No-etch circuit boards with your laser printer

[@klong4128]

Very impressive and many process to do PCB without etching .One serious dangerous effect : Silver Poisoning ! The End product should coverup with transparent Perspeks or glass for artistic noncontact display .Good job done

[@warrencurry874]

Well scripted, professional presentation, no heat, and no caustic liquids puts your technique at the top of the priority list. Especially appreciate your showing the resistance readings for the first layers of the traces. A typical resistance reading across such a short should be well under 100 milli-Ohms. Maybe 3 layers would achieve that. Thanks for the very cool technique

[@Sembazuru]

Have you tried covering not only the solder pads, but all the traces with the solder paste to get stronger/lower resistance traces? (Similar idea to allowing solder wave to add solder to exposed power traces for higher current capacity.) Oops... just noticed how old this video is... Not really expecting an answer. ;-)

[@iankleinschmidt712]

that must be the most expensive blinking LED in the universe

[@codebeat4192]

I really like this, hate the chemicals mess of traditional board developing, this is very clean and very nice. Thanks for sharing.

[@Rx7man]

it would be interesting to try and make multilayer board this way!, punch vias in the paper, dab some solder, and keep stacking it!

[@rosebarnes9625]

As long as it's low voltage... paper is not a very good insulator.... maybe use liquid electrical tape as the glue between layers...

[@Rx7man]

@@rosebarnes9625 true, problem with liquid electrical tape is it's not heat resistant and is going to screw with soldering... If you could hole-punch kapton tape maybe?

[@rosebarnes9625]

@@Rx7man well, don't solder the components down...... staple them! 🤣🤣🤣 Yeah, I don't know...

[@ARVash]

You could use the toner transfer method to transfer the ink traces to a solid surface, and then use your steps to apply the silver glue. This will also remove your "browning" health hazard :P. Very nice work. This method should be used and explored more!

[@ARVash]

Perhaps check out NileRed's The Silver mirror and Tollen's test. There might be something to using traces, with silver deposition for more permanent results.

[@chaos.corner]

I wonder if you could electrolyze the traces thicker. Of course, then you possibly just may as well go the other way.

[@TheHuesSciTech]

If you're going to the effort of preparing Tollen's reagent, then you might as well just etch copper -- the standard approach.

[@EllAntares]

what it is based on, ferrum sulfide?

[@thirakanjanasintou4679]

drill usage

[@dreamlessfull]

Great technique! I'm gonna try it for custom membrane keypads. Thanks for sharing. Link to the solder paste ?

[@DiyEcoProjects]

Now thats a thing of beauty ... well done! Ill give that a go at some point, looks interesting

[@andersonantunes4257]

This is a awesome idea, thank you so much for sharing your discovery with the community! Have a great weekend :D

[@2000freefuel]

I wonder if the silver trace could be coated in solder for durability, then solder masked to assist in soldering the parts down.

[@realflow100]

Can you use a very miniature tiny slip of paper between layers to make bridges???

[@90FF1]

One is never too cool to learn something new. One idea may lead to another and another, etc. Thanks for posting.

[@gavincurtis]

This is awesome. I will definitely try this next time I have a membrane switch panel to repair. Always wondered why there cannot be a conductive inkjet printer.... this will work until then.

[@AlejandroRodolfoMendez]

I wonder if there are replacements for the silver.

[@Nathan1975Liggy]

how mutch heat can the finished board take though I am asuming this method could not run 5 x 3W LED's

[@nathandean1687]

will copper paste work as well?

[@aperson9375]

wow, really a great method for making circuit that eliminates the use of those highly acidic chemicals.

[@leeeeeee2796]

What sorcery is this?!

[@darkracer1252]

@Blondie SL so someone should make a laser driver with this. lm317 based where the resistance plays a big role in wether your laser will emit light. or smoke

[@rogerraven6976]

Anti lycan theft

[@rosebarnes9625]

Just the usual sorcery, magic smoke enabled FM!!! 🤣🤣🤣

[@terrydaniels9573]

Can you heat transfer the toner the old fashioned way on to a PCB blank, then follow the exact same process, but on the blank?

[@revtmyers1]

Surprised I just came across this. So far I really like this method quite a bit. Thanks for sharing.

[@ET_AYY_LMAO]

Can this be done with transparent sheets for overhead projectors instead of paper?

[@alexbusoni]

This idea is worthy of a Nobel Prize)

[@dd_ranchtexas4501]

At 4.46, the pad on the right looks like it has a crack in the silver trace. Or is that just a "dribble" of the solder paste? Can't tell for sure. Didn't seem to flow with the hot air on it the way the dab of paste did..??.......

[@electricsheep2305]

Great video, I was intrigued by the process and had to try this out but unfortunately I had no success. I had to work with what I had and here are some notes if you ant to try this: 1) I used a version of the AA-DUCT 906 paste that comes in a pouch, this package has you mix a reagent with the paste to make it malleable. I followed the instructions but the paste seamed a little too thick and couldn't get it to bond with the paper ink. 2) The paper I used was CANNON "photo paper glossy" and if you heat it too much it does not get brown, instead it pops the top glossy part and the ink doesn't seem to be affected. This behavior is different from the one in the video. 3) I used a EPSON ET-2650 so maybe it has to do with the issue. Again great video and good luck to whomever tries this method

[@ruckage1]

It didn't work because you used an ET-2650 which is an Inkjet Printer - this requires a Laser Printer as the silver adhesive sticks to the toner.

[@CrusadeVoyager]

This is a different way of PCB making without etching, Nice

[@vieuetcon]

Awesome. You inspired me something a bit different. What if you lay a gold fold on tracks a warm it.. Maybe it will glue on ink too. I ve seen gold foils on Ebay for 15$. Could be worth it.

[@XanCraft21]

I wonder if I can just use a hair dryer for the heated things and Microsoft paint for the circuit print wires. Everything else will be the same.

[@gandsnut]

Question: Have you done any tests regarding current-carrying capability? Or, what would you say is a general current max for traces in prints as are seen here? Thx.

[@Draalo]

@Festivejelly: the question was: "at which current do traces become a fuse" @Are Jayem: assuming a current of 1A at 3 ohm => 3W, spreaded over 30mm of trace - guess that would be fine. You can also make wider traces for lower resistance. But i didnt tried that method myself - looking forward to Richs answer too ;)

[@artbyrobot1]

@@Draalo you can get silver glues that cure to well under 0.0005 ohms of resistance per centimeter. These will simply have more silver powder concentration closer to 70%. There is no current limits making thicker traces or wider traces can solve any current limitation issues same thing goes with copper traces of course . You can make your silver glue more conducted by adding in pure silver powder which you can buy on eBay

[@therealjordanvo]

wow what a neat project! Thanks for posting this, I'd love to try this sometime, but I think my ventilation is not good enough to do this inside...

[@jamesbryan7501]

i do armor costumes and prop replicas and this technique will be very useful for making a full armor suit power harness if the conductivity can be made high enough and a non conductive layer placed over the printed traces. all i would have to to is add a short wire connector between the parts of the armor with a central power supply and have this all along the inside of the armor

[@headbanger1428]

Great idea! I can really see this tech improving to a more pro prototyping, and fast too. Thanks!

[@oldbaldfatman2766]

Thanks for the video.....VERY interesting. Now I'm wondering why can't I do the same thing for 1/35th scale gates, fences, etc.?

[@peterwoo2489]

what kind of resistance do you get if you apply 3 or 4 layers? This is an absolute game changer.

[@91rickstar]

Can I do the same thing but with ink jet not laser printer

[@feynthefallen]

Amazing! Gonna try that right away! (My pcb exposer got swamped in a flooding earlier this year...) Also, you could probably galvanize on some copper at this point. I'll try some stuff and report back.

[@cosmogrid]

Brilliant. what type of paper is that. I think we can do it with copper to improve conductivity.

[@KC9UDX]

Sam Fosi Are you sure? Silver naturally has better conductivity than copper.

[@cosmogrid]

+KC9UDX you're right. I thought that was not pure silver. how can I get that silver and that paper?

[@cosmogrid]

KC9UDX hahaha! 1:silver,2:copper, 3:gold 4:aluminium. copper wins becauseof its cost and electrical properties. These are the 4 widely used for now till we improve technology a bit

[@KC9UDX]

Copper is cheaper! :) I've no idea where to get these things, I've only etched boards myself

[@artbyrobot1]

@@KC9UDX you buy the silver by searching "silver paste" on eBay and buy it from a Chinese seller for around three dollars. Also search fine silver powder which you can add to the cheap Chinese glue to make it more conductive. Aim for a 70% concentration of silver powder to glue ratio for maximum conductivity.

[@charleshines6155]

That seems like it would leave you with a similar thing to what you might find in a computer keyboard. Some of them have a couple layers of plastic with traces made of something that might be similar. Also some computer mice may have plastic like that found in a keyboard. I think they mostly use it there because it is flexible and cheaper to use but not so cheap that it doesn't last long which is a downside of a lot of low cost stuff.

[@haydenc2742]

Question...could you use an iron, and imprint the printing on a copperless PCB board, then apply the silver glue? This way the circuit is already applied to a solid substrate?

[@Nothinglabs]

I've tried this - and while you get silver traces - the glue doesn't seem to conduct. it seems like the silver paste's curing to a conductive level is somehow assisted by the photo paper. I'm betting the resin actually gets pulled through the paper into the toner. tried this with a number of other non-photo-paper materials (like acetate sheet) with same results.

[@aimless3827]

I made one, But silver paste doesn't come out when i try to clean it. it was failed and have to look for new ways.

[@daveyhi3154]

Very novel process! I'm curious though, why didn't you tin the silver traces with the solder?

[@Nothinglabs]

you can tin the traces with solder - but it's a bit tricky. too much silver paste or contact with a soldering iron will tear the traces from the paper.

[@geor664]

Well then what about solder paste and a reflow oven ?

[@dipakbhangale7009]

What any the PCB or circuit with component mounting like caps, desi, is etc

[@Althu-blog]

What is the silver pest. Please send name. Naice video am happy

[@philiplishman532]

Great info! Can you print the circuit on Kapton tape (heat resistant) for greater durability, to make flat-flex circuits?

[@Nothinglabs]

while it's possible to get traces that look good on kapton (and other non-porous materials) - they don't seem to cure to the point of conducting. it seems the inkjet paper assists in curing (I'm guessing the resin in the silver paste somehow gets sucked into the paper through the toner).

[@semphony100]

Subed ;) can you think of other stronger materials than silver that would apply the same method. Also do you think this method can be applied using 3d printers as in automated solution?

[@pir869]

ever tried this on kapton tape,that would be superb with kaptons heat resistance and flexibility.

[@Psi105]

I was skeptical, but you're right, that does look to be a useful method for making prototype static flex PCBs at home

[@darkracer1252]

if you flex it the silver trace will break

[@realflow100]

well if your measuring resistance you want to be touching a large surface area to be sure of what resistance the trace is. put a tiny solder blob on two of the PCB pads one on each end and cure it. then check measurement again measuring right on top of each solder point. rather than the PCB. You should see the resistance is enormously lower.

[@natgrant1364]

That's really cool! I'm just learning electronics and sometimes I wish I could just produce a circuit board. May have to look into a laser printer now.

[@nor4277]

I would love to have that flashing light circuit you made,with smd parts,it would be a fun kit,trust me they have kits out there ,that are less interesting,that could be a conversation piece..

[@Robertkopp84]

How sterdy is it when flexing the foil? I want to use it to make ribbon cables for zif sockets to repair old consoles.

[@richolson3226]

Herr Bert - you can try - but i wouldn't bank on it

[@fuhadrock6370]

hey what if I use thermal paste instead of this silver paste. will it work... or please tell me other paste name which can be found easily any where

[@Nothinglabs]

I think thermal paste - even the silvery stuff - is not conductive so it won't work

[@fuhadrock6370]

@@Nothinglabs Hey Rich Olson thanks for the information.. Will you help me again with some information.... I am From bangladesh.... In our country Online shop has somthing like conductive silver paste... www.daraz.com.bd/products/4pcs-silver-conductive-paint-glue-heat-curing-wire-paste-adhesive-repair-application-03ml-i164570900-s1097362929.html?spm=a2a0e.searchlist.list.2.7a346299nIv3D7&search=1 this is the link plz go to our online shop site and see the description what it says... and tell me this thing is what Can be use ....

[@fuhadrock6370]

@@Nothinglabs I have given you the link...with the product.... so you directly can go and see the product...just confirm that it is the product what I can use for to make no eatch pcb.... plz plz plz

[@deeremeyer1749]

13.7 ohms of resistance in a couple inches at most of conductor and the second time you switched the leads so I'm thinking you're going to melt or ignite the "board" before you ever add enough layers to get anywhere close to the continuity you'll need for circuitry that small.

[@artbyrobot1]

As the solvent in the glue dissipates, the silver particles draw together making solid contact. He simply is being a patient in this video and hasn't given it the proper curing time. After the proper curing time has been met the glue becomes magnitudes more conductive.

[@simonsmith2802]

hi rich what software do you use for smd pcd layout

[@TheBaconWizard]

gerber.

[@dylankirdahy9591]

If you tinned the traces, maybe the conductivity of traces would improve?

[@TOMA21207]

Great job, is this method more or less expensive in comparison to traditional etching?

[@realflow100]

No idea. BUT its very precise. You can make as many as you want and it hardly uses much material. And you can print out any circuit you could imagine with it. And you can use tiny shims of paper as bridges if needed. then reprint over top of the original sheet and repeat the process of creating layers. Easy no problem. just make sure you have a consistant printer You can literally print anything that the printer will print.

[@dreggory82]

@@realflow100 dude! I love that idea!

[@gigicaly]

Good job sir. Please keep making this this sort of intriguing videos. Wish they taught me this back in school... Subscribed.

[@juliusvalentinas]

Nice silver plating, but if it's not durable like you say for flexible circuits it's no go then. For simple PCB this seems way better, and simple. Heatless (cold) Toner Transfer (for PCB)

[@penjukolev7134]

Very clever solution especially for home use by guys which are fond of electronics.

[@chikenpaww]

How about agno3, I'm little worried about this toxic things

[@uhlectronic]

THIS IS GREAT!! a layer of epoxy on top might help protect traces

[@Dries90]

Hi Rich, I'm trying your method but I have some problems with printing: thin traces stick well enough to the glossy photo paper but thicker traces and pads either don't get printed or are brushed off very easily. Do you have ideas to solve this?

[@Nothinglabs]

Hi Loph! First thing I might look at is If you have an option to tell your printer's print driver that you're using thicker paper. With some printers this will cause it to spend longer heating the paper to bond the toner to it. If you haven't already - it might be worth installing drivers from the printer manufacturer to see if it gets you more options than the default OS drivers. Might also try messing with printer resolution and "density." If that doesn't help - I might try another brand of paper. I've tested both Epson “Value Glossy Photo Paper” and PrintWorks “High Gloss Photo Paper" and had good results. My bet is that if you try various print settings / different paper brands you'll find something that works for you. If you find something that works - let me know and I'll make note of it on my blog. good luck!

[@Dries90]

Rich Olson Setting the printer to 'photo paper' fixed the printing issue! :) I used a Samsung CLP-310 with glossy HP premium photo paper. In my first test the silver epoxy (had to use MG 8330S) stuck to the ink OK, but wasn't conductive at all after 2 layers.

[@Nothinglabs]

glad printer issue got resolved. I've tested with MG8331s Part-A - but needed to cure things hotter to make it conduct well (see notes at www.nothinglabs.com/no-etch-circuit-boards-on-your-laser-printer/). MG8330s seems to be a little lower grade - so that may be factor. Are you trying it as mixxed epoxy - or just one-part? I've found some silver adhesives only start conducting after being cured. The transition can sometime be pretty drastic (going very non-conductive to very conductive quickly). I would definitely try cranking the heat up a bit (maybe 225c or more) - and curing longer to see if that helps. Good luck!

[@Dries90]

Rich Olson I'm using only the part A like you suggest in your notes. I had the choice between MG8331S and MG8330S and the only difference I could see between the two is that MG8330S has the 'extreme conductivity' label while MG8331S only has 'high conductivity' which is why I chose the former. I'll definitely keep on testing and will mail you the results :)

[@Nothinglabs]

one more thought... I've been doing some testing - and it turns out that some print materials result in what looks like good results with no conductivity (acetate sheet for instance). I suspect the epoxy carrier may permeate the toner - and get absorbed into the photo-paper - playing a roll in helping it cure. reason I bring this up is the specific photo paper being used may be more important than obvious. if all else fails - I might try to the specific epson glossy paper mention in the video. best of luck!

[@ender_732]

this way is very good。but what is the paper？

[@AnOfficialAndrewFloyd]

Low temperature solder paste for rice grain sized components and a heat gun. (slaps forehead) You just solved a problem I have had for a while.

[@gabrielsierra7671]

exelente método amigo me sorprendes , pero como quitas del papel el circuíto ?

[@ThePiGuy24]

How costly is this and does it work for through hole?

[@artbyrobot1]

You can buy a syringe the size shown in this video from Chinese sellers on eBay for around three dollars. The company he bought his from grossly overcharges steer clear. Yes it will work for through hole of course.

[@RONWOLPA]

which p c b software do you use ?

[@jim8916]

I imagine it may be quite fragile. But that is a truly beautiful idea.

[@DerH0ns]

It might be a good idea to coat the final in some clear coat

[@larrybud]

While not really practical (and probably much more expensive than etching), I do give a thumb up to innovation.

[@leon11235]

Looks good for quick prototyping. Will try this method someday.

[@neilking01]

What is the thinnest trace size that you can achieve with this method (in mils)?

[@ShaunHusain]

Neil King imagine it just depends on the printer DPI at 1200 DPI you could do 1/1200 of an inch for a trace assuming the printer actually meets the spec, I would guess half what is claimed to be true so probably 1/600th of an inch so think that is about 2mil? Edit guess you need to account for the silver thickness on the toner traces too.

[@neilking01]

Shaun Husain hmm I'm wondering if anyone has performed a practical test of this. This would be interesting valuable data.

[@ShaunHusain]

I could run the experiment with regular ferric chloride etching method but don't have any of the silver compound to try... I do have some solder paste wonder if it would do the trick for tinning the toner, imagine getting the alcohol acetone mix would be different but will let you know if I give it a go here.

[@neilking01]

Shaun Husain yes, please give it a go if you can. thx :)

[@ShaunHusain]

Yeah the solder paste is tin bismuth and a bit of silver so will see if it works at all. If so can print some variable width lines to compare the methods. I imagine the thin lines on flexible paper might be a problem but we'll see, need to go grab some cotton balls.

[@hanniffydinn6019]

Surely some plastic overhead projector type paper is better ???? Good idea....

[@DCFusor]

If you're browning glossy paper (clay coated) you're gonna turn plastic into a liquid - if you're lucky. Decomposition can be nastier yet.

[@heyyowatchthis]

NICE! thank you for showing us your wonderful research

[@andre-7423]

maybe you can use a fuser assembly from an laser printer to precisely heat/ cure the silver glue. the fuser is coated with Teflon, and should work fine. adjusting its speed and temperature would give uniform and pepper cure every time.

[@therestorationofdrwho1865]

Do you know how you create the design of the board traces?

[@chaos.corner]

Eagle is a pretty well used program though there are certainly others.

[@zg9xUmvV]

try kicad.

[@BurkenProductions]

I thought you were gonna retransfer the silver adhesive to a fr4 board too that woujd have been nicer

[@guruji243]

Very nice thanks for sharing. Did you ever tried with inkjet instead of laser printer? Thanks.

[@Nothinglabs]

yes - doesn't seem to work with inkjet

[@ShaunHusain]

guruji243 don't think it will work with inkjet. Inkjet like the name implies basically stains the paper with ink that doesn't transfer well and I doubt would hold the silver, the toner in laser jets is more of a fine plastic powder I believe and sits on the surface and is just melted on top of the page whereas inkjet is more like liquid pen ink and sinks into the paper fibers.

[@gravijta936]

This method won't work with an inkjet, but you can look up "conductive ink printer". I'm not sure how well it works, but you take an empty ink cartridge and refill it with silver ink. That way all you have to do is hit "print" and you're done.

[@fly3209]

amazing... if you want a lower resistance for traces add more layers...

[@changethematrix]

Is that really safe to have a circuit board on paper. If it generates too much heat it could catch on fire.

[@artbyrobot1]

It will not generate much heat if you make the traces wide and thick enough. This comes down to proper design and testing. If the traces are wide and thick enough the resistance is low enough for the current you want to run making the traces not get hot

[@antigen4]

hmm but the resistance will be pretty high and current carrying capacity zilch no?? i guess it would be kind of an interesting way to (not have to use resistors)

[@artbyrobot1]

There are silver epoxies with extremely low resistance. These will have a higher concentration of silver powder close to 70%. I plan to buy cheap silver epoxy mix in my own fine silver powder which I bought separately

[@Buciasda33]

might be ok for wearables after applying some heavy protection :)

[@anhtuannguyen7570]

can i use any type printer or must laser printer?

[@richolson3226]

need to use a laser printer. did not have any luck with inkjet.

[@anhtuannguyen7570]

thanks

[@ChrisMuncy]

That's impressive Rich, nice job.

[@chaos.corner]

Might be worth seeing if the adhesive cures with UV.

[@websonic1000]

HI, Very nice video. How ever, if you really want to improve quality if your printed circuit, you need to do something about imperfections on surfaces. main cause of resistance on your "silver" circuit are those imperfections. Try just to hard polish them with the spoon, you will be amassed with result. This will add and more flexibility to it. Cheers.

[@Nothinglabs]

Hi Igor - Just tried this. took a spoon and rubbed it over area of the board until I got a little shine. got small improvement - maybe 10% in conductivity. problem was it was very hard to get consistent polish over a larger area without scraping the silver off.

[@websonic1000]

Hmmm, Silver is not that hard, this was supposed to do a trick. To be honest I have tried this only with copper nano particles and I got quite good results.

[@x87alpha1]

I don't think you need the solder paste step, a little glue under the resistors may suffice. It'll be good to see if this has any health hazards... Any doctors out there?

[@bjarnehansen1101]

Oh. My. Gosh. This is sooooo amazing! All etching trys dont realy turn out good but with this... Oh my!

[@flomojo2u]

VERY cool! I love the super high quality traces and pads you get, it really blows away conventional toner transfer method. Looks like it’s more suited for small, low power circuits though. How much was the silver paste, and where did you get it from?

[@artbyrobot1]

It is equally suited to large high-power circuits you just have to modify the traces make them thicker and wider of course no different than copper traces.

[@carlharman]

try using dtg printer straight to pcb board..

[@Fred_Klingon]

Very nice technique! Thanks for sharing! Maybe there's a way to transfer the traces on the pcb, and then doing the etching with the acid as usual?

[@ABW941]

Hm, nice Idea but it doesnt look like it is durable, since we can see how it is breaking when parts are soldered to it at 4:45 and forth.

[@robertbilling6266]

Great idea, if I get a chance I'll try this.

[@mikedjames]

Neat idea but using silver means the circuit board will not last. Some of the first PCBs used silver layers but silver was abandoned because it grows short circuit dendrites between tracks with moisture present. So copper was used because the dendrites are less easy to form. Tin also forms dendrites why old PCBs get shorts and leakage on boards without solder masks... And copper on FR4 boards does it inside the board.. look up Conductive Anodic Filaments..

[@artbyrobot1]

Simply apply lacquer over your circuit and you have a solder mask. You can use clear nail polish. This will prevent moisture from contacting the silver traces and make the board last just as long as any copper board.

[@chuckwilcox6997]

Excellent piece of experimenting, with a great end result. Thanks for sharing.

[@bugs181]

What steps would you recommend if I wanted to try this method using a reflow oven? Great video, by the way! Liked + Subbed.

[@tablatronix]

Does anyone make conductive foil transfer film?

[@DCFusor]

Awesome resolution compared to printing on transparency and then contact printing pre sensitized pcb material.

[@MrBobWareham]

very clever well done and thanks for sharing

[@TheBaconWizard]

Added to my favourites list. Thanks!

[@jurijmonzon]

instead of adding silver paste more and more you can just tin it)

[@Kezat]

Well the solder paste took to the silver well, so I guess you could apply a thin layer over the entire board to reduce resistance.

[@tentative_flora2690]

What about electroplating with copper?

[@dreggory82]

@@tentative_flora2690 yes!