NEVER wire these inverters to your house!

[@junkerzn7312]

This is a fun story. I have an Oukitel P2001 (also known as FFPower) and during a power failure I had it connected up to my fridge via the breaker box, basically just by unhooking the fridge circuit's HOT from the breaker and tying it into the inverter along with the house neutral. This worked fine. But all was not well! The power station's ground pin wasn't connected to anything, ok, no problem. I'll use the ground from the panel, even though it's gonna be isolated from the HOT and NEUTRAL. Everything worked great UNTIL I had to recharge the power station which I did by plugging the emergency AC output from the house's SMA grid-tie inverter to the AC input of the power station via a very long extension cord. It still worked but now I got a buzz when touching the house neutral. WTF? I had somehow energized the house's neutral relative to ground! So I checked matters with the mult-meter. The emergency AC from the grid-tie inverter was 100% ok. Ground and neutral were bonded at the house's main panel so there was continuity. Then I measured the AC output of the power station relative to ground and what the heck! I got 120VAC on the power station's AC output's NEUTRAL, and its HOT output was grounded. The power station had energized the neutral for the entire house relative to ground. No HOT to the house (I had pulled the HOT wire out of the breaker to connect to the power station), so the house wasn't powered... but because I had plugged something into the AC input of the power station, now the house's neutral was energized relative to ground. It turned out that the bozos who made the power station swapped HOT and NEUTRAL on the AC output plugs relative to the AC input plug. After swapping the wires on the output, everything was fine again. The power station's HOT output had continuity to the house ground and house neutral, and the power station's NEUTRAL output was energized. Swapping the wires made everything whole again. So now I have a label on that power station "HOT AND NEUTRAL REVERSED ON AC OUTPUTS". -Matt

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Wow... that's really dangerous. I have heard other folks reporting the same thing on other inverters... something else to watch out for!

[@mdrabeck]

Holy cow! Who knew! I've been working with inverters for over 10 years, had no idea, especially that 60 V nonsense, yikes! I have a couple 3000 W inverters and use right now, I can't believe I've never blown anything up! Thank you so much.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Glad to help

[@rickhunt3183]

Before you put any inverter into use. You might want to scope it and see what the power looks like under various loads, also check hot to neutral, hot to ground and neutral to ground. The biggest take away should be, and this goes with anything. If you have to adapt something to make it work, stop right there.

[@Veritas-invenitur]

@@ReelClearMediaLLCThank-you for spreading the word about inverters.

[@davidpopowicz7689]

One fun thing I learned is that sometimes, when hardwiring them, plugging something into the built-in AC ports can cause a whole lot of problems, including the 60v voltage mentioned in this video. Many videos solved this, but they did not explain this in any detail! A big thank you for a resource to give to other people to understand this.

[@AaronBregg]

Good information to share. For my Renogy 2000 setup, I just used a small subpanel like a main one and ran separate Romex lines to my office. So no need to connect it to the grid. :)

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

That's a great way to use the inverter! Was the Renogy 2000 bonded or floating?

[@nodripsman]

The Renegy 2000/ 3000 watt stand alone s are internally Bonded neutral to ground and can be opened up and snip the tiny connection., making it safe to Ground it's chassis to house ground.

[@AaronBregg]

@@nodripsman Some good info. Thanks!

[@nodripsman]

@@ReelClearMediaLLC Floating, not connected to the Ground chassis of the unit.

[@BartlettTFD]

OUTSTANDING information 👍👍

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks 👍

[@RoteLars]

Near all inverters on the market gives out IT powergrid (Insulated Terra) That is the powerstandard in Norway running on 220-240V 50 Hz. Rest of the world using now on days TN powergrid (Terra Neutral) IT powergrid is example output in N wire 110-120V and L1 wire 110-120V. That can be from ground to N wire 110-120V and from ground to L1 wire also same voltage. TN powergrid is output on N wire 0V and L1 wire 220-240V. Some cars we have in Norway of electric cars need TN powergrid to be able to charge, only 5% have that support in Norway.

[@minoru2878]

I have the same situation but with 220v, and I'm wondering. I could just earth the phase one, making it true neutral. And isolate the orginal earth wire to prevent short circuits.

[@LChow-xq3xm]

Excellent video! Great info for the newbies

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks!

[@Natsumidragneelkim]

​@@ReelClearMediaLLCas someone that repairs their own inverters you are somewhat correct, on modified sine wave inverters has a 60v switching system with a step up Transformer per leg (line and neutral) to make it's 120v at a square wave ac but on pure sine wave inverters it makes 120/115 on its switching system without a step up tranformer on its legs ( line and neutral) because ac is somewhat alternating push-pull

[@scottkolaya2110]

If my inverter is unbonded, how would I know if it's two 60v sine waves 180° apart or "true" 120v since with a scope they look identical between hot and neutral? And why would it matter?

[@st.charlesstreet9876]

Thank You Very Much for the important information. I’m always learning! 😮

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

you're welcome

[@blackforestshiresgypsyhors9583]

Have you tried using an isolation transformer between the inverter output and panel? Would make for a good video.

[@theclearsounds3911]

Isolation transformers will work if done properly. However, in my small inverter setup, the inefficiency of a transformer will drain my batteries much faster, making it useless. Different setups will get different results.

[@snowgorilla9789]

Thanks, have been looking at power station to run my high efficiency gas furnace (needs ground) and can find no info if the Ecoflow can be used with an external ground wire or one of the aftermarket ground bonding plugs (that plug into the power station/generator receptical)

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

You would have to contact Ecoflow. I know some people have used bonding plugs, and it worked, but then if you plug in the charging cable... you now have two bonds, and it fries the charger in the Ecoflow.

[@mickwolf1077]

if you had rcd's or rcbo's in your panel couldn't you just not wire the ground from your inverter if its bonded, wouldn't the rcd still detect a ground fault?

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Possibly, but the ground is also there to earth static charges such as lightning. Its also required by NEC in the US

[@markrix]

So short out ground and neutral, measure to check? Okay regular plug checker will do..

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

You take measurements first. If your inverter is un-bonded (aka floating), Hot-to-N=120v, N-G=40-60v, Hot-G=40-60v. If these are similar to your readings, you can bond N and G. If the readings are something other than that, you shouldn't bond. There is a chart in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIjdaZuCbcdsjJo

[@kahvac]

Great Video ! I have a Honda Inverter generator Sine wave output model EU3000is it works great but it took awhile for me to understand how it works. 83 volts on hot side of 120 volt generator receptacle to ground and 37 volts on neutral to ground. This provides 120 volts to appliances, It powers everything well in my house except for 240 volt appliances. It is odd though.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Chances are it is just unbonded. Test it like I show in the "is your solar inverter bonded or un-bonded "video. If it is un-bonded, you could bond neutral and ground in a separate small breaker panel, or even use a transfer switch to tie in to house wiring... or just plug in stuff directly.

[@kahvac]

@@ReelClearMediaLLC Yes you are correct. I called Honda about 2 years ago about why it was like that they said it has a Floating Neutral it also states that in the manual. The receptacle ground is connected to the chassis ground and has a chassis grounding terminal to ground it to a building or ground rod. You have an excellent video covering these principals .. Thank You !

[@eltronco1973]

thank you great video not much people know about this

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Trying to keep people from finding out the hard way.

[@dalewcjr]

Great explanation

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks!

[@josephamaral419]

Well that killed my urge to trip my transfer switch and connect a male to male ac to my house (the infamous iffy backfeeding.) I always figured it was horrible idea anyway, but I never knew it was because of this! I've never even bothered to check voltages across the main lines on the inverter. Very interesting.

[@edfx]

4:57 interesting Load Appliance example. I'd like to see real light bulb image where the neutral and ground is connected.

[@andydelle4509]

Any power inverter that has a three prong outlet with the ground floating or just a hole for the third prong is not going to be listed by any certified electrical safety agency. No way that would pass. If the device is un-grounded, that can be OK, but it cannot then have grounded outlets. So keep that in mind, what else did they cut corners on for cost?

[@MegaCyrik]

Oh bollocks.. a whole new area of crap i need to research.. when am i supposed to sleep? 😂

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Ha! What is this sleep you speak of?

[@johnkulpowich5260]

Excellent. Info

[@retrozmachine1189]

It comes down to having sufficient knowledge to be able to perform proper tests to determine how the inverter works. The average person off the street usually doesn't (see all the other comments in the thread for evidence of that!), and that's understandable. All electricians should absolutely have the knowledge and understanding to test but alas a lot don't. It's not just a case of whacking a DMM across something and measuring it as the high input impedance of a DMM (typically 10M) will indicate voltage even when the source itself is high impedance. Many countries now prohibit portable inverters / generators and such from having anything connected to the earth (ground) pin on sockets and terminal strips unless the device has an integrated RCD (GFCI). Fully isolated operation like this is perfectly safe as it requires a double fault situation for a person to be shocked (or worse).

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks! I appreciate your advice and experience.

[@kevinroberts781]

Many of these small inverters won't work with Ground fault equipment to start with.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

True.

[@supremeautomotive6749]

Lol you Tage old plug from cord and twist green and black together and it tricks the device and works just fine. Done it for many years.

[@KRich408]

I use a Victron multi plus I Inverter that is designed to be hard wired to my panel. I need to check my generator, it's a Honda 3000 Watt inverter genny I'm pretty sure it doesn't put out 60v on each leg I never thought about that being a top Brand. Hopefully it's not like these cheap inverters.

[@bshwin]

Help me understand why you would connect an inverter to your house? Isn’t the inverter connecting to a battery and proving AC output? Doesn’t connecting to your house safely involve a transfer switch?

[@CIVILDEFENSEBUNKER]

Probably talking about backfeeeding

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Yes, many people connect the AC out of the inverter through a transfer switch. This is similar to using a backup generator.

[@Angel_I2]

I used a high frequency cheap inverter to power the whole house, the danger was the battery poles became live wires and I received a couple of shocks. When I replaced it with a low frequency invert the "live poles" issue was gone.

[@CharlesMarcelin-zn5mm]

I have a similar problem when I touch my battery plastic enclosure. I have to Say I get a an electric shock when I touch my battery plastic case. What Can I do to correct that?

[@edussantoz9034]

​@CharlesMarcelin-zn5mm, those inverters use SMPS switching, and the output is isolated from the source. You can short the negative of the battery on the ground, also ground its not a magical thing that is manufactured on the inverter is just a rod inpaled in the "ground" and attached to a "point of reference" and in a single phase case will be your Neutral wire, the only difference from the "ground" wire and Neutral is that the neutral go in and out of the protection system and the ground is directly sourced in the Power, protection devices "sense" power going in and out, if the power going out is different than the power going in on the neutral that means it is passing through the "ground" and thats bad it then proceeds to trip, as simple as that

[@jpayne8096]

Found out the hard way a few years ago with an Ecoflow Delta Mini.... tried to hook it up as a pass through unit to a transfer switch.... fried the inverter, now I know why 😢

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

The ecoflow delta pro is able to be connected through a transfer switch... but its a lot more money.

[@Subgunman]

Great info!

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks!

[@hwoodist]

This is very informative. Thank you.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks

[@rickynaidoo2921]

Good to know.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

thanks!

[@You-can-fix-it-yourself]

vERY GOOD INFO. 60+ AND 60-. OUCH.

[@WesselVanSluis]

Please clearing indicate you are discussing the -from global perspective- the exceptional situaton for USA only. Split phase 240V are rare in most of the world where 120 degree 3 phase systems are common with 230V between phase and neutral and 400V between phases. And of course ground is NEVER considered as ground as with asymmetric loading you by design will have a delta between ground and neutral!

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

I thought I had brought it up, but you are right I need to be sure to make that more clear. Thanks.

[@Electronzap]

Nice.

[@henrytwigger2245]

"Neutral" is only neutral if it has the same potential as "Ground". It is incorrectly labeled.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

It should have the same potential as ground if everything is working correctly. If it doesn't, it is referred to as "floating neutral".

[@lakorai2]

Always buy only UL listed equipment that is pure sine wave only.

[@antolin221]

Look for Inverters that are UL 1741 certified.

[@nicoras8803]

Why is the power inverters in the USA designed so badly. I have had inverters wired to my house circuits for over twenty years. I use a 4000 watt for half the house and 3000 watts for the other half. I live in an international specified country at 240VAC. I have also installed these inverters in > 200 homes. I use the inverters available, no specific brand. My inverters have auto switch over and charges from mains while mains is available and switches to battery when mains is disrupted. Ground is connected to inverter chassis only into the house ground and nothing else. Auto switching on the inveters only occurs at zero crossing with a 20 mS delay. (we use 50Hz here)

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

The biggest problem is the split-phase house wiring system in North America, with its associated grounding/bonding.

[@crazysquirrel9425]

2000w AIN'T SMALL.... Toggle Switch, 5Pcs 9 Pin 2 Position Type Mini Toggle Switch 3PDT ON/ON 12mm 12mm 15A/250VAC You can isolate the grounds, hots, and neutrals with the flip of a switch. Even disconnect the ground from a house circuit with a little finesse. Pretty simple really.

[@crazysquirrel9425]

Additional - on those two 60v lines, use a transformer to get a single 120ac output.

[@Mitchs]

I can touch my ground wire sooo I don't think its live 60v?? wet hands

[@bsimic29]

6:12 that device should NOT have ground wire connected to any of the voltage output terminals, but should only have output ground directly wired to AC input terminal (C14 connector in this case). Tester should show "Ground fault" when connected to the output but show "Correct" if device is plugged into an AC outlet, regardless if the outlet was live or not and regardless if the device was in bypass or on-battery mode! Some of these devices have their ground input-output bridge connected to the NEGATIVE terminal of the battery. Keep that in mind if you want to play with external batteries, chargers, PV panels, MPPT converters etc. Or watch sparks or expensive white smoke coming from somewhere. All devices connected to this type of inverter should have their ground routed ONLY through the inverter, or the overvoltage protection circuit (usually installed inside of those devices) will not work (i.e. protect your sensitive equipment from voltage surges). If you connect the ground directly to the ground bus (i.e. in you electric box) it would still work great, but your equipment will not be protected.

[@bsimic29]

6:35 you should have checked with continuity tester whether output ground terminal is connected to the input ground terminal.

[@stanleybest8833]

I can't give you a thumbs up, nor a thumbs down, because you are not malicious. There are two standards. One sided 120 volts, and centertap. CENTERTAP means a center, like in a two winding transformer. The ground is in-between two 60 AC systems. This is an educated and fundamentally more solid system and you will find it in portable generators, radio installations, ham, military, and commercial radios, and older homes. The one side of a 240 volt system comes from Thomas Edison. Edison was a dumbbell. He never understood radio or voltage potential. What is important, is what system you have, your system is placarded so no electrician can force his favorite standard over the other standard. About my pure sine wave inverters: All three of my camper sized inverters have no connection on the AC side to battery ground. The very first thing I would do if I wanted to use my inverters in an existing house wiring, is disconnect the house from the utility wires altogether. You don't ground either side, but you earth the third wire, and not by bonding anything directly to the inverter. If I wire an off grid cabin, and it has an AC component, I will CENTERTAP it and placard it. It's the better system.

[@andydelle4509]

I think you are referring to a balanced AC system, under article 645 in the NEC. These are mostly found in TV, recording studios and scientific labs where electrical noise riding on the system ground is a problem contaminating the signal of interest. There are strict requirements for these systems and one of them is commercial use only, they should never be found in a residence. City electrical code departments hate dealing with them. In essence this is the same as the widely used North American split phase system except it's a 120v instead of 240v. As an EE who has a long career in the design of broadcast and other technical facilities, I have come across some of these systems. However today, they are largely obsolete in TV, music, and radio facilities as low level ground nose is not a problem in today's all digital systems.

[@stanleybest8833]

@andydelle4509 Simple solutions are golden and city electrical code departments are windbags. I have three, um, four AC generators, and all of them came wired floating, but a separate terminal spikes to ground. This is just like my pure sine wave inverters, that aren't wired like yours. The city won't be inspecting anybody's outhouse, and if they do, they had better bring their own paper.

[@andydelle4509]

@@stanleybest8833 I don't know what you are so defensively arguing about here? I just pointed out a commercial application of balanced power systems. Not saying anything about what is right or wrong.

[@edussantoz9034]

60v AC is much more easy to take than 120V thats why those inverters are manufactured in that way, theres no 220/240v inverters with center tap like this because theres no benefit in center taping those voltages, every AC inverter is isolate from the source nothing impedes you from hooking it in a "ground rod" ( wich is diferent from a ground wire) and that way you can hook protection switches, and they will work as normal i really dont know what is this guy complaining really 🤣

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Thanks, good to know!

[@Ryuuken24]

These burn out when the user exceed the specifications, or the unit can't handle the load for too long and explode due poor quality. You get what you pay for.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

Correct!

[@test-rj2vl]

So the solution is not to buy inverters from AliExpress?

[@y2ksw1]

That's bad.

[@Arwing-t3r]

Kinda pointless to wire an inverter to a house's grid unless you had a DC setup.

[@ReelClearMediaLLC]

I'm referring to wiring the AC 120v side of the inverter. I hooked my Growatt up through a transfer switch. In a power outage, I can switch over my fridge, lights, microwave, TV, computers... instead oif having to run extension cords.

[@vornamenachname762]

Wrong😂 If they do this with n, it is a full sinus. Probe will light in both poles😊🎉 AC in socet is only a pulsing DC‼️‼️‼️‼️ against earth n😂