Nitric acid by ostwald oxidation part 1

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Күн бұрын

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@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

So there are two things I already considered 1. High pressure leads to unwanted side reactions, which is the case here. My friend tried a run before, pulling the gas through with a vacuum pump, which went better. However it's obviously not great for the pump.(We need a good membrane pump I guess) 2. The tube we used has a pretty big diameter this probably reduces the flow rate, leading to an increased contact time. Too long contact time leads to decomposition of the NO

@guytech7310 Ай бұрын

Replace NH3 gas with Urea that will decompose into NH3 (no pressure issues) when heated. Second use a smaller diameter quartz tube with the Pt'zed wool longer inside so there is more contact time. instead of using a vacuum pump use Aspirator. You can drive the Aspirator using a small DC water pump, and add NaOH to neutralize acid, NOx's

@christopherleubner6633 Ай бұрын

Try using oxygen and ammonia instead of air. If you are getting too much AN smoke than you are getting too much ammonia in there. Also add a flash arrestor to prevent the ammonia from burning directly. Automobile catalyst bricks work well as the catalyst as the mix of platinum and rhodium on the first brick is similar to what's used industrially. The irony is that under reducing conditions found in exhaust, this brick is used to remove the nitrogen oxides formed by the high pressure combustion in the engine. ❤

@guytech7310 Ай бұрын

@@christopherleubner6633 He is using pure oxygen & NH3 (not the two gas bottles).

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@guytech7310We are actually using the ammonia bottle because we can control the glas flow better than feeding the output of the reaction into the ostwald reactor.

@guytech7310 Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry But you stated you had an issue with the pressure the bottle cooled as to draw NH3 from it. You should be able to control the NH3 output using Urea by thermal decomposing it & regulating the flow with temperature. Plus its probably a lot cheaper than purchasing an NH3 bottle. I am just making suggestion, not a criticism.

@nileblack Ай бұрын

I am LOVING this format of videos. Also the shy friend 😭😭 so cool. Also love the explanation and calming voice over

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@nileblack I'm glad you like it. Despite the difficulties with the audio xD

@Delta7Smith Ай бұрын

Loved your video. I have a suggestion you might consider. Coat the reaction vessel with sodium silicate and place some nichrome wire into it. After dried, add another layer of sodium silicate and allow to dry again. Once dried you can use your bench power supply to regulate and maintain a constant temperature. I look forward to your feedback. Cheers

@Abhishek-bc2wl Ай бұрын

Hope you get more recognition for what you do. Keep up the work

@xxxm981 Ай бұрын

>dammit, we only made NH4NO3 again idk man, a lot of people would be happy enough to get there lol

@josephgauthier5018 Ай бұрын

Woot, the nitric acid sequel to the last video! I hope you can get it working properly!

@geeljireoomaar6140 Ай бұрын

thanks bro it is really an interesting video but most amateurs do have have equipment you have

@shahin8349 Ай бұрын

Very nice video I enjoyed it , I tried this before and I had the same issue of too much ammonium nitrate , I used once pure platinum catalyst and second time the mix of chromium oxide and copper oxide, I think the second time I had more nitrogen dioxide but the ammonium nitrate problem still continued , Im willingly waiting for your next video to fix this issue 🤩🌹

@WaffleStaffel Ай бұрын

*It was an admirable attempt!* Does the catalyst need to be thinner, like the one or two layers of screen mesh/gauze used industrially? You can get platinum gas fireplace embers surprisingly inexpensively, I think it's on a rockwool substrate, I'm not entirely sure. It's more active than the platinized quartz wool I made- (Are you referring to the Astral Chem video?). I only made one attempt, I decided to save the remainder of my materials until I have something beside methanol or ammonia to test it on.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@WaffleStaffel ehat do you mean with thinner? Idk If I should confirm what video it is xD What we observed is that the platinum gets removed pretty fast, at least during our experiments.(In the industrial process it happens aswell to some extent) I made some new quarz wool with a bit more platinum in solution and also I'm planning to do the process twice so theres more platinum on it. Also I thought about using some other substrate because quarz wool is not that great to handle.

@WaffleStaffel Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry Thinner in that, from what I've seen in photos, it's just one or two layers of platinum mesh sort of stretched taught like a drum in the cross section of a tubular reactor, reducing the time it's in contact with the catalyst. Ok, I shall not press on the identity of the other video ;) The idea of having your Pt burning off into a fog hurts to think about!

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

That's an interesting idea.I will keep this in mind for future attempts👍 I was wondering how the catalyst is made industrially. It's definitely a fine balance between getting all the gas in contact with it, while only keeping it in contact for a very short time.

@kannacat1 Ай бұрын

You can put the ammonia tank in warm water to keep it from getting too cold

@amarpersaud2950 Ай бұрын

If you get a pressure regulator, you can keep constant pressure on the output of the bottle to prevent the fluctuations

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@amarpersaud2950 It had a pressure regulator, you can see it in the beginning in the explanation.

@amarpersaud2950 Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry 🤦

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@amarpersaud2950 ah the ammonia bottle xD Sorry. Yeah that's true. Just needs to be compatible with ammonia

@ramous5182 Ай бұрын

Does the nitrogen in air take away heat from the reaction? Maybe an oxygen concentrator could be used to provide pure oxygen.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

There is enough oxygen in the air. You saw in some points the catalyst got very hot. It's more about finding the right operating parameters which is hard to judge, because we just look at how brown the flask is.

@mixdxperience1000 Ай бұрын

pure oxygen -> risk of boom

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@mixdxperience1000 Indeed that aswell apart from being a total waste

@ae-bd5gr Ай бұрын

You said in your comment that the contact time is already too long, so i think to lower the amount of ammonium nitrate byproduct produced, you should reduce how much ammonia flows through the system and increase the flow of air, creating a more oxygen rich environment. Its just a suggestion, i don't know if it will actually work, but maybe you wanna try.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@ae-bd5gr yes, we played with all sorts of gas adjustments, if that would solve it, it would be easy.

@anotherguy9402 Ай бұрын

At first i though "that's kinda shady not wanting to be seen doing chemistry on KZbin" then i saw the channel name 😂😂😂 Yeah that's a reasonable request

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

There are plenty of chemistry videos with people showing their faces xD

@theonewhowas7709 Ай бұрын

0:01 definitly was not expecting that voice to come out of that dude like that.. lmao

@xxxm981 Ай бұрын

My idea was to electrically coat etched graphite with platinum instead of the mirroring solution (as that is not as easily available) makes the deposition much more controlled, and also faster i think? Could even use carbon fiber for it. Also i think i heard platinum-palladium is even better than just platinum. As opposed to rhodium which supposedly supports nitrogen formation.

@christopherleubner6633 Ай бұрын

If you are wanting to do this reaction on a hobby level but cannot find a suitable catalyst, you can use a section of brick 1 out of an automobile catalytic converter. The catalyst is coated with platinum 90% rhodium 10% which is fairly close to the screens used for making the nitrogen oxides on an industrial scale. They are 20% rhodium. If you want more nitrogen oxides then use pure oxygen and a low concentration of the ammonia vapors.❤

@Preyhawk81 13 күн бұрын

Try ammoniumdichromat on pumic stone as an catalyst. It did work for me. And you need an bypass for your ammonia tank so you can regulate air and ammonia flow if you have wihte clouds you have to much ammonia.

@thesciencefurry 12 күн бұрын

I"m trying to avoid that since rhe chromate is going to get carried into the acid. With platinum it's not that big of a deal.

@SolarSeeker45 Ай бұрын

For anyone who's interested in repeating this experiment: You can buy this catalyst ready made pretty cheaply. It's sold as platinum bright embers for gas fireplaces.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

Other people mentioned it already, but I just looked it up. Seems like a great solution fot it!

@andrewschmidt1257 5 күн бұрын

Would it be possible to skip platinum and use something else like iron or copper, albeit at a lower yield?

@thesciencefurry 5 күн бұрын

@@andrewschmidt1257 why would you want ti use that? We already have yield problems xD

@SolarSeeker45 5 күн бұрын

@@andrewschmidt1257 Yes copper is usable as a catalyst for nitric acid production. There are 2 big drawbacks to using copper. Aside from a lower yield the reaction doesn't produce enough heat to be self sustaining so you need an external heat source when using a copper catalyst. #2 Copper is soluble in nitric acid so it will get eaten away by the reaction products.

@Delta7Smith Ай бұрын

Secondary regulator on ammonia side?

@mrobinson9297 Ай бұрын

ive seen copper wire used wrapped similar to a clove hitch knot.

@frankhaese_DrHaeseGroup Ай бұрын

4:20: Oh yes, post a video about the Pt catalyst preparation, please.

@synth1002 Ай бұрын

Ok, where the F you found Quarzrohr with 29/32 Schliff?? Or is it custom made? I have such pipes in diferent diameters and it is always a problem to close ends, so i always need to improvise...

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

It is custom made. I have a smaller one that we probably gonna use in the next video. I got that online somewhere.

@WaffleStaffel Ай бұрын

I forgot to mention, maybe use an aquarium air bubbler meter to gauge the gas flows?

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@WaffleStaffel The problem is not the lack of instrumentation of the gas flow, but the difficulty to judge if it works. (By looking at the color in the flask) Also, like said, with the current setup the optimal point might be below the point it's self sustained.

@WaffleStaffel Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry Ahh. The ammonia flow really is high enough to chill the bottle? That's surprising to me, but then I've never been lucky enough to have lecture bottles, and the idea of making my own for ammonia is intimidating. I think my neighbors are too close to me if I were to have an accident. Anyway, thanks for the video, this is the most impressive attempt at the Otswalt process on YT.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

Yeah the bottle cools super fast with very little gas boiled off, that's why this gas is used as refrigerant.

@sashimanu Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry can you put the cylinder into a warm temperature controlled water/oil bath to compensate for the heat loss?

@WaffleStaffel Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry Ahh, of course. Makes sense, especially in an adsorption system. Maybe putting the bottle in a large basin of tepid water with a pump circulating the water would help stabilize the pressure.

@jmhannnon Ай бұрын

Perhaps you should electrically heat the quartz tube (tube furnace) to better control the temperature.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

This could be an option but it's suboptimal. The catalyst temperature is mainly influenced by the exothermic reaction itself. I would argue, if the catalyst is not maintaining it's optimal temperature, heating it is just treating the symptom of bad reaction conditions(like flow rate and composition of the incoming gas or maybe even the geometry of the catalyst)

@gitoss810 Ай бұрын

This is very good video

@plyaskinLab Ай бұрын

Very cool. Thanks.

@mikegLXIVMM Ай бұрын

You need flow meters on the air and ammonia.

@Relatablename Ай бұрын

Green chromium oxide is just as good of a catalyst here. Sandwich it in a narrow glass tube between two pieces of ceramic wool and it will work.

@thesciencefurry Ай бұрын

@@Relatablename Not really keen on using chromium. Even tho we are in a fume hood. I think industrially platinum is preferred, I'm sure for a good reason.

@Relatablename Ай бұрын

@@thesciencefurry OK, it's only +3 valency which isn't toxic, and it doesn't react at all but I'll respect it. Anyways your biggest problem is contact with the catalyst, as most ammonia passes over and complexes with the NOX gases which were produced. At least use a narrow glass blowing tube and fill a good amount of the length with your platinum wool.

@Preyhawk81 13 күн бұрын

That goes easier soak pumic stones in ammoniumdichromate solution. Heat the pumic stones and you have an fine Chromitrioxid catalyst. Usable few weeks bevore it gets to briddle. Natural pozzulana earth would be better than pumic, it holds up to 1200C (so they wrote)