New Denon AV Receivers 2022-23 vs Marantz Cinema - AHR-A1H, AVR-X3800H, AVR-X4800H, AVR-X2800H +more

[@trauma50disaster1]

Bought the 3800 yesterday, should arrive Friday and I'm excited to finally move up to this higher level for me. I would have already moved up to this level a few years ago but was waiting for 2.1 to be sorted completely. I recently found your channel and it's the best for me, I like the detailed comparisons and I just "get" the way you process and display things. I'm going to have fun learning how to play with this beast!

[@ripewave]

Congratulations on your purchase. Yes - It does seem like a safe time to purchase a fully enabled HDMI 2.1 AV Receiver. I am happy to hear that you are finding value with this style of product comparison. Hope you enjoy your new X3800! - Jon

[@danielallopenna2326]

Not willing to pay more for Marantz. Denon X3800H is the sweet spot now that it includes Auro 3D. Cheers!

[@ripewave]

Daniel - I agree, Denon provides more value and the X3800H has a nice balance of features. -Jon

[@jb.2986]

Fantastic comparison Jon once again. Nice to see the Auro 3D upgrade for the Cinema 50 & 3800 series too.

[@ripewave]

JB - Thanks for the feedback. I too am happy to see additional features get added at the Cinema 50 and X3800 price point. -Jon

[@isaiahfurrow7414]

Just recently got the 960 , as my 90s Sony unit died....I had been researching for a while, and I'm really happy with this unit so far... having real modern surround instead of the 90s Dolby tech makes watching a much different experience. Only a 5.1 system for now, amd not a great one...but they work much better now than they did before. I also like that I can have a 2nd monitor in my kitchen for when I'm cooking and such, can keep better tabs on the game/race/KZbin etc... Kinda relieved that I won't really miss out on much for my uses, for now... eventually I will likely move up to the 3800 level unit or maybe higher, if I end up wanting 7.2.4 or something.... and preamp outputs, etc... but for now this S960H is plenty for my small-ish space.... Cheers, and thanks for the video.

[@ripewave]

Thanks for sharing your experience as someone who has recently modernized after decades with the same Sony receiver. Glad the move has served you well for your intended environment and speaker layout.-Jon

[@isaiahfurrow7414]

@@ripewave next upgrade is new speakers, this ancient Bose Acoustimass 10 works, but I think music and stuff will be much more enjoyable with something new... Looking at possibly Polk or Klipsch, but I need the L and R to be somewhat small, one will have to fit into a built in shelf next to my TV, and many bookshelf speakers are too large. Any suggestions?

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

Image scaling has always been a really important feature in a receiver, as have been low latency game modes, I feel the nostalgia for retro gaming is a large market, perhaps even as large as past gaming markets, even if people don’t actively play their old consoles, the appeal of retro game compatibility is so fundamentally ingrained as a checkmark in the excitement of youth’s memory. I think people want it, whether they use it or not. In the area of retro image scaling, there is allot of technical hurdles and nuances which are opportunities of innovation and product differentiation. This video gives a good insight into how scaling techniques are not all created equal. Whether TV manufacturers or Receiver manufacturers want to implement them is their decision to make. But you cant use either without the inputs, meaning you’d have to use a separate device like the retrotink 5x. Receivers aren’t separates, they’re all in one, so consider it a potential feature. Maybe license it or buy it from the creator of the retro tink. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKepq5akbbN2mJY

[@albertelazar4069]

John the new flagship Denon AVR-A1H has a new DAC, which is now the ESS "ES9018K2M" which is still a consumer grade DAC, not the PRO version unfortunately.

[@ripewave]

Thanks for sharing - hard to come by detail.-Jon

[@BigBadBunnyGod]

I have the A1H. Overal very pleased with it

[@frankdiaz4913]

Great info really thorough! A couple of minor corrections though. 1. The x2800h does not have 7.2 pre-outs like the Marantz Cinema 60 which is why it does not have a trigger output. 2. The x8500ha has a total of 17 channels of outputs when including the subwoofer channels, with only 13 amplification channels. 3. That makes the x8500ha capable of 9.2.6. You had 9.2.2 on your graphic. 4. Also I believe the warranty is shorter than 3 years for the non X receivers.

[@ripewave]

Frank - Thanks so much. I did miss a few items. 1- I see clearly from the back photo of the x2800h - no 7.1 pre-outs. 2/3- While I like the flexibility they provide, it makes it hard to follow. I physically count 15 speaker terminals and 15 .2 pre-outs connections on the x8500ha. However, I understand that only 13 channels may be configured at a given time to power speakers directly. The manual only covers up to 13.1 (13.2 if you count the extra independent sub) - event in pre-amp mode. Are you aware of a 15.2 mode the x8500ha supports? My intent is to capture the maximum active configuration. From the manual they show: 9.2.4 - page 66 7.2.6 - page 64, 65, 68 They do show a hybrid 15.1 setup with two modes of configuration. With Atmos programs it runs 7.2.6 (3x2 on ceiling) and with Auro-3D it runs 7.2.6 (3 front heights, 1 top center, 2 rear heights). No option I know of to run 15.2 simultaneously with the x8500ha. 4- I believe the warranty policy may vary country to country. Jon

[@nebtheweb8885]

@@ripewave on one of your slides the Marantz prices are significantly higher than what you listed. Audio Advice is listing the Marantz Cinema 60 at $1,700, the Cinema 50 at $2,500, and the Cinema 40 at $3,500 respectively.

[@ripewave]

Where are you seeing a difference? I just scanned the video and mine are only $1 different - for example Cinema 50 I have as $2,499 vs your $2,500. I have the prices on many slides so perhaps I missed one - can you help me find the error? -Jon

[@nebtheweb8885]

@@ripewave in your video at 36:49 your slide lists lower prices for the Marantz stuff.

[@ripewave]

Nuts - you are right. I was looking at the Marantz video, but the problem I see now is with the Denon video. Somehow the column data got inserted wrong. Earlier in the video the values should be correct. Thanks again for finding and reporting. -Jon

[@MultiWayland]

Thank you very much ( Denon X3800H ) is for me going to order it from Denon tonight ( thank you again ) you was a great help !

[@timtorkelson7201]

Have a Denton AVR X4800H sitting downstairs waiting to be hooked up to my Klipsch speaker system,can’t wait

[@ripewave]

Hope that Denon AVR X4800H is working out well for you. -Jon

[@iyona14granturismogt6gtspo7]

My Denon X4500h has 4 Sharc processors and I love the sound.

[@1Aquadon]

Thanks Jon .. awesome info as always!! thinking of going with AVR-A1H.. or AV10.. but waiting to hear about Dirac Live Bass implementation before i pull the trigger!!

[@offgridsolaruk843]

For those Home Cinema who use a 3D projector, don't forget if you are still rocking 3D occasionally, then check pass through support on new amps

[@ripewave]

Great tip - thanks for sharing, that setting is important. -Jon

[@madcrabber1113]

I have 5 Denon avrs from budget to the 6700h dating back to 2009 all of which still work. I prefer the user interface to the Yamaha that I have and the Onkyo that I had. I also like the pricing comparatively speaking.

[@ripewave]

I do feel that the user interfaces can make the difference as to what AVR I prefer. -Jon

[@DONALD-MAGA]

I just received the X4800H and have a couple of issues with it. First, the subwoofer setup in Audyssey does not work. The on screen setup tells you to turn up the subwoofer to 75db but it stays at 30db on screen no matter how high the volume is in the subwoofer. Secondly. I get frequent audio drops that are only a split second while watching TV on the ARC. I will return it if Denon doesn’t have a fix. BTW, it is running the latest firmware.

[@dtasca3366]

I’ve been without an av receiver for about a year. I was waiting for this round of new products Happy with the specs for the most part but not the price increases which are even more here in Canada But I will most likely purchase the 4800h as it best meets my needs and price. Excellent summary once again. Will you update the info on the DACs once you know the details? Thx again

[@ripewave]

Sorry for the delay... I try to update the tables when new data comes in. -Jon

[@psyphonyxaudio]

Looking at exchanging my X6700H for the x3800H.

[@techsamurai11]

The 4800h with a 5 year warranty, a toroidal transformer, and Marantz musicality at $2,500 would have been the ideal product. It's a no-brainer and it would fit into almost all cabinets. For all bells and whistles (improved electronics, copper chassis, better fascia although the old design in silver and gold are fine as long as they're offered in the US), they could stretch that to $2,800. That would be a killer product because it'd be hard to go Rotel for 2 channel (forget AVR) when you can bi-amp with the Denon and have room correction and bass management and you could get away without an external amp and have a world class system. Essentially a Denon version of the Marantz SR 8012 at $3,000 before the triple price hike to $4,000.

[@trauma50disaster1]

I mean all right on, but that bit about "world class system."

[@techsamurai11]

@@trauma50disaster1 Well, world class by non-Trinnov standards.

[@ripewave]

Nice reimagination of the new line. I often wish I could step in as a product manager for these companies and come up with new combinations of features and prices that would please a larger population. -Jon

[@ripewave]

Yes- There are different price points to aim for. I find $5,000 a bit of a challenge - requires saving up for a while. The under $3,000 mark is still an investment, but easier to obtain. -Jon

[@techsamurai11]

@@ripewave Agreed, once you cross $2,500 there should be 1 or 2 options there and they need to be top of the line.

[@o.c.g.m9426]

If your basic. You can get the Emotiva MC1 for $800 then add $700 A7(90wpc) for bedlayer & $560 A4 for heights. For $2100, you have a nice Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 set up. If only I wouldve known last yr what I know now

[@JonMoralesLA]

Totally agree with you. My thing is that I really want Auro 3D! None of the “budget” Preprocessors have Auro 3D. So basically I have the same idea to do the external amplification and just am considering the Denon 3800h as being a more expensive pre-pro where I get Auro 3D and maybe even Dirac Live if I’m willing to pay up for the paid upgrade.

[@droidzhunterz6861]

But then you are giving your heights more Watts per channel than the mains

[@Boxkerp]

I'm not sure if I understood the Cedia Marantz seminar correctly, but I think they were saying that their new processor can let you do the recommended speaker layout for Atmos, DTS, and Auro 3D and the unit will switch automatically switch to the matching codec depending on the bitstream. Again, if I understood them correctly and that is the case, I wonder if the new Denon A1H will have the same feature.

[@ripewave]

I believe you are correct as I understand you can establish codec-based profiles to automatically switch speaker layouts and other settings when a codec is detected (Atmos, DTS, Auro3D). I will know better when I get the Cinema 50 in house to review. The A1H should support as the flagship of Denon - Jon

[@عبرالرحمنسعود]

Hi.. When will the next update be released for the avr-x3800h device.. to support 360 reality audio??. Please respond to me 🙏🙏

[@Deltax5]

Will there be a nice 1 thousand dolor receiver for 2023? Something to upgrade my receiver from 2016. doesn't have Earc. just 4k 60hz. no hdr, no 120 hz.

[@BFArch0n]

Still got my 3600h I paid $800 nee for working perfectly. Missing nothing.

[@LuisPeris]

Hi, very good video. Taking price apart, which avr would choose cinema 40 or Denon 4800? Right now i have a Nad T758 v3i and Im thinking to upgrade Nad for Denon 4800 or Marantz cinema 40 to give the power enough to speakers. I have 7 Beringer 2031p (150w 4ohms), 4 dynavoice fx4 with pre-amp and a 15 inches Klipsch subwoofer. Here on my zone, i can get Marantz at the same price as Denon, thats why I am asking which to choose taking apart the price. Thanks in advance.

[@ripewave]

That is a tough call. You may want to focus more the sound signature vs the amplifier sections. I am told the Denon is more of a flat sound and the Marantz is more warm. I feel my Marantz Cinema 50 sounds okay is lacking liveliness in comparison to other product I have. That I judge using the same external amps and speakers with an A/B switch. The Denon and Marantz are more modern feature rich then the NAD. NAD just hasn’t kept up with technology despite their modular approach. Would like to see them offer new boards every few years. You may find moving from NAD to Denon or Marantz a step down in performance despite giving you more capabilities.-Jon

[@quarashiseal]

hi, which would you personally prefer of the two receivers? Denon 3800 or Pioneer 505? I will have a hegel h190 stereo amplifier on the fronts. I don't listen to music through the receiver. I have an xbox.

[@xmj6830]

41% increase over the AVR-X8500H is grossly exaggerated and tend to be on the greedy side. Insane.

[@ripewave]

I believe so. -Jon

[@jarnhand266]

Here in Norway, the Denon S970H and the X2800H are about the same price, is there any reason to buy the S970H over the X2800H?

[@offgridsolaruk843]

More processing features and 3D pass through

[@ulises3113]

Hey, thank your work. I has Denon 3800 ans Onkyo rz50. I finally ended Up chosing Onkyo. More impact, larger image. Infound Onkyo more cinema

[@ripewave]

I think you made a good choice. I was very pleased with the Onkyo TX-RZ50

[@msironen]

Looking to make the jump from a Denon 2200 to either Denon 3800 or Marantz Cinema 50. Pricing is fairly close in Finland (at least the currently quoted pre-order prices), 1999e vs 1799e. I don't really need the Marantz-specific features for anything but gosh the Denon design is so tired at this point. Even the 3800 looks basically the same as my aging 2200 down to the exact same remote, so I might end up paying the extra couple hundred just to get a fresh look that was updated in this decade.

[@ripewave]

Matti, Was the Denon AVR-X2200 from around 2015? or earlier? Yes - the design looks tired now (not bad, but tired). It appears their strategy to influence buyers to pay more for the Marantz mainly for looks will pay off. I pre-ordered the Cinema 50 for first-hand review. -Jon

[@msironen]

@@ripewave Yep, I got it in September 2015.

[@techsamurai11]

Why would you be upgrading to a new AVR? Is it not working?

[@techsamurai11]

@@ripewave Is Marantz finally offering the silver versions in the US? I've talked to them about the fact that it's unfair to their US customer base to not have a choice but they kept insisting that no one in the States could possibly want gold or silver components except when they pay $8,000 for the PM-11S1 to which I replied "I clearly do so make one just for me then!"😁 I suppose we also like paying 100% more than other countries for the same models as someone bought the SR7015 recently for $1,600 in Europe new.

[@msironen]

@@techsamurai11 No good reason, tbh. The Denon 2200 can't handle my PS5 but I can just plug that directly to the TV and get sound out via ARC. Moved house recently though and been upgrading things here and there, and the silver/white Marantz would just go with my new white-ish tv stand + speaker setup sooo nicely instead of that bland black box I have now. But definitely not good enough reason to throw 2 grand at it...😭

[@Anavllama]

Without a component breakdown between Cinema 50 and Denon Xr3800H, its hard to distinguish the two..........

[@ivarskailand1745]

Hey Ripewave! Would you say that the Denon AVR-X3800H or the Marantz Cinema 60 is the better buy? (Marantz 60 1300$ vs Denon x3800h 1700$ Norway prices)

[@JonMoralesLA]

These two are quite different in features. The Marantz 60 is only 7 channels with 7 pre outs. It also lacks Auro 3D and has two sub outs that I don’t think can be individually adjusted. The Denon 3800 has 9 channels out but has preprocessor out for 11 channels if you add an external amp to drive the extra channels. 3800 also has Auro 3D and 4 individually adjustable subwoofer outputs. The 3800 here is more fully equipped for sure. 3800 also will get the Dirac Live paid upgrade capability in March 2023.

[@Fotoklasika]

Hello, how much watts per chanell using Denon 3800H if i have external power amp for stereo speakers (preouts)? Same 74w or 105wx9:) Thank you

[@razhua]

how about a comparison of their sound as at the end is what's important. I hear from different people that the marantz sound slightly better not sure if that justifies the higher price.

[@ripewave]

I agree that is missing and needed. I plan I getting a Denon 3800 to compare directly against the Cinema 50. Those are positioned the same albeit the Denon model is at a lower cost. -Jon

[@razhua]

@@ripewave Thank you ! thanks so much for your response, I hope I figure that one out, Im in the los angels ca area and I'm in the market for either of those receiver. I also enjoy stereo mode so I'm trying to find a compromise between surround and stereo. Ill be following your channel to get better education about sound systems. Thank You

[@ripewave]

Glad this channel has been helpful- I also learn from viewers such as you.-Jon

[@BaxxterBTC]

How does it play in stereo? 4800H

[@ripewave]

The 4800h plays well in stereo - 1 tier below what I have heard from home theater components. Still pleasing even though. -Jon

[@richardr5888]

I think the slide for the X3700H is wrong. My 3700 looks exactly like the 3800 in the slide. I think the round buttons on front are from the S series. Not a biggie.

[@TheLevitatingChin]

No 6800 this time around?

[@ripewave]

At least for now. It seems that with the latest launches from Denon and Marantz a few models were skipped including a replacement for the AVR-X6700H. Not sure the strategy - whether they are testing to see if there still is demand or they are holding to ensure they have models to release in 2023 without a major development effort. -Jon

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

The Yen has depreciated 30% against the dollar this year, yet the price of the flagship receivers made in Shirakawa are so full of pork and fat that they’re basically Charshu bacon. I think they either play a generous discount game into these economics or they choose the dark side of greedy margins. The choice is as clear as the dashi of a settled miso soup. With generosity comes sales, and marketshare.

[@ripewave]

Interesting to compare latest pricing in relation to currency valuations. These are the first Denon / Marantz release since new Masimo ownership. Surely Masimo has a say in the profits they want to see from this new business unit.-Jon

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

@@ripewave I see, I guess we’ll just have to wait for Massimo to get a read on what their actual pricing power is.

[@diebackmischung503]

The x2800h isnt worth the +300bucks imo (much less connectivity options) Secured a x2700h knowing it will be a PITA to get soon

[@skolvikings5263]

Biggest upgrade for the s570bt is the hdmi 2.1 for gaming, very important.

[@ripewave]

Yes I would say this is largely a HDMI 2.1 upgrade with the styling changes.-Jon

[@ebarbie5016]

Too bad they did nothing to improve HEOS. Still no lossless music streaming services support (i.e. idal/Deezer HIFI), music playback queue limited to 300 songs only, no Atmos or multichannel FLAC support either, no Roon certification (Roon tested = 48kHz airplay 2 quality). If you go with Denon/Marantz, better also get a decent music streamer such as the Bluesound Node...

[@ripewave]

While it would be nice to have everything in one unit, I believe that music streaming is best handled as an external device. -Jon

[@AdamKoblenz]

Question! I have a 4400h and was thinking of upgrading to the 6700h in order to get (1) pre amp mode, (2) Auro 3D with surround backs engaged, and (3) potential for more speakers. Now I'm seeing this 4800h, which I'm sure will do pre amp mode, will process more channels than the 4400h and will also include Dirac Live in March. So the last piece is Auro 3D: does anyone know if the 4800h will do Auro 3D with the surround backs engaged? That's the last box I'd have to tick... it's interesting Denon isn't making a 6800, no?

[@JonMoralesLA]

I don’t know where I saw it, but I read somewhere that the 3800 now has surround backs on during Auro 3D. So I think they fixed that issue with the newer line. I have the 3800 (just installed it yesterday) but I don’t have surround backs to test this out for you to verify.

[@johndaugaard6878]

Hmmm ,wonder why they skip the composite

[@ripewave]

For several reasons which some disagree with. 1 - Xbox 360 (2005), PS3 (2006), WiiU (2012) and Blu-ray players (2006) had HDMI ports when released - 10+ years. 2 - space is running out on the back of the AVRs and processors 3 - one less interface to test 4 - Composite to hdmi adapters are as low as $10 on Amazon 5 - Component to hdmi adapters are as low as $20 on Amazon Jon

[@Hiroj926]

Will it have the same sound carakter like the old AVC A1XVA, all new models are in sound flat... even the a110. so someone can tell me the sound of this version.

[@sasasotirovic648]

Bravo

[@ripewave]

Thank you - Jon

[@djenk12345]

i heard that the chips and dac on the 4800h is worse then the older 3800h

[@ripewave]

That seems to be the case. While I don't have evidence to confirm (I have limited knowledge of the prior generations), several have reported the same. -Jon

[@djenk12345]

I saw a video some time ago after the launch of the 4800h where it was measured between the amps but it disappeared @@ripewave

[@flappospammo]

The remote for the x2800 is abysmal, lightweight like a toy and not backlit

[@EverythingHomeTheater]

Forgot to mention that all of this year's models I've been in amorrance have four independent subwoofer outputs on the back

[@ripewave]

Yes for the Denon AVR-X3800H and Marantz Cinema 50 on up - but not the models below those. -Jon

[@wezzman1]

M&D is taking the pi$$ with those prices higher up the models....you can get a lot better for cheaper. I knew they would do this, add all input 8K board a hike the prise...no thanks.

[@ripewave]

I think we will need to put together a full market comparison to compare price vs. feature set. My guess is that Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra (perhaps some of the Yamaha models too) AV Receivers are the most cost friendly brands. -Jon

[@wezzman1]

@@ripewave that will be a great video to do, can't wait. These video helped me to narrow down the AVR I'll buying soon... Yamaha a8a or arcam 21. Not a fan of D&M stuff.

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

I’m a fan of Marantz, I feel it’s the coolest sounding name of all the brands. It’s the brand I want to say when talking to people about my hobby and the things I’m excited about. But there’s really no value added here over the Denon. It makes the Marantz Brand look like a theft for suckers, which is then shameful for me to tell my friends. Part of what makes a brand powerful and desirable is that it’s the smart choice, the best overall value. I’m not feeling that at all. The 3800 feels kind of like that, but very little in this lineup is really exciting. It’s nice to see 7.4.8 and 9.4.6 The loss of multi channel input is a real drag. But the loss of the RCA video is just insane. There’s only two real input formats, RCA and HDMi. How could they walk away from even having a single yellow RCA video input? Component sure, but the yellow? And no HDMi on the front? Front inputs are so valuable, I would highly suggest a red white yellow RCA and HDMi input on the front for when you dust off the old home movies or just need to plug something in temporarily. And at least one RCA video input on the back for long term installation of retro game consoles. Really the front panel should have RCA, S video, component, HDMi, USB-A, USB-B and USB-C. And then yellow RCA video inputs on at least 3 rear inputs, but honestly all RCA red and white inputs should just have a yellow with them. Component and S video on the back are indeed obsolete, they should be relegated to the front for when old devices are plugged in once in a while. On a flagship model, there’s nothing wrong with a little ethernet router for other devices to use, or display port 2.0 as an input option. Of course an FM tuner, and a Phono input are essential. RCA video is the same. If you really want to trim down the budget option give it 3 hdmi inputs and nothing else. But everything in the midtier and up should have basic backwards compatibility. Also, I couldn’t help but notice the Marantz 8015, 7015 etc, were missing from the lineup. In my world, Dirac, Auro 3D, RCA video, and a larger screen on the faceplate are premium features. A tiny porthole with no front inputs just seems stupid. They’re asking for thousands of dollars on these and they can’t even let me play a Nintendo 64 on it? If someone brings something over I have to crawl back behind everything to plug it in? Those front inputs are really essential features. I wish there was more here that excites me, but it just looks like a bunch of boxes that are holding out on features so they can milk more money. Low end doesn’t have enough features to offer good value, high end is priced too high. Things like Dirac and Auro 3D should be standard across the whole lineup. The chip probably costs much less than $100 but the difference in the models is $1000+ no thanks guys. That Marantz remote is an improvement, but not a hundreds of dollars premium, hundreds of dollars can buy some pretty stellar universal remotes that would make that marantz remote look like a popsicle stick. Speaking of which, first party app control is worth mentioning, although probably hard to keep up with in the database as old versions get updated. Marantz and Denon should make that easy on you and keep a webpage of apps and version compatibility across models.

[@ripewave]

Thanks once again for providing detailed feedback. While it is difficult for these companies to successfully bridge generations of technologies, I feel that your request to maintain a token input is fair. As someone who has spent a few years in product manager (in a different industry), these were decisions I often had to make. My guidance to Denon/Marantz, who is has one of the largest receiver portfolio out there, is to create some models that tailor to legacy support, and some models that drop the least used input types. While I have lived through S-Video, Component and Composite video, I haven't used any of those for 20 years now - so I am the other type of buyer. If back panel space becomes limited (e.g. the AVR-A1H with 15 amps, and XLR connections doesn't have much room for additions.) If so, another approach would be for them to offer an external analog to HDMI video converter for those who need it. Your point of having an HDMI port on the front is practical. There are times when I need to add a temporary connection and that would be handy. I have a Samsung TV with an external connector breakout box and that is very handy. I think that the upgrade cost for Dirac would be easier to manage if the base cost of these AV Receivers was lower. Then only who want the enhanced calibration could purchase. They source from a third-party, so we get hit regardless. Ultimately, it comes down to the cost of Denon/Marantz vs. the competition. Onkyo has included Dirac and at a lower overall price - so if they can do it, why can't Denon/Marantz? (answer - it was their choice to capture higher margins). Sometimes I like using the dedicated remote vs. the universal remote. But that is table stakes - no added upsell value. First party app control - I believe you referring to streaming apps? I am curious if I will prefer the built-in streaming apps the HEOS provides or my Apple TV. I have a Cinema 50 on pre-order for review. -Jon

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

@@ripewave I feel component video consumes a ton of unnecessary space, but to not have a single yellow composite RCA jack the size of a pencil eraser seems rather odd. I think theres a market for a dedicated legacy themed product, one with legacy inputs and low latency 8k scaling. Which is separates territory, the whole idea of a receiver is that it does it all, it receives all inputs. It takes the roll of the pre-amp (receiver of inputs and input volume adjustment) and combines it with a power amp in one box. So maybe it’s time for a separate home-theater style pre-amp with legacy inputs. My home setup has 4 legacy game consoles all at the ready, and all of them use RCA. One has S-video as an option. The rest is HDMi. Hopefully with these beefy Marantz Magins they’ll expand their R&D and really be able to differentiate themselves from the banal stagnation of the home theater receiver industry. We have Storm, Kaleidascape, Trinnov, NAD, and Emotiva all bringing rather unique character. But then nearly identical feel and features from Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, and Sony. It’s like they’ve been suffering a race to the bottom, so maybe higher margins will break that cycle among those brands. Onkyo should do the same by letting Pioneer and Integra to diverge more, I’m hopeful (almost excited) to see their next generation after their rough period. High margins are fine, I’m not going to pay them, but if they make the brand stronger and more compelling from investments in innovation then I’m all for it.

[@SwirlingDragonMist]

I hate to come off so negative in my commentary, it’s just not compelling for me this cycle. Maybe a symptom of the pandemic, or a technological plateau hedged in by chip shortages, reshoring supply chains, AKM’s fire, HDMi 2.1 issues, and next year will be much stronger when more of the business is predictable, and more technologies come online that drive a new upgrade cycle. If streaming ever gets past dolby digital plus, that would be great.

[@ripewave]

I think it all depends where each of us are in our cycles. If you bought something new in the last few years, it is a tougher sell. I do see things starting to turn. Once all brands have HDMI 2.1 boards they can focus on other differentiating features. -Jon

[@jamienaquin3918]

I have the Marantz 6015, I purchased it at $2099, up $400 from the original price. I also prefer the Marantz look and sound since I'm a music first listener. That said, Marantz is price gouging in comparison. Denon has gone up in price but not nearly as much. When it's time to upgrade again I plan on switching to Denon or moving on to Nad or Arcam.

[@jameskirkpatrick361]

Minor correction - Cinema 40 does not include 7.1 multi-channel in. In fact none of the Marantz's include 7.1 multi-channel in, not even the AV10 from what I can tell. Owning the Cinema 40 for 45 days, it's great gear. But I'm still mulling whether it's worth an extra $1K over the Denon AVR-X4800H, which is literally an identical unit with only a few exceptions: (1) remote control is sleeker and backlit on Marantz; (2) Marantz has IR "flasher" 3.5mm input which is great because I use an IR repeater, and can just connect a 3.5mm mono jack from the repeater to the back of the unit. This avoids the need to place one of those arcane stick-on IR flashers on the front panel; (3) Marantz headphone jack is directly accessible on front panel, whereas Denon hides theirs behind the front door. Then of course there are the cosmetic differences. If mine were out in the open, I'd probably pay the extra for the Marantz for the wife-pleasing factor. But mine is in a cabinet, so the ugly Denon wouldn't be a big deal. Tough call...

[@Edward135i]

14:34 it's more like a $500 price increase considering that the 3700 launched at $1199.

[@ripewave]

Great point. There was that mid-cycle increase you noted.-Jon

[@DeanGalli-r9n]

Denon is ugly and over 20 years old, boring design!

[@ripewave]

I do find it odd that Denon has yet to update its cosmetics- but many who stick to the brand wouldn’t change it. -Jon

[@jarnhand266]

Absurdly super fantastic comparison!!11oneoneone :) Must check if you got this for Yamaha also :)

[@ripewave]

Last Yamaha AV Receiver video was August 2021 - Yamaha 2021 8K Aventage AV Receivers kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHLWqqGDbMaWjcU

[@jarnhand266]

@@ripewave The new firmware for Yamaha, should now have fixed the HDMI 2.1 issues/missing features, but I do not know for sure.