No, Pikmin 4's Difficulty Isn't Horribly Designed... BUT

[@theconsumerofpenguins81]

Routers are so great. Without them, I could never connect to the internet.

[@QuasoIsNotFood]

I wanted to say that!

[@orionstiehm7025]

One thing I have to say is that I do agree that the game is made for route optimization. So when I got the game and beat it a couple time I tried to 100% the game in as little days as possible. So at first I though I would have to do every area in one day, that is until I remembered Louie's quest witch actively makes you go back to areas. So I didn't even need to complete the area in one day, I have to return later so I didn't even bother trying to learn how to route the area, because it wouldn't matter in the least amount of days. Basically: The game wants you to finish the area in one day for optimization, but makes you go back there multiple times so there is no reason to do so.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

The confusion on what “replaying for 100%” even means is another of the many flaws lol, I recommend trying out going for All Areas 100%. It lets you focus exclusively on the main game while providing an actually good min-day challenge; only the first and final areas can’t be completed in a single day.

[@Mlaeaos]

I'm not saying pikmin 4 is bad in any way, but i think one of the most challenging and fun things i did in it was in the demo. It was so fun to figure out how to finish the sun-speckled terrace while not going over the sparklium limit. If the entire game did something like this, i think i would have liked it slightly more

[@Bwitty03]

same here, especially finding out how to get the blue onion in the area

[@ExploreImagineDefineCreate]

Same! I enjoyed it so much that now I think the sun-speckled terrance is the 3rd best area in the game. Many people say it's one of the worst if not the worst area. But I just enjoyed it so much in the demo that the challenge and the familiarization with it made me appreciate playing it in the full game.

[@seanimo8579]

You could make your own challenge like that.

[@Mlaeaos]

@seanimo8579 True, but what would the sparklium caps be? You would've already done this to the previous areas; they would have already been 100% completed.

[@j.k.4479]

The thing is poor strategy (dandori) isn't punished, there is no limit on the number of days you have to complete the game, and creatures don't reappear on the surface making it so you once you clear an area that change is permanent. Pikmin 2 at least made sure to re-spawn creatures so inefficiency was punished. Pikmin 4 basically never punishes the player for poor planing.

[@Idontplaytf2]

I wanted to farm for the max amount of pikmin but sadly I don’t want to farm pellets.

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

Correct. The only way it tries to convince you to do it is by saying do the efficiency and the day counters

[@nothinginteresting7558]

As a chill gamer, I love the fact that I can just take my time exploring this beautiful world full of marvelous creatures. I'm tired of the gamer movement actively bashing easy games as if they make your experience less fun

[@Pikmanfan2002]

@@nothinginteresting7558Which is exactly what’s so interesting about game balancing. Pikmin 4 is an exceptionally easy game to just beat… but that’s not really a bad thing in of itself. For those who want a challenge, there’s the Dandori. Very similar to Mario games, where anyone can play them, but tricks and skips are intentionally built into the experience. Pikmin’s design being comparable to Mario makes a lot of sense…

[@EATZYOWAFFLEZ]

​@@nothinginteresting7558Easy games are definitely less fun for many people. That's not to say easy games are bad, they certainly have their place, but to take the difficulty established by pikmin 1+2 and completely throw it out the window in 4 is definitely disappointing for many fans. There was an expectation of challenge that simply wasn't met.

[@GeneGerald925]

Good video. Pikmin 4 is confusing. I love it and hate it with both sides of my brain. The perfected pikmin player and the casual enjoyer part. Its still great, but i cant deny its so easy and doesn’t punish EVER. Planning is the most important part but there’s still no challenge regardless of how fast youre trying to go.

[@monopolyrubix1875]

I don't agree with your thesis that Pikmin 4 is meant to be played as a routing challenge, because they removed the ability to redo previous days that was present in 3 and the remakes of 1. Redoing sections of the game is vital to trying and comparing different routes, but the game makes you start a whole new save if you want to redo a section. Not having the ability to go back only makes sense if the focus is supposed to be on moment-to-moment gameplay. I do agree with your take that the game is confused about what it wants to be, and think this is evidence for it.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Yeah, this was a point I was thinking about bringing up near the end. The game compensates for this issue with its rewind time feature, which does let you repeat the same section over and over again easily and allows for rapid testing and improvement… but the permanent saves hurts so much. At least you can always make a copy of a save, but that takes two save slots and requires you to quit the game after every day.

[@evilrymon]

I feel that this video is great at explaining the pitfalls of Pikmin 4, and the brilliance of it all at once, however, I do feel like the message should be less so 'don't mix all Pikmin game feels together', but rather that 'There should be more emphasis on splitting a game up when attempting to combine game feels'. Pikmin 4 is not "trying to be too many things", it's trying too hard to appease everyone at every single moment of gameplay. It's not impossible to have Pikmin 2 - esque caves with no sunlight timer whilst exploring, and still emphasise speed and routing, but you can't do all of it in one go. Splitting the gameplay experience so that it's different in a cave, giving only a small dandori emphasis and a large execution emphasis would go a long way; to have that contrast to above ground where the emphasis is reversed, not removed, but reversed.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

On one hand, if they properly balanced out the gameplay, this would still run into the problem where Cave fans want longer caves and Dandori fans want no caves. Having it be far more focused on one or the other likely leads to a better, more enjoyable game for the people it’s made for. On the other hand, do it Nintendo. Make this genuinely challenging. Routing and executing in the overworld not just to collect the stuff there, but also prepare for the grueling massacre that will be a cave adventure. All while having the day timer still pass in caves to add more chaos. If we’re gonna combine caves and Dandori, then we gotta go all-out in both aspects. Abuse the contrast in gameplay to create yet another incredibly unique experience Of course, we can only dream…

[@evilrymon]

@@Pikmanfan2002 genuinely, I was moreso thinking of a specific time condition for caves, not passing time outside, but rather a risk-of-rain-esque system where you CAN stay, but it's more risky. Deeply punishing slow gameplay, whilst keeping g caves similar for on the fly thinking and reaction based efforts for clearing their tough challenges. Though, embracing that you could have caves which can take up a day instead could work if done correctly too ig.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

@@evilrymon Lol put the waterwraith in every cave, hear me out-

[@evilrymon]

@@Pikmanfan2002 wasn't exactly what I was thinking, I believe the channel Press A! found out that it'd be bad, I just mean like having more enemies come back in, like slowly, you might notice a bulborb is back, eventually maybe a bulbear appears. Maybe not much respawning, as it could get tedious, but enough to encourage moving on. Caves would have to be designed around this, but it'd be an invisible timer, keeping caves to being an endurance focused area, but by simply having enemies come in over time, you are still encouraged to go quickly. Keeps the core gameplay, but with a small, but prevalent addition of time management, it still focuses on dandori, and still would make them feel like P2 caves. It gives an opportunity to change up the game feel, and reverse gameplay priority without removing it, and would be able to freshen up gameplay every now and then.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

@@evilrymon Yeah the Waterwraith comment was just a joke lol, but it is also the main reason the Submerged Castle really sticks out as being a good cave in the first place for exactly the reason you’re saying

[@PikKraken8]

Something you missed is that Pikmin 4 IS replayable in certain situations: Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale is great for this, and can be played repeatedly on the same save file.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Olimar’s Shipwreck Tale my beloved …why did they do Hero’s Hideaway like that

[@GoldenTerrabyte]

12:54 I can make it even worse for you In Pikmin 3 Deluxe, the L and R bumpers for swapping Pikmin types are reversed for no reason, and in Pikmin 4, they aren't

[@Pikmanfan2002]

That explains a lot honestly

[@BhavdeepSoin]

Man your videos are the best. You provide in depth analysis’s on why things are the way they are, and back them up with great reasons. I wish you had a bigger audience to share all this knowledge, cause you absolutely deserve it. I really hope you continue to make more content on Pikmin, and eventually reach the last Pikmin type database. Much Love!

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Thank you!

[@QJrocks]

I was going to write up a comment, but you honestly covered everything I wanted to say at 11:35. I absolutely loved Pikmin 4, and routing the challenge modes and night missions were incredibly fun. But *man*, sometimes it really feels like the game begs you to route it and then does everything in its power to prevent you from doing so. Honestly, despite its mistakes, I don't regret the game. It does a lot of things that are really cool (aquarium caves my beloved); I just hope that Pikmin 5 is a bit more focused on what it wants to do.

[@Magic_Ice]

If you view Pikmin 4 as a collectathon rather than an RTS it’s a lot better imo

[@Pikmanfan2002]

It is great as an RTS, but you gotta play it like one, and not everyone can get into that process lol. For a casual playthrough, it can easily hit the same fun factor as a game like Banjo-Kazooie

[@ExploreImagineDefineCreate]

​​@@Pikmanfan2002Honest question. Do you think Pikmin 4 and the Pikmin series in general are actually RTS games?

[@Pikmanfan2002]

@@ExploreImagineDefineCreate Yeah, without a doubt. Their specific style of play, while being different than standard RTS affairs, still holds true to the staples, with the most notable differences being how you control the game and what the goal is. Instead of a top-down multiplayer versus game where you omnipotently command your troops, you play as a physical character in a singleplayer experience. There’s plenty of arguments to be had on which game counts as an “RTS” as well (Pikmin 2 is a funny thing) but game genres are insanely vague and can accommodate so many different variations of the same type of experience. And that’s what Pikmin 2 is, a heavy variation on an RTS game, with priorities shifted to type management rather than time management. Meanwhile, Pikmin 4’s variation of an RTS lets it be a collectathon with RTS gameplay, but also allows for a time-management playstyle.

[@idk01123]

The game is all about Dandori! (And then they fold mission and vs mode into the main game for no reason with no way to optimize them.) (And then they add night missions with no way to optimize them) (And then the doomsday apparatus) (And-

[@fourrouge3471]

But the mission, vs, and night mode missions are the only parts of the game that actually want you to use dandori. (not including olimars shipwreck tale since that was great and had great dandori) The main story and caves had no reason to optimize.

[@fourrouge3471]

Although a version of the main story where dandori and a day counter were built in, it would make for a more enjoyable experience as can be seen though olimars shipwreck tale which used the mechanics shown in the game to great amounts

[@fourrouge3471]

But the final cave was the point where I felt the game was starting to pick up, but then it ended since it was the last part in the game and gave me that type of jerk pikmin 2 cave design that I’m a fan of.

[@Dracomut]

Well done, I think you did a good job examining the game without being too biased in one direction. A lot of people put Pikmin 4 on a high pedestal, which I can honestly understand since I love it to death, but it definitely has its problems. On the other hand a lot of people have also gotten way too negative towards the game and made mountains out of molehills. You found a good balance of criticism and praise.

[@7theluigimaster7]

I'll repeat what I said in imonlyhereforpikmin's video, "The main problem with Pikmin 4 revolves around "Dandori". In all the other games, strategizing and planning come naturally and if you aren't doing it well, it can end up costing you many Pikmin or go as far as a game over; but in 4, being efficient is forced on you, the whole game wants you to do things QUICKLY. It's all about speed, not how well you play the game, and so they made the game be really easy." To add to this, this is bad because instead of punishing the player for being inefficient and having them strategize and get better, it does the complete opposite. "Even with the time limit of 1 or the juice system of 3, speed is the secondary aspect of your efficiency in the previous games, the first being saving your Pikmin. Being efficient means not losing Pikmin, losing too many means you have to take more time growing them back and in 2 it means going through a cave again. You need to manage and control your Pikmin well in order to be efficient, but in 4, you have the stupid dog that makes this entirely trivial; not to mention that losing Pikmin is simply harder to begin with." To also add to this, this makes the game feel like the focus is less about the Pikmin and mostly just the "Dandori". They don't feel as important in Pikmin 4, both gameplay-wise and story-wise, which is pretty sad. Unrelated to the difficulty, I think Pikmin 4 also falls short in other aspects compared to the other games; like its story, areas and final boss.

[@Grima1805]

"Is this cutting my fingers off?" Thankfully no

[@boper8438]

6:15 how have I never seen this strategy until now

[@CrayonEater9845]

I think the issue with Pikmin 4 is that it lacks a pit of success (ie the player cannot simply fall into the best and most fun way to play). I'm sure routing can be incredibly fun, but most players don't play like that. It's a very intrinsic way to play and Pikmin 4 doesn't encourage it at all other than screaming dandori repeatedly. Pikmin 2 requires you to think on your feet and the caves giving new layouts when you reset forces that. Pikmin 4 might have been better off with a time limit or consequences as time goes on. Then the player can plan a route and reset the day to execute the route. Nothing encourages routing so no "difficulty" exists to be had. Also, if you haven't tried battle mode, I'd recommend this video that explain the failure of dandori compared to the other Pikmin games: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hIbdaaV9mJhsbsksi=m1ef4JHYpwS0dtmH

[@DarkCT]

I can agree with some of your points. even only glancing at the pikmin games the fact is the main glitchless way to clear the games with a challenge in mind is to speedrun them, and it's not even a question. it doesn't mean i can stand the changes and how much they streamlined the game along that path. your bomb rock example between pikmin 1 and 3 really points out how pikmin isn't even trying to be a world anymore, but a game, and then 4 actively controlling elements for you takes it even further and reads as to much to me. sure, the bomb rock pikmin could have many possible reactions in 1, some of which shouldn't ever occur, but if anything that gave the game more charm, made the game feel more alive. the pikmin 2 cave randomizations and enemy methods indeed forced you to be on your toes, and i liked that. I get you loving that this is the angle the games seems to be commiting to, but it's definitely not a game series for me at this point. one of the things i hate losing the most in a game setting is nuance. about the only reason this doesn't bug me more is Pikmin was clearly designed towards this direction to begin with. I guess id be more mad if they let us do restrictive pikmin runs in the early games than they did, then threw in all the blocks and glitch bypasses. Give me pikmin 2 any day, im not touching 4 for long if i ever do.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

The increasing puzzlefication of the Pikmin games, while focusing their gameplay, loses an audience that once enjoyed what was offered. It’s really interesting, honestly

[@gass19]

As someone who also loves Pikmin 4 but recognizes its flaws you definitely made some good points here. If I had to add something I would add that the game's target audience is confusing as well. The long tutorial, the simplification of the execution, and other things make you think that It's targeted towards beginners who've never played a Pikmin game before, but It's also throwing a bone towards series veteran by bringing back fan favorite enemies (Water Wraith, Man-at-legs, Smoky Progg), references to previous games, the focus on optimization and so on. While I do believe that a game can be good for both casual players and fans alike, I think this can make the experience somewhat dissapointing for both sides. I honestly hope the next game includes multiple difficulty modes (like 3DX did but better) so people can customize their playthrough more.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Completely agreed

[@samgrainger1554]

Was piss easy. That made it more of a collectathon than an RTS

[@Ezaluna]

Thing is, even in the context of Dandori on its own, making all those little optimizations... I think 4 falls flat. Auto-lock gets in the way, the 3 type limit prevents proper strategizing, and there's no obstacles preventing you from executing your planned route. A good route is also far easier to find thanks to additions like moving your base, and most areas being relatively linear compared to its predecessors. It's not just combat that was simplified, but the map layouts were too. I think this is most obvious when compared with 3's Challenge Mode. Getting platinum in all of those challenges is **significantly** harder than it is in 4, and that's because there are things that can go wrong in your execution, and the areas are a lot more open to different ideas of approach. It's extremely simple to find an effective route in 4's challenges, and the vast majority of them just feel like you're moving around in a predetermined circle, rather than optimizing what to do when. Even 2 does Dandori better, thanks to the randomness found in caves. It forces you to come up with new approaches, whereas 4 always employs the same methods. Both permit you to take your time, but if the goal is optimization, then 2 is far more engaging than 4, as there is actual variety in the situations the player encounters. The three type limit is especially egregious. There are far fewer elemental checks in this game, as it wants to ensure you can make it through most areas no matter the composition of your squad. It makes sense to add a limitation as to prevent players from being overwhelmed with this choice, now that there's so many Pikmin types - but what it boils down to is that most areas feel designed with just a single type in mind. Overall, I feel like all of these limitations are actually the antithesis of Dandori. The simplest way to phrase it is that there's far less room for player expression - it's not just combat that's too easy, but routing too. You mention instances in Serene Shores where Rock and Winged Pikmin can be useful - which is true - but I think it's valid to compare this directly with Pikmin 3, where Winged Pikmin have significantly more instances where they can express unique pathing. Instances like this are exceptions in 4, rather than the constant they've been in the rest of the series.

[@TP3200]

This is the best video I’ve ever seen about Pikmin 4. Most others I’ve seen have focused mostly on the positive (with the thesis that 4 is the best Pikmin game because it’s the biggest and prettiest), or highlighted only the negative, which also doesn’t seem like the whole story. This video summed up why on one hand I admit Pikmin 4 is impressive and definitely not the definition of a “bad” game. But on the other hand I had more trouble having consistent fun than the others, and all the other 3 games seem more focused on what they want to do. But what you said leaves me hopeful that maybe I will replay 4 someday and have more fun than I expect.

[@tonydiemaccaroni5934]

1:09 Hey! Pikmin mentioned :0

[@Counterpoint3002]

Thanks for this video. I watched the IOHFP video in question and while I think he was correct with many of the points (and also, screw auto-lock on, that genuinely sucks), I also think he missed the point of what Pikmin 4 was going for. Like, I hardly ever got joy out of Pikmin 4 from the combat, but found a lot of enjoyment in all the Dandori aspects and just trying my best (in a relaxed way). I can tell I believe it's a good game because I agree with your video 100%, including criticisms I hadn't thought of before, and it still didn't change how I *feel* about the game

[@knatkniht]

Your argument lacks nuance. You claim that pikmin 4 combat should be easy so that you have to focus on routing, but the level design is extremely open, so routing is only important if you're speedrunning. You're arguing that 4 is good for your preferred specific niche playstyle that is only even worth experiencing after beating the game once. Previous pikmin games had some bs mechanics and bs difficulty, but that doesn't mean the solution is to go the extreme opposite and make it so that players don't have to try to beat enemies. Because the game is so easy, the variety of the enemies matters very little, and your dandori becomes less important anyway. Enemy combat requiring strategy used to enhance routing, making sure you had to manage your pikmin more effectively as well as choose which path was fastest, which was at its peak in 3. 4 makes it so that each enemy is a simple stop sign, just making sure that you stop to kill it on the way to whatever your goal is instead of an obstacle. This is why the pikmin the sucks too. It doesn't actually achieve anything unless you already know what puzzles you'll be doing, and which pikmin types can be left behind. TLDR: Everything you're defending serves to only make repeated playthroughs and speedrunning the game more enjoyable, which you have clearly been doing a lot of. But that isn't good design. You're arguing that the game isn't poorly designed because you've made up your own challenge. (Something that every pikmin game can also have btw)

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Heads up, thank you so much for this comment, this is a good comment. I typed a lot of freaking words here and I am very proud with what I have to say, and I hope you enjoy the wall of text I have: Yeah, I'm saying the game is good for my preferred specific niche playstyle, but my argument is that the game's primary failure is in not properly encouraging this playstyle, especially since it's the intended way to play through it. Pizza Tower is a fantastic example of a game that does this right. It serves as a fun, fairly easy casual romp to play through with a lot of humor and charm. And despite its ease, the initial playthrough is a great one. But if you seek an actual challenge, you need to go for its P ranks, which require significantly more effort than beating the game normally does. Those who thoroughly enjoy Pizza Tower agree the most fun you can have in the game is to play it in a speed-focused way. This is a very specific niche playstyle, not everyone's gonna like it, but by being designed for it, the game becomes significantly better for those within the niche. Pikmin 4 perfectly fits this same bill. In a casual playthrough, if you're not interested in the challenge, you get a fun, charming experience that really pays attention to all the little things. Memorable enemies, cool locations, real-world treasures. But for those who do want to push the game, Pikmin 4's challenge is in its speed. Not speedrunning, per se, as that's challenging you to beat the game quick in real-time, but rather aiming to beat the game in the fewest days possible. This is a challenge that's also offered in Pikmin 1 and 3, but more clearly communicated thanks to their time limits, high-score screens, and more. It's not a challenge I made up, it's the challenge intended for the whole series from the start. Pikmin 4 fails to communicate the speed challenge properly, both by not letting people know about its existence, and in failing to make the experience even cohesive. By throwing Pikmin 2 into the mix, it presents itself as a different kind of game, and even shifts some of its design to accommodate this... but this shift just muddies the waters even further. It was always trying to be too much of Pikmin 3 to ever successfully be Pikmin 2, and the best course of action for the game would've either been to better separate these aspects, or to only focus on one half from the beginning. Pikmin 4 is far from a perfect game, it's got plenty of problems, but I don't think the direction they took for combat is one of them. On one hand, it's Nintendo, so of course they don't want to make the game terribly difficult, but that's not a bad thing. There's a lot of people out there who play games and just kind of... suck at them. A lot a lot. And Pikmin is inherently a really freaking weird game in the first place that takes a significant amount of getting used to. A lot of the ease in difficulty is meant to make Pikmin more accessible, let anyone hop in and partake in the weird world without the stress of a timer or the fear of losing large amounts of Pikmin. Losing these aspects of the game is a massive shame, they were core parts of the experience that have been lessened significantly, but that's exactly why Nintendo then designs it in a very Nintendo-esque way. Look at Mario Odyssey, another notably easy game that's famous for how far you can push it. Pikmin 4's easy enemies can be multipurposed for challenges just by emphasizing speed, by encouraging quick play and proper planning. Despite being so simple, enemies still require some level of knowledge, execution and planning to deal with effectively. There's something absolutely lost, there's no doubt about it, but it's not a loss for nothing. TLDR; A lot of Pikmin 4's easiness does originate from trying to be a more accessible game, which was likely an attempt to revitalize the series in the public eye through a major new release on a very popular console -- it came out right after Tears of the Kingdom, a sequel to one of the most revolutionary games in recent times, and I don't know if that was an intentional part of the plan or not. But by trying to be accessible, by trying to make the enjoyment of the game the inherent charm and fun factor of the world, it winds up with an exceptionally easy experience that disappoints those looking for a challenge. Nintendo loves to compensate for low skill floors by having an interesting high skill ceiling, where on repeated playthroughs, you can improve, grow and have fun with the game in new ways, play it differently. And while it's excessively simplified, there's still requirements in routing, preparation and execution for combat. The easy enemies get to work in a challenging environment, all while still emphasizing a unique style of play the games were always interested in from Day 1. A Day 1 in the most literal sense. But despite their efforts in this regard, many random miscellaneous decisions show up and only hurt the general experience. TLDR but more; Pikmin 4's difficulty is not a reason it's poorly designed. For what it's trying to do, it's amazingly designed in some ways, and terribly designed in other ways. Instead, the core issue with Pikmin 4 isn't even an issue, it's just not a game everyone's gonna like. The Pikmin games have shifted their focus in a new direction, and while this new direction is great in some aspects, it also alienates a large portion of an audience that used to enjoy the series. The easy enemies are easy enemies, and if you don't like easy enemies, then yeah. Completely understandable, they are kind of pathetic. But because of how much of a "starter game" Pikmin 4 is also trying to be, the game wasn't trying to make them excessively difficult in the first place. Calling them "poorly designed" when they're achieving their intended goal is just incorrect. thank you for listening to my 1000 word ted talk, I absolutely should've said some of this in the video... but also it's comments like these that can bring out the deeper meaning and thought out of something lol

[@knatkniht]

@@Pikmanfan2002 I appreciate your thoughtful response. However, I wouldn't say speedrunning/replaying the game was Nintendo's intent. It's not exactly a quick game and its lengthy tutorial actively discourages repeat playthroughs. Nintendo in general doesn't design for what you say the game is meant for. And its also an extreme. Combat is so easy and you are so busted that enemies lose their individuality. That's easier than your average kirby game. Nintendo tends to make games that are easier, but not THIS easy. They did this because pikmin, even when 3 was brought to switch, has historically undersold. They thought that the game was just too complex for people, and as one last effort to get the series to sell well, they made it so easy that anyone could play, to the detriment of its fans. On your other note, pikmin has always been a mix of combat and routing. They were designed not just to work together, but to complement and enhance each other. What you are advocating for is the removal of half of the game's core loop. This gets worse when both combat and routing were worth more than the sum of their parts. You can't isolate either without losing something. You used to have to bring specific types to take out specific enemies, but now any pikmin can defeat almost any enemy, and oatchi can take care of what's left over. You no longer have to account for enemies in your pathing, unless you are trying to be perfectly optimal. This makes pathing easier and aids it, but once again strips away complexity. You have come up with a playstyle that complies with pikmin 4's lackluster design instead of admitting that pikmin 4 has been poorly designed.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Pikmin 4 was 110% intended to be replayed, routed, and optimized. It's the sole purpose of the word Dandori. Check out this awesome series of interviews: www.nintendo.com/en-gb/News/2023/July/Ask-the-Developer-Vol-10-Pikmin-4-Chapter-1-2416028.html#section-01 "Games are fun because of the continual trial and error. Pikmin seems to be often associated with its characters and world first, but it does possess fundamental fun as a video game. As you repeat the same gameplay, you develop your own technique, which improves efficiency and results in higher scores." - Miyamoto "At first we were worried that Oatchi may make battles too easy against native creatures. But Oatchi deepens the strategic nature of the game because players are able either to control both their character and Oatchi at the same time or to assign a different role to each. You can strategise like, 'Should I have Oatchi remove the obstacles first?' or, 'Nope, I'll let the Pikmin handle that and have Oatchi take care of the creatures instead'." - Kando "It's similar to The Legend of Zelda series' 'breaking the conventions', but just as in that series, we thought it would be better to leave it up to players which order they encounter Pikmin in, rather than having the game decide it for them. This thought shaped the elements of Dandori, and players are now free to try out their own ideas, like using Ice Pikmin in a certain place to get the job done faster." - Kando "I guess the gameplay encourages players to hone their skills. They should rewind time liberally to find their own ways of improving Dandori." - Interviewer "It's all about getting in those reps to grow your Dandori muscles." - Miyamoto Fighting is stupidly simple, and it can be a detriment to many people's enjoyment, but in the context of Dandori, it's now an extra layer in the deep level of optimization Pikmin 4 thrives in. It simplifies the execution, but while the skill ceiling in this regard is lower, the insane amount of powerful tools you have at your disposal creates a new, even higher skill ceiling in the routing potential. However, despite this primary focus, Pikmin 4 fails for the reasons you stated and more. The tutorial sucks, the game is freaking long. It wants to appeal to as many people as possible, both returning fans and new players, but in doing so, it muddies the focus. "So as a result of numerous considerations over a long period of time, the fourth game welcomes people with various different tastes. There were completely different takes on how Pikmin games should be between those who liked the style of Pikmin 1 and those who preferred that of Pikmin 2, so maybe Pikmin 4 can finally bring the debate of 'Pikmin 1 people' versus 'Pikmin 2 people' to an end." - Kando The easy enemies are easy. If you want challenging enemies then that makes complete sense, but easy enemies don't automatically make the game worse. It's a different flavor that requires different decisions in different ways that gives Pikmin 4 its own identity in the routing department. It gives a prominent, objective answer to combat in the form of Oatchi, but also gives Oatchi so much freaking nonsense that, chances are, there's something better to use him on. This is the core decision that flows through the entirety of Pikmin 4, in every stage, and every sublevel. "What can I be using Oatchi on, and what can I be using Pikmin on?" Attempting to find the answer to this decision, and seeing it unfold in a comically fast way is, to me, freaking awesome and I love it, but I'm not everyone. With that said, this was also the developer's intention of Oatchi, while also doubling as a way to lower Pikmin's difficulty.

[@knatkniht]

@@Pikmanfan2002 These are talking about pikmin in general, not 4 specifically. That's what the challenge modes are all about anyway. And no, all the enemies are easy, and next to none require specific pikmin types anymore. You keep arguing under the guise that pikmin 4 should be played more than once for speed times, which is just wrong. Not only would more challenge enhance your playstyle, but it is objectively poor design to have to play a whole game more than once in order for it to be competent. You are making your own fun, regardless of dev intent.

[@kindlyevilbgm]

@@Pikmanfan2002Ultimately you are saying that Pikmin 4 is poorly designed, because you admit that a lot of choices that the developers made don’t encourage playing the game with Dandori as the focus. If a game fails to encourage people to use the playstyle the game was designed for, then the game is definitely poorly designed. It’s like if a stealth game allowed you to mow down all the enemies with no repercussions. That’s poor design.

[@cyruscrompton8221]

Thank you for the vid, i felt like the og video was a terrible analysis and this cleared it more. BUT JEEZ THE REWIND IS OP

[@therealvolcano]

you used the bombs in 1 wrong also using gyro-stick instead of gyro-pointer in 3DX is a crime, speaking of controls as someone who can excellently route 1 & 3 (and do stuff on the fly in 2) 4 fails simply because its controls actively go against optimal gameplay the gyro is horrible if you actually want to do quick and preemptive aiming like the wii/wiiu titles (and 3DX gyro pointer) and autolock is actively putting me on a worse route than I have planned I'm better at the game than it thinks I am and because of that the controls are the actual biggest hindrance towards any possible routing (and fun fact, dealing with bad controls makes it hard to quickly react to stuff in caves)

[@Pikmanfan2002]

I think the only real issue with 4's controls is the auto lock-on, the way the gyro/stick hybrid controls work in every Switch version is honestly so good. Gamepad controls on Wii U pale in comparison to the Wiimote, but Stick controls on Deluxe I wound up finding better than the gyro pointer... don't get me wrong though, what the frick were they doing with 4's auto lock-on, I completely get if you find that as the ruining factor for Dandori in Pikmin 4 (also I was kind of rushing this video to get it done by the game's birthday lol, I just didn't have the time to actually use the bombs right. Which in a way is kind of the point I was making, but I could've also shown it a lot better so... uh, oops)

[@rafaelcarmona4647]

routing helps so much to making feel every replay of the game different (I played like 10 times pikmin 2 and it's still my favorite of the saga but every playthrough feeled very similar to one another in terms of routing, what's different is the execution), my biggest complain in that regard is that pikmin 4 doesn't make the enemies on the surface respawn so making bad decisions is not as heavily punished, and there's no limit on the number of days so that dismotaves u into making the best out of each day on the first playthrough. I remember that when I first played a pikmin 2 I didn't want any pikmin die so I took things slowly wich led me to not being able to pay the debt in time and then I had to restart but with a greater understanding of the game. I'm in favour of doing games easier to new audiences and pikmin 3 and 4 do a great job at that but there's still much to improve in terms of game design

[@StarlightEcho912]

Pikmin 4 was amazing. Maybe it was because of recency, but after my first playthrough, I considered it not only one of my top 10 favorite games, but also the best of the Pikmin games (ordered by significance). That being said, it's also the first Pikmin game I outright haven't been back to yet, and I have no plans to return to Pikmin 4 for the foreseeable future because fun as it may be, it has just as many flaws as the rest of the series and I'd have to endure them for much longer. I'd still consider Pikmin 4 a top 10 favorite (and *maybe* the best game in the series still), but that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. Screw the lock on specifically on floor 7 of the Trial of the Sage Leaf. I'm shocked there wasn't a toggle to turn it off, because I emotionally needed a toggle going through that one.

[@angrymoths]

How can something be your favorite in the whole franchise but also be something you're quite positive you won't revist in the FORSEEABLE future? Your words not mine. Like, are you not revisting any of them? I think wanting to revisit a game is a much stronger indicator of how much you like it. It does not sound like you like Pikmin 4, yet you insist it's your favorite? Very oxymoronic statements, contradictory.

[@StarlightEcho912]

@@angrymoths idk just the way I am I guess

[@angrymoths]

@@StarlightEcho912 I guess, it's just odd you know? "I like this game, it's my favorite! but I don't see myself playing it ever again." I mean I play plenty of games, and many that are Good, but not GREAT enough for me to want to replay too badly if at all, but the great ones? Even if it takes me years, I'm certainly going to get an itch to replay. Like Pikmin 1, or Resident Evil 4, Dark Souls 1. Those are games I could replay endlessly, or any time, and have a blast, get hooked on again. Maybe you are just different. Idk, maybe think about your games, or the question of why you may like them a little more critically. Just be honest with that, and you'll come to appreciate them more deeply. It's okay to like and dislike stuff. I'm only saying this because of how contradictory your statement was, but hey, maybe you are just an enigma and you just "like" it that way with little depth needed to justify it. Fair enough, but I'm unsure that's true.

[@StarlightEcho912]

@@angrymoths I have trouble summarizing my thoughts to other people, I have no doubt in my mind my original comment is hard to read because I can't write about my thoughts easily. I'll probably delete it in like three years because I reread it after someone else replied to it and thought it was stupid or something like that.

[@AgeAgeAge]

Nuanced game design discussion, hell yeah. Good vid

[@AgeAgeAge]

Reminds me of Hotline Miami 1 vs. 2 and how going into HM2 with a melee focused HM1 mindset just leads to dying to offscreen enemies in a frustrating and unpredictable way. But if you adjust your mindset to dying repeatedly in order to scope out the area and route an S-rank route the game totally flips on its head and becomes this fantastic unpredictable puzzle box with gameplay unlike anything else I've played.

[@smashers6971]

Pikmin 4’s biggest problem imo is that it’s kind of overbloated? Like it tries to hit all the right points to being the ultimate pikmin game but it ends up way too much. It’s really evident in the post game where they just repeat the Louie plot from 3 for fanservice instead of anything meaningful.

[@smashers6971]

Hell to explain further, Pikmin 4 really sidelined the Leafling plot when it should’ve gotten more focus in the narrative instead of cheap fanservice if that makes sense.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

The plot and timeline of Pikmin is really interesting because it's the classic Nintendo thing where they tease a lot of lore and worldbuilding while never capitalizing on it as much as they could, as also seen with Splatoon. Took them this long to do a fully-fledged house level, after all. I'm personally a fan of Louie's inclusion, considering 3 teased he stayed on the planet, before 3 Deluxe stated he was with Olimar the whole time. Him showing up in 4 feels like a continuation of 3's original vision, just with a new reasoning to keep consistent with Deluxe. My deeper issues with the story lies moreso in the changing of the timeline... Finally, I'm just amazed that Pikmin 4's story and themes are about the never-ending bond between humanity and their dogs

[@smashers6971]

@@Pikmanfan2002 I think Louie’s inclusion is fine as well (Hell this was the game that really made me look back and realize that he’s just as deep of a character as Olimar) but I don’t think he should’ve been the main antagonist, I do think Pikmin 4 being a rebooted timeline does justify his actions way more (Unlike Pikmin 2 he doesn’t have Olimar and the ship to reign him in, and when he stayed behind in that game he got captured by a giant spider and was used as a living battery for it.) However my issue is that like I said it’s just repeating 3’s story bits with him but removing his main justification (He thought he was kiddnapped due to the Koppaites just leaving him infront of the ships controls while he was unconscious) and that the Leafling plot is sidelined even further because of it. In a perfect world Louie would’ve been a red herring with the games real main antagonist being the Sage leaf, like that character is perfect for a villain role to tie up the Leafling plotline.

[@TrueLadyEvilChan]

I want to add to this with me personally being a little annoyed at all the collectibles. I know it's part of Pikmin, but I do feel like there's just so much that I'm really just collecting for the sake of it? I dunno. There are so many copies of treasures, which I think are neat because it makes sets, I also feel like it's a case of them using this just to fit every corner of the map. Adding onto this, I really don't think they should have made every mode part of the main game. To me, it detracted from everything else, because they tried to fit it all. I don't agree with the opinion I've seen that the developers "put everything together seamlessly", but that's how I feel. Pikmin 4 does try a lot of what I'd almost accuse as nostalgia bait, but honestly it's the farthest of my problems with the game. Nostalgia can be fun after all; though I feel as if the game sees some of the nostalgic things as pure novelty, which again detracts from my experience and how much I believe the nostalgia factor is effective. My favorite use of the nostalgia "bait" is the Kingdom of Beasts, for it is a cute blend of two iconic caves from 2, while feeling new enough.

[@smashers6971]

@@TrueLadyEvilChan honestly I agree, this goes into how dungeons were kind of butchered, but you don’t get the same satisfaction of clearing them by getting an upgrade throughout most of them.

[@old_Voli_55]

Hi, i saw you're lethal mod, it's just insane

[@philosofictions]

Idk. Pikmin 4 was my first Pikmin game and I enjoyed it. I found it relaxing to collect everything. There’s a lot of challenge too, even though the game isn’t particularly hard. The other games seem stressful in comparison

[@AlmyTheAlien]

imonlyhereforpikmin mentioned. Pikmin Brainrot Gang assemble.

[@NatShulamoo]

Play Psychonauts 2!!🔥🔥 you will not regret it.

[@sayzar9474]

I’m not a hardcore pikmin fan and I think 3 might still be my favorite but I do think 4 was still really good even if it was too easy and the auto lock was infuriating sometimes.

[@Tudsamfa]

Logical next step of Pikmin gameplay: Just solve this travelling salesman problem. Why even buy the game if executing a route successfully is practically guaranteed and the true enjoyment is routing, you could just theorize the optimal route from internet sources.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Absolutely true, you could also watch Portal 2 gameplay, pause the video, and try to solve it yourself. Being able to look up the best answer has never stopped a good thinking problem from being a good thinking problem. If you’re interested in theorizing the best solution without ever turning on the game, then you’re still successfully having fun with the game’s challenge lol

[@Tudsamfa]

@@Pikmanfan2002 They found a way to appeal to the large demographic of Pikmin fans who never buy Pikmin games. Should also double as an effective anti-piracy measure.

[@autismandgaming4532]

The difficulty in Pikmin 4 comes in getting better at it

[@angrymoths]

If only that was unique to Pikmin 4...

[@ThatGuy89002]

do you plan on checking Pikmin 4 replucked? it's a pretty good mod

[@angrymoths]

This game tells me to "Dandori" so much for a game that doesn't natively get me in a Dandori flowstate. Any game can be optimized for time, that doesn't make it fun. Pikmin 4 doubles down on that without the texture that makes doing so rewarding or incentivized besides "being the thing to do" much like TotK's ultrahand in terms of its needed applications being underwhelming and more about "making your own fun". Others have mentioned this, but it's true. It's meaningless. For me, Pikmin 1 still represents that design identity and balance best and purest of all. The time has hard limits that add genuine urgency and context to the game. The games gets you to "Dandori" out of neccessity, because dead pikmin = more time growing your hoard = less time for progressing = more wasted days and time = overall bad bc you only have a month as a HARD limit (even if it's generous). Stakes create tension, and tension creates a need for Dandori. Pikmin 4 just wants you to Dandori bc it's fun, but without a reason besides progression. All the prev. Games do a better job then P4. Pikmin 4orced, more like. Sorry to be hard, but it's true.

[@Fungo4]

I don't really understand the argument here. Pikmin 4 is good for routing ok, but then isn't Pikmin 1 just better?

[@Pikmanfan2002]

“It doesn’t matter how well you execute it, a bad route is a bad route. So then, what does a good route look like?” Pikmin 4’s routing focus lets the game be designed like a puzzle where you, the player, are tasked with finding a viable solution to that question. It’s how you beat the game in fewer days. And instead of repeating the same slow route just to do it slightly faster, improving in both 1 and 4 involves figuring out which route is faster. Only once you’ve reached the fastest route does execution truly matter, so why not make the challenge about finding the fastest route? Neither game has an inherently better or worse philosophy, but the routing focus lets Pikmin 4 have a much more rapid and in-depth route improvement process, which can be a massive positive compared to the first game. A greater number of simpler options leads to more routing opportunities, and removing the execution just cuts out the middleman of these decisions

[@Fungo4]

@@Pikmanfan2002 Precisely. That argument suggests pretty cleanly that the first game IS better.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

@@Fungo4 It’s only better if you’re more interested in the execution than the routing. As someone who adores the routing, I like the massively simplified execution. By not having overly complicated steps, you don’t need to worry about how to go about the challenge, you only need to focus on the challenge itself. Here, lowering the skill ceiling focuses the gameplay

[@Fungo4]

@@Pikmanfan2002 It's better if you're interested in the execution at all, regardless of whether it's more or less than the routing. What your'e saying only makes sense if you hate the execution entirely and prefer it removed, which I don't think is the case.

[@Pikmanfan2002]

Using a bomb rock in Pikmin 3 and 4 is as simple as throwing the bomb at the enemy, letting you instantly see the ramifications of the decision. The execution is fun because it’s a vessel to try out the route in real-time, to see what efficiencies occur right then and there from the physical decision you made. You had an idea, you executed the idea, and you got to see if it worked or not. With the more complicated and in-depth execution of 1, you can’t just try out ideas once you have them. You have to learn where and when to throw bomb rocks in order to kill the enemy effectively. You made the same level of decision, but spent much more time and effort learning how to do it. This slows the improvement process down significantly.

[@User-d6l6t]

Easy Pikmin 2

[@montyturner6511]

I enjoy the game,but I wish it could've been better.

[@almeidachannel7121]

Nice Video ! Sub & Big Like ! And Love Tekken Games !

[@Sloptopia]

midmin 4