No Body Steering Bike of the California Superbike School

[@onsapplikasies8620]

Here because Fast Eddie from MotoJitsu told me to watch this video to learn something!

[@halnwheels]

Funny thing is, I first learned about contersteering from the NJ Motorcycle handbook that they used to give to MC endorsement applicants. I tried it and excitedly told this to my coworker who sold me my first bike. "No way!", he said. He went on to remind me that he's been riding bikes since he was 12 years old and this was BS. About 6 months later he finally admitted that he realized he was doing this unconsciously all the time.

[@davidk1579]

Counter steering and not realizing your do it is very common, that's the same way for me, I never even heard of countersteering until I seen it on KZbin and then I sat and thought about it and I realized I was doing it and I didn't even realize it because it's such a small amount of movement.

[@aceofbase1541]

@@davidk1579 I started riding about 6 months ago, and my buddy been riding a couple of years and his dad been riding for 30 years, i learned about countersteering from a guy on youtube that rides for uber eats, I dont my buddy and his dad about counter steering and they both never heard about it, but they both very intelligent folks and after a minute or so they both admitted that they were doing it all the time and did not realise it, I learned trail braking in a corner form fast eddy motojitsu and I told my buddy how to do that and showed him the video of how to prevent the bike from standing up if you break in a corner and my buddy is now practising that to and he is now always consiencely using countersteering and he says he can now go faster through the same corner, counter steering is just how a 2 wheeled vehicle with the wheels in front of each other steers period, whether you realise that or not. His dad is not using conscience counter steering, he just keeps riding the same way he has done for 30 years, because he knows that that works, but he is now aware, then when he leans into a corner to the right, that his left arm is then pulling a little on the left handle bar and that he does counter steer.

[@mycommerceUSA]

This video - and concept of the No BS Bike - is brilliant. So many folks out there think CS is a myth and/or something that they don't need to do. This bike utterly dispels that myth. If more folks learned about counter-steering and it's effect on steering the bike accurately and quickly in all situations - a lot more accidents would be easily avoided.

[@jackmccourt6180]

My left ear loved this.

[@chrissmith7669]

The German ADAC motorcycle magazine built a similar fixed handlebar bike. They had pictures of their riders pretty much hanging off one side with little effect on direction or stability.

[@Rick_Cavallaro]

Even when riding a bike no-handed, we still initiate a turn with counter-steering.

[@antdx316]

I have to pull the otherside while pushing to flick quicker. Just pushing isn't enough force, well for my '05 R6 it is hard. At higher speeds it becomes very hard. At 100+ mph I hardly turn if I don't really twist the bars.

[@superbikeschool]

Agreed 100%.

[@MrOrangeVest]

Content is great. I wish I could convince more people to do actual research and learning, and y'all make it so easy too!

[@thedownwardmachine]

It sure could dill a textbook, and that textbook’s name is Motorcycle Dynamics by Vittore Cossalter. Good luck!

[@1966johnnywayne]

"Countersteering" ... What a load of BS. If it wasn't for the fact that my ride to work and back is on a perfectly straight road, I'd prove all of you wrong.

[@softailfun]

1966johnnywayne Yea, I’d keep to the straight roads if I were you 😂. Bends will probably be a bit of a challenge for you!

[@1966johnnywayne]

@@softailfun Sarcasm: the use of remarks that clearly mean the opposite of what they say, made in order to...criticize something in a humorous way:

[@softailfun]

1966johnnywayne Apologies, my misunderstanding.

[@1966johnnywayne]

@@softailfun Stay alert and ride safe. #NODEMS2020

[@microatmospherebreeze]

You don't need to prove anything, Bozeman's demo shows how gyroscopic precession insures that NO counter-steering can EVER happen on a two wheeled vehicle. I would simply fall down and MC's/bikes MUST always stay balanced. Seeing is believing, so see figure 8's without ever touching the handlebars! kzbin.info/www/bejne/b17FmImlbs2AnqM

[@davidk1579]

Great video, now you should film it from the riders perspective looking forward. Thanks.

[@superbikeschool]

Actually did that recently, using ropes tied to the handlebars. It's on our Instagram page posted May 4, 2020. Have a look.

[@paultheskierguy]

When he took his foot off the pegs at 2:00 to shift his weight around he didn't really move so his centre of gravity stayed in the same place. Of course then it has very little effect on the bike

[@superbikeschool]

And then what does that tell us about putting weight on the pegs?

[@microatmospherebreeze]

@@superbikeschool LEANING is the only way to turn a MC, standing or hopping on one peg does not produce system roll or sideways lean torgue.

[@superbikeschool]

@@microatmospherebreeze And what if the person was not leaning/moving their upper body? Could they still steer the bike with the bars? Actually not sure what you mean by "leaning", the bike or the rider's body?

[@microatmospherebreeze]

@@superbikeschool The MC lean is achieved typically by applying a rotational force with HB leverage (no rider steering). The MC instantly autosteers in the direction of the lean (No CS). It can be done by using body weight movement only without touching the HBs, but is much more difficult, (hands free riding). This causes a roll action around the center mass, as ocurrs in an aircraft, because the front tire patch offers little resistance to sideways travel, at speed. Usually, this complex action is learned by doing, not from a teacher.

[@superbikeschool]

@@microatmospherebreeze Did you come to these conclusions on your own, or did you research it, or a hybrid of both? The biggest element in the discussion is the fact that motorcycles are inverted pendulums and that's the central element that helps describe how they behave. I didn't see any mention of that. You mention the autosteer without mentioning why (trail) but I have a feeling you already understand that. If you want to understand this topic to a deeper level, try standing on someone's shoulders who is much taller on the topic: Cornell University Professor Andy Ruina. He and his colleagues have done mountains of research and it's fascinating.

[@fat_biker]

I think there is a sound issue with this video...

[@MrOrangeVest]

I am getting it in mono at the beginning. Stereo begins after the initial segment.

[@fat_biker]

***** Yeah, but that's a definite upgrade on the initial version where the sound was so quiet in the first section that it was inaudible. More work possibly required?

[@Theo_Soul]

Excellent video. Is it also possible to make a specific video for pivot steering, explain it in more details?

[@1wesleydb]

What about steering with no hands? Some riders can steer with no hands on the handlebars, How much guidance can be done without them? I understand the handlebars/countersteering are the best, precise way to lean and turn. Just curious

[@superbikeschool]

You can certainly steer a motorcycle without the bars, how easy or hard it is depends on the type of bike, its speed, the weight of the rider and bike, and interestingly the profile of the tires. A lot of variables in other words but for sure you can do it.

[@microatmospherebreeze]

Yes, a no hands rider shows turning is a process of LEANING only, once that occurs gyroscopic precession instantly turns the front wheel in the direction of the lean ONLY. The video of a rider doing no hands figure 8's is the best demo out there.

[@PiotrekXJ600]

​@@superbikeschool I steer my bicycle without handlebars very easily. I move my body to turn the handlebar itself of course with the countersteering philosophy. So if I want to turn right I balance my body in one second in counter direction and handlebar do countersteering itself. So philosophy is the same. This is very hard to do when wind is coming.

[@VFR12XRider]

where is the old original video of "no bs bike" ?

[@huntertony56]

This video was so great thank u

[@nickegan3988]

Great video. Shows that all the folk who talk about "weighting the pegs" to steer or control the bike are talking out of their behinds. Trouble is, even experienced racers do it. I heard Cameron Donald, the ex TT racer, talking about the importance of weighting the pegs the other day. Unbelievable.

[@KR4Z3D666]

At higher speeds, you need to have the bike as planted and stable as possible. Weighting the pegs assists with this. As does body weight shifting to the inside. The primary method for the steering is still with counter steering though. They both work hand in hand once you start going faster. You can scream around a race track while sitting straight up and down, you'll eventually come unstuck. I am by no means an amazing rider either, but can definitely feel the bike is more stable when adding body position (weighting).

[@nickegan3988]

@@KR4Z3D666 I agree with you re counter-steering and BP. That said, I see a distinction between (1) hanging off and (2) weighting the pegs, i.e. pushing down on the pegs with your feet. Hanging off certainly serves a purpose: to offset lean angle. As for weighting the pegs, here is what Keith Code (founder of the California Superbike School) says: "On peg weighting in general you have to realize that Newton's laws on the subject are still in operation in this universe. That means that the peg is pushing back as hard as you are pushing on it. A hard concept to grasp perhaps but that is what is happening. That is the equal and opposite reaction. As someone on this forum correctly put it: Pushing on the footpegs or pulling on the tank with your knee is as effective as trying to push your car down the road by pressing on the dashboard while sitting inside the car. I'm not sure of the whole answer on why riders get the feeling that peg weighting is doing something beside making their legs sore. It could easily be because they are steering unconsciously at the same time. Since that is the intention, it might very well be the reason they do." About the only circumstance I can think of where peg weighting is useful is going over crests or rough areas. By weighting the pegs to the point where there’s very little weight on the seat, your legs become a second set of suspension, meaning you won’t be bouncing around in the seat. Good for the bike and good for you. I guess that's what you mean when you talk about the bike being more stable when weighting the pegs.

[@vintagerealityvr]

@@nickegan3988 I think a lot of people associate weighting the pegs as the same thing as changing body position. If you hang off the bike, you are going to be putting more weight on one peg than the other. I know that's not what you mean by weighting the pegs, but I think that's why most "average joes" get it mixed up

[@nickegan3988]

@@vintagerealityvr Totally agree. It's a term that a lot of people get confused about.

[@nickegan3988]

@@raymadani270 yes indeed. I like to ask people who think peg-weighting works a simple question. Imagine you are approaching a bend. Would you hook your outside foot UNDER the peg and pull UP on it to help turn the bike in? Of course not! It achieves nothing. It is precisely the same logic that says that pushing down on the inside peg does nothing.

[@Elscroftz]

Shifting your weight to one side or another (head almost touching either left or right handle, causes the bike to steer towards that direction. Is it another way of countersteering? Why does this happen then? Thanks in advance. New sub 👌🏼

[@superbikeschool]

An imbalance is created and the bike will veer off in the direction of the imbalance. It's not an accurate or efficient way to change direction however. Also if you look at the bars when weight is shifted, they do move slightly. You're accomplishing what counter steering accomplishes via an indirect path.

[@xnodet]

Thé idea of « weighing the pegs » only makes sense to me when you get it by moving your body, and therefore the center of gravity, to the side. Lifting one foot while standing straight, as the rider does here, gets you nothing.

[@superbikeschool]

And that conversation would be centered around the topic of location of center of mass versus weight on pegs. Of course speed, mass of rider vs mass of bike, etc would be variables to consider that would complicate things. The topic that might be relevant most seem to overlook is "imbalance". Lower speeds with a lighter bike would get a more pronounced difference by shifting one's weight to one side or the other.

[@aceofbase1541]

@@superbikeschool I know the same thing from expierence, on a lightweight dirtbike, when you not going so fast, I can actually accurately steer the bike with body steering, weight shifting, when I wanna go right, I use steering from the hip, combined with pushing down on the right handle bar, this way I can actually steer the bike at a roundabout, where the speed is not so high, now a lot of people say I'm a dumb ass because pushing down on the handle bar does not do anything, and when I stand on the foot pegs and push strait down on the right handle bar then nothing happens, but when I sit on a light bike, steer from the hips and push the handle bar down at slower speeds it does seem to work, because then the weighshift is different, I think, now maybe, when I think I am pushing the handle bar down, I am also subconsciously pushing it forward a little im not sure.

[@benfennell6842]

@@aceofbase1541 You're almost certainly turning the bars a little when you push on them, but to be honest counter steering is by FAR the easiest method to steering on road. Who wants to muck about steering by shifting your bodyweight when I can make my bike lean over 45 degrees with nothing but my pinky finger on the inside bar. It's simply easier to use bar inputs to steer the bike because you weigh less that the bike, and don't have anywhere near it's inertia, so use it's own energy against it to lean it, not your own. Now off road? That's another story, and a heck of a lot more complicated, so I'm not even going to try and get into it.

[@aceofbase1541]

@@benfennell6842 Actually I use conscience counter steering all the time on s honda cbf 650 , like in the netherlands for you motorcycle driving license, they teach counter steering for an evasive manoevre and to turn the bike around at low speed, where you first steer to the right a little and then turn to the left and then also use your weight to make a turn, but they also have a mavoevre in the exam called fast slalom at 30 km/h in second gear, it looks like this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKXHgKCobq6UY5Y Now most instructors here in the country claim, that this trial should be done without countersteering, you should steer from the hips as they called it combined with pushing the handle bar down, because if you push the handle bar forward, the bike will start "hooking" as they call it, and the examinator dont like that, they like it more when it flows, now I always suspected, when you push the handle bar down, you also push it forward a little bit, but there has always been confusion in my mind about it, but after your comment, Im now pretty sure then when you consiensly push it down, you also push it forward a little bit, so your just using a bit less of counter steering but your still countersteering. Also in the netherlands, the examinator for your driving license does not like it when your ride through corners and just sit strait on the bike and use counter steering only, you wont fail the exam, but when you ride through corner like that sitting strait, they gonna look for other things in order to let you fail the exam, they like it, they think it looks much better, when you also lean your upperbody into the corner at faster speeds and use steering from the hip at slower speeds, They think it looks much cooler that way if bikes ride like that in traffic, one of them actually told me something like, yeah sitting strait and using counter steering only, ok well when your overweight and on a chopper that understandable but otherwise use your body too, that looks much cooler and thats what we wanna see lol

[@kitko33]

You can unbalance the bike with being crazy so much that the handlebars move - inducing countersteering - but that's being crazy to to trigger countersteering via handlebars anyway - in a manner you cannot control. In other words, you can cause the bike to change direction but you cannot steer it.

[@softailfun]

😂😂😂

[@aceofbase1541]

On a lightweight dirt bike, when you not going so fast, I can actually accurately steer the bike with body steering, weight shifting, when I wanna go right, I use steering from the hip, combined with pushing down on the right handle bar, this way I can actually steer the bike at a roundabout, where the speed is not so high, now a lot of people say I'm a dumb ass because pushing down on the handle bar does not do anything, and when I stand on the foot pegs and push strait down on the right handle bar then nothing happens, but when I sit on a light bike, steer from the hips and push the handle bar down at slower speeds it does seem to work, because then the weight shift is different, I think, now maybe, when I think I am pushing the handle bar down, I am also subconsciously pushing it forward a little im not sure.

[@superbikeschool]

It's interesting to see Doug Henry ride a dirt bike. He is paralyzed from the waist down. This can tell us something about weight on the pegs, which he can't apply. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eX_EhIZorrWffrM

[@opmike343]

I want to take this bike, and smash it over the head of every "experienced" rider that tried to argue with me about this stuff. What really gets under my skin are the people who say that you get a bike leaned over by pushing DOWN on the handlebars. UGH...

[@ridewyoming]

HAHAHA This video proves you exactly wrong.

[@afmoneninenine]

Yeah, that's what that stupid Kenny Roberts, Senior used to say. What a moron. What did he know?

[@enematwatson1357]

Ernest Montague He was definitely wrong about that. 😁

[@AnthonyBrusca]

@RydeWyoming No, it doesn't. You push the bars FORWARD to get the bike leaned. Or rather, tangent to the steering axis on the bars.

[@fat_biker]

Sound now sorted, I think... :-)

[@superbikeschool]

This was put together quickly and yes the sound is mono at the beginning. What about the content of the video itself? Did you get anything out of it? Knew it already? Surprised about some aspect of it?

[@fat_biker]

+superbikeschool Not surprised (Read the books, watched both the videos, did Levels 1-3 with the great and much missed Andy Ibbott at Pembrey, and rode the YZF600 incarnation of the No-BS bike). I like the video a lot as an excellent succinct video to show people who have been riding 30 years and 'know' they are turning by weighting the footpegs that they are in fact deluding themselves... for that reason having the sound at the start be decent matters...

[@mannyechaluce3814]

another way a bike is steered is by the wind :D try riding on a windy day on the highway :D

[@superbikeschool]

That can be horrible if it's a strong wind

[@MixedRealitySimRacing]

It's the no bull shit bike :D

[@mannyechaluce3814]

That only means, all this knee dragging in the streets is Bull dung :D its only for super high speed riding to keep your bike more upright

[@rambleonandon]

1. I learned how to drive on my playsation and 2. How to counter steer with NFS understand 2...just saying

[@ahmetemirakbulut]

:) 👍🏻

[@microatmospherebreeze]

This demonstration is as false as it gets, the rider hops up and down instead of LEANING, which is the ONLY way to initiate a turn on a two-wheeled vehicle. Once leaning begins, the gyroscopic precession instantly turns the wheel in the direction of the lean ONLY. Keith Code has been promoting the false idea that a motorcycle always counter-steers for years, which is actually impossible because the MC MUST always stay BALANCED and counter-steering simply causes an unstable imbalance.

[@superbikeschool]

It shows that weight on a peg by itself does not significantly change direction. You're bringing up a different point which is a shift in weight to create an imbalance by changing the combined center of mass, which is correct. However gyroscopic precession is an elegant explanation but it turns out, incorrect. It definitely is present but a minor, secondary factor. The more significant element is the presence of trail which pro-steers the front wheel into the turn, not precession. The other even more significant factor is a motorcycle is an inverted pendulum which more effectively explains counter steering. If you want to educate yourself further on this topic, look up the research done by Professor Andy Ruina at Cornell University. The idea that a motorcycle "must always stay balanced" is a statement that needs some qualifications, meaning other conditions to be met to be true. You can add those if you feel motivated to do so.

[@microatmospherebreeze]

@@superbikeschool Actually, the G.P. is the first of several factors in the turn process, which ensures no counter-steering can occur. I have studied ALL the content of this matter at great lengths, so I know what really happens. The pendulem action is NOT involved because there is no anchor point at the tire patch on the road. The MC does a roll action around the center mass, not pivoting at the contact patch. This moves the front tire contact patch to the opposite direction of the lean by sideways travel but doesn't move the steering head in that opposite direction. The timing of all the processes involved has to be addressed. It would take a book to explain all the factors invlolved, but the clear fact is counter-steering is NEVER invloved with inline, two-wheeled balanced vehicles as can be established by simple logic, foremost is gyroscopic precession.

[@superbikeschool]

@@microatmospherebreeze The consulting physicists (riders with physics PhD's) I've been in touch with say GP is not a primary factor but minor and secondary. Did you see the bicycle with counter rotating front wheels, canceling out the gyroscopic forces? You made no mention if you looked into Professor Andy Ruina's research. Maybe you have... Have a look at the Scientific American article titled: "The bicycle problem that nearly broke mathematics" the people mentioned in this article are the ones you may want to look into. Have you created any original material or videos you can reference for more info on your viewpoint?

[@microatmospherebreeze]

@@superbikeschool I have exhaustively studied all the content about bike/MC on YT and more. To the point, the two videos at my site clearly prove what I state. Another way to understand no counter-steering happens on a bike/MC is the actions of the riderless bike. At the moment of lean, it steers to the direction of lean, until vertical balance is returned. It obviously never counter-steers. A rider experiences that same process, but when a turn is desired, the rider introduces a lateral imbalance in the desired direction of the turn by lean or rotational torque of the handlebar, up of down, the wheel turns in the direction of lean and/or rotation. If the lean is precisely maintained, a circular path is established in a balanced state. A reversal of this action regains the straight line path. At no point does the wheel move in an opposite direction of lean. That is what a 4 year old child has to learn not to do in order to avoid falling down. The fact that all these actions can't be easily observed by the rider is why the CS error is accepted by so many. This also applies to the flat earth adherants.

[@superbikeschool]

@@microatmospherebreeze Did you read the Scientific American article? Did you look up Professor Andy Ruina?