Has Merseyrail Got Any Faster?

[@mattevans4377]

The speed is more noticeable when they are running late. The ability to get back on schedule is impressive. The old trains always used to struggle in comparison

[@Vanmanyo]

I kid you not I was watching your old Merseyrail video about shortest/longest journey times and I wondered "Maybe the new trains are faster"... here we are lol

[@ThatTransportGirl]

Maybe

[@izzieb]

As you said, the timetable is unlikely to have been changed to reflect the higher acceleration. Others have also mentioned defensive driving (more gentle acceleration and braking). I thought I would also add that the trains may be limited in how much current they can draw by the 750V DC system - though this would depend on the power infrastructure connected to the route.

[@gazwj]

I think your last point hits the nail on the head… trains might be faster but timetables haven’t changed so not going to be faster really

[@NickBadley]

I had a feeling this would be the case before filming, seems to be true!

[@Vanmanyo]

@@NickBadley I do wonder, now that the PEPs are gone, whether we may see a full timetable recast in May or December this year? Or perhaps Merseyrail may wait until 777 reliability increased - we'll have to wait and see!

[@-MapEnthusiastjj4eu]

8:40 R.I.P class 507 (1 November 1978 - 28 November 2024) ❤️🕊️ you will be missed

[@Andrewjg_89]

The Class 507 and Class 508 will always be remembered. And the Class 777 are very nice trains. Perhaps Merseyrail should order more Class 777s and to operate as 8-Car on the Northern City Line and Wirral Line. If Stadler was to manufacture more Class 777s for Merseyrail.

[@Tristan_303]

Especially after the football, rugby and cricket @Andrewjg_89

[@signalbelle]

From an old guy...I am sure that the Class 503s had much better acceleration than the Class 507s, very noticable when they were both in service.

[@Soj_89]

I suspect that even if the new trains are faster (Which they likely are by a small margin), the timetabling hasn't been changed to match the increase in speed, so it still takes the same amount of time. Also that slower driver was definitely just going slower to get back on schedule as they were running early.

[@jakewynn]

i disagree with the timetabling argument. The time is made up depending on how long to hold the train at the platform. It departs on the scheduled time. This is how the timetabling works. The driver just needs to get from station A to station B in ideally as little time as possible. This also doesn't really mean much when its just a single stop journey. If the timetabled time is 1 minute or 1 hour, still going to take roughly the same amount of time. The test would eliminate these factors too as it was just moving time, not doors close to doors close which is how efficiency is measured. If they are running late, they know this by the fact that they haven't yet departed at the scheduling time. If the scheduled time is 13:30, and they depart 13:31 this is a late service. That being said, there is such a huge overhead now because the drivers cant run services to an efficient schedule so they may be inconsistent to how

[@Soj_89]

@@jakewynn Yes however, if the timetable is more relaxed, the drivers will take it a slower pace because they have no reason to go quicker. A driver wouldn't go full force for no reason, seeing as its less comfortable for everyone involved. That's my thoughts at least.

[@jakewynn]

@Soj_89 Tbh, I genuinely think the one driver departed early (which they shouldn't do because it's incredibly unfair on passengers) so that they could drive slower. It will most likely mean a slower approach to the station to make it easier as opposed to slower acceleration or top speed. Still doesn't justify new trains in my opinion. I hate it when money is wasted and dare I say it boring replacements come in.

[@Soj_89]

@@jakewynn Woah woah woah, the old class 507s were 37 years old, they were due for an upgrade. And the 777s have been a very successful and good upgrade to them. They're not boring, they're just more modern and accessible. Its not money wasted, maybe the 507s could've survived 5 more years, but still, they were overdue an upgrade, and that's what they've got.

[@jakewynn]

@Soj_89 37 years old is nothing. The 1972 stock on the underground doesn't even have replacements lined up and they are absolutely thrashed.

[@michaeljohndennis2231]

Hi Nick - living in Manchester 24 years myself and with Holyhead Port closed at the moment, I’d consider using Liverpool if their ferries (from Birkenhead?) accepted foot passengers on their services to Dublin, as I have extended family in Ireland and my nearest mainline station is Manchester Victoria - one thing that I do find totally bizarre, is that on trains between Manchester Victoria to Liverpool Lime St, trains speed past the nearest station to Liverpool John Lennon Airport (for flights to Dublin) - I think the station name is Liverpool Parkway - and they speed onto Lime St, forcing people to get a Merseyrail service to the Airport from Lime St, not very easy with heavy luggage - over the years, there used to be direct coach services from Manchester Shudehill to Liverpool Airport but it would appear that since Covid, these seem to have been withdrawn - the Isle of Man Steam Packet company operate ferry services from Liverpool Port (via a new terminal) to Douglas and also from Douglas to Dublin Port - there also used to be overnight coach services from Manchester Shudehill to Dublin and another National Express 880 one from Leeds via Manchester Chorlton St and via Liverpool Bus Station to the Ferry at Holyhead, but this too has been withdrawn - the only one that still exists now is the 871 one from London Victoria via Birmingham to Dublin (with coach connections from Manchester) but given that the Irish government is planning to follow and EU directive and ban all “short-haul” flights between Ireland and the U.K. this remains a huge concern, as ferries can’t keep up with the demand across the Irish Sea as it is

[@Sim0nTrains]

Interesting results but I do remember the old video and great that you went back to redo it with the Class 777s, Great video

[@jakewynn]

@Sim0nTrains I wonder if the new aventras can outpace the 323s on the cross city line? Do you have some unedited footage from a 323 journey to compare it?

[@vinceturner3863]

Thanks for posting. The weight of the train is a factor, so you need to weigh all the passengers! Also if there are leaves on the line the acceleration could be affected and extra braking time might be needed to avoid sliding beyond the stop signal at the station. Some years ago this happened one wet autumn morning, when I was travelling on a 2-car class 456 at Denmark Hill; it was absolutely crammed full of passengers and skidded right past the platform. Passengers were told they could get off at Clapham High Street, where they would wait nearly 30 minutes for a train back.

[@Class777]

I remembered the day I watched your old video, the good old days hey.. great video Nick!

[@southWesternYT]

Though I'll miss the PEPs, I think the new 777s are still a pretty nice improvement. Merseyrail did a good job replacing a good train with another good train :)

[@smallsleepyrascalcat]

Please don't fill in hot ashes. You're welcome. 🤣

[@Clivestravelandtrains]

You could have got a weekly season ticket, and gone back and forth for a whole week. Then analysed if there was a "fast day" and a "slow day". Another point - when they electrified the Glasgow-Edinburgh lines, we were promised faster trains. They may be faster but Network Rail seem unable to alter the timings programmed into the timetabling computer, because now a lot of trains idle at intermediate stations for a couple of minutes waiting for the departure time. So the trains are just as slow overall as when they were diesel.

[@andreawoelke]

Factors which may be relevant: 1. The timetables haven't changed and indeed one train was 2 min early, which seems to indicate that these twins do run faster. 2. Particular drivers have particular driving styles so if you got the same unit coming back from. New Brighton, you may have had the dame driver. 3. A very short distance might mean the trains cannot even accelerate to their full potential. A variation could be to test between the penultimate and last station at rush hour when trains are already running late, but you probably don't have the 2022 benchmark for that.

[@Timothycan]

"Bitte keine heisse asche einfullen" means 'Please do not fill with hot ashes', so you got that right. I expect that now, if a train gets delayed a bit, the driver could make up the time more easily on these new trains, so that would help keep to the time-table when it gets busier.

[@1eatransportnorthwest]

Hi Nick, I saw you on the Sefton Sparkler 507 Railtour! Nice video

[@bobbythomas200420032]

Hi Nick an awesome video and i really enjoyed you timing the journeys and see the comparisons bet ween the peps class 507 and 508 compared to the new 777 class.

[@GeorgeWynn-i6y]

I’d love it if you visit some of the stations on the Portsmouth Direct Line

[@katashworth41]

It’s nice to see British (and especially North Western) trains after 2 weeks bimbling around Germany and Austria. Though having been on the ICE 3 neo it does put the Pendolinos into perspective, good Lord are those seats terrible.

[@Jake.Blakeley]

Great video as always Nick! Keep it up

[@Transportationspotting]

Very interesting to see a definite comparison, from what I’ve heard and read, they can be much faster but have power draw issues and no matter the acceleration, there’s a net zero time change because of the longer time spent at stations, according to a mix of railforums and a freightliner driver who was route learning that I talked to

[@woofaloo809]

Hi Nick, interesting video, I think the driver input might be a major factor here. On another matter, I have a point to point suggestion - Edenbridge Town to Edenbridge. Could get an Uckfield service from Edenbridge Town & alight at Eridge. Then use the Spa Valley heritage railway to Tunbridge Wells West, walk to the Tunbridge Wells mainline station to go to Tonbridge, then change to Redhill service to get to Edenbridge

[@sarahbennett3946]

8:39 lol there’s a 507/508 in the depot 😂

[@MaxTaylor-k4v]

Cool video nick 👌

[@Jakeso]

I get the train every morning, what I notice is the acceleration on the 777s is typically better in the summer (I assume owing to the poorer weather conditions and rail adhesion in the winter / autumn). In the summer, I usually notice harsher acceleration. I could be completely off there, but that's what I think I've noticed. Also, as another comment pointed out, when the train is running late is when you can really see the difference as compared to the PEPs.

[@TheSugarDaddy1]

Hey Nick great video my local stations I wonder you going to do a pointless journey from Brighton to New Brighton one day

[@Idowhateverreally]

You guys should do a Jet lag style game like tag across the UK, I’ve been dying to see how it would turn out!

[@justlogmein2011]

The loop line could be faster as it was a key criteria of the trains to improve running on the tight curves. It could also be to add extra loading time at the busiest stations whilst keeping to the same timetable.

[@iainfreeman5112]

The Merseyrail videos made me a fan of yours.

[@barvdw]

I'd be interested to know how much the door and doorstep have added (if any) to the whole ride. I know the older trains here might not have had the same acceleration, but opening the door was almost immediate, with the new ones, you have to wait for the doorstep to fold out/slide out before the doors even start to open...

[@MercenaryPen]

seems like any variation in timings has more to do with how willing individual drivers are to use the full acceleration of the new trains

[@TerrificTransport]

I remember back in 2018 when they did a mock up of the 777s at lime st and Birkenhead, I went to the Birkenhead one and they told me they can do journeys 5 - 10 minutes faster

[@Vomahanew]

The faster acceleration you mentioned only significantly affects the ride time to a certain point. The distance in the second trial, based on comparitive times, seems to be much shorter than in the first, so the effect the better acceleration had on the time was more noticeable, and thus the lower average. As you mentioned at the end, the timetables didn't change, and I'm willling to bet the track speed limits didn't either. I'd be interested to see this done on a stretch that increased its speed limit between the first trial and now, if that even exists.

[@MirkoC407]

"Please don't put hot ashes in" - makes me wonder what a German labelled wastebin is doing in Merseyside...

[@GoingFullCircleUK]

It's good that you have gone back to experiment to see if the trains are quicker.

[@DarrenChilvers]

Take in too account differences in time of day and weather... however keep eye on upcoming timetable changes

[@CallingAt]

Seeing whether your train is faster or not is quite a roulette. At the end of the day, you still reach your destination, if the 777 doesn't end up breaking down again (swear that happens every time im on the Merseyrail Network) P.S the PEPs are such a throwback. I'll miss them dearly

[@WezRail]

The current timetable is based on the Class 50x's, the 777's timetable should be BNW-BOT 0:59 and Walton and Orrell Park 0:58.

[@NickBadley]

Had a feeling that the timetable would still be for the 507s and 508s right now! Guess I now need to wait another 2 and a half years to do this and see if the timetable is melded round the 777s 🤣

[@WezRail]

@@NickBadley I'm doing timing runs for Merseyrail soon for the timetable change to the 777 timetable this year. I'll see if they'll let me provide the data so you can look at it for an idea

[@Nooticus]

Great video

[@ReubenAshwell]

Brilliant video Nick. Interesting, I honestly thought the 777's would be slightly quicker.

[@jacobporrett]

Interesting Nick thank you

[@ljjordanscottcrawford2008]

you should do the glasgow subway again but this time do it from partick to partick

[@PhilHoughton-k7j]

Better acceleration uphill and on curves from James St. to Moorfields with the 777’s. No noticeable improvement on the flat straight.

[@christiangraham1]

I’ve travelled the Liverpool for Merseyrail on March 4 2025 and I rode on the peps and the 777

[@AutoclaveMachine]

The train acceleration doesn’t really affect the speed since the timetable is still the same and the drivers will accelerate or decelerate slower to give a smoother ride, unless they are late since they want to make up time.

[@andrewnelson4057]

It doesn't make the journey "shorter", it makes them possibly QUICKER....

[@lamitron]

3:58 hehe thats what she said

[@MidlandMark]

As you say, not a difinitive conclusion, however Grove Rd-Wallesey Village is 6.8% faster and, if you add in the Wallesey Village-Grove Road journeys, you still have a 3.6% journey time decrease. As for James St-Moorfields - the reduction in journey times is... 6.8%! So, it's possible the Wallesey Village-Grove Road leg is the outlier, and there actually has been an improvement.

[@kevanhubbard9673]

They look very similar to the new Tyne and Wear Metro trains which are also DC electric.

[@RenzeKoper]

Makes sense that on the very early train the driver didnt push as much

[@kieranstravels]

I'm pretty sure that original video was what made me subscribe back then! I'm glad you remembered the promise and came back to do it again :)

[@Thornaby37]

I think the real test will be whether the 777s manage 46 years service like the PEPs did

[@matthewbarratt6145]

Or the 47 years of the AM3s

[@RobertSmylie2025]

I think the the class 777 speed is On external supply: 75 mph (120 km/h) 777/1 in battery mode: 62 mph (100 km/h)

[@paulsummerfield6357]

Must've filmed this a few weeks/months ago, been cancelled for a few days due to snow and ice now!

[@averagetrainspotterireland]

Is that a 230 in that depot?

[@neilcrawford8303]

Birkenhead North depot, yes. TfW 230s used on the Bidston to Wrexham services.

[@neilcrawford8303]

It's not really a relevant test seeing as the trains are constrained by having to run to a timetable that's based on 507/508 timings. Until recently it was still possible for a 507 to substitute for a 777. 777s have approximately three times the power to weight ratio to the 507s. 777 = 2,800hp (max) @ approx 99t 507 = 880hp @ approx 98t The power system has been improved with upgraded substations and the voltage increased so future services can be accelerated. Now it's exclusively 777s, it will be interesting to see what the future revised timetables are.

[@mrvwbug4423]

Even if the 777s are quicker, the drivers are probably just easing into the throttle to give a smoother ride vs starting off at full throttle. They also might simply be set to accelerate at the same rate as the PEPs, like on the NYC subway where all the trains regardless of age are designed to accelerate at the exact same rate, so any train can run any timetable in their system.

[@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire]

PEPs accelerate at 0.75ms-2 and the 777s accelerate at 1.1ms-2.

[@H-theTrainspotter]

when was this filmed nick

[@Locomotiviert]

3:55 Please no hot ash in fill / Please do not add hot ash

[@konradc12]

Only watched a few minutes into your video and unless the timetable is adjusted to take advantage of newer trains performance, no difference! It's like rushing to get to the next red light. More time will be spent waiting at the station. Keep a record of the timetables and changes, then you will know if there are any changes.

[@SCRguy-k3d]

R.I.P PEPS

[@NameReveal-yy7qb]

Can you please visit all merseyrail stations again only using 777s

[@Woday3-SCR]

Anyone else noticed that he stopped the video at 507 😂❤

[@Saint_Dan132]

Gen anticipation , train geeks what we like ?

[@andybray9791]

Speed limits stay the same. The older it (the train) gets the slower the acceleration

[@JoeMyers-no8kb]

You know whats interesting after moorfields they say the next stop is lime street please change here for city line and long distance services only West Kirby and New Brighton lines say that and then as for Chester and Ellesmere Port lines they say this train is for either Chester or Ellesmere Port the next stop is lime street please change here for city line and long distance services as it goes on and then after lime street only West Kirby New Brighton and sometimes Ellesmere Port lines say the next station is liverpool central or the next stop is liverpool central please change here for all northern line services and as for Chester lines they say this train is for Chester the next stop is liverpool central please change here for all northern line services is that interesting of what the announcement says of what station is next

[@MTGP1525]

I missed the last class 507 farewell tour because my mum didn't want to drive all the way to Liverpool and back again back to where she lives in a day. 😤

[@ZLDSmogless]

Is it just me watching hoping that the new trains are slower?

[@thebritishrailroader]

I made my first trip to Liverpool just before Christmas and had a little ride on Merseyrail. I was very impressed and quite liked the class 777s, though as a train spotter of a certain age, I would have loved to have had a ride on one of the old PEPs. I did happen to make a little video 😉 kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpKXdaWXf7BgsKssi=MV1aX-92EdG-NCb6

[@Getonboardwithlucas]

This has got nothing to do with this but as a pointless journey you could travel between new mills new town and new mills central

[@jakewynn]

This goes to show that replacing trains (unless they are absolutely knackered) is not worth it and is frankly a waste of money. I dont know how WMT justified getting rid of the desiros and 323s when they were still mechanically perfect. The 323s were an icon, they were there when the line was first electrified and the desiros still felt new. Complete waste and such a shame.

[@williamhuang8309]

*cough cough* class 365s

[@neilcrawford8303]

Great comment, and wrong. The timetables haven't been changed yet from the 507/8 days as until recently 507s could still substitute for a 777. Services still have to maintain the old schedule.

[@jakewynn]

@@williamhuang8309 yep they were barely 20 years old. I rembwr them being brand new. They are still in frequent service on the WCML though, a far more profitable route. I really don't get it.

[@jakewynn]

@neilcrawford8303 This makes sense actually. This is why the S Stock only got full power unlocked several years after replacing the metro cammel stock

[@SCRVIDS]

train

[@StephenCowley-o4u]

does it really matter if the trains are a few seconds quicker between stations than at some time in the past not really, the only people it seems to matter to are people like yourself its an important fact that 'nerds' like you are timing trains to the vey second and its important to you -maybe- that people like me are eatching you do it still, important or not, thats another few minutes of an otherwise cold and miserable Saturday afternoon wasted perhaps I ought to get out more!!

[@TrainLifeGB]

Obviously, you aren't a train enthusiast. We all are train enthusiasts, so just because you don't find it fun and find it a waste of time doesn't mean we do.