No, DC20 Isn't "The Next D&D-Killer!"

[@TheDungeonCoach]

I absolutely LOVE your video! I agree with everything you said! I especially love the comparison to WoW! (I played that game like crazy for over 10 years) BUT yes, WotC is far more dangerous to themselves than I will ever be, nor do I have any intentions to take them (or any other TTRPG) down ❤

[@dm_curt]

Thank you! I hope I was fair.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Appropriate humility and realistic expectations are based.

[@SlowYourRole20]

God job Alan. Staying in the know, interacting with real people and their opinions. You're doing it right and it is refreshing for everyone to see.

[@fanboykc9140]

Dc20 is not meant to be a D&D killer. It's meant to fix problems many in the community have with 5E. Thanks for spreading the word! Slainte!

[@Ike_of_pyke]

Yep it's a 5.X

[@itap8880]

In a sense, it's aiming to be the next Pathfinder

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

DC20 is F---ing AWESOME and is gonna TOTALLY KILL D&D!!!!

[@itap8880]

@@collinthebenevolentbandit Ok, what's your deal? Because if you're just seeking attention then you found it.

[@Ike_of_pyke]

@@itap8880 think either they're parodying the edgy fan boy or they are genuinely one

[@RojaAlego]

Even the Dungeon Coach doesn't believe that DC 20 is going to be the next d&d killer But he believes it's making a very good game that a lot of people will enjoy and I believe that too

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

He is SO WRONG! DC20 is gonna TOTALLY KILL D&D!!!! Sit back and watch the carnage, non-believers!!!

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

I agree with you 💯 WotC will kill itself And the budget for your hobbies will shrink

[@g0mikese]

The question for me is "How much damage will WotC do to the D&D brand before selling it?" because when they no longer make money on it that's what will happen. It'll get sold off to the highest bidder and we'll have to hope the new owners are better with it.

[@Darkwintre]

@@g0mikesehow much damage Hasbro will do before being forced to sell the d&d franchise?

[@hawkname1234]

WotC has managed D&D to being probably 100x more popular AND profitable than when they acquired it.

[@ДмитрийБотух]

@@hawkname1234 No. WotC did nothing good to DnD. Everything good was IN SPITE of WotC trying hard to ruin the brand.

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

NO! NO! NO! DC20 is gonna kill D&D! Why don't you people believe in the D&D killing power of DC20???

[@BIGBENMACDOUCE]

True, dnd won’t be killed by something other than itself. But DC20, even though it won’t kill anything, is a very promising system so far and I look forward to transition from dnd to DC20. More fun imo.

[@itap8880]

DnD's position might also be taken away due to increase in popularity of multiple other systems. You know, action economy.

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

You are wrong. DEAD WRONG! D&D will only be killed by one game, and one game alone! That game is DC20!!! It's gonna totally kill D&D and no one will ever play D&D ever again!! Because DC20 will have KILLED IT!!!

[@BIGBENMACDOUCE]

🤣

[@viktorgorchev]

Thanks for the Blacklight shoutout!

[@CMacK1294]

I'd argue it absolutely is "The Next D&D-Killer" Because just like every "D&D Killer" before it, it never killed D&D. Lmao. So basically, by assigning it that title, it's in good company for what it will actually do -- not much. It will probably be a fun game that a lot of people will like and enjoy. I followed the channel and snag some concepts and ideas from time to time, because it's fun.

[@override367]

pathfinder arguably killed D&D 4e

[@NevisYsbryd]

​@@override367 It did not. Pf1e never came anywhere close to 4e sales. 4e had bigger costs and much higher corporate expectations and so was deemed relatively unsuccessful by Hasbro's standards, which are standards that dwarf anyone else in the industry.

[@GutisFive]

I love how DC20 is coming along and you are absolutely right. It won't kill D&D, it isn't even in the same scale. But i really love that there are options to try new things. Personally i will main DC20 not just because it's fun but because right now i really hate Wotc/Hasbro (Those are the true enemies of D&D lol) Great take

[@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th]

I tend to think anyone claiming something is a DnD killer is just a hype thing, and it's always best thrown in the bin. Those kinds of terms are used by marketing asshats to overhype shit and then you get Fallout 76 launch, or Cyberpunk launch because of ridiculous preorders rather than just letting the game be its own thing and letting it succeed or fail on its own merits. DC20 does have some great stuff going on, but how about we let it be it's own thing? It's probably going to do well, and that's great. But hype is dumb shit for dummies.

[@GutisFive]

@@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th exactly, it's just clickbait to capitalize on the current hate, but for us, we are getting a new system to play with. Another tool in the belt lol

[@GrippaNL]

I agree 👍

[@dorianleakey]

When you say products using marketing hype need to be thrown in the bin, if you were consistent with that attitude you would have almost nothing. Maybe you would play games that used marketing and you mean you just would ignore the hype, but it sounds like you mean you would reject them​@@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2th

[@sethb3090]

​@@ProjectChimeraEnhancedCo-cc2thit's worth noting that DC20's creator has never called it a D&D killer. People just like to get hyperbolic online.

[@calvanoni5443]

Wotc/Hasbeen will kill it. But im glad when Indy games take a bite out of its sales. It wont be enough to kill it.

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

You are INCORRECT! DC20 is gonna SOLO-KILL D&D the day it is fully released! Just you watch, heathens! DC20 is the D&D KILLER!!!!!

[@subterranean327]

My love of DC20 was born when I said, "Wouldn't 5e be better if...?" And then, DC20 flat out gave me the homebrew ideas i already had and made the 10x better!

[@evanbosco2380]

Everyone's welcome to their opinion. Toppling Hasbro is a task for the ages. We'll see if it happens. The chances are non-zero, but no one's silly enough to say it's likely. Thanks for the bump in the algorithm though 💚 Much love!

[@BW022]

Pathfinder nearly did it. When 4e came out, it failed so dramatically that PF probably outsold it in terms of numbers for a good three or four years. This said, I think DC20 is not like PF 1e in that it's was essentially 3.75e and gave a clear path for disgruntled 3.5e players to move to it. I don't thing a system as different as DC20 is going to be a default for most people even if 6e fails -- they'll stay with 5e or, if they want to try something else, DC20 isn't the defacto choice if you are willing to learn a new system.

[@PangoriaFallstar]

I literally had this exact conversation with my friend the other day. WoW isn't dead, but the only thing that "killed" it was itself.

[@hieronimbimbrowicz1039]

Thank you, that was a nice palate cleanser after a flood of DC20 content. You know that old joke about how a Game Master seems like a very original and imaginative creator until you see the books/movies/manga they ripped it from? I get an impression that's what DC20 is doing for terminal D&D players.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

some games have knocked D&D off the top of the heep. GURPS, VAMPIRE, RIFTS, PATHFINDER but you can not kill D&D,

[@dm_curt]

Good point. They took D&D off of the #1 spot for a little while, for what that is worth.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Pathfinder never took D&D off the top. Contrary to popular imagination, 4e outsold PF1e by a massive difference in scale; the issue was that it did not meet WotC's and Hasbro's expectations for it. While I do not know the numbers for the others, I am immensely skeptical of any of them ever dethroning D&D, either, other than _maybe_ Vampire.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@NevisYsbryd depends I guess on location. Pathfinder killed 4e here where i live as did gurps

[@NevisYsbryd]

@@TheOGGMsAdventures Well, not everywhere is going to perfectly reflect overall industry/audience trends. Call of Cthulhu is the primary ttrpg in Japan and several are reasonably large in Germany. It is very easy to mistake one's personal experience for the general experience or statistical truth (and vice-versa).

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@NevisYsbryd Yup CoC is huge in Japan, way bigger then D&D but how strong is the D&D brand in Japan. The numbers regarding the TTRPG really no longer matter to Hasbro and have not since 2015

[@UnbearablePeacock]

Well, in theory, in the early 2010's Pathfinder 1E became the top selling RPG for a few years until the release of 5e. In a way, there was a D&D killer. Nothing stops a new edition from coming out and take the spot again, but there is definitely the opportunity of taking the top spot again, especially if One D&D under delivers.

[@xFallenAngel]

Pathfinder 1E never outsold D&D 4E, that's actually an urban myth. Industry insiders who worked for both WotC and Paizo have since come out to state that 4E always sold more. Just didn't sell quite well enough to meet Hasbro level expectations (which is a whole different league from what other RPGs operate in).

[@UnbearablePeacock]

@@xFallenAngel The ICv2 Magazine used to publish a quarterly Top 5 sellers based on data gathered from Hobby stores and distributors. It is where this comes from. These numbers don't include all stores, and does not include WotC's and Paizo's subscription schemes that both existed at the time, so it does not paint the whole story. It also lacks any numbers, only giving us the rankings of each. But the fact that this simple survey showed Pathfinder 2e was ahead in book sales, at least from the point of view of hobby stores, shows how much of a decline D&D was at the time, and how much market share PF was able to get.

[@lightfighter4evr]

thank you for not being a DC20 fanboy bandwagon rider. the DC20 system isn't even complete and many things that other D&D tubers have talked about that are so great about DC20, are ripoffs of free content that's been floating around the net for years. and many of the "great" changes aren't great.

[@an_impatientGM]

As Hasbro continues to lose faith with the community and new systems continue to streamline games for a different meta than DnD was created in, DnD will die. I don't think there will ever be another DnD, because ttrpg's will have a healthier ecosystem. More competition with different styles of play will be good for the community and I do think DC20 will be a spearhead in that movement. DC20 is specifically designed to poach 5e's market share and that is incredibly valuable to both the system and the community.

[@steppahouse]

"Technically correct. The best kind of correct."

[@dm_curt]

I'm a level 7 Beaurocrat.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

thank you for agreeing with me. DC20 wont kill D&D, nothing can kill D&D. At best DC20 will be pathfinder level of sales and reach for a bit My biggest concern is that all the people who are saying good things about DC20 will turn on it in 2 weeks and start s&&&& on it

[@calvanoni5443]

It would be sad to see them s&&& on it so soon, I think it'll be longer until they do.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@calvanoni5443 I don't know they turned on Kelssy pretty quickly

[@calvanoni5443]

@@TheOGGMsAdventures Wow, I didn't see that.

[@TheOGGMsAdventures]

@@calvanoni5443 i did, she did,

[@Decado1628]

@@TheOGGMsAdventures I still see plenty of channels singing SD praises. It is getting continued play at conventions. I am looking forward to hopefully giving it a try soon.

[@damongraham1398]

I will stick with D&D despite all of their sh!t. The main reason is I LOVE Waterdeep. If I did not LOVE Waterdeep I would have left a long time ago.

[@ericcolbert8174]

I keep getting ads for DC20 so I'm glad you popped up on my feed! I personally won't be getting the game but I wish them the best, having more games are better for all of us.

[@AussieGriffin]

Two things: 1) Japan has higher sales of Call of Cthulu than D&D, 2) You're giving Hasbro WAY too much credit when it comes to IP rights. These morons didn't understand the Open Game Licence beyond "We not get paid for new stuff! ARGH!". They would be more apt to simply perch on the IP rights issuing legal challenges to anyone who wants to do something with it. A.G.

[@intuitivealchemist]

My biggest questions with DC:20 are, how heavily does giving players four "standard" type actions impact action economy and does it make turns take even longer so that all of the other players have longer wait? And how strongly does that imbalance play in favor of the players? Let's say you have four player characters VS four enemy skeletons in a combat encounter. For arguments sake, let's say it's slated as a normal / moderate level challenge encounter for the players' levels. Typically with DC20 do the players get 12 actions while the skeletons get 4? In which case the skeletons get steamrolled, making the encounter no challenge at all. Is this an issue? Genuinely asking as I have not tried DC:20 but these seem like the biggest obstacles at a glance.

[@patkelley8293]

If One DnD comes out with magical nerf swords. It's done.

[@dm_curt]

It wouldn't surprise me, as some sort of cross-company promotion.

[@Tiyev]

I thought people were referring to DC20 being "the real 6th edition".

[@dm_curt]

I haven't heard that one in particular, but some probably do.

[@ToddPutnam]

Spot on, including the analogy to WoW. I would say D&D will never be "killed", but it is and will continue to lose market share. Scandals don't help but what's really doing it is the company is so big, it has to over-monetize the game by selling a gluttony of poorly written and produced materials in order to feed itself. This is where one person / small company projects like DC20 and Shadowdark have the advantage. They don't have to sell mountains of useless books to turn a profit, so they are motivated by quality instead of quantity. The 5E books add little real value and destabilize any sense of "balance" in the game with a litany of Feats, spells, racial abilities, etc to the point that it becomes overly expensive for a DM to own it all and overly complicated to try and run it. I happily jumped ship to Shadowdark for those reasons. Others will jump to PF 2E or DC20. I don't think the D&D name will ever die, but its 50 year dominance in the industry is being whittled away, cut by cut, by each new system that is to varying degrees, less expensive to buy, less complicated to run and free of corporate scandal. Great review Curt!

[@dm_curt]

Thank you very much!

[@dm_curt]

Some of the small companies and one-man-band types are getting a foothold by making good products and being decent to their customers. Because they're still Hungry and not complacently resting on the momentum of name recognition of a 50yo IP.

[@g0mikese]

It's telling that with my current group, where I'm the DM and the only person who's ever played an RPG before, that they didn't say "We want to play Pathfinder" or "We want to play Shadow Dark" or "We want to play an RPG!" it was "We want to play D&D". To my little group of RPG newbies, playing D&D means playing any fantasy based RPG. To them we have "D&D Night" not "RPG Night".... and we're not playing D&D. We're playing Pathfinder 2e because the last time I ran a game was D&D 3.5 which makes Pathfinder the more natural extension of my prior knowledge than D&D 5e. Hell two of my players regularly go to PAX Unplugged, where new RPGs are all over the place, and were present and active parts of the conversation about what system to use before and to them we are playing "D&D". The brand to them is interchangeable with the hobby. I buy tons of system books, I've already got my pledge in and will enjoy reading the DC20 books (I like the Alpha stuff he released previously). But for on boarding new players who have never played the game before... what are they going to ask for when they walk into the gaming store? Or (more likely) which books will they find on Amazon? It'll still be D&D for a looooooong time. Despite Hasbro's screw ups, D&D still has more people working on it. D&D has more play testing going on. D&D will likely come out as a more polished "product". That wont make it better, it'll just remain the default option for people who are just starting out. I'm sure we'll see a bunch of groups, including live play streamers, changing systems due to Hasbro's mess ups with the licensing and wanting a part of other people's pies. That will impact D&D's sales some, but I don't think anything is killing D&D. Just providing different options.

[@h0rseinthesands878]

I've moved from 5e to castles and crusades, I'm hoping to get shadowdark and dc20 also into my players hands to try out

[@dm_curt]

@@h0rseinthesands878 Three good (and different from each other) alternatives. Good luck!

[@anotherelvis]

I like that DC20 isn't just an OSR rehash. It is full of new ideas.

[@pharbex]

You’ve won me over with “pedantically.” So, pedantically speaking, “the next D&D killer” means that DC20 is the newest game being considered as a D&D killer. This title had already been attributed to Daggerheart and MCDM. In other words, in popular imagination, this game has reached an expectation comparable to other giants considered potential successors to D&D. That being said, great video, great point of view and very entertaining conversation. First time here, and I’ll be watching much more. 😄👌

[@dm_curt]

Thank you. Very nuch appreciated!

[@teyvisoncorreia6856]

Whats MCDM?

[@PMandrekar]

I wouldn't worry about DC20 being a "D&D Killer". I don't care. If D&D doesn't adjust the play, and DC20 looks like a promising system to invest in, then people like me will switch to a game system that does what we need it to and represents a value to purchase. I have Kickstarted DC20 and am looking forward to using this system in play. Have fun everyone, with whatever game you enjoy!

[@dm_curt]

Well said!

[@jeancanestri5572]

Does it need to be a D&D killer?

[@dm_curt]

IMO, no. Making a profit and carving out it's own sustained niche would be a win in itself. In my business, the owner once said "We don't have to sell more than . If we did, they'd turn around and crush us. A reasonable 2nd or 3rd place is fine." Now, that corporation is not operating in our area, and we're doing fine.

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

It MUST BE the D&D Killer. And IT IS!!! DC20 is going to ABSOLUTELY KILL D&D FOREVER! No one ever liked or enjoyed D&D anyway, so no one will miss it. DC20 will reign supreme and everyone will love it always!! All hail DC20, THE D&D KILLER!!!

[@LiamsLyceum]

Never even heard of DC20 until this popped up in my feed. I don’t think I’ve seen any of your videos either 😅. But I think I’ll stick to Castles & Crusades for now

[@dm_curt]

C&C is a good system. Unfortunately, one of my players was unhappy with not getting new skills and powers leveling up.

[@TertiumNondatur-e2j]

honestly it's almost like DC20 is the second coming of jesus christ if you u were to judge it by the hype as if there weren't dozens (maybe hundreds) of alternatives to hasbro D&D already - and have been for years I took a look at it - there's nothing wrong with it, necessarily, but I don't really see the greatness others, appearantly, see in it It's just, as you said, hype, clever marketing, clever networking on social media. Nothing wrong with it, but that doesn't make an RPG "great" o revolutionary, DC20 is far from it. I seriously doubt it's ever going to be close to even pathfinder - probably, just another indie with its modicum of success and niche.

[@TwistedTentacleInn]

Yeah, I think you've nailed every point. It's got hype now because of a large marketing budget, but d&d content gets more views and content creators will go back to making d&d content. DC20 will do great on kickstarter, but the terrible name and the lack of support (no monster manual or adventures until 2025) will cause people to play it once and move on to something with more content. Even if converting from 5e is "easy",most people are lazy and want official content. Since it isn't there and won't be there for a year, hype will die down. Great marketing, terrible release schedule. He should have released the game with several adventures and a monster book at the same time.

[@Ike_of_pyke]

I consider this, ToV and even Shadows of the Demon lord the alternate to dnd , only time will tell if they're the dnd killers, I do believe much like PF 1e they'll establish a niche as WotC does whatever it's going to do after the 2024 "refresh" (I consider 5.2,, 5.24 if you want to be cheeky, with 5.1 being Tashas and Monsters of the Multiverse)

[@repillager]

Some of it seems like what Tracy and Curtis Hickman's X-D-M did a Long time ago. The action is completely different and more system/ simulation that the Hobby is rooted in. I like your video , well said.

[@dm_curt]

Thank you.

[@martinbowyer7906]

👏Well done you pulled me in with the tittle. Yeah DC20 wont kill D&D, like other have said here only Wotc can do that. However i have not seen anyone claim DC20 would, and ive watched every video i find on DC20, hence why im here. Most talk about how they love D&D, but this is the new system for them. Its the same for me. Ive told my group that i will no longer be running 5e, though ill still play in theirs. Even without the nonsense WOTC has been pulling I would still be switching. To me DC20 fixes all the issues i have with 5e. Honestly i haven't run or played in a raw 5e game sense 2014 when it first came out. Now every time im siting in a 5e game and we hit one of the problem spots, i cant help but think how it wouldnt be that way in DC20.

[@dm_curt]

Sounds like you're one of the many excited for this game and tired both of 5e and of WotC's shenanigans. Which in turn leads me to believe DC20 will carve out a solid niche, even if it doesn't take the #1 spot. Personally, I like Shadowdark's carving away of much of 5e's unnecessary stuff, but that's just me. I hope you enjoy your gaming, whichever system you land on, and I'm glad to see gamers branching out.

[@mandisaw]

The *real* "D&D Killer" already happened. Video games, esp RPGs, stole that top-of-mind position among role-playing geeks a long time ago. You could also argue that Magic (and other TCGs/CCGs) took over the FLGS & the school cafeteria nearly 30yrs ago as well. Every TTRPG that's not D&D is merely fighting for a spot on some DM's shelf at this point, internet chatter notwithstanding. It's not a bad thing, but it has to be acknowledged if we're being honest. As for books getting more expensive, that too has been a trend for a couple decades or more. The time when middle schoolers could pool their spare allowance for a set of Core rulebooks (or a single-rulebook & a couple modules) was already over before Y2K. If anything digital subs could amortize that cost over time, so we don't exclude folks who can't afford that large upfront investment. That's kind of how it worked with 4e, albeit incompletely (no legal full-book PDFs back then).

[@Malvisk]

4th edition was a dnd killer ;)

[@lady_deaths_head]

I think DC20 straight up already fixes most problems DnD has

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

Which is why DC20 will KILL D&D!!! Once and for all, D&D will be dead and no one will ever play it again!! People will only play DC20!!!!

[@Wertbag99]

There is also a degree of apathy, in that once you have the 5e core books (or hell just the PHB) you can play for years with no requirement of further investments. The two most recommended expansions (Tasha's (2020) and Xanathars (2017)) are many years old and completely optional. My group has the core books and have no need or want to purchase anything else, whether that be WOTC products or a competing system. I can imagine DC20 pulling in a hundred thousand keen players, making a solid community, while not impacting on 5e's tens of millions of players. At the same time WOTC have no way to monetize the existing player base.

[@NevisYsbryd]

I have been saying most of this. Ttrpgs have, as almost certainly an overestimate, 40 million players globally, of which optimistically half are active. Spread across five continents, multiple languages, systems, platforms, etc. For an activity that generally operates on three or more participants playing concurrently using the same system, at the same location or platform, with mutually compatible experiences and/or modes of engagement sought, that is an extremely _small_ playerbase. Ttrpgs are difficult for get into at all other than a privileged few. D&D is pretty much the only one that the general population has so much as heard of, and for all of its design faults, its mechanical versatility and diversity makes it better able to bring together people of relatively divergent desires at one game and its reputation and vastly larger playerbase makes it drastically easier to get into. DC20 is gaining hype among the fraction of an already-niche activity that happens to be actively involved in online meta-discussions, which is always a relatively tiny portion of the audience. An _ideal_ flow of events would still probably require at least ten to fifteen years for DC20 to tap into mainstream awareness at all, and realistically, probably several times that, if ever. D&D is the only one that has _any_ ability to tap the mainstream market, and they still barely, and after forty years of word of mouth and, ehat, 30 of corporate support? The only one who can kill D&D anytime soon is D&D itself. Granted, in some regards, they are doing exactly that. As an aside, I have not seen that much innovative or particularly impressive about DC20 to begin with. The design, while more streamlined than D&D, is busier (larger strain on players tends to mean fewer of them), the race mechanics are a characterless slop, it adds as much complexity as it takes away, and a lot of the mechanical changes touted as innovative are really but cleaner versions of what already existed in 5e and not nearly so diverse an experience as touted. It comes off as but a more fluid Pathfinder 2e.

[@dm_curt]

3rd-party games are a niche within a niche, but appear to be taking bigger bites of the apple than they used to. The race mechanics are a drawback if completely different beings that would view the same world from a vastly different POV are just "humans in funny suits", with mechanically beneficial feats tacked on to make a "build" work.

[@NevisYsbryd]

@@dm_curt Different _species_ in this case; the use of race in D&D has always been a misnomer. While it may be acceptable to reduce it down to minor variations from an extremely etic perspective, it comes at the cost of losing identity and any emic differences and thus characterization for in-world groups. While that is fine if that is the sort of game you want to play, I think it runs contrary to the design goals served by using a relatively rigid class-based system rather than something like a skill-based system. It makes for very weak worldbuilding, especially when the premise of strongly defined and highly differentiated roles with limited crossover is built into the game's arguably primary subsystem and the ability to play a particular character fantasy is an explicit goal of the class system as compared to its predecessor. And yes, indies are definitely cresting a wave, although I am concerned that such is a result of people leaving D&D and by extension, reducing accessibility for ttrpgs as a whole. The entire hobby really needs more people to sustain multiple systems at decent population sizes.

[@SlowYourRole20]

You nailed this video bro. Very fair and realistic. Opinions based on facts and reliable discernment. Also good balance of clickbait thumbnail with truth haha. I clicked this video so fast 😂

[@dm_curt]

@@SlowYourRole20 Thank you!

[@dm_curt]

@@SlowYourRole20 Thank you!

[@itap8880]

I feel like this question is less about dnd or wow falling into complete obscurity and more about them getting a competition that takes away their monopolistic position.

[@Shamustodd1]

DC20 sounds pretty good, but it's out of my price range. Personally WhiteBox fmag is my fave. Easy to teach and easy to play for under 5 bucks with free prime shipping. Basic Fantasy is also a good choice for about 8 and half bucks with free prime shipping. I don't have a problem with people trying to make money but when really good games are available for 5 or 10 bucks I see no reason to eat Raman just to buy a book.

[@matthewconlon2388]

I’m calling it 4.pathfinder. It’s got some good stuff but the creator did sort of reinvent some of 4e.

[@NevisYsbryd]

I would argue that is Pathfinder 2e is 4.Pathfinder, although I also called DC20 basically a looser PF2e in my own comment.

[@justinbader3885]

I don't think anyone saying that it's a Dnd Killer (at least the videos I have seen) are arguing that DC20 will take the number one spot. It's mostly just click bait titles, but the game will likely do well amongst DnD players.

[@CrusaderCool]

Saying something is the next D&D-killer IS super cringy. Agreed 100%.

[@psusac]

Sounds right to me.

[@i_have_insomnia8586]

Absolutely. I like the game a lot but way too many people throw out “D&D killer” as a way of grabbing attention and it puts unrealistic expectations on the game. It can be a good game without destroying a competitor that has been going strong since the 80s.

Good points

[@evilsohn]

So you‘re saying that during the 4th Edition Era, Pathfinder wasn‘t THE DnD Killer?

[@mistergoats4380]

I give it a month and then we'll never hear about it again

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

I think the answer is "yes*", but the asterisk is just as important as the answer. As you said, there are many factors that will result in the de-throning of DnD. One of those is the rise in popularity of TTRPGS that *aren't* DnD. Games like D20 are grabbing up new TTRPG fans before they ever fall victim to modern WotC, and shifting tables who have played DnD for decades. Each DC20-quality TTRPG that forms a strong community detracts from the reign of DnD. Like every cut made in a death from a thousand cuts, every loss in brand loyalty is a cut that will end in DnD's death. That is why, IMO, there is a "next" DnD killer. Some of the games killing it already exist and have taken many DnD tables with them.

[@jjparker96]

Finally! Someone has said it! Hasbro has lost the spirit of a FANTASY game that was huge at one time. The cash grab mentality will be the "death" of D&D.

[@jordanwhite8718]

I’m gonna take your note even further. I don’t think there’s ever gonna be a D&D killer. The closest anyone ever got was pathfinder. And even now it’s infinitesimally small compared to Dnd. I don’t hear of any voice actors running a pathfinder game on twitch, even though Matt Mercer did start with pathfinder. Nobody’s ever made a Pathfinder movie let alone two of them. And I haven’t seen a pathfinder video game yet that has success anywhere close to BG3. The people who want Dnd dead are just terminally online losers who have never talked to people who actually played DND. I bet you I could talk to all the players in the two groups I run and asked them if they ever heard of DC 20 and I guarantee you all of them will say no.

[@dm_curt]

As an IP, it has tremendous weight and momentum. If someone in the US is outside the hobby and can name 1 ttrpg, that's the one. (I hear that Warhammer (?) is more popular in the UK and CoC in Japan)

[@NevisYsbryd]

​@@dm_curt CoC is indeed primary in Japan, and several other systems-particularly The Dark Eye-are fairly successful in Germany, specifically. That is pretty much it, though; while D&D is _less_ dominant in Europe than in the Americas, it is still #1 pretty much everywhere else. By available data, it alone accounts for slightly over half of all ttrpg activity.

[@MalakyoftheOSR]

So far, the only game that has dethroned D&D from the top spot was Vampire: the Masquerade vack during 2E. My big concern is all these games that everyone is bringing out. I think the market is going to get flooded, kind of how the OSR has gotten recently. I disagree with Hasbro/WotC axing print bokks. It will be the distributors that will be causing the books to not be in the game stores. My FLGS goes through Alliance and he has issues getting products in for their release date, even MtG cards. With this last pretelease he called and spoke to his reps boss and that guy had no idea what he was talking about. Thabk you for shouting out Viktor's Blacklight. The man has great products under his imprint The Scrrying Dutchman. I've got Savage Worlds and I enjoy that game so much and it is way more versatile than D&D for me.

[@dm_curt]

I think I reviewed Blacklight. Viktor is a good dude and he writes good material.

[@MalakyoftheOSR]

@@dm_curt Yes, Viktor is a good dude. I am patiently waiting for him to finish his new version of Modern Necessities.

[@NevisYsbryd]

The market is already flooded, really. The ttrpg playerbase is actually really tiny considering how spread it is and how many people it usually takes to play, and most of the general population has never so much as heard of them. Having a really big population around one system makes it easier to get into that system by reducing the difficulty of finding players, and subsequently other systems. While this boon to smaller systems in the wake of D&D's fumbles boosts their vitality in the short term, it is likely going to come at the cost of fewer people entering ttrpgs at all for, I hypothesize, the next ten to fifteen years. The market is seriously oversaturated. People praising indies often ignore that the overwhelming majority of systems and content makes zero or near zero profit (and thus actually operate at a loss). Same for content creators. With the economy bad and getting worse, that total pie is probably going to shrink, too. 2018-2024 gave people some massively unrealistic expectations around the sustainable economics and logistics of ttrpgs.

[@Doodle1776]

There can never be such a thing unless WOTC goes out of business. The idea that DC20, which is just another version of 5e but even more superhero, super powers is a farce. I personally have zero interest in DC20 because I already dislike 5e's built-in superhero setup. DC20 seems to dial the superhero fantasy up to 11. DnD will exist and be the leader in the hobby as long as WOTC exists because WOTC pumps tons of money into advertising. Critical Roles Daggerheart sure as hell won't be either and that will drop off the face of the earth like Candella did.

[@hawkname1234]

Well, Candela Oscura apparently had some pretty significant design problems. Designing game systems is not easy!

[@metaempiricist]

DnD is the next DnD killer.

[@GuitarGuyNick]

the issue i have with dc20 is that it rips off pathfinder 2e quite considerably and does a poor job at it, if i was to switch from pf2e id need more of a mechanical change to be able to justify learning a new system.

[@kf7137]

Don't understand the pedantic setup. Why not just delete "next" from the title? Is it just to say that it is hard to topple a giant? But overall a good discussion.

[@dm_curt]

Thank you.

[@foreshame7370]

Was there a "first" D&D Killer? Asking for a friend...

[@FlintFireforge]

Agreed. You nailed it. WoTC is the killer. All this hyperbole is for clicks and giggles.

[@TheBlink182ify]

No, that's Stormlight rpg... A bigger shark can eat another

[@dm_curt]

@TheBlink182ify "Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere RPG beginning with The Stormlight Archive....." 10.8M on its Kickstarter, with 3 days to go? Huh. Be interesting if it has tabletop play in proportion to its KS backing, and isn't a shelf-sitter.

[@thehermitthetower1126]

It should be. DC 20 is a better version, based on what I've seen. It basically uses most of the best homebrews on the internet to streamline the game and make it more action oriented

[@Grimmlocked]

DC20 will be forgotten in a few weeks after teh marketing money stops flowing and teh kickstarter waits to fulfill

[@GlenFinney]

It won’t be as visible on social media but Coach and his team have been very good on delivering alpha updates over the past year and I believe we’ll see the same for beta updates meaning all those who have backed the kickstarter will be getting regular updates that will keep a lot of interest in the backers going I think.

[@dylanhyatt5705]

Pathfinder was a D&D Killer with respect to D&D4e - which is why WotC dumped it i favour of 5e.

[@oboropro]

Hasbro is the D&D Killer

[@teedee639]

What's going to "kill" the IP momentum of D&d ? WotC (eternal growth) greed, arrogance and distance from the ground level vein of the hobby. They've already done enormous reputation damage to the brand through their antics and controversies. Akin to EA (though not on the same scale), its evermore popular to despise WotC & Hasbro. A player base shave, as they try and turn 5e into another edition, which always results in a certain % of player loss through edition preference. A piranha effect, where very similar games (Shadowdark, DC20, etc) trying to capture that same vibe & audience release with highpoint gimmicks (ex: 4pt economy) that take player chunks away from D&d. A Hasbro that tends to hold onto and vault (for DECADES) IPs that have undergone popularity crash, rather than selling those IPs and allowing them the opportunity for renewal through new party ownership. A coming roleplaying/D&d (probably a "nerd" things in general) popularity crash. Bonus : Continued civilizational destabilization throughout "the west", which will force people to spend less time and money on very optional activities & spending. Hard times tend to require you spend more time paying attention and exerting effort for the basics (ex: the number of Americans forced into "car living" is HUGE), and less time essentially goofing off. I think this will just be (in part) a reality check for a regional civilization that through its former success, decided to spend that societal momentum currency (via misallocated funds, energy and time) on becoming an enormously entertainment top-heavy society.

[@dm_curt]

@teedee639 You're on a roll, and unfortunately, 100% right. Hard times are going to focus our spending money on beans, bullets and bamd-aids, over books. The Next election will not prevent this, only determine how hard and fast the fall will be.

[@torva360]

The bandwagon was so strong that I almost bought it. But that $65 price tag was too much

[@repillager]

Same, after GURPS , I.C.E, Storyteller, gaming just roll against a target number adjust for humor.

[@theyawningowlbear6758]

As far as I'm concerned, Dnd went belly up the day Wizards gained hold of the IP, and when gary passed right before 4e. Since 4e, it's been downhill from there. Castles and Crusades or hyperboria or basic fantasy is my go to for dnd. Not this woke and broke crap grand wizards puts out.

[@lanthorn9910]

Of course, no... to a rhetorical question put on videos as clickbait. What was the title of this video, again? I suspect never once has that question been legitimately asked. It's a fabricated KZbinr marketing ploy (and boy, are we viewers tiring of it). I agree DC20 will succeed = will be enjoyable to play. I also agree that buying downloadable PDFs or printed books is smart. VTTs, like DnD Beyond, are not guaranteed to live forever. So, let's buy smart. Let's demand a free PDF with a print purchase! The BIG surprise for the "gimme for free" crowd will be when PDFs triple in price after the subsidizing print products go away. The thing is, it is the creative authoring, the IP, that is the product. The method of that product's delivery (Print, PDF, Subscription, VTT) is just that, delivery. Right now, publishers are fooling you by positioning that "print is expensive" and "we sell PDFs cheaper cause no paper cost. It's true there is a print cost for print, but the creative is the big cost and growing (looking at you Paizo union.) It would cost publishers $0 extra to include the PDF file with purchase of the book printed from that file. I was is publishing for 30 years. I know what I am talking about. Thieves all of them for charging for print and PDF to the same buyer! Every print buyer has inherently paid for the PDF in the manufacturing process of the book. When no more print books are sold, PDF price will bear 100% of creative cost and that PDF will cost some multiple of what it does now. Sadly, as DM Curt said, the worst "value" is the subscription delivery system. You actually own nothing that isn't on your hard drive. You're renting for as long as the land lord says you can. Anyway, have fun gaming. There is room at the table for all ttrpg publishers, big and little alike.

[@karsonkammerzell6955]

I really hate that narrative. I just want to play cool TTRPGs. I don't care about who thinks what's better, lol. I just want to play fun things.

[@jjalexscifi]

Hasbro is the D&D killer...

[@dm_curt]

@@jjalexscifi Bingo.

[@jgn1977]

You could argue Pathfinder killed dnd in the 4e era. Going to Gencon in those days and Pathfinder had 10 times more players and excitement than dnd.

[@collinthebenevolentbandit]

Blades in the Dark already killed D&D. Then Shadowdark killed Blades in the Dark. DC20 is gonna kill Shadowdark. Then Tales of the Valiant is gonna kill DC20. Then Daggerheart is gonna kill Tales of the Valiant. Then the MCDM RPG is gonna kill Daggerheart. Then the MCDM RPG will kill itself. And all the dragon games will be dead. Happy now, game killers?

[@dm_curt]

What a bloodbath!

[@steelmongoose4956]

World of Warcraft is the only game that ever really killed D&D, and that was only for one edition. 😄

[@steelmongoose4956]

DC20 looks like the approach I’d take in designing a high-ish fantasy, rules-heavy D20 game. I’m looking forward to watching the system develop and to playing it. But, no, it’s not going to spell doom for D&D. It’s my version of D&D going forward, though, and it would be even if I were willing to give any more money to WotC/Hasbro. I’m finding so much inspiration in indie games these days, that it’s hard to imagine returning to the corporate juggernaut.

[@quillogist2875]

Dnd is fune for the foreseeable futue. Plywr base us higher than any prevoius version. DnD Beyind is doing fine. Physical books are still going to be available if you don't want to use DDB. All book prices are going up. That said, the announced prices for the new three core books are $50 which puts them $10 below the recent PF2 remasterdd books that had a lot less changes, and you need to buy four books to get the needed content. All your previous adventures will still be compatible with the new books. There will be subclasses not updated, yet, but there are a lot of imprkveents throughout and that includes new stuff. Buy it if you want to, dont if you don't i think a lot will,a d it will give 5e a shot in the arm in sales and popularity.

[@SerifSansSerif]

Ok. None of these games are going to be the next D&D killer, and you're right, the headlines are click bait hype, mostly by KZbinrs looking for views for ad revenues. Hasbro screwed up a lot, especially with the OGL bit, and the other two big names rushed in to take advantage of that. CR decided that with their gobs of fans and the fact that people seem to throw money at them regardless of what they do, decided to make some games to compete. Then everyone else with a KZbin channel joined in. All these alternative games though suck. They all have half bake mechanics, trying to NOT be D&D while being close enough to get their own piece of the pie. They're all going to also face the music that nobody has that kind of money and that their games are more or less novelties in the ecosystem, and, quite frankly, flooding the market with a million variations is just diluting any chances they have at getting a decent market share. Pathfinder was a success only because of the amount of D&D content they already produced and just how wildly different 4e was, AND BECAUSE THEY WERE THE ONLY CHALLENGER. It can't be expressed enough how much that last bit matters. David and Goliath stories don't happen in market places. Especially with 30 different people trying to be David.

[@hawkname1234]

Hasbro did NOT screw up "with the OGL bit". That was a deliberate misreading of a business contract that they used to stoke and farm outrage on KZbin for money. And you ALL fell for it, like a bunch of QAnoners on message boards.

[@MyKarva]

I thought pathfinder killed d & d? Everyone ditched 4e to play that.

[@RPGrandPaTabletop]

No game will be a D&D killer because WotC has already done that job.

[@hawkname1234]

It's a lie that WotC is switching to a "Rent-your-own-books" model. They've specifically said they are going to continue to print and sell books just like always. This is the first time I've seen your channel and not only did you repeat the debunked misinformation about the OGL and Pinkertons BS, but you just straight up lied about WotC forcing people to rent their own books. I conclude that you are not an honest source of information.

[@dm_curt]

The OGL and the Pinkertons event never happened? Link me that debunking, if you please. Thanks in advance.

[@jnlsnfamily8747]

DC 20 is a tepid entry, suitable for someone recovering from surgery perhaps.

[@dm_curt]

That's the 1st time I've heard that particular take. What don't you like about it and what's your game of choice?

[@jnlsnfamily8747]

@@dm_curt becmi, laner, gamma world, rifts, tmnt, mordheim, motw, 2nd ed ad&d, all WoD 1st ed games, icrpg, deathbringer, ezd6, port royale, those are the ones that i can think of, we kitbash and homebrew quite a bit

[@hawkname1234]

You're just being another anonymous rude person in the internet.

[@jnlsnfamily8747]

@@hawkname1234 ok anonymous rude person

[@TolulenePictures]

facebook was the myspace killer... your first argument is weird.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Myspace was a relatively niche early social media platform that did not adapt and could not compete with the level of backing Facebook quickly acquired. It never had widespread mainstream adoption to lose. Google+ and similar attempts to displace Facebook all failed.

[@Jader7777]

It looks like a fiddly overtuned mess. The developer has no idea how other editions or even other TTRPG games work. But I can't wait for WotC to decay into nothing.