, and a jar. NDEs are easily testable 🧪. Humans 👥👥👥👥 just don't do it. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 is an easy way to scientifically 🧑‍🔬 test 🧪 NDEs. It is less 🤏 dangerous ☣ than many common activities 🧗🏄 humans 👥👥👥👥 don’t see 👀 as wrong, under clinical 🧑‍⚕ conditions, so there should not be any issue 🗞. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 genuinely replicates the situation of NDEs with no hypothetical assumptions 🃏 on what causes them. Humans 👥👥👥👥 have previously used nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 safely, to measure how long it takes to kill/harm you, so it is perfectly possible. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 has the benefits of: • No hypothetical assumptions 🃏 • Repeatable so patients get used to perceiving 👀 and recording 🧾 what happens in the NDEs • Repeatable so researchers can ask the patients to verify ✅❌ ❓if a detail is from a biased lexicon or what actually happens in the world 🌍 of the NDE • Specificable, so you can send a human 👥👥👥👥 with abnormally good memory there for more information • Early testable 🧪. This avoids a major issue in locations with strong 💪 Abrahamic faith ✡✝☪ presence. That the fear 😱 of being labeled as going to Hell 🔥🔥🔥, is inevitably making bad NDEs being underreported. Hard to convincingly lie 🤥 within a minute. • You get detailed enough information to tell if NDEs are dreams, because: I *always* ♾ find dreams have *inferable, hidden information* 🕵🕵🕵 that is *not directly perceived* 🤐🤐🤐 about *the dream world* 🌍🌍🌍. E.g. Character 👤🪞 motivations ❓, modus/modi operandi 🛣🛣🛣, the validity ✅❌ of a statement 📑 within the dream, etc. Dreams 💤 are primarily logic 🤔 puzzles 🧩🧩🧩. You don’t need to believe 🙏 people who say NDEs, you just need to make predictions and test 🧪 them on what they will say 🗣. Especially once their biased ❌⚖ lexicon 📜 is adjusted for.

[@inyobill]

If it doesn't matter in 5,000,000,000 then nothing matters. Such humble people, Jesusists.

[@arturopersenota]

I could reformulate this statement as such: if my conscious awareness will cease to exist together with all my memories of my experiences, then the entire existence of everything ceases to exist - in which case, nothing just happened (as there is no conscious one is around able to recall it).. This is not humbleness or arrogance, but pure philosophy. I happen to reason that the complete and fatal cessation of the self's awareness is an impossibility. And indeed, no conscious being around has ever had this cessation experience - we just believe it will happen, because we see others exiting this way from our reality.. And this is a belief one can hold as a conscious observer - but nothing more.

[@krissaunders6418]

One thing I would like to hear about in the follow-up video is: thought through internal monolog vs thought through mental images. It is going around the internet that some people think in words while others think in pictures. Is this true or more shit on the internet?

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

The apologist rebuttal seems to be the soul exists in some lala land, and is merely transmitting to the brain and then the body. It's hard to justify that, if stimulating the brain can directly cause a behavior. Also, Shannon Q would be good for this talk. Maybe three-way conference.

[@jamiegallier2106]

Great discussion.

[@Bob-of-Zoid]

One slight correction you two: You can't take a hard drive out of a computer with Microsoft Windows, or Mac OS and put it in another computer with different hardware without it freaking out majorly, but I run Linux🐧, and can do just that, and for the most part it will boot, and run without any major problems, because it has bunches of hardware drivers that it chooses on boot and loads into the kernel based on a hardware detection at boot. On top of that most Linux Based OS's (There's thousands) and software's will change any settings according to it, so if you had the OS set for a 4K screen, and replace the screen with one at only 1080p, the OS will change that setting in whatever files it's saved in to the lower resolution, and as soon as you launch lets say a graphics editor, it will most likely do the same for it's own settings. I can have Linux on a USB drive, or MMC card (It's way smaller than Windows for not having a crap load of spyware and bloat), plug it into just about any computer, Mac's too and it will boot up (A boot drive setting in BIOS may be required) and give me all of my software and data stored on it, and so acts pretty much identical to my computer, with all of my KZbin channels, bookmarks, program settings... albeit with expected differences like in performance, keyboard and mouse feel, screen size... If connected to the internet it may even ask if I want to change the timezone, if I am in a different one! MAC OS will not run on anything without Apple Hardware, Windows only on hardware it's installed on and can be installed on, so not MAC's, ARM or RISC V (5) Processor machines, but Linux will run on just about anything, even a smart toaster or fridge, and most of them and everything else already does, including most cars, whole power grids and power plants, MRI's, Cat scanners, Satellites, all but 2 supercomputers in the world (maybe all now), and even the Super Collider at Cern all run on Linux! You would be a fool to trust Windows with any of it, and I don't trust it on any of my devices.🤬 Developers with well working brains can, and have figured out ways to do such things, so you neuroscientist are behind!🤣 Either that, or people need to stop comparing brains to computers more than just for really rough comparison.🤔

[@andreas7250]

That what great to listen to. Thank you. Could you talk a little more about the "Piano player" argument next time? I feel like i don't have a good answer/debunk on that yet

[@kylelloyd4437]

"Uli doesn't care about anything. He's a nihilist". Huh must be exhausting

[@RandomAllen]

I think Dr. Thompson's predictions about neurosciencists being the next target of public histeria following AI advancement is likely to be proven true. I've already seen evidence to support this with some of the public reactions to AI art I saw on Facebook. There was this violent revulsion, anger and defensiveness with many comments screaming "AI can't make true art. IT HAS NO SOUL" and many other comments to that effect.

[@oliverthompson9922]

Really interesting conversation. In terms of mind body, if you theoretically lost your legs and had transplants, would you have to learn to use them all over again? 🤔

[@OmegaWolf747]

I've become obsessed with this topic and think about it almost daily. What is consciousness? Is it an energy that lives inside us or just the emergent property of our brains' electrochemical processes? I'm leaning more toward the latter, but sometimes still hope at least a bit for the former. At any rate, Aron, would you be willing to do a video someday debunking phenomena such as OBEs and NDEs? Thanks so much.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

If you want to debunk NDEs just test them and put the matter to rest. NDEs are easily testable 🧪. Humans 👥👥👥👥 just don't do it. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 is an easy way to scientifically 🧑‍🔬 test 🧪 NDEs. It is less 🤏 dangerous ☣ than many common activities 🧗🏄 humans 👥👥👥👥 don’t see 👀 as wrong, under clinical 🧑‍⚕ conditions, so there should not be any issue 🗞. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 genuinely replicates the situation of NDEs with no hypothetical assumptions 🃏 on what causes them. Humans 👥👥👥👥 have previously used nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 safely, to measure how long it takes to kill/harm you, so it is perfectly possible. Nitrogen asphyxiation 🫁 ❌🏭 has the benefits of: • No hypothetical assumptions 🃏 • Repeatable so patients get used to perceiving 👀 and recording 🧾 what happens in the NDEs • Repeatable so researchers can ask the patients to verify ✅❌ ❓if a detail is from a biased lexicon or what actually happens in the world 🌍 of the NDE • Specificable, so you can send a human 👥👥👥👥 with abnormally good memory there for more information • Early testable 🧪. This avoids a major issue in locations with strong 💪 Abrahamic faith ✡✝☪ presence. That the fear 😱 of being labeled as going to Hell 🔥🔥🔥, is inevitably making bad NDEs being underreported. Hard to convincingly lie 🤥 within a minute. • You get detailed enough information to tell if NDEs are dreams, because: I *always* ♾ find dreams have *inferable, hidden information* 🕵🕵🕵 that is *not directly perceived* 🤐🤐🤐 about *the dream world* 🌍🌍🌍. E.g. Character 👤🪞 motivations ❓, modus/modi operandi 🛣🛣🛣, the validity ✅❌ of a statement 📑 within the dream, etc. Dreams 💤 are primarily logic 🤔 puzzles 🧩🧩🧩. You don’t need to believe 🙏 people who say NDEs, you just need to make predictions and test 🧪 them on what they will say 🗣. Especially once their biased ❌⚖ lexicon 📜 is adjusted for.

[@danielgautreau161]

Calling it "an energy" does not help. It is meaningless.

[@arturopersenota]

in the end of the day, the phenomena of stuff emerging at all is still in your observations, which you believe/accept in the end. So the existence of your conscious awareness (YOU) is still more 'primitive' than its observations. As I an entirely unconvinced that elementary particles can self-arrange to conscious beings that will end up composing Debussy and prove complex math problems, I lean toward using a model of reality that I deem to be better than materialism: simulation. In it, all your brain science advances stay valid, but you can still hope for an objective purpose behind your existence here.

[@FVLMEN]

You don't know what electricity is. Electricity isn't a thing. It's no object or substance. Matter analyzed deeply doesn't exist. So the latter is not supported by this delusion of material reality.

[@silviu-georgepantelimon1423]

That interview is brilliant! I never understood why people get angry when we discover something and that the explanation is not supernatural (which never was an explanation to begin with) because they consider that you destroy it's value that way. I think that attitude is bullshit because you don't diminish the value of a particular phenomenon such as the mind, but rather you enhance it.

[@paulroyle-grimes]

One of the scariest things to me. As I get older I look around at my parents, former professors, teachers, and friends. Sooo many are suffering from some sort of illness- I hope that I can hold it off for at least another twenty years. Maybe science will be able to fix these things.

[@jameswright...]

Possibly... but remember older generations didn't have the same advantages younger generations do in nutrition and health care. It's more in your hands than anything how healthy you are, you can avoid certain issues like diabetes or some cancers depending on how you live. That and a bit of luck because my grandad grow up in slums never had much yet lived till 97 in good health.

[@Kafirman666]

I read somewhere that if you stay away from bread and consume a lot of coffee you will live longer.

[@josephjones4331]

"Science" is held hostage by profit. Science says that that McDonalds shouldn't be in business because of the detrimental effects of the food they sell. It is a goals errand to think that "Science" as it is today, will be able to help anything except to increase corporate control and profit. We have to be honest about the power structures in the world and how they operate. Science is held in bondage. If there is something that will ebenfot mankind BUT can't used to turn a profit, then it doesn't get funded.

[@mikolmisol6258]

​@josephjones4331 That's just silly. Do you not know that not all science is industrial? That there are many government agencies doing basic research in all countries?

[@mikolmisol6258]

I can recommend Stoic philosophy. Step 1: Divide everything in your life into things you can affect and things you cannot affect. Step 2: Stop worrying about the latter. Of course, this is far easier said than done, but you will find many Stoic exercises online to get you on the right track.

[@acialist]

So A Question: What if the mirror test was done with an AI that is hooked up to sensors, one of which being a camera used for visual input, and put this in front of the mirror. Would it be able to recognize that it is in the mirror, or moreover, if you programmed it to get rid of something off of the outer casing in the manner of a dot, or whatever, would it be able to use the mirror as an aid in doing so, and would this equate to the showing of consciousness? I wonder if this sort of thing has been done at all with any of those AI models that were put into bodies, or if all that those were doing were just fancy puppet shows, where the AI wasn't actually doing anything to control the hydraulics or motors. Or rather, if any sensory devices were installed in those bodies which could be used as inputs.

[@jens6754]

Interesting convo! I didn't agree with all of it though. For one thing, not everyone equates "the mind" with "the personality". After Phineas Gage suffered brain damage, was he no longer Phineas Gage? Was his mind still the mind of Phineas? If we were able to ask him, what might he say? I'm not the same person I was twenty years ago, but at no time was I not "I". My "self" has remained intact even though my body, knowledge, skills, and brain is very different. I need to read Chalmers. Though I'm familiar with the "hard problem" concept, I know too little of the details to have any worthwhile opinion on it... yet! (Edit): I think it would have helped to have taken more time at the beginning to clarify the definition of "consciousness" or "soul" or "mind" or whatever exactly it was you were working with here.

[@Scorned405]

You all ever heard of Timothy Crow?? He was a linguistics researcher that had a theory that psychotic disorders could be spurned on my diversity in linguistics?

[@J2daMFnR]

Would love a follow up to this, yes!

[@TheZeroNeonix]

The analogy of the soul being the pianist and the body the piano does not work when the corpus callosum is split. When the tissue connecting the two hemispheres of the brain is cut, the two sides can't communicate. So what happens then? It becomes as if there are two different minds operating in the same body, often working against each other. That makes no sense if the input for commands is from a single soul. It makes complete sense from a naturalistic perspective, however. If the mind is just a set of neurons working in sync with each other, then of course inhibiting their ability to communicate back and forth will result in the appearance of two distinct minds.

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

That's an excellent point, and it is one I bring up and discuss with some data in my impromptu debate on this topic on my channel. Check out "Neuroscientist debunks mind body dualism".

[@MAJMAJESTIC]

👍Very interesting!

[@bestinference]

Wish I knew this sorta thing sooner. It's always "I assume this now you prove me wrong or I'm right" with these people every time though so I bet you have an entire team of scientists explain this and it will just come down to "No I'm right because I assume there's a puppeteer and you prove me wrong or I'm right" as if that's how anything ever worked or as if that's at all honest. Yeah I got some swamp land with oil in it someplace and I'm right until you prove there ain't oil anywhere, going to buy it off me? Suddenly they don't think that way of figurin is good.

[@jesseterpstra5472]

This is so fascinating! Thank you for making this video. The part of the video about language and consciousness made me think of an interesting hypothetical question to add. Suppose a child was orphaned at a very young age but somehow managed to survive into adulthood without learning any language at all. What would that child's inner dialog be like and how would that affect its ability to reason?

[@mesplin3]

Some people don't have an inner dialogue. I lost mine after learning a second language and traveling abroad. I would imagine that these adults would be similar to wild apes.

[@jesseterpstra5472]

@Michael Esplin that's interesting. I learned a second language when I was a kid and I am still fluent and I can inner dialog in either and switch back and forth. But the part of the video where they talk about learning a language as an adult was interesting because I'm using duo lingo now to learn a new language as an adult and I can understand what they were saying about it using the reason part of the brain because I'm doing that as I learn.

[@jesseterpstra5472]

@R Boland I don't think you'll actually find anything legit, which is why I framed it as hypothetical. You're right, a comparative analysis would be best but unlikely to be able to be done, IMO

[@mesplin3]

@R Boland I wasn't joking. I don't mind if you doubt me. I have no idea how you could verify my claim though.

[@c.geezer8753]

Very Good.

[@theflyingdutchguy9870]

corvids are indeed songbirds. pretty crazy right. people also dont know how diverse they really are. jay's and nutcrackers are also corvids

[@Dr.ChrisThompson]

So are jackdaws and magpies! Yes, kind of a brain fart I had... I am thinking about doing an Aron Ra-style tour of the birds, mostly so I can bone up on my own knowledge on the topic!