New C64 solderless HDMI mod - LumaCode VIC-II-dizer

[@YARC-1981]

The VIC-20 version is currently PAL only. I just shipped an NTSC 6560-101 to c0pperdragon for him to reverse engineer the signaling, so an NTSC version for the VIC-20 should be coming soon.

[@theEIGHTBitBox]

Always looking forward to prop-up my hardware. These LumaCode things are great! Thank you for your detailed video.

[@Colin_Ames]

I love the fact that people are developing new hardware for old computers, to enable their use with modern displays. This particular solution looks a bit messy in its implementation, but with some care and a soldering iron I think the mess could be minimized. Fortunately the Pi Zero is available again, so no issue there.

[@SeanChYT]

I also didn't like the mess outside the computer. I would really like to see this with just a regular HDMI output on the C64 (including audio). My C64s have so many modern replacements inside that there is plenty of 5V for all of it. Usually my problem is that I have too little draw on the 5V line so the 5V voltage delivered from various old and modern power supplies is actually a bit high.

[@RandomBitzzz]

Your videos are timely as I was just getting set to do something like this. I bet test clips would work better than alligator clips. They grab and hold way better. That's what I used to wire up a solderless reset button to my 64 back in the day.

[@CaptainDangeax]

I don't need HDMI conversion. I own 2 LCD 1080p TVs providing the famous SCART / Péritel connector. The Composite / SVideo / YUV / RGBc converter is already behind this marvellous connector inside the TV set

[@skeggjoldgunnr3167]

Sweet! Now I've got a simple HDMI solution option. I will put an RCA jack in the back of my breadbin for the LumaCode. I've got the SIDFX and the VICII2 already so my NEW potential problem is one VICII signal going to the other VICII that is unpowered, as they would need to be joined to the center conductor of the RCA jack. Probably no issue, I will have to contact Chris Simpson to verify! VICII chips are the kind of thing I triple-check any tinkering / mods on.

[@storhemulen]

Using alligator clips is not really that fantastic. 😅

[@jameslangridge8849]

I think it's useful to test it's all working, but you're right it's probably not great as a permanent solution. you could cut the clips off and solder the wires, or just buy another wire with that two pin connector, for a more permanent install.

[@mikeh_nz]

But seems to work well from my experience. Eg the oscilloscope ground is a alligator clip and makes a good connection. But probably over many years in place a soldered connection will be less prone to oxidation, etc. I’ve found mine really good. Initially the video was too crisp for my liking (strange as normally I go for that sharpness extreme) - but found a softening option on the RgbToHdmi that is perfect for my liking - really sharp, but not looking super pixelated.

[@ville_syrjala]

Those small grabber clips with the hook would seem much better for this purpose than chunky alligator clips.

[@michaelcarey]

This is VERY cool! I think this setup has been put near the top of my want list. I'd probably do something a little nicer than the separate wires and clips... a little length of RG179 coax would be better. I appreciate the no-soldering path... but for those confident with wielding a soldering iron there are tidier options 🙂

[@SeanChYT]

I want to make this as tidy as possible, including audio. Do you have any recommendations? I can easily mod anything on a C64 and create custom PCBs so nothing is really out of the question, it just needs to be neat and have no extra stuff on the outside.

[@TheRetroChannel]

Yeah, it seems most people in the comments would prefer just soldering the wires but it's a nice option for people who don't have a soldering iron. I'm guessing my audience is skewed towards those who are handy with a soldering iron

[@mattrichardson4351]

This a great use for the pi zero .. maybe a usb headphone and mic dongle can be added to the pi zero for audio capture

[@bitoxic]

Hi! Would it be possible to include in the next revision of your RF modulator board 3 pins that a dupont cable can connect directly to the audio head jack? Coz I'd like the board to take the sound input from SidFx board and not from the original source the old RF modulator took the sound from. Any thoughts on that?

[@TheRetroChannel]

The next revision will still have audio from the C64 routed directly to the left channel of the 3.5mm jack, and a jumper to route that audio to the right channel as well (dual mono output). So it will be possible to route whatever you like to the right channel eg. lumacode, 2nd SID, composite video. I just had a look at the board and It could also be possible to cut the trace on the RF replacement to free up both left and right channels, the jumper on the board would then act as inputs for both channels.

[@leonkiriliuk]

Thanks for the video. UPDATE: This is actually based on the older component video FPGA project which uses an FPGA chip to partially emulate a VIC-2 to generate the data required by the RGB2HDMI. Going a bit further into the technical details of how it works would have been helpful. 8-p

[@danielmantione]

It's not an S-Video digitizer, its operation is actually quite advanced. It snoops the communication between VIC-II and the rest of the computer and then reconstructs the picture digitally.

[@leonkiriliuk]

@@danielmantione If you look at the Wiki, there's a detailed table of how the digitizer works. It takes the luma/chroma (Svideo) information from the Vic2 output (All 16 possible colors and 4 possible brightness levels) and digitizes it into a signal stream that goes into the RGB2HDMI. It's an optimized version of an SVideo 2 HDMI digitizer because it knows that there's only 16x4 different combinations and what they are.

[@danielmantione]

@@leonkiriliuk What I read in the wiki is: "The mod board passively listens to the digital data that is transfered between the VIC-II and the other components of the C64. From this digital information, an FPGA can reconstruct the exact pixel colors that the VIC-II is intended to display." I see the table, but that table doesn't say the device operates on analog signals. From what do you conclude it operates on analog signals?

[@leonkiriliuk]

@@danielmantione Look at the datasheet of the VIC-2. Luma/chroma is the only usable output signal from the VIC after it's done bitmap/sprite/etc manipulation. "Other components of the C64" can easily mean the RF port in the back. :) It's a wonderful trick that works. Keep in mind that what "red" means is defined in the RGB2HDMI. One should be able to manipulate that table much like on a Kawari.

[@danielmantione]

@@leonkiriliuk Indeed, luma/chroma is the only available output. Why do you think all those logic level converters are on the board? C0opperdragen went the hard way of snooping the data and address bus. It replicates the functionality of the VIC-II for a large part. Other components is for example data coming from the CPU and DRAM. Jan Beta has a video where he explains how it works internally.

[@DaveDoc1984]

That looks fantastic and is something I may look at doing soon. I did the RGB2HDMI with my Amiga 500 Plus but the fact I have to route the Audio separately is annoying. I hope someday there is a clean solution for tapping into the audio from the Computer (SID on the C64) so we could do most of this internally and just have 1 HDMI cable coming out of it.

[@copperdragon9286]

Audio for the RGBtoHDMI is indeed a highly anticipated feature. Maybe Ian can make it work someday.

[@TheStuffMade]

Looks interesting 👍 I wonder what the HDMI latency is like compared to something like the bare metal BMC64.

[@TheRetroChannel]

From what I can tell there is zero lag, or at least not enough for me to be able to notice it

[@TLang-el6sk]

For my understanding: The VIC-II-dizer sniffs on the digital lines (data, adress and so on)? So it must basically a nearly full reimplementation of a VIC II to reproduce the video signal or am I wrong? If I want to install a HDMI solution wouldn't it be better to route out digital signals to an HDMI signal generator? That should need six lines for the C64 (16 colours = 4 lines, clock and sync) and no fine tuning to synchronize the HDMI generator on it. Or do I get anything wrong? If you have one HDMI generator you share between different machines the LumaCode idea has its charme and saves mones, that's clear.

[@eightsprites]

looks like the leads could get routed out thru the rf channel switch. No need to cut anything really. Noone used that switch so the leads wont be in the way.

[@aaykut]

Hey @TheRetroChannel - where can we get that pigtail you are using? I think it would be very useful with my many external devices and accessories.

[@TheRetroChannel]

I made it myself years ago, and it's very janky inside 😄

[@brostenen]

This is awesomme..... But.... How do I install the lumaclip in my ATX64 machine? It is designed to not use any traditional modulator.

[@andreasimoncini]

Hi, congratulations first of all....I have a Commodore 128 and a Philips smart TV with HDMI output, my dream is to use my C128 with both 40 columns and 80 columns in RGBI and see them perfectly...not grainy or ugly but seeing everything in a nice and clean way for fonts and graphics is IT POSSIBLE????? Thank you

[@SeanChYT]

I will probably convert all my C64s to use this, but I really dislike the alligator clips and stuff outside of the C64. I don't mind soldering so I want to figure out a way to have a compact neat solution inside the C64 with just a regular HDMI output (including audio). RGBToHDMI doesn't support audio embedding? Would be nice to avoid having an extra PCB to embed the audio.

[@TheRetroChannel]

I left a reply to your other comment but it seems to have disappeared. You could mount everything internally, assuming you can find enough space. You would need an extra 300-400mA on the 5V rail to power everything so best not to try it with an original PSU. I've done it with the large Kawrai and HDMI audio embedder but that was easier as I didn't have to worry about squeezing the pi+RGBtoHDMI in there. Hopefully one day the RGBtoHDMI will support audio

[@SeanChYT]

@@TheRetroChannelThanks for your reply. I have replaced so many of the chips with modern replacements that I actually would like some more load on the 5V rail. :-) Right now I am close to overvoltage on both new and old PSUs because my C64s draw so little current. It would be nice to have a custom version of the RGB2HDMI with fixed HDMI port that could reside in the RF modulator spot, with the Pi Zero hanging out a bit "southward" if there is space in that direction. Regardless it will be interesting to follow the development with this lumacode type of HDMI. Thanks again for excellent videos!

[@mirabilis]

I don't understand why it needs a separate ground?

[@IvanEBC]

Sorry one more question. In regards to the RPI Zero... does it matter which one in terms of the RPI Zero W or the RPI Zero 2 W ?

[@TheRetroChannel]

I *think* it now works with all of them. But I only have the zero so haven't tried the others myself

[@copperdragon9286]

The Kawari will probably never work with the VIC-II-dizer because it generates its own clock signals and ignores the clock comming form the C64 itself. The VIC-II-dizer runs on the original clocks, so everything is totally out of synchronization.

[@TheRetroChannel]

There is the option on the Kawari boards to use the clock from the C64, but even with that it doesn't work with LumaCode. I doubt many people would expect it to work but I knew someone would ask if I didn't test it 😄

[@idudas80]

Hey, any idea it will be ever back on stock?

[@juzziepope]

Where can I get one , went to the store in the description, but it wasn’t there?

[@TheRetroChannel]

Check the link to c0pperdragons tindie store

[@IvanEBC]

Will this help with jailbars or do i need to look at one of your previous solutions (i believe a product you yourself made?)

[@TheRetroChannel]

This will provide a pixel perfect image with no jailbars. My solution involves replacing the RF modulator but still uses the analogue luma/chroma signals from the VIC-II, so it will always have a certain amount of noise

[@donaldblakley6796]

Sweet. That is amazing, looking forward to trying this myself. Thanks for sharing. U did a great video... some people's comments 🙄

[@donaldblakley6796]

May I ask you a c64 question ? I've been repairing these for a couple years now. I have like 16 idk. No oscilloscope yet..(dumbass) 250425 board. My favorite other than the 466

[@TheRetroChannel]

Is there a question in here? 😄

[@donaldblakley6796]

Lol. No, just wondering if you have ever seen a bad 6510 and cassette port bad in diag harness? Everything soldered except the usual vicII, sid and 8701. It does work perfect after changing a ram chip, I just don't like that weird fault. I socketed the cpu yesterday and ran tests in another board with that cpu.... no errors. Tried another cpu in problem board.. no change. Cleaned cassette port pins several times, and put in an arm sid... no change. Should probably leave it alone, but it bugs me lol. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

[@TheRetroChannel]

Have you tried using an actual datasette with it? The cassette port is handled by the CPU for the most part so that is why the diag reports a bad CPU. It could be an issue with the circuit that drives the cassette motor

[@donaldblakley6796]

Well... u nailed it. Datasette won't work. When I push play, it must inniatalze it's there bc screen changes light blue, but won't turn the tape, rewind it or anything. Datasette works perfectly fine on another board. Not much can be done then, can there?

As cool this is, how is this non destructive? You cut the RF modulators output. :) It can be non-destructive if those alligator clips gets replaced with a simple RCA jack.

[@TheRetroChannel]

It would be easy enough to resolder the cut wire. Does anyone use the RF output anymore? Using an RCA jack would require either routing it out of the case somehow, so you'd have a random RCA jack hanging out, or it would require removing the RF modulator. In which case you'd need to replace it with another solution or you will also lose the composite and luma/chroma out (and either way you'd lose the RF output)

[@DragonNova]

Is it possible to output VGA for an old PC CRT?

[@TheRetroChannel]

No, but maybe you could use a HDMI to VGA converter. Not sure if anyone has tried. The other option would be the full size Kawari which does output RGBHV at 15Khz or 31Khz but requires adding a connector to the kawari and running those signals out of the 64 case somewhere

[@Atari8man2011]

can it do 4:3 ratio? also is there any lag ?

[@TheRetroChannel]

There's no obvious lag, at least I couldn't detect any. As for aspect ratios, scaling etc, these are all configurable in the RGBtoHDMI settings

[@Rick_Todd]

Can you tweek the colour settings like you can in vice emulator . I prefer my picture to look a little softer like with the blur settings in vice ?

[@TheRetroChannel]

It is possible to tweak the palette settings on the RGBtoHDMI, and I'm pretty sure there are also a few filters to apply smoothing, scanlines etc

[@Rick_Todd]

Cheers@@TheRetroChannel

[@domramsey]

Don't take this personally, I love your video, but... I just find this thing so clunky and unnecessary. The videos I've seen talk about how simple it is, but you need 3-4 extra boards and you've got to source a Raspberry Pi. Then you need to power it all. Then you've got to figure out the complexities of RGB2HDMI and at the end of that, you're left with a rats nest of cables and boards. I'm sure there are cases where it's useful - like if you don't have a display that can take an S-Video input, and I appreciate that the tech behind it is all very clever. But for me, chasing that perfect image quality (that we never had back in the day) by throwing orders of magnitude more computing power than a C64 ever had at it is just a little silly. I think I'm just a grumpy old man. 👴🏻

[@storhemulen]

Totally agree.

[@larsenmats]

yeah, I'm kinda looking at this and thinking it's interesting, but kinda messy. I have two Turbo Chameleon 64 V2s myself which is an FPGA based cartridge that gives me VGA out, Cycle exact 1541 II, CRT, PRG, T64, REU, Turbo, running other cores, SID emulation via a 3.5mm out and alot of other features. VGA out is kinda blurry on it but acceptable and much better VS what you get from the AV port. I have a bunch of modern 5:4 LEDs which works nice on it. It's a very clean setup. You plug it in your real C64s cartridge port, plug the VGA cable in it and depending on if you wanna use the emulated SID or real SID you plug the speakers into the 3.5mm audio jack or plug an AV cable into your C64 to get the real SID. No other cables, power sources or accessories needed. Really clean and functional setup with a nice and intuitive menu system. If you wanted all these functions using rasperry pi based units it would be really messy in the end, requiring rasperry pi's, sd cards, power supplies, maybe 3D printed cases and ending up with a worse user experience. And even more expensive VS TC64 V2. So I don't know... Think I'm just gonna stick to my TC64 V2s for now. But It's very interesting and cool that they make stuff like this.

[@charlybrown9024]

I agree. It is a good exercise on technology but not a solution I would put on my setup.

[@larsenmats]

Hell, as soon as your starting to add a bunch of rasperry pi units it's emulation anyway. So even a the TheC64 (C64 maxi) could be considered. It's a usable and clean setup. I have a the TheC64 and two the TheVIC20s. They are based on emulation but very usable and practical with an easy to use menu system. And savestates is a nice sideeffect of emulation.

[@Papierzeit]

Let's put it this way, it's exciting what can still be done technically today, but if you have a CRT, you don't need all that. Another old man spoke, hi hi hi.

[@FairLight1337]

One of these was used at the X2024 party and the Fairlight demos 13:37 had a glitch in the current firmware. Normal Svideo worked fine but in the FLESCOS part, there was a column of sprites that didn't show. So it wasn't the code, and it wasn't the machine as it worked fine over Svideo. Just over 12 minutes into this one... kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4m9enV4mNuGrc0

[@TheRetroChannel]

Interesting, it may be worth reporting on the issue on c0pperdragon's GitHub.

[@gregjarvis1232]

Do you know if anyone is making 1 of these boards for the Amiga 500?

[@TheRetroChannel]

Pretty sure a similar option for the A500 already exists. Have a look at the RGBtoHDMI GitHub page

[@doctordapp]

Iike it that you use a computer to generate the video which is literally over 1000 times faster as the computer where you use it for! 😂😂😂😂

[@shangrilai1990]

🍪

[@TheRetroChannel]

💅🅰️💩 😉

[@wimwiddershins]

😭👾🤮

[@3dtexan890]

There is easier ways to do this without all the mods. Just sayin.