Nicole Perlroth: "This Is How They Tell Me The World Ends" | Amanpour and Company

Today’s cyber arms race is a truly global battle and the targets aren’t just nation-states: Each of us is individually vulnerable every time we log into our email, order a rideshare, or swipe our credit card. New York Times journalist Nicole Perlroth says the U.S. is not doing enough to protect its citizens. She joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss cybersecurity and her new book.
Originally aired on April 20, 2021.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe to the Amanpour and Company. channel here: bit.ly/2EMIkTJ
Subscribe to our daily newsletter to find out who's on each night: www.pbs.org/wnet/amanpour-and-...
For more from Amanpour and Company, including full episodes, click here: to.pbs.org/2NBFpjf
Like Amanpour and Company on Facebook: bit.ly/2HNx3EF
Follow Amanpour and Company on Twitter: bit.ly/2HLpjTI
Watch Amanpour and Company weekdays on PBS (check local listings).
Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
#amanpourpbs

[@dopatap3595]

Perlroth's book is like discovering the existence of a new science.

[@mtn1793]

Kind of icing on the cake, Eisenhower’s farewell warning... Be aware the military industrial complex.

[@mackenziedog1872]

Decades ago the person o rented a bed from told me "the miltary industrial complex". Sad, you got so few followers

[@audraeden8923]

More like this, please. Questions answered…more questions now……….we need this. Thought provoking and reasoned interview, thank you. As long as we have the Republican Cult of Corporations, we won’t get solutions. Not from them, not even in spite of them.

[@patrickhenry9846]

I like that. A Republican cult of Corporation's. More thoughts on that, please. And thumbs up.

[@piercebales9546]

Never a word about NSA response.

[@digitalperson108]

Well…should not be. One can bet they are on it.

[@cordellsenior9935]

Mum's the word.

[@RalphDratman]

Nobody should be using software like Microsoft Windows (or any retail-level operating system) in connection with systems which must be secure. The key parts of such systems should be based on simplified, fully debugged modules deployed in read-only filesystems and run on single-user, preferably single-tasking real-time operating systems. That is the only way we have a chance of making our key infrastructure safer against attack.

[@Damacles9]

We've already lost a future world war. Turn off the nukes = Done.

[@edcatt9196]

Is it possible to transfer much of our daily communications back to the era of paper and pencils? Maybe we will eventually be forced to? Pencils, ink pens, paper, envelopes, stamps---maybe their still viable, even necessary tools going forwards in the future? Who would have thought?

[@robincrowflies]

As long as we make the paper out of hemp, I'm down with it.

[@americanartist6485]

If we can get DeJoy out of the Post Office so the mail can be delivered in a timely fashion.

[@danielstadden1149]

So you think nobody ever read a piece of mail that wasn't theirs

[@magsbrowne3447]

I don't think that the technology train can be stopped now. However, one of the advantages of the technology society was supposed to be that we would be a 'paperless society' and save forests. Seems to me that we're using way more paper today than ever before.

[@alexwyler4570]

March 2021, youtuber Unjaded Jade who is in Seoul ( Minerva school system) wrote beautiful letters with handmade drawings for her family in England. Seoul is a very futuristic city, very technically advanced. fastest wifi everywhere. Yet, because of covid, there were no mail/package planes flying to England. so she ended up taking pictures of her beautiful hand written letters and sent them digitally. I was very surprised that there were no longer mail service between England and Seoul Korea. because of COVID. just a thought.

[@Rnankn]

The problem is that cyber attacks are a new kind of conflict. Things like: visibility (is it happening), attribution (from where), characterization (is it an attack), responsibility (from non-state groups), deterrence (how much is enough). But I know the Russian strategy is to preemptively plant disruptive capabilities and then deploy them before a ground attack. I also know that the US could turn off the lights in Moscow at any time, but no one knows how digital attacks escalate or when to respond with conventional weapons. So does one week of the power grid equal one ICBM?

[@stephendoherty8291]

The bigger problem is tracing who did it. Any cyberattack actor can claim they were not the culprit. A truly expert NK actor could set off a cyberattack weapon and make it look like the act or another state. In most cases the attacks never come from any state but from a remote device long ago captured. We also know that there are sleepcell type cyber weapons left in many places waiting to go off if an attack is ordered. Luckily for the NK, its ransomeware they need but Chinese state assisted hackers have no reason to expose their breach and like most well orchestrated ransomware attacks, patience and time will allow the attacker to gain further access unless they make a mistake or trip a landmine.

[@danyellerobinson5940]

All the more reason to avoid arming AI's with weaponry.

[@whygohome172]

What if they hack the rich people and take all their money?

[@philoctetes_wordsworth]

HOPEFULLY!

[@ericmuschlitz7619]

Then you just have different rulers, that are less ethical.

[@helserj]

This is the balance of the power structure we have in place. There is nothing stopping hackers from turning their "talents" against their dark money employer.

[@ericmuschlitz7619]

@@helserj that would not benefit the consumer/citizen, then you have a rogue entity with no oversight.

[@helserj]

@@ericmuschlitz7619 Agreed - Indeed, it would not. The whole thing is a house of cards.

[@e-spy]

What a great interview. thanks!

[@rahmanraisur]

I have visualize, the end of the world,when I was going to perform my Haj in 2005. What I saw during the morning prayer call on my to Mecca,was scary. I recently saw those sign during Palestine,Israel conflict , Afghanistan conflict . I was someone who was not religious but always helped poor . I saw my almighty through the eyes of poor n needy

[@SansAI0]

Very important subject. While we watch for meteors, the cyber doors get pried open, the lights go out and government is lost…

[@tarajoyce3598]

People holding key US offices and many voters are too old to understand the new tech age very well. Being obsolete sucks so most will not admit they shouldn't be directing policy in this arena. Industrial age folks weren't considered in the tech age, simply disenfranchised, so they're dismissive about it. What are we going to do to fix that? A department of technology run by young people? Bet we would cry about the cost. I get that it's better than military spending but those who think wars are still fought with tanks will not.

[@rabit818]

I better look for my old Thomas Guide to get around town. Seriously, how can we go back to 1995? We are so spoiled with our laptops and phones.

[@drakezen]

An absolutely wonderfully written book; rather impressive

[@gmock9427]

Excellent interview!

[@Yourdeadmeat69]

Used to be our Department of Defense software was insular and unique. 30 years ago a lot of us protested going to the public servers instead of DOD infrastructure. The bean counters said it would be cheaper. Many of us saw increased vulnerability was not worth it. We lost. And we're going to continue to lose. ---- 1/17/22 edit. The Russians are practising cyber war in the Ukraine. Guess who's next? WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO? #malone.

[@iamlegend6676]

This is great news. I am glad to know this.

[@Yourdeadmeat69]

@@iamlegend6676 Hi Vlad.

[@iamlegend6676]

@@Yourdeadmeat69 Vlad???

[@digitalperson108]

I would argue, it was insular and unique because it was fully isolated…barely even connected within the same branch. “Networking” was limited to point to point link…not really even a network. I think economy of scale and the consumer computing capabilities and tech grew so fast. I remember in the early to mid 90s…many people had pc’s….the military….less so. General computing needs arose quickly and needed answers now. Off the shelf private sector tech was the answer. DoD developing its own OS for computing made no sense. Of course, remember at the start, no one was worried about security, especially at the beginning of networking…both LAN and WAN. I would also argue…critical computing for DoD is very secure and unique. The main problem we have is the same as in the corporate sector. The human link is the weakest. General understanding about the technology in use every day is the Achilles heal. Add to that the growing idea (from the newer generation) that privacy is of no matter and the apathy towards security grows. The world has been playing catch up on security for decades. As tech developers continue to simplify the devices and OS’s people use every day…built in security and true testing and QA in those development areas is critical.

[@Yourdeadmeat69]

@@digitalperson108 Security was shouted down by those thinking economies of scale using the weight of the private sector would be something that could be leveraged. Those of us who were military with the most to lose the real security-conscious? we weren't sitting in some armchair making pontifical rules, we lived a life where daily security meant life or death. Many of those in high places making decisions to use the public internet Highway were tied into the profit motive -- they had stocks like Microsoft and other investments in making sure the private sector got their Lion's Share of the governmental trough. We were outgunned, below the pay grade of those making decisions and expendable foot soldiers. And we still are. Maybe we won't be after Russian contractors turn the lights off as well as the gas and we learn the hard way. But I doubt it

[@phaedrussmith1949]

I'm sure the book is good, but the world isn't going to end. The world is going to be just fine. It may be how the humans end, but in the view from the long lens - and despite the hubris of the humans' view of their own importance - they are in fact just a small and somewhat inconvenient moment in time for the world on its journey to be whatever it is that the world is.

[@lastjob2011]

I think a term people are more willing to accept is: 'the end of life as we know it'

[@nancycrawford2033]

I is that overwhelming egoic presumption that has been our undoing as a species; that lack of a sense of proportion which has disconnected so many from Nature and the Source, and gratitude for a chance at human birth.

[@deicide666100]

Or just steal an entire Carlin bit, the world has been here for a long time, it’s survived much worse than anything we have done so don’t worry about the earth, it’s humans that are fucked

[@johnsomebody1753]

"The World" is not the planet. It's quite possible for it to end, while the planet continues, with life evolving on it.

[@chuckmorton8823]

here here

[@stanleydorsey2884]

The reason for hackers are greed,injustice or not being able to coexist across the world fairly. Adopting a technology of running before walking or like finding life in space and can't respect there culture. In other words our technical potential depends on our human interaction.

[@kzinful]

Who knew that William Gibson's Neuromancer would end up being a work of prophecy.

[@lovman]

I worked in the IT industry for 34 years, leaving it 10 years ago. I still follow it. Security and Privacy has always been a concern within the industry, going back 60 years. It really gained importance 30 years ago with the rise of the Internet. My then CEO noted that if "our" industry did not take this seriously, then everthing "we" hoped to accomplish with the "digitization of everything" would be put at risk. I doubt even he thought western democracy and a well functioning capitalist economy and society would be on that list. If I was a rising tech person today, I would develop skills in this area and would have both job security for my entire career and would be working in the most important field within the tech community today.

[@tracysample6942]

"well functioning capitalist economy?"

[@Damacles9]

Risers -- AI will convincingly laugh as it takes your job. Race to the bottom with blinders on, as usual. Carry on, pip, pip. Lol

[@finddeniro]

Read her Book.. Frightening... serious...

[@waynecole7781]

Wow this is so....infectious!!

[@jeanduranko4157]

I grew up in the 50's & 60's. I'd go back in a heart beat.

[@ProctorsGamble]

Except for a few things Yes!

[@1Tonari]

For me, I don’t want to be a house wife, having to say or respect, or unable to get get credit unless a man co-signs, or if man leaves have no power to get a job as I’m unskilled. So as a man I get it let’s go back, as a woman I say ain’t no way. Can’t put the genie back it the bottle know matter how much you try.

[@user-cv2df5cr8i]

Cut all cables ? Back into walks and talks? Relevant decisions without any devices in the room (/in the house)? Certainly not the choice for the most „because ‚because‘“ . Does an old fashioned typewriter help? Certainly not everyone. But each „tshlokk“ - warm sound of letter hitting ink soaked ribbon - ... ink leaving traces - fluid thoughts - each „tshokk“ is creating the rare moment of feeling saved in one of the rarest left sphere of a safe space in current structures.

[@bethpowers2502]

we have a wealth of young people who are digitally savvy. the current state of polarization chaos discourages them from using their skills

[@DennisMoore664]

2:00 she left out, "...or engage in some new version of the old COINTELPRO dirty tricks program". I trust the government about as far as I can throw it.

[@dinnerwithfranklin2451]

Interesting, thank you.

[@uradragon7823]

i could not stop reading it. Another reason for a stockpile. Funding the military makes some people rich. Protecting the infrastructure and the American public doesn't. Shows you who is running the government.

[@coolbreeze2.0-mortemadfasc13]

lol Our info is out there and compromised. I don't even worry about it anymore.

[@moriahsavage5275]

Damn!...DO NOT WANT TO AGREE WITH YOU !.. 🤑 BUT I DO!!!🤢🤮🤮🤮 be blessed. be well... 🙄😳🥺🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@optimalperformanceconsulta5813]

Brave researcher and writer. Disconcerting to say the least.

[@lexusls4305]

The entire interview I’m waiting for the reporter to ask the author to tell the story behind her book’s intriguing title. Does he? Nope! Journalism 101

[@PinprickSociety]

I would like to quote the Bible, but I didn't read it. I will quote Cobain instead: "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you." In the great American classic novel, the top dog eventually finds a front closing in, a tired and greedy man sees his face in the black clouds that come to greet him in his last hour, the overly intellectual punk waxes pithily in long wind. In every great history book, distilled icons of the past appear gaudy and ridiculous in contrast with their hubris, their failures, their relative stupidity. Is it always a fact that you do not know that you don't know? A dictator of the past wrote a book describing what he was going to do, and it was too late before anyone took it seriously. Rome did not know it had to be run like a corporation and not give any regional manager too much power. I, too, think we are losing, and am bracing. If we were winning, this would not be happening. None of it. We watched the pandemic come and hit us like beachgoers who are taking videos of a tsunami because they don't understand the reality of it. We watched our passwords and personal information get sucked away. Greed cloaked our eyes with sports and movies, etc, while it walked away with our hearts and minds. You can't look out over this country from the top of that purple mountain and sense that enough people give a damn about it. That. That is the real detail the devil is swimming in. TL/DR: just a little dystopic rambling. Keep moving.

[@dakrontu]

Software startups under pressure to release product in advance of competitors are not going to worry about bugs and security weaknesses when they are at existential risk if anything slows them down. If those issues get addressed, it will be later, when existence is assured, and they realise they need to protect it.

[@helserj]

This reminds me of that movie "Eagle Eye" when the heroes were being tracked using every bit of technology on the "network" - scary stuff. Most folks do not take any of this seriously. I often hear, "I'm boring, if they want to spy on me go ahead." I don't know that people understand how serious this is.

[@finddeniro]

Read Nicole's Book . Wild Science Fact...

[@digitalperson108]

Spot on. I tell people all the time. You don’t care about privacy until you REQUIRE it.

[@michaelmeyer5215]

I love it, everyone spying on everyone, privacy is dead, we so clever. Luckily our time on this beautiful planet is going to be short. All thanks to brilliant us. Let's all be happy that we spy on each other and absolutely can't be respectful enough through intelligence (?) to give privacy.

[@badsign49]

Jagger's Law: EVERYBODYS GOT TO GO.

[@jamesrobinson7381]

This is the problem with so-called "open systems". Technicians love it. Because it has common features that allows basic commands to be known by everybody. Like the command Ping which when issued a million times becomes the Denial of Service Attack via the "Ping of Death". We need a secure internet that demands you are validated to use it? And when bad actors do bad things, we can stop you in your tracks.

[@finddeniro]

I got the Book from the Library...and the Pipeline deal goes down.. This book is Frightening. Twilight Zone ...

[@danielstadden1149]

President Biden just lifted the sanctions on the Nord stream 2 pipeline

[@christinearmington]

@@danielstadden1149 Hmmmm .... 🤨🧐

[@finddeniro]

@@danielstadden1149 . .Qhat went Wongo.?

[@danielstadden1149]

@@finddeniro Jesus Tommy a year later? After revisiting this, I think my comment was tied into the colonial pipeline hack from May of '21.

[@finddeniro]

@@danielstadden1149 . Chaos versus Control.. Big Global Fast Moving Events . Nicole's Book Frightening / Dangerous..

[@meggallucci5300]

This is interesting, but I cannot follow her very well because her speech is a constant stream without breaks.

[@asecretturning]

I often use the pause option or even slow the speed of playback to help with this too. Cheers!

[@heathermelissa3662]

Then use c.c. Why did you feel the need to write this when you are the one with the problem? I guess you just desperately need attention that bad.

[@paulmccarter908]

@@heathermelissa3662 Why go out of your way to act like a dick? Only you can answer that question.

[@commonground5214]

@@heathermelissa3662 It seems to me that YOU may be the one who needs attention "that bad" Why be so negative?

[@catsmeow6848]

Quit FB, hardly use my card online, and never give any more info than necessary. Sick of social media, don't go there anymore.

[@dalepetersen1166]

If Putin is behind all this trouble maybe Seth Rogan should give him some Gum

[@lizannewhitlow1085]

Where to find an update on Solar Winds? Surely tRUmp had an action plan following his analysis?

[@mvann5]

Well past time to go back to an analog world. No one asked if thus was the world we wanted.

[@scottdavis3571]

Impossible.

[@DebberaThompson]

So are you talking about protecting personal secrets like racketeering, swindling and thieving, planning, a bombing, or a mass shooting, or organizing an insurrection, if your a double agent or a spy, sex trafficking, or Paedophiles. Or information like he’s cheating on her, she’s cheating on him, or she said he said. What can be so damaging unless it’s against the law.

[@bonegrubber]

sHE has a wonderful voice

[@BG-qo8ol]

The govt runs on windows 98. Maybey they could upgrade!

[@JourneysTravels]

This is very grim news.

[@1suitcasesal]

Very interesting video. Really our new warfare battlefield is cyberspace.

[@yanstev]

What is being done to track and punish people caught illegally hacking, both within the US and Internationally? Globally, it seems to be in everyone's best interest to have some sort of Cyberspace policing policy and capabilities.

[@abrahambenisreal2448]

This is how divided your nation is. If they cannot come together and agree on fixing potholes in America there is nothing else they will agree to. I'm not telling you not to be optimistic. Let's be honest though, there are many past sins that America has not dealt with but simply put on the back burner and forgotten. Now those chickens come home, to roost.

[@billderinbaja3883]

ASK: So how does this affect me? I have nothing of importance online? Right?... It affects you because there are countries who would dance in the streets if they could bring down the US banking system, the stock market, bring down the electrical grid... and so many other vulnerabilities I am not even aware of. If you can't see how all of that would affect you, then you should start using your imagination, search your fears... what's the worst that could happen? The end of America... the destruction of the world economy... nuclear and/or biological war. These are the stakes.

[@bk9852]

curious what would Snowdens reaction be to this

[@solarnaut]

3:18 ". . . into our gas pipelines . . . "

[@BG-qo8ol]

What happened on 1/6/21?

[@noammusk519]

If someone finds a bug in Windows or iPhone, how is it the hacker's fault? Isn't it only Microsoft and Apple's fault?

[@daleanolan1464]

No if you see a bunch of money sitting in someone's account you shouldn't take it just because you can. You would be the wrong doer!

[@chuckm1961]

@@daleanolan1464 In addition to what Dalea said, It is childishly oversimplistic to place blame in a black-white manner. It’s rarely if ever true that one party is completely blameless and another is completely at fault.

[@robertmacdonnell258]

Microsoft's business strategy from the start was to leave plenty of back doors for the use of premier customers.

[@charlesbeaudry3263]

Oh and US never does or sponsor malicious hacking. We know that is not so.

[@parkerxgps8101]

Wonder why I didn't see this earlier. Sad how much people in government seem to still think, making citizens victims doesn't come back to hurt.

[@deepattison9329]

Doubt that they care.

[@leandroguimaraesbatista4715]

Donna amanpour&co what killed Odete Roitman in Brazil novel kkkkkk.

[@reverendbStaard]

Look! Paris Geller grew up!! Oh, baby!

[@DaleCovert]

OPEN SOURCE PEOPLE! comeon.

[@easyrecipesanddeliciousfoo2954]

🌸🌺🌷

[@garymclaughin]

Smart lady, as far as critical infrastructure leave the old manual in there as back up. Or just hard wire it in and when building new facility put in the old manual as well. I mean critical infrastructure.🤠

[@stephendoherty8291]

I thought it was an Israeli security firm that offered the Apple ios hack that the FBI (and CIA likely) used to gain access

Next week, crowbars and angle grinders.

[@1Tonari]

Thought provoking and how can the average person help stop the proliferation of our data

[@suckmecok]

I have a brand new Samsung S21 and I'm convinced that my email, phone, and laptop have been hacked.

[@debrajohnson8030]

Maybe the government should put laws in where these cyber workers they use maybe have to sign a contract or if there american they can't be helping forighn nations and make it illegal.

[@patricialongo5746]

There's also the UFO problem. The Airforce can't tell what's really out there, either.

[@jonneumann2303]

Thats because its not a problem. Ufos=us military

[@jc.1191]

@@jonneumann2303 Yeah most likely the military bragging.

[@pinchebruha405]

Remuer all the sightings before the stealth bomber was revealed….yeaaaaaaaah its like that!

[@halfmoon5700]

Amanpour aka the reaper.

[@sergioperezio5523]

Is that marjorie taylor greene younger sis? She said we are still the top dog like that is a good thing. It's a good idea to know how to throw a punch and block and duck but "don't start nuthan there won't be nuthan" is most times good advice.

[@davidmclean619]

That can't be the world and every plant animal and mineral was made for us humans

[@dr.josefudeyama64]

Just had my ID and wells fargo account hacked. 200k gone

[@elizabethhurtado4079]

👍

[@thomasdarling2553]

Plan ahead for a potentially dangerous world changing event? Pish posh...Naah...

[@meafordmichael]

Do wake up, “Darling” .....

[@thomasdarling2553]

@@meafordmichael can't think of any time when multiple warnings of a future disaster were ignored by society at large...

[@johnmitchell2741]

Hope nobody hacks a nuke lunch

[@shokprof2064]

🙏🏿 G2💞🌎💞2G 🙏🏻

[@duggydugg3937]

when national debt gets too big ytoyy yypyay...we are toast.. nobody seems to notice..

[@duggydugg3937]

@Sinkpehna RossFire gibberish the debt is skyrocketing..when gvt fails to redeem...pay back... maturing T bonds... dark ages

[@duggydugg3937]

@Sinkpehna RossFire Carter never did squat about the national debt.. presidents who tried got shot or poisoned.... gvt is bought... owned by the central bankers.. CBD central bank dynasty is the author of the now $30 T Debt.... gvt is controlled b b b b bribery.. Obvious blackmail.. the Lolita Express bullying.. Withhold campaign funds bullets.. JFK.. Linc.. McKinley.. Garfield et al

[@duggydugg3937]

@Sinkpehna RossFire nice that you know about past tense / present tense errors .. i read novels.. most authors jump tense a lot.. ex 'the last time he was here... here as in my living room the minute i'm reading it ? jarring....

[@duggydugg3937]

@Sinkpehna RossFire George Carlin in his video on education was trying to tell us a badly corrupt our financial system happens to be... his famous remark was nobody seems to notice nobody seems to care.....

[@mac-ju5ot]

I HD a back door on .gold co.putor from china. Saw him in back door....not much they can get off me but its I teresting

[@belladonnatook8851]

Not with a bang, but with a whimper?

[@Damacles9]

Extrapolate this to electronic voting. Yikes! Smh Edit: Russia vs Ukraine = USA vs Venezuela Edit 2: the government cares not for its citizens

[@donnagrupa8830]

1

[@hereigoagain5050]

Practice preemptive revenge

[@lizannewhitlow1085]

You mean stress of the last 7 years?

[@plo8monster113]

..

[@alanhaenni]

Kinda sad that what has been known by the tech commuiing for decades is now breaking news. No on ever listens to nerds.

[@beatasosinska3368]

I found Russia under my bed....God they are everywhere....

[@ursamagickmt672]

She looks an awful lot like MTG.

[@ImLisaMoore]

Russia, Russia, Russia!

[@edreeves121]

Don't ever equate hand to hand combat with keyboarding ( a combat vet).

[@scotthollander9995]

Keyboarding will stifle and stymie combat operations. Supply lines and logistics are vulnerable, how will you fight with no bullets, or food?

[@thomaspenoyer9711]

Read the ( our) Book of Revelation, and then try harder to understand it, the fight is not between you and me, it is always between choosing God or, not.

[@cooper482011]

Is Nicole Perlroth partially Asian?

[@typhoon320i]

she makes the T silent on any word that ends with a T. Example "but" - pronounced "buaa", "market" - pronounced "markeah"