NEW!: How to DOUBLE Your Starter Strength in 6 Days (or Less!)

[@Beentherebefore1]

The BEST explanation of changing ratio to time to build starter strength. The outcome of better yeast flavor is astounding. Answered all of my questions. Cannot wait to see baking.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! This was really a revelation for me. I do it all the time now. If I keep my starter in the fridge for a week at a time, I'll take it out and do three or four high-ratio, peak-to-peak feedings, and the results are extraordinary. Check out the full episode where I use this starter to bake and then compare it to a prior bake using my tired, weak starter. It is Episode 6 of the When is Bulk Fermentation Done series. Thanks!

[@justynakavi407]

Thank you so much for this video. I am a beginner and Im running out of motivation. This was very clear and very helpful analogies. I will keep trying.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@matthewrick]

Great presentation! I’ve never seen your content before but I dig your analytical approach! Subscribed.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks! Also check out my new website at thesourdoughjourney.com.

[@KB-ih7dg]

What an amazing class great teacher Can’t thank you enough for the scientific test

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback.

[@lisaballew9133]

Love, L❤VE your videos! They are both entertaining and very informative! I appreciate the shared knowledge from the books you've read and your own experience and experiments. (Love the Sourdough Lab in your house). Thank you for making them! Please bear with me.... My starter is 9 weeks old, ½ King Arthur unbleached bread flour and ½ organic whole wheat Einkorn (Jovial brand). Other than the false rise on day 2, my starter has only "more than" doubled twice. It was consistently doubling, or close to doubling at peak, for about 5 weeks. I have not yet felt it was strong enough to actually make sourdough bread with. But I have made many discard recipes that have turned out very well. However, over the last 2 weeks, or so, my starter has slowed to almost a complete stop. Very little bubbling and only maybe 20 - 30 % of a rise. Very little rising and it's barely even bubbling. My starter has not once ever produced Hooch or water separation. So far, I have always used a 1.1.1 or a 1.2.2 feeding. I am using filtered water. It's the middle of summer and I keep my A/C on 77°. I put it in the fridge for 5 days about 3 weeks ago, otherwise, its on the counter. And most of the time, it smells like gym, socks and acetone. It has gone to various wine or boozy smells, but only a couple of times has it achieved that wonderful sweet, yeasty smell that everyone talks about. Any suggestions and advice you can give me is greatly appreciated!!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Sounds like it is immature and out of balance of you are still getting those off odors. I’d experiment with different feeding ratios and different feeding times. Try a higher feeding ratio (1:2:2 or 1:3:3) and then try discarding and feeding shortly after it peaks.

[@colum6]

I watched this video last night thinking I was going to follow the directions. I had a starter that was not doing much. About three weeks old, it was taking 12-15 hours to double. King Arthur APF. Started out 50/50 with Dark Rye but over the last couple of weeks I've only added the King Arthur APF. Baked Saturday and was still having rising issues. I took a little starter out and set aside in a pint jar; the main body was in a quart jar. I added a little flour and water to the pint jar thinking I'd just get rid of it; it was probably 150 grams total at best and probably less. The larger jar was easily double that amount. Well over a few hours, like 4-6, it appeared the smaller jar doubled but the larger jar hardly increase at all. By midnight last night, still having not feed it again, the small jar was about to climb out of the pint jar. Very active; domed. I cleaned out the large jar and transferred the starter from the pint jar to the large jar. By morning it had doubled again with no feeding. Thinking I had a great starter, I decided to adopt it. Named it Eigyr, Welsh for King Arther's Mother "Igraine". Did a 1:1:1 mix this morning with only the APF totally 150grams. Within 2 hours, the starter had doubled. At four hours it's about an inch from the top of the jar. It's wild. Not sure what happened but I think I'm going to have to rename this Morgana. Can a starter be too active? Why would the smaller amount take off while the larger amount was a dud? Great videos by the way!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I can’t say for certain. Sometimes a little more or less water will help the starter show its rise more. I’m not sure how accurately you’re measuring everything. Also, a smaller mass in the small jar will heat up to room temperature more quickly. Temperature has a huge impact on starter activity (more than anything else). Thanks for the info and feedback.

[@colum6]

I will wondered if temperature was a factor. I wondered if having too much flour insulated the starter in some way. Thank you.

[@Spinning4Lisa]

This video is a game changer!! Thank you for helping me understand how to ramp up my starter, so it will actually make the bread rise! I also appreciate the research and testing videos!! Finally understanding bulk fermentation and final proof has also helped tremendously! Working with a sourdough starter is much different than using store bought yeast!! Thank you sooo much!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Good luck.

[@garypostell5268]

Wow very interesting and learned a lot just trying to get started in sourdough so this is helpful, thank you 🙏

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@Carissa72]

I’ve heard the exact opposite information from experienced bakers. They keep a tiny amount of starter, then do a large feed. 1:10:10 or so. The starter ALWAYS eats everything, it just takes time. So what do you mean by “The starter doesn’t eat everything?” How do you know it hasn’t eaten everything? It will eventually?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

This was a different technique where I arbitrarily constrained myself to 24 hour feedings to show how to “read the starter” and adapt the feeding ratio based on observations. Large feeding ratios have there place as a technique but I wouldn’t say that is universally the best way to strengthen a starter. Short interval feedings at peak are shown to reduce acidity levels more effectively than one time larger feedings. But it is a generally sound technique, just not universally “the best.” There are different tools for different jobs.

[@barbarabeck1174]

Tom you are the best and I share your content with SO many people. I put my starter in the fridge for the first time for only 3 days and took it out to feed so I could bake. But my starter only rose about 50%. Maybe a video on how to wake up your starter...I watched the video about going on vacation - I see you spent a few days of feeding to wake it up. I have heard of people only keeping 25g of starter in the fridge, and take it out to feed/bake. Did my starter just need to be older? It was 3 weeks old and at about day 10 it started doubling or more consistently. Thank you for selecting my comment!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

3 weeks is a little early for the fridge. Be patient and give it time to become fylly active after a feeding, before discarding and refeeding. It will gradually speed up again, but you can’t force it by feeding it more food or more frequently. It needs time.

[@dorondaus2808]

Love your videos. Got into sourdough recently and choosed you among all others. Efficient, dedicated. On point ! Thank you and your brother. You made my journey starting on the right foot. I baked a few very delicious loafs thank to this recipe. I saw many other ones and you are the KING ! I just wanted you to know that ;) Also any ideas for baking to with olives ? Maybe adding in the shaping time ?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you so much. Yes, I love to make a loaf with olives and herbs de Provence. I add them in at the least stretch and fold, or in preshaping. Here is the method. thesourdoughjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/How-to-Evenly-Laminate-Add-ins-in-Sourdough.pdf

[@Marlenibeni5000]

Your explanation is so good! A lot of the recipes did not work at all and I felt like an idiot because they all said „easy sourdough starter“ 😢 But now I’m on a better way and I know what to look for. I hope I can create a good starter and bake nice pizza or bread 😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! 🙏

[@ericawillige1384]

I know I’m about to say something you probably here quite often, but I WISH I had found you first!!! I’m currently working on strengthening my starter. On day 14 and it’s still taking 8+ hours to double at 75°. I want to attempt this strengthening program but I’m on a 1:1:1 and feeding every 24 hours. I’m afraid of “force feeding” (as you mentioned in a previous video) and weakening it further. Should I increase to a 1:2:2?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

This method is more appropriate for a mature starter. New starters benefit from longer times between feeding and discard. I’d do 1:2:2 feedings and slow down your feeding interval. Really give it a long time before discarding and feeding.

[@ericawillige1384]

Ok I will give that a try! So is the 24hr max rule mainly for mature starters too? Would you suggest waiting until the starter has consumed all of the food before discarding and feeding regardless of time? So possibly not feeding for 36+ hours? I will also do a 1:2:2 next time

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It usually helps to stretch out the feeding times. Stir at least once per day. And usually I don’t exceed 48 hours without feeding.

[@jimfromri]

Wow, I learned a TON from this video. Before I thought “no big deal with weak starter” it will just proof slower. I did have a couple of questions. First, do you have links for the “beaker “ you used to measure starter growth? I looked on your new website-which is world class-and didn’t see it there. Second, what do you do with all the bread you bake? It’s obvious that you’ve learned so much in a relatively short period of time because you’ve baked a lot of bread. (And taken a scientific approach to learning.). It’s just my wife and me. I’d love to bake more but there’s only so much we can eat. Any advice? Give to neighbors? Food bank? (Both those are tricky in the pandemic.). Bin it?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. Those beakers are called “graduated cylinders”. You can find them on chemistry supply sites. Let me see if I can find the exact model I used. Thanks for checking out the website. I’ll be adding more content every week now. Regarding the bread, I give away about 75% of it to family, friends and neighbors. I have 5 or 6 “regulars” who I rotate the giveaways to.

[@M1903-s6k]

They are also on Amazon.

[@sincerelyykathleen]

My starter doubles in 12hrs after a 1:2:2 feeding. When I reduce feedings to 1:1:1 so I can bake with it, it still takes around 12 hours. Wouldn’t it double within 4-6 hours since I’m cutting down the feeding?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It should be somewhat faster but no that much. If 1;2;2 takes 12 hours, 1:1:1 may still take 9 or so.

[@areligonzalez2556]

Very good video! But I have a question, what should I do after day 6 to maintain the strength of the starter? or even gain more strength. Should I continue feeding 1:3:3 every 12 hours, or increase to 1:4:4 every 24 hours and keep it there as daily feeding.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

If you’re keeping your starter at room temp, you want to use a high enough feeding ratio so it doesn’t fall flat between feedings. If you keep it in the fridge, the effects of the strengthening will last for a month or two, then do a few peak to peak feeds to get it back in shape from time to time.

[@natashahanssen147]

Very easy to follow video, thank you. You said you wanted to keep your starter at 150g, is there a specific reason for that? My starter is weak. I got it from a local sourdough bakery (so I don't know how old it actually is) and was very active when I first got it. Now it takes many hours to double and when it does, there are hardly any bubbles.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

150g is arbitrary. You can keep less. I keep about 75g now. Here’s a newer video. The end of this demonstrates how to strengthen a weak starter. Same concept as what you saw here but a better method without the arbitrary feeding time. NEW!: How to Strengthen a Weak, ACIDIC Starter (A Barnyard Tragedy) kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnPLdIuiiNZpfZo

[@natashahanssen147]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you, I will watch the newer video later today. I'm a busy mum so I tend to bake every other week or so. Once I've gone through this process and strengthened my starter, can I continue to keep it in the fridge, feed the night before or the morning I plan to bake, instead of feeding it everyday? Feels so wasteful to feed every day when I'm not able to use it that often.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes. If baking once a week, I keep a small amount of starter, in the fridge, and I take it out one or two days before i plan to bake. I discard and feed it 2 or 3 times to get it in top shape with the third feeding being what I need for baking plus some extra. I use the amount I need and put the “extra” back in the fridge as my ongoing starter. So I’m constantly turning it over and keeping it fresh.

[@natashahanssen147]

@@thesourdoughjourney That makes sense, thanks!

[@natashahanssen147]

I'm on day 4 of doing this and it honestly seems like my starter is getting weaker :/ I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Last night I fed it after 12 hours and this morning (now 12.5 hours later) it has risen only slightly, not even doubles. What should I do?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

If it’s not doubling, don’t discard and feed. The second half of this video is a better method. NEW!: How to Strengthen a Weak, ACIDIC Starter (A Barnyard Tragedy) kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnPLdIuiiNZpfZo

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

I left a jar of starter scrapings in my in-laws' fridge in July, maybe two tablespoons, and it took two 50 g 1:1 feedings over Xmas to get it back to being breadworthy, its first feeding gave a passable pizza dough so I brought it home and fed it again, and am calling it Sudbury Sour. It's still a bit more sour than Thing 2 which I've been using once or twice a week all year and I've pretty much got a system... I pull Thing 2 out of the fridge and feed it the morning I want to use it, by afternoon it's nice and fluffy, most of it goes into the bread, then whatever's left in the jar goes back in the fridge till next time. If it's a bit sluggish, I just give the dough longer in the fridge once I'm done with the stretch-folds. Right now I've got one 500g loaf of each going, I fed Thing 2 and Sudbury Sour at the same time and Sudbury Sour wasn't far behind Thing 2, and they're behaving approximately the same, they just smell a bit different. Time will tell how they do when I bake them!!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I’ve also had good luck pulling starter from the fridge. I’ve had more trouble with my countertop starters going weak, especially in the summer.

[@bunhelsingslegacy3549]

@@thesourdoughjourney I find the refrigerator is the great equalizer. If I were making bread every other day I could leave the starter on the counter but I have great results with no feedings and discards just by refrigerating it if I'm not feeding it again within 24h. I did find unfed countertop starter went weak if I forgot to feed it but mine seems to be great even after 2 weeks in the fridge., perks right up, especially if I use warm water when I feed it. And when I had a laggy starter that didn't get going until just before bedtime, shoving it in the fridge and using it in the morning has also been successful for me. As long as it started expanding before it went in the fridge, it keeps going without starving out and then just paises, and especially if I use warm water for the loaf, it gets going pretty quick.

[@gailgreenberg6953]

My starter is 7 days old. It has so many bubbles on the sides, but barely any on top. The top is flat, looks dry and smells of vinegar. And doubles in about 6 hours! I tried the floating test yesterday, it floated just before sinking. I wish I could send you a photo. by the way it is a rye starter. I love watching you. thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. You’re rye starter will behave differently than what you see in my videos. It will never be as bubbly or rise as much. But will still rise a loaf nicely. It also usually will not pass the float test but will rise a loaf perfectly well.

[@gailgreenberg6953]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you so much! I'll let you know in a few days how it works out.

[@Zumerjud]

Did you use bread flour or all-purpose flour? And does it make a difference?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I use a 50/50 mix of bread flour and whole wheat flour. You want to use whatever flour your starter is typically fed. Sometimes changing up the flour can make it worse. Sometimes adding a little whole wheat can help. I always have fed mine the blend. .

[@alexandacat6376]

Very, very helpful. Thank you once more! I begun my journey a few months ago and life got in the way, so my starter has been spending time alone in the fridge missing yer daily feedings. I notice you say this method is more appropriate for mature starters and I can't help but wonder if mine qualifies. If you could suggest a way forward, would you suggest I go for a 1:1:1 daily regime for a week (or more) and note her behavior before I attempt this or should I go for this directly?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’d try 1:2:2 daily feedings.

[@Isabel_fit]

I keep my starter in the fridge and feed once a week (per the instructions I was given from a restaurant where I took a sourdough class). Does keeping it in the fridge weaken the starter? I know it slows down the process due to the cold temperature. I’m just not at the level of baking to keep mine out on the counter for daily feedings

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Keeping it in the fridge works fine. I also do that. But when I’m getting ready to bake, I’ll take it out of the fridge a day or 2 before I plan to bake and discard/feed at least here times before using it in my recipe. Some people use their starter directly from the fridge, but I find the results to be less consistent when I do that. More info here under Starter Maintenance and Starter Preparation. thesourdoughjourney.com/encyclopedia/

[@macmylo]

So it doubles in 6 hours, and then you just leave it until another 18 hours until 8am the next morning? Rather than feeding it at peak... (or maybe when it doubles isn't peak, peak might be various amounts higher...?) It's important to feed it at peak right?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Once you get it strengthened, you want to keep,it at a lower temperature, or give it a higher feeding ratio to space out the feeding times, preferably to once a day or so.

[@theshoemanstream2347]

Great resource! I love these videos. I don’t think i fully agree with your feeding though. This makes sense for trying to strength your dough, but It seems to me that i should be doing like a 1:5:5 or even a 1:10:10 for daily feedings to keep it strong. What i think this should do is slow the life cycle so that it peaks closer to hour 24. Instead of hour 8. Does that make sense?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

This is a different methods where I chose a fixed feeding interval (an artificial constraint) and showed how to read the starter and adjust the feeding ratios. One time high feeding ratios don’t have the same effect as multiple, peak to peak feedings. Here’s my recommended method. thesourdoughjourney.com/how-to-strengthen-and-deacidify-a-weak-starter-the-peak-to-peak-method/

[@khabbaz-99nnn]

Hi good videos🏅l saw some one making what he caĺl a bath to the satarter puting it in hot water with some sugar to decrease the number of lactic acid in starter is it true ?? And excuse my english talk am not good in English language😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Yes, a “starter bath” is another way to reduce the acidity of your starter. Here is a good video demonstrating that method. kzbin.info/www/bejne/foHdZGl-bK-jj9U

[@caasr57]

Good afternoon, Tom. Congratulations on your perfect teaching👨‍🏫👏Clear, precise and concise‼. Looking at your experiment's schedule and results, wouldn't it be logical - and faster to strengthen the starter - if we fed it back whenever it reached peak growth over the course of a week or less?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, I propose that in my other video “How to Strengthen a Weak Starter.” That is the Peak-to-Peak method. However, many people struggle with that if the starter peaks while they are at work or sleeping. This is a similar, but alternate method with a fixed feeding time to make it more predictable. But yes, I could have cut down the time by doing peak to peak, schedule permitting.

[@caasr57]

@@thesourdoughjourney Anyway, the other approach also means that you will have to monitor (record a video) the growth of the starter to know what the maximum volume was reached and how long it took to double its volume, to be sure that the starter is really strengthening.

[@8360365]

Thank you for all you have done for the Sourdough community and even more than that... FOR ME... I have learned more in the past few days and am SURE that my pathway is straight and true... but I do have a couple of questions if you don't mind... 1) I noticed that the lid on you starter jar does not have ventilation... when refreshing he starter do you put the lid on?? 2) Most recipes call for 20% starter... the most I have ever put in my starter is 11%... have your labs done any testing on the percentage on the flavor and texture of the bread with varying amounts of sourdough in the recipe??

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! Your starter should have a loose fitting lid. It does not need oxygen but it does need to allow gasses to escape. I use a screw on lid, but I don't screw it down tightly. The amount of starter used in a recipe does not make much of a difference. More starter takes less time to bulk ferment and less starter takes longer. That is the main difference. Longer fermentation times (less starter or lower temperature) can give the bread a more sour flavor. But it comes from the fermentation time, not directly from the amount of starter. If you use more than 20% starter, the texture can become more gummy. I really like the texture with 10% starter and a long cool bulk fermentation (12 hours at 70F). It makes a more tender, delicate crumb.

[@nadinethomson1691]

Tom, thank you so much for this. I am new at sourdough baking - started early March from a dry starter from a friend who said it came from a very old starter. I was surprised that I was actually able to bake some satisfactory loaves but I didn't understand what a starter actually does. Last week I thought my starter was weak all of a sudden because it wasn't producing any bubbles, even though I kept feeding it (without discarding). But this really clarifies things. I am on day 2 of trying your experiment - yesterday with 1-2-2 ratios, my starter took a long time to double - maybe 10 hours, but today at 1-2-2 again, it doubled in 4 ½ hrs, and got to 2 1/4 rise after 8 hrs - which seems a lot faster than day 1, but I think that might be as far as it will rise today. My question is, what does it mean when a starter rises faster - it's able to digest more vigorously? or produces more gas? Since it rose this fast on day 2, does it sound like it's strong enough to use for baking, or should I continue until I see a full tall rise? Also your comment about an amount of starter being able to "lift" the flour and water makes sense, but I wonder - in the Tartine method which says to use a tablespoon of starter for 200 g flour and 200 gr water to make a leaven, that seems like it would be a huge job for this small amount of starter. And another question, if I put the starter in my oven with just the light on, the oven temp can reach up to 31c. Is that too warm for a starter?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Of your starter is rising quickly it is generally strong, but it also can rise quickly when it’s warm. Making it rise faster by warming it up is a “false rise.” The exact same starter is just as “strong” if it rises more slowly at lower temps. “Fast” rising is only an indicator of strength when comparing the same starter at the same temp. 31C is a little too warm. Never let it get above about 29C. It becomes very acidic when warmer. Ideally, keep it around 25-26C if you’re trying to keep it “warm”. But you can also keep a perfectly strong starter at cooler temps.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

The high feeding ratio in Tartine is a method of stretching out the rise time to get it to slowly rise overnight.

[@KelliRivers]

Great video!!! What is the importance of keeping the starter 150 grams? Couldn't you get away with less? My starter is 2 years old and needs strengthening. I started yesterday with your protocol. It doubled in about 7-8 hours and this morning (day 2) there was plenty of starter above the line so I will not increase the food. I'll again feed it 1-2-2 totaling 150 g.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

You can keep much less. I keep about 70g. I used. A larger amount here to make it more visible in the video.

[@tothpianopeter]

Wonderful video. You prove that one really has to learn to read his or her starter and feed it accordingly. I have two questions. 1.Do you think this method would also work with a stiff starter? I have a 50%-hydration starter. 2. Where can one purchase the tall and slim vessel you are using in the video?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I have never made a stiff starter so I can’t say for certain how that would work; but the idea of “peak to peak” feeding is generally a good method. Watch for your starter to peak, then discard and feed. The tall vessel is called a “graduated cylinder.” You can find these on chemistry supply websites.

[@tothpianopeter]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you! I will look for graduated cylinders.

[@MaryHoltz-rt3sl]

My starter is doubling in about 12 hours. Feeding 1-3-3. When I stir it, it is honeycomb-ish, which I think is good, but it is thick and stretchy (maybe almost like a super sticky dough.) Clarification: definitely less than an actual dough, but just trying to explain it's consistency. Is this a problem and if so, how to fix it? Should I stop feeding at intervals and just wait for the full rise and slight fall? Thank you for your help.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, this video was more of a “time bound” illustration. In general, I’d just watch the starter and feed it after it has clearly peaked, but not fallen.

[@desiraeharrison5139]

What do I do if I’m following this and after 24 hours there are a lot of bubbles and thin, but doesn’t appear to have rose?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Use less water or more flour on the next feeding.

[@desiraeharrison5139]

@@thesourdoughjourney thank you Tom! This video has helped me with my sourdough starter that I started over a month ago. It had little to no activity before I followed this video!

[@lotta_violetti]

Hi Tom! It's day 13 of my starter. Everything is fine. I use organic whole wheat flour and bread flour and feed once a day in a 1:2:2 ratio. My room temperature is on average 25 degrees. But I have a problem, my starter doubles in 12 hours, not 4-7 hours. Do you think this is a good time to implement what you explained in this video?

[@lotta_violetti]

or what should I do? And one more thing I'm curious about is, is the yeast you strengthened in this video the same or stronger than before?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’d stick with the normal schedule for another 5 days or so. It’s still naturally strengthening with time. This method is more for mature starters.

[@vixyswillie]

Such a great video, Tom - thanks for sharing this. What's your routine starter feeding regimen like these days? Do you keep it on the counter or in the fridge between bakes? If on the counter, what is the ambient temperature? Thanks in advance!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’m traveling a lot this time of year, so keeping it in the fridge mostly. Then I take it out and do three peak to peak feeds before baking. The third one is the leaven build.

[@vixyswillie]

@@thesourdoughjourney Many thanks!

[@aaronjansky695]

I’m so confused if I should use this method or if I need to do peak to peak from your other video

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Use peak to peak from the other video.

[@MichaelBecker-m8k]

how many black long sleeve t-shirts do you have?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

A few. This is the same one I’ve worn in all videos up to 2023.

[@KogakuKing]

Great information. So, moving forward, when do we bake? Do we keep feeding 1:3:3 until starter doubles in 4 hours? Does our “frequency” remain at 8 hr intervals? Do we wait 5+ hours on bake day? And, do we drop back to 1:2:2 (preferred) for daily maintenance? Thanks for all the incredible information you deliver in your videos! Bake Well!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Think of this as a “periodic strengthening regimen.” After this process you want to do daily feedings at whatever feeding ratio is required to keep it from starving in a 24 hour period. Also, you can refrigerate it at that point. Or keep it cooler at room temp to slow it down if feeding it daily.

[@KogakuKing]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for the clarification. That helps a lot. Yes, I would like to know about how to keep starters in the fridge. Especially about how that would affect feeding schedules and what to do on bake day. Do you have a video covering this?

[@nitsuga1111]

Why does it matter that the starter didn't consume all the food on day 2? I thought you're supposed to feed it/use it when it's at it's peak, not when it's back down the curve. Please correct me master.😔 I feed my starter 1:5:5 every 12 hours and it's always at it's peak but it is also very weak 😭

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Great question. This was a special experimental control case where I was feeding the starter on a fixed time interval to show how it progresses in the experiment from one day to the next. I’m trying to show an objective, measurable way of how you can see the starter is “strengthening” each day as a teaching mechanism. I would not recommend this approach for normal maintenance.

[@kvareberg6929]

What do you do after day six?! Continue feeds as shown?!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

After day 6 I go back to daily maintenance of 1:1:1 or 1:2:2. Then do the strengthening regimen every month or two as needed.

[@zainabkh363]

Thank you for sharing this interesting experiments! I am interested to know if i am correct, if we rise our starter in 5 hours, does this equal to the time of fermentation ( when we make the bread, which only contains flour and water) give or take some minor factors .

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It is not exactly the same. Your bread will take longer to rise than your starter because it is essentially a higher feeding ratio, and it includes salt which slows down the rise also.

[@alwynn2233]

I’m not quite clear how to tell that it didn’t consume all of it’s food. Is it if the starter hasn’t completely fallen back to it’s original level with no rise?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

If has risen, peaked and fallen all the way back to the original level, that is what I am describing as “consumed all its food.”

[@TiggerBak]

What if after you strengthened up the starter at room temp, how would the mother be impacted if you then stored in the fridge?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It’s tricky. Some people say the refrigerator changes the microbial makeup of the starter. I’ve had good luck using the fridge and sometimes mine come out of the fridge stronger. It is a very individual thing. I believe you just need to try it and see. Maybe split your starter in two and keep a countertop version and a fridge version for a few weeks. I’d say in 2-4 weeks you’d see a difference if there is one.

[@jessicacruz2974]

What if you have a 4 day old starer and it never rises and peaks or goes down. All it does is look like what you say in the video as “starving” it looks flat, with the layer of gray water on top. But it never rose, peaked, and came back down? Currently feeding every 24 hours with whole wheat flour, it has never increased even an inch. Is it starving or not? If it hasn’t risen, I’m assuming it didn’t eat any of the food. Is there just no yeast in there at all? What should I do?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It’s not starving. Stir it up. Water separation is common. If you don’t see activity, stir it up and wait. Don’t overfeed an inactive starter.

[@jessicacruz2974]

@@thesourdoughjourney ok thank you!

[@shirleywodzenski4791]

Need some expert advice from you Tom. I’ve done the six day challenge to a stronger starter. Yesterday was the last day. I did see some improvement. Last night I prepared to feed the starter for the quantity I needed. I discarded 3/4 of the starter, added 100g of 50/50 mix of whole wheat and Ap flour, and 100gm of water. Same procedure as always. But it just doubled barely and then started to collapse so I’m not using it to bake with today. I guess I’ll add some rye flour. What could be going wrong?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Hello Shirley. I can’t say for certain. Was the temperature warmer than usual? The stronger starter will peak more quickly. The time to peak is a better indicator of strength than the height of the rise. Sounds like it’s just moving faster than before, but that what you want. If it peaked too quickly for your schedule, try keeping it slightly cooler by mixing with cold water, or even putting the jar in a bowl with an ice cube or 2 (outside the starter jar, in the bowl) to keep the temp a little lower.

[@shirleywodzenski4791]

@@thesourdoughjourney that is exactly what I did. It’s got me puzzled. I’ll feed it again and hope to bake tomorrow.

[@irmetov]

I've been feeding my starter every 12 hours soon after it peaks for 4-5 days now hoping to strengthen it, but it doesn't seem to help much. My starter's volume increases by 100% or a little more and that's it. I'm going to increase feeding intervals to 24 hours and see what changes.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good luck. The speed of the rise is more important than the height.

[@AgileCait]

Very interesting experiment, Tom. I really like the calculations that you did to demonstrate starter strength. I bake bread only about once every 10 days, so now I am wondering if there is a way to adapt this experiment to my baking schedule without having to produce a huge amount of discard due to feeding once or twice daily. I do make very tasty crackers from my discard, but a person can consume only so many crackers! When you are baking just for yourself and your wife, do you feed the starter every day? And do you a) throw out a huge amount of discard, per week or b) do you decrease the amount of starter that you produce each day, such as using only 5 g of starter in your 1 to 3 ratio?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Good questions. I believe this type of regimen is required infrequently and only if the starter gets sluggish (every 2 months, for example, or more?). I keep my starter on the countertop if I’m baking within the week, and in the fridge if less frequently. I keep about 100g of starter, so with daily feedings, I’m only discarding 40g of flour per day. For either countertop or fridge kept starter I usually start prepping it about a day or 2 before baking. I’ll usually do a 1:1:1 feeding and shortly after it peaks, I discard 80% and feed 1:2:2. I do this at least 3 times in the day or so prior to baking and it strengthens the starter. Before I bake, sometimes I make a 1:10:10 leaven (overnight at cool temps), or 1:5:5 same day, or 1:1:1 for a quick prep (4 hours before baking). I’m going to make a video on this topic in the next month or so. Thanks for the feedback.

[@elizabethheyenga9277]

@@thesourdoughjourney please do make a video. And maybe play with stiff starters and let us know what you think.

[@dreyno64]

Can you share your cracker recipe? I’m collecting ideas for the discard.

[@dahliaroches3942]

​@@thesourdoughjourney i can't do all that isn't there an easy method omg

[@raquelfdez13]

How old should my starter be before I consider doing peak-to-peak feedings? I worry that if it's too young it will affect it's pH and allow other microorganisms to grow😅

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Peak to peak is a technique for mature. Immature starters can often benefit from longer feeding intervals.

[@stephaniecasper3180]

Tom when you use rye flour to feed it seems to be a really thirsty flour! The water I add just doesn't do a good job at moistening all the flour. What to do? Do the whole grain starts need a bit more water? Thanks.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Absolutely. Always add more water with whole grains and rye.

[@carminecasarella98]

Great video do you believe that liquid starters have higher ph then stiff starter ?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I believe liquid starters are more acidic (lower pH) than stiff starters. That is the theory, but I’ve not tested or proven it.

[@kimberlyworthingtoncreates]

Hi Tom, thank you for this video! I have a few questions, details first... I have a struggling new starter that's 18 days old. I've been doing the peak-to-peak feeding method for 4 days now with a 1:2:2 ratio (150g total), and the peak time for doubling of 15 hours hasn't improved. I'm keeping my starter in my extra oven with the light on and the temp. typically is around 77 to 78 degrees during the day but can dip down to 70 degrees during the night. My first question is should I continue with everything the same or make some changes? Like invest in a sourdough home and return to a 1:1:1 feeding ratio, or let the 24-hour feeding cycle resume? Second question, after you strengthen your starter, do you re-zoom the 24-hour feeding schedule or keep the 12-hour/peak-to-peak feeding schedule? Thank you again for sharing your sourdough journey!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. With a new starter, sometimes it is better to have more time between feedings, versus less time. Try a few days of letting the starter rise and fall before discarding and feeding. I know this may sound counter-intuitive, but the peak-to-peak and other similar methods are for mature starters with very robust microbial populations. In a new starter, you're still building the yeast population and it needs a longer runway between feedings. Push it a few times until it almost looks like it's starving, then discard and refeed. Good luck.

[@kimberlyworthingtoncreates]

Thank you so much for the info, I will do that and let you know the outcome!@@thesourdoughjourney

[@andrestorres1677]

@@kimberlyworthingtoncreates did his tip help?

[@AriannaButcher-kt8mf]

My starter was rising in 5 hrs but didn’t pass the “float test” so I went to the 1:3:3 the 22 64 64 and it’s not rising as fast. Should I go back to 1:2:2? Or wait the 6 days and go back to 1:2:2?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I’d stick with 1:2:2 unless it rises and falls very quickly.

[@AriannaButcher-kt8mf]

So my starter is over a month old now. It was rising in 5 hrs, Then I switched to 1:3:3 and it stopped rising that fast. I’m back on the 1:2:2 feeding ratio but it still hasn’t gotten back to rising as fast. I’m using your recommended 50/50 mix as well. What should I be doing different to make my starter rise in 4 hrs? And my other question is, it’s been over a month.. is it ready to use? Or do I have to wait for it to rise within 4 hrs? Your videos have been so helpful but I feel a little stuck at the moment! Any advice would be greatly appreciated 🙏

[@donnalubbq9561]

Tom I have. Question. After the 6 days and my starter is now a super starter, do I need to continue to feed it every 12 hours? What’s is the next step or did I miss a video. Wouldn’t it starve if I went back to every 24 hours?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

You need to use your judgement how to feed it going forward. You can slow it down by reducing the temperature (keep it in a cooler place), use a high feeding ratio, or feed twice a day. The process changes the microbial population, so even if it rises and falls, you still have a massively larger yeast population than before. While the overall culture may be “starving” the yeast don’t “starve to death” they just go dormant until fed again.

[@NicoleAlmburg]

Hi Tom! I’m a newbie to sourdough. Love your videos. My house temp is roughly 69. New starter is rising and doubling in size after 24hrs but not falling and I’m on roughly day 10ish. Do I keep waiting to discard?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Rising is more important than falling. Sounds like it needs a little more time to strengthen. If it’s 10 days old and smells yeasty, you could probably use the discard.

[@NicoleAlmburg]

@@thesourdoughjourneywould you increase the feed ratio to 1:3:3 or increase feeding increment to twice per day? It seems to be peaking after 10 hrs now.

[@troy5659]

Hello, What kind of flour are you using in this video and what was the protein content? Thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

A 50/50 mix of Central Milling Artisan Bakers Craft Plus and Central Milling Whole Wheat flour.

[@troy5659]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks,

[@melissahuntsman4955]

Do you always start from your original starter? What do you do with all that fed starter? Throw away?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I start with the original starter on day one, then you keep a portion of that starter each day to seed the starter the next day, I discard the remaining portion (compost) but you can keep it and use it in various “discard” recipes.

[@RivkiLocker]

Hi, can you tell me what beaker you used? Thanks!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It is a plastic, 100ml “graduated cylinder.” You can find them at chemistry supply stores.

[@barbaraspanos4291]

So I've been feeding my starter daily on a 12 hour schedule 1:5:5 for a year now. My starter doubles in a matter of 4-5 hours and by the 12 hour mark the top is flat at its peak rise, and it JUST barely (sometimes doesn't even) starts to drop from peak. Is this bad? I notice you say your starter still has food but has clearly fallen considerably below the peak line. I always thought it was best to feed your starter right at peak to maintain a strong starter with the highest population. Honestly, if I were to feed my starter at 1:3:3 it would double in 3 hours. Would love your advice!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Based on what you’re describing, I shouldn’t change anything with what you are doing. The starter best to use in your dough when it peaks, because the acidity is low. But there can be some benefit to feeding a starter past peak because the yeast population keeps growing even after peak. It is an inexact science because the tradeoff between yeast population and acidity is unique to each starter.

[@donnarichey144]

Wow mine is really weak. I never see it raise. It just wee little bubbles and never raises. I have been doing this for a couple of weeks or more. I am ready to give up. I am 79 and this is crazy. Thanks for sharing.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

What kind of flour are you using?

[@donnarichey144]

@@thesourdoughjourney I am using king arthur whole wheat and then now bread flour. I did some rye. Nothing really makes it raise, I get little bubbles that is it. I live high altitude like for canning I have to go to over 1100 ft.

[@BBoy_PB]

Excellent video, watched it 4 times lol. Trying this out right now for my starter! Quick question: what would be a good way to maintain a super active starter? Once I get it going I would prefer not to waste a ton of flour as I only make a loaf on the weekend?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Keep you starter in the fridge. A day or 2 before baking, take it out and do a couple refreshes. I keep a small amount in the fridge so I don’t waste much. 20-30g flour in each feeding.

[@nitsuga1111]

If I got this right, by the end of the program you basically conditioned your starter to peak in 5.5 hours, does that mean that if you don't want to keep it in the fridge, you have to feed it every 5.5 hours? Or if you keep it in the fridge, you have to take it out and feed it at 2:30am so it is ripe to bake at 8am? I would like to know if there is a way to train the starter to have the same strength factor of day 6, but train it to peak in 12 hours with that factor. I'm a beginner, and mostly like to keep my learning from one place to not get overwhelmed. I started learning from Maurizio Leo and got his book but I've not had good results with his methods. I feed my starter in 12 hour interval like he says but it's very weak. Thankfully I found your channel and I will replicate this program but I still want to feed it every 12 hours to match Maurizio's recipes and schedules. Thank you!

[@nitsuga1111]

I've been thinking and I think I can replicate your program and after that slowly increase the the feeding ratios by decimal points until it's enough to peak at 12 hour intervals, would this decrease the strength factor? Also, can this program be replicated at lower temperature? What type of camera did you use to record the rise?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

The best way to slow it down is to reduce the temperature.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I use my iPhone on Timelapse. Yes, you can increase the feeding ratio to try to get your starter to peak at 12 hours. Reducing the temperature is usually an easier way to slow it down.

[@nitsuga1111]

@@thesourdoughjourney slowing it down would reduce the strength factor or not necessarily?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Slowing it down has no impact on strength.

[@mariel.8049]

So in my understanding after those six days you would keep at feeding it 1:3:3 or higher right ? Or do you go back to 1:1:1 after ?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

After day 6, I went back to 1:2:2. Sometimes back to 1:1:1 based on my kitchen temperature. You just need to assess how fast the starter is rising and adjust the feeding ratio to make sure it has enough food to make it to the next feeding time.

[@chiangsim]

Thank you. Great info.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks.

[@heidimay9288]

So we are supposed to let our starter double and then go back down to where it started before we feed it is that correct? and if making bread use it when its at its peak but if just maintaining it can drop back to its starter mark?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Always use it at peak in dough. I often let mine rise and fall for daily maintenance, then before I use it in a recipe, I’ll give i a few peak to peak feedings to get it in top shape.

[@heidimay9288]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks Tom

[@Levrifon]

Hello back Tom, I'm watching your two recents videos which are very interesting for the strength of the dough, previously I always made the mistake to wakeup my levain from fridge and not feeding it correctly.. But now I think that, If I do a sourdough bread with a very small quantity of levain (like 2% so 10g for 500g of Flour) do you think the acidity/strength still have an importance here ? Thanks !

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good question. A smaller amount of starter (10g) does not have as much impact in the acidity of the loaf, especially if you keep the temperature of the dough cooler.

[@休士]

I strengthened my starter in 6 days by following your protocol. Thank you very much. Since the feeding time is around the yeast digested all their available food, the volume falls back to the original height. So does it also work for the making of bread? Is it necessary to make bread at the peak of starter growing curve? Besides, I make bread at the 7 to 10 days intervals, which way is better for the maintenance of the starter?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

If you bake every 7-10 days it is best to keep your starter in the refrigerator between bakes. One or two days before you plan to bake, take your starter out and feed it about 3 times before using it in your recipe. It is usually best to catch it at the peak for baking. It will work if you use it slightly pre or post peak. Some people use theirs straight from the refrigerator. But I find best results after a few feedings and close to peak. I have some helpful tips on my website. thesourdoughjourney.com/faq-starter-preparation/

[@休士]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for your suggestions. The cold starter recovered fast by only two feeds (1:2:2 once and 1:3:3 once). Recent breads made by strengthened starter have better texture and flavor, my families love them very much. Thank you so much. The bottom of bread is thick and chewy, how could I make it softer and thinner? Could you kindly give me some advice. Thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. If you are baking in a Dutch oven, try putting a baking sheet on a separate oven rack below,the rack you have the Dutch oven on. This will help keep the bottom from burning and keeps it softer. You can also try cooling the loaf directly on a cutting board (instead of using a cooling rack). This will bulk up some moisture on the bottom of the loaf as it is cooling and soften the bottom a little.

[@休士]

@@thesourdoughjourney It's amazing. The bottom softened a lot after adding the oven rack. The bottom is not flat, fallen down on both side. It might derived from that I use soft aluminum foil but not baking sheet. The bread is good at texture and flavor, so nice. Other question. Is that no-discard method that directly use starter from fridge without refresh is workable. Some youtubes said it is OK. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnvGqHyNndB5qs0 . Thank you very much.

[@xijoe5957]

Hello, Tom. What does a strong starter mean, it's a lot of strong individual east body or a big east population?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good question. It means a large yeast population.

[@rickardkarlsson4437]

Hi Tom! Thank you for all the excellent content! I was wondering if you have experienced great variance in starter performance only due to difference in quality of the flour - even if it's the exact same brand and type of flour? I had a starter and baked bread regularly about a year ago. I took a break and picked it up again a few months ago. I made a new starter from scratch. Followed my notes of how I did it the previous time, which gave excellent results. My old starter would grow to ~2.5 times it's initial level in 4,5 hours after a 1:1:1 feeding. But not this time. I control most other factors I can think of. Feeding ratios/times, temperature (proofing chamber), type of water, and type of flours, are all the same as the previous time. But my starter just refuses to grow strong. I've tried your tips from other videos, such as feeding at the peak for 3-4 days in a row, and I've tried to follow this guide as well and adjust the variables accordingly. I still can't get my starter to do better than barely doubling in size in 8-9 hours under ideal temperature. I've tried most things I can think of and I'm getting a little frustrated haha... I'm almost at the point where I want to say that nothing is different from the previous time I built a great starter other than the quality/performance of the flour. Have you had any similar experiences? Thank you for your input!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you. Good question. If you’re feeding it the same but the results are materially different, then it is likely the difference in the initial starter you created (not the feeding). Every new starter has its own unique blend of microbes and it is unlikely that you created an exact replica of your old starter, even using the same brand of flour. The actual flour could have come from vastly different places and the microbes on the wheat are what create the unique population of the starter. Even feeding it different flours, it is difficult to change the initial population once it is established. There is some randomness in the process every time you create a new starter. Perhaps try a different brand of flour and create another, new starter from scratch with a completely different brand (I prefer a 50/50 mix of bread flour and whole wheat flour). It is worth a try. Otherwise, try feeding your existing starter a completely different brand of flour (preferably 50% whole wheat) and it may change up your starter also. It seems like you’ve tried all the usual methods of strengthening, but you need to “repopulate” it with new microbes, in my opinion.

[@rickardkarlsson4437]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for the informative answer! Very interesting. Maybe this could be an interesting experiment for The Institute to conduct!? To see how much variance can be expected when creating new starters, even if the factors we can control are the same. And, to see if there is anything that can be done to deal with the randomness :) Thanks again!

[@kellypet3kids]

Once you’ve strengthened your starter, do you have to continue with that 1:3:3 ratio in order to maintain the strength?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

No. The key is to not let it routinely fall flat. I do this by keeping it cooler, so it slows down the time to peak, or I refrigerate it. If you are keeping your starter at room temp and it is warm and peaking quickly, the only way to slow it down is cooler temp, or higher feeding ratio. The temperature is a lot more effective than the feeding ratio.

[@muskepticsometimes9133]

I feed 1 per week and keep in fridge. Do you really have to feed 365 per year? Or is this just to get strength back

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Fridge maintenance also works fine. This method is only for periodic strengthening, if needed.

[@elizabethheyenga9277]

I make a stiff starter that lives in the fridge and I refresh when low. I started with Einkorn flour baking and this is standard from the "guru" and so easy, grateful that is my norm

[@Zumerjud]

This video was very interesting!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you.

[@lauracooper6549]

I’m on day one with this experiment. After listening to a few videos, I realize I’m making most of the mistakes related to starters, hence resulting in a weak starter. My one question is, after the 6 days, do I then go back to 1:1:1 daily feedings?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

The six day regimen is really just a periodic strengthening process that you may need to do a few times a year. After doing it, I return to a 1:1:1 or 1:2:2 feeding daily.

[@hippoboannie]

Hello! I am currently dealing with a slow rising starter. It does not double in 24 hours. Should I let it sit until it does double and then start this experiment?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes, always wait until it peaks, no matter how long it takes. Discarding and refeeding before it peaks makes it weaker.

[@hippoboannie]

@@thesourdoughjourney wish I found this video sooner! I’ve been doing that for a few days 🤦🏼‍♀️ thanks so much!!

[@margielaughlin6056]

Is this similar to a build leading to a bake? Have you tested the starter/levain builds in the new Chad R Bread Book? Quite different than previous, curious what you think. Generally disappointed in the book.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

This is more intensive than a leaven build for a bake. This would be used for periodic strengthening. When I do strengthening for a bake I usually do 2 or 1:2:2 feedings right after the starter peaks, in the day or 2 prior to baking. I do not have the new Robertson book yet.

[@margielaughlin6056]

@@thesourdoughjourney Got mine @ the library. I usually feed q 24hrs so I don't want my starter to peak too early, but if it hasn't gone down from double does that mean the seed isn't strong enough to eat the food, or that it is at peak?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I just ordered the book. The peak yeast population occurs slightly after the starter peaks in height. I try to catch mine close to peak, but there is a window of 1-2 hours past peak where it is still very strong.

[@mabelbowen25]

If I understand this correctly, You always discard at each feeding, right? Is there ever a time when one should not discard?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Discard at each feeding. You would only not discard if you bake every day. Or if you keep your starter in the refrigerator.

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

What a great site you have created. The Engineer in me loves your approach. I've had reasonable success using a rye starter for Chad's Tartine Country loaf recipe [about 20 loafs] however, my wife hates the sour note [actually very little IMO]. I've taken to use Wild Yeast Water [from various dried/fresh fruits] and seem to get equal results with no discernible sour notes. Have you experimented with Wild Yeast Water? Your feeding schedule would seem to reduce the lactic acid anyway so I'm going to give it a go. Thanks for your efforts.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you! I also do not like the taste of rye in my starter, but I haven’t tried wild yeast water. I’ve heard of others doing this but I have not tried it. Let me know how it works out. And thanks for checking out the website. I’ll be adding lots more in the coming months.

[@mikewurlitzer5217]

@@thesourdoughjourney I have used WYW in Chad's Tartine recipe and there is ZERO sour notes in the bread, which is our preference, but certainly not everyone's. I have not gone to the level of detail as you have, but you've given me some great goals to shoot for using a SD starter. Your bulk fermentation guide is STELLAR and should make hitting that sweet spot much easier. One thing I have noticed with WYW, the bulk fermentation is pathetic when it comes to increasing in volume but the massive oven spring more than makes up for it. By far some of the best rising I've seen for the final baked loaf has come from WYW.

[@dreyno64]

I was planning an entire day of bread making but got hijacked. My grands needed Neeny. Just as well bc I got to experience hungry starter. I should’ve anticipated bc it was triple in volume at 4 hrs. I left my flour/water at the 100 gm and decreased my starter to 30-35gm. I tripled in 5 hours. So I’m back on track. However, now I need to find a hotel room with kitchen access bc I may have to run away from home to be alone with my dough.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

😉

[@solarpony]

My kitchen is 78°, my starter triples consistently within 4 hours after feeding on a 1:1:1 ratio (whole wheat, or Rye, and AP). Yesterday, 100 g of a ready to rock starter spent 8 hours on the counter bulk fermenting 420 g of bread flour and 300 g of water.. while bubbles were present, this dough never rose even 50% during that time frame. Hence I am here! I realized that I have a weak starter, performance is poor. I'm going to try the schedule. Appreciate it.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

If your starter is tripling in 4 hours it doesn't sound like your starter is weak? Your dough will not rise as quickly as your starter because the flour mix is likely different. Your starter is using a "super charged" mix of flours (rye and whole wheat), but if your dough is primarily bread flour, it will rise more slowly than your starter does. Are you also testing your dough temperature? Your dough is a larger mass than your starter so it will acclimate to the room temperature much more slowly than your starter will.

[@solarpony]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you for your informative and thoughtful response! I revisited your video this evening just to make some more notations for myself, as I have begun your strengthening program! And that is how I saw this response. Did not get the alert through KZbin. I guess I left out some pertinent information as to how I came to suspect I have a weak starter. I do already understand the fundamentals of the flour differences at least, It was just between the tripling of the starter, and the lack of a significant rise that really confounded me. You see, the two recipes I had followed, one for ciabatta buns and one for a batard loaf, both stated that the dough would double in size anywhere from 5 to 8 hours. Both recipes called for KA bread flour. I followed everything to the T. And both times, (here is perhaps where I went wrong in my initial comment by leaving out this data), both times the outcome of the baked product was delightfully open crumb, BUT, dense, slightly sticky, and heavy. Both times excellent oven spring occurred, yet the loafs (especially the batard) appeared almost a miniature of what it should have been. I have uploaded a photo I took of it, you can view it here if you wish: ibb.co/B60VwGy So, due to the density of the crumb, and the size of the loaf, and the very slight gumminess, I suspected underproofing due to starter weakness. I'm not sure how many scores of hours I would have had to leave those doughs out to bulk ferment until the yeast had risen them accordingly but I threw in the towel at about 9 hours. Also of note: both times the starter came out of the refrigerator, was let to warm up for an hour or so, then fed once to sit overnight and once again the next day prior to baking. Only I did a 1:1:1 ratio out of ignorance and habit (I'm still green). Both times my starter never fell back to the start line. That is where I might have went wrong as well. I apologize for the length of this response. I will say that your video has given me great insight on tightening up my starter game. I never once waited until it fell back down, just fed it on schedule every time.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

@@solarpony That's a nice loaf. If you follow this method, it will get your starter in peak condition and then you can test it to see if the starter is the issue. The photo of your loaf looks good. Thanks for sharing.

[@solarpony]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thank you, sir! I am on day 2 of doing just that. It peaked just past double overnight and is falling nicely, right on track for the 24 hr feeding.

[@solarpony]

@@thesourdoughjourney I'd like to update my journey on day five of the strengthening program. Excellent results until I did a 1:3:3 ratio. My starter ground to a halt. It's sat there and stared at me on the counter for hours without budging even a hair above the start line. T'was then that I thought about your temperature suggestion for the dough and I thought lets apply that to the starter. Turns out my kitchen was not as warm as I thought, it was 71°. I immediately set up a makeshift shelf near my baseboard heating where it is a steady, cozy 83°. PLEASED to announce that we have extremely triumphant take off! Starter has doubled 4 hours later. Many thanks again for your help, friend! Cheers from Michigan 🥂

[@margielaughlin6056]

Are your charts available in a printable version?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Not at this time. You can pause the video and take a screen shot. I’m working on a new website and will be publishing all the charts there over the next 1-2 months.

[@judysstudios]

Tom, I had an interesting experiment. My starter is normally consistent of 100% whole wheat flour. Out of curiosity, right before I cleaned up the jar that contained all-purpose flour and bread flour starter two days ago (maybe 2 gram residue), I added filtered water to it. Instead of plain filtered water as I always feed my starter, I used the diluted all-prupose/bread flour water to feed. By logic, my starter would have gotten a little boost or none by fed with floury water. My starter takes 2 extra hours to peak now than just being fed with plain filtered water!!!!!! Would you shed some light with me WHY???? I just don't get it? Thanks

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Not sure why that would happen. I don’t think the diluted starter water would have a material impact on the rise time. Perhaps the temperature was different? That has the biggest impact on rise time.

[@BeegirlsHoneyHouse]

Bakers and brewers are incredibly fascinating scientists‼️ I miss the years of experimentation in my counter top bread machine… 🇺🇸💙

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you!

[@sprig.sprout]

I followed the instructions in the video about how to strengthen a weak, acidic starter on my 6 week old starter and totally diluted it. Hopefully the instructions in this video will help.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

The other video is better. It only dilutes it if you discard and feed before it peaks.

[@sprig.sprout]

@ I must have done that! I can’t remember now for sure but that makes the most sense 😂

[@feliciacarter1962]

Now, how often are you baking? Do you leave it out and feed it daily? Can you leave it in the frig and bake once a week and the starter stays strong?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Recently I’ve been baking once a week so keep it in my fridge. I take it out a day before I bake and give it 2 or 3 feedings.

[@ianbell2288]

Great work, thank you.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[@norberthuber1747]

Doesn't this contradict the other video, where it was said that just increasing the feeding ratio and/or the feeding frequency doesn't help strengthening the starter? But what is it then actually, what has strengthened the starter in this video? Especially what had been done to get the improvement between day one and day two?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Good question. I’m using a fixed time interval here to objectively measure the change in “strength.” And, I’m adjusting the feeding ratio to accommodate the arbitrary fixed time interval here. I don’t recommend a fixed time interval in general, but it is necessary with some people’s schedules. The “peak to peak” method is best. Feed it, wait for it to peak, discard and feed it again. I’m not following that strictly here because of the fixed time interval, but I always discarding and refeeding after it peaks. This is a modified method of peak to peak, where I’m always feeding after it peaks, but on a fixed interval, and adjusting the feeding ratio based on consumption rate. This method is essentially a slower version of “peak to peak” (because I’m not catching at the optimal time) for people who cannot attend their starter continuously. I also should have been more clear in the other video. The “mistake” related to the short, fixed feeding interval is discarding and feeding a weak starter before it peaks (not the short interval alone). In this example, the starter peaked in all cases. It would have strengthened faster if I discarded and fed right after it peaked. And changing the feeding ratio itself, does not strengthen a starter. What you're seeing here is the combination of feeding ratios and time intervals working together, and always post-peak. So the bottom line: 1) never discard and feed your starter before it peaks (this often happens with arbitrary, short interval feedings). 2) peak to peak method is best and fastest way to strengthen a starter 3) if your schedule does not permit strict peak-to-peak feeding, modify the feeding ratio to fit your timing based on the reading the consumption (which is what I’m doing here) I could have achieved the exact same results in 2-3 days with strict peak-to-peak feeding.

[@norberthuber1747]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks, clear now.

[@dessromero7533]

My starter isn't even doubling. She is 10 days old 😢

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Check out my video on how to create a new sourdough starter here kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGSqlmVpqcutqaMsi=lBOjdZFgR6oGkWxr You can probably troubleshoot what went wrong. The two most common problems are 1) not using whole wheat (or rye), and 2) discarding and refeeding a weak starter, which makes it weaker.

[@karebear848]

same

[@jas2994]

@@thesourdoughjourneyi made the mistake of discarding and feeding my 2 week old starter too early. it does not rise at all and very little bubbles, how do i strengthen it again?

[@myanicole5430]

@@jas2994just keep feeding every 24 hours. The only days you shouldn’t discard are days 1 and 2, after that you should discard or else you’ll end up with way too much starter to feed and you’ll waste four. All you need is about 50 grams of your original starter before feeding. Feed 1:1:1 until it starts rising. Mine took 14 days to rise and bubble. I’m on my 3rd week now just trying to learn how to strengthen it because it isn’t doing a very good job rising my bread. lol

[@sophiabultena6781]

Very comprehensive!

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks.

[@lauracooper6549]

I’m on day 5 of this experiment. My starter will double, but never drops back down to the starting point in that 24 hour period. I’ve followed the instructions to the tee.

[@lauracooper6549]

I suppose it’s possible it drops in the middle of the night, then rises back up.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

It doesn’t need to drip back down. Some flours will just stay close to peak. As long as it is rising faster, that is key. The falling is not really important. Does it look lighter; airier and frothier? If so, it is stronger.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

That would be unlikely.

[@lauracooper6549]

Thank you for your quick response! I guess the proof will be when I get the nerve up to try baking with it again ☺️.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Does it appear to be rising faster, and is it lighter/fluffier in texture? Has the smell changed?

[@vincentlabruzzo5368]

I thought the whole point of changing ratios was to increase the duration till peak?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Typically it is. But I’m using a fixed (arbitrary) feeding time here, so I’m adjusting the feeding ratio to roughly work within that time for purposes of this experiment. The ratio does not change the strength, just the time to peak.

[@vincentlabruzzo5368]

@@thesourdoughjourney ok cool. My starter is definitely on the weaker side. My house is cold and I cant feed it that often. Typically if its out I feed it once per day. I've never been able to monitor it and know exactly when it peaks etc.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

A cool starter doesn’t necessarily mean it is “weak”. Even a strong starter will look sluggish at low temps. Temperature is the single biggest indicator of rise time - not the “strength.”

[@lindad3856]

Wonderful as always, thanks. I am confused about the changes to feeding ratio and intervals vis a vis your comments in the earlier 'How to Strengthen a Weak Starter' video. Are you saying it's ok to adjust feeding ration gradually, just not all at once due to a weak starter? And the interval is increased only during the strengthening process? Also, do you revert to a 1:1:1 at some point or stay at 1:3:3? What happens if the starter weakens again?

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Great questions. I should have been more clear in the prior video. When people arbitrarily change the feeding ratio (e.g., "just feed it twice a day") this can actually weaken your starter if the starter is not peaking before you discard and re-feed. The feeding interval itself is not the issue, it is the interval, relative to the peak time. I tried to demonstrate that in this video by checking the status of the starter's remaining food every morning. Once it is clear that the starter is consuming all of its food before the next feeding, then you have the option to change the feeding interval (shorter time between feedings) or the feeding ratio (more food, same interval). It doesn't really matter which method you choose. You should pick the method that fits with your ability to feed the starter on that schedule.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

I always recommend gradual changes in the feeding ratios. Once my starter is strong, I like to get my starter back to 1:1:1 or 1:2:2 feeding ratio. The best way to do this (which was not covered in this video) is to control the temperature. Small changes in temperature can stretch out, or speed up the speed at which the starter is consuming the food, and it doesn't have any material impact on the "strength." A warm starter will rise faster than a cool starter, but that doesn't mean it is stronger. It is just warmer (so it eats faster), but the yeast population can be exactly the same in these two scenarios.

[@lindad3856]

@@thesourdoughjourney Thanks very much for these detailed replies, I will keep trying and re-reading. My starter has no problem doubling in 4 hours or less but I am not getting the oven spring I want so I am attempting to start at the bottom, so to speak. I was feeding peak-to-peak and I think it has improved. I will move back to once a day following these guidelines for evaluating and strengthening. I enjoy your videos so much -- learning and laughing -- thanks for all your efforts.

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. I always start with the starter when trying to fix problems. If yours is doubling in 4 hours, that's a pretty good indication that your starter is strong. Sometimes starters can become acidic. The best way to remedy that is to do a couple of peak-to-peak feedings right before you bake (I try to do 3). Ovenspring is tricky to diagnose. It is the accumulation of all of the steps in the process. In the first part of this video I cover all the things that impact ovenspring (I think I left out "strong starter?") kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4Wqg5Zumc11gZI

[@lindad3856]

@@thesourdoughjourney Yes, I had been keeping it in the fridge and only (maybe) feeding it just before baking, following a different method. Worked ok for a while but slowed down which is what got me to following with yours (both videos). It seems that I may have depleted yeast over lactic acid (which I would not have had even a clue about before watching 4 times in a row). I'm anxious to try after the peak to peak. And yes, I have watched pretty much every one of your videos at least once back for round 2.

[@dahliaroches3942]

Wow I'm getting confused.. it very difficult

[@thesourdoughjourney]

This is a more complex approach. All of the basics are here. thesourdoughjourney.com

[@Zumerjud]

Your sense of humor 😂😂😂

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks!

[@aliceyu7067]

Camper analogy is so morbid in a funny way 😂

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Nobody like a starving camper.

[@dopapier]

You actually are GOOD. This information is WORTHWHILE. Occasionally you are FUNNY. Yet you manage to make the whole thing sound MISERABLE. Lighten up and allow yourself the occasional SMILE. The whole process should be ENJOYABLE. 😊

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Thanks. Like this? kzbin.info/www/bejne/g2m2moSAr6ulqNksi=QXrly9Eh_-odhoW3

[@louettesommers8594]

My starter overflowed on day 2 with rye bread. It was my 3rd try. 😂🤣

[@thesourdoughjourney]

👍

[@louettesommers8594]

Sorry, I meant rye FLOUR. I couldn’t believe how much quicker it responded than my apf.

[@hopemiele1549]

Is he discarding??

[@thesourdoughjourney]

Yes.

[@heathergordon7964]

OMGthe flour really may not be from Cali😂😂😂

[@thesourdoughjourney]

😉

[@eneal2056]

You could have made this video five minutes long but there you go...

[@thesourdoughjourney]

My new website summarizes all the findings of the videos into very short FAQs. Here’s a sample. thesourdoughjourney.com/faq-starter-strengthening/

[@stephaniecasper3180]

Some of us need it this length & details .. charts, rationale etc. Cool you have something for folks that like short versions, too! Thanks so much for what you do. Plus you crack me up when I least expect it!❤️