Nobbel Reacts to: Shattered Legacies - Patch 9.2 Spoilers

[@Styder111]

"The Jailer is deceptively cunning." Also the Jailer: I'mma release the ONLY person who knows my evil plan intimately.

[@tim6360]

Or DOES she even know his play? Maybe he is SO deceptively cunning that she only THINKS she knows his plan. He's really going bind us all with cookies, treats, and the most effective Care Bear Stare in the history of the universe! ELE - Everybody Love Everybody! (.........or, um, NOT) :-) I'm just waiting for the continuation of the story line into some "xyz First One actually played with reality and this whole 20 year World of Warcraft episode has actually been all in your head....welcome to the REAL universe" storyline to unfold. I mean, Thanos crossed over into WoW Lore, Sylvanas is calling the world a prison and stating that we have no choice, why not just take it all the way back to the Matrix plot line, am I right?

[@rickroll9705]

i mena yall thought LK letting the only people that coudl kill him walk into his very throne after killing unvaluable aspects of his army such as sindragosa was a great story telling.

[@Styder111]

@@rickroll9705 the LK killed us all... It was Tyrion and the Light that saved us. So yes, I do think that was good story telling.

[@meiru2453]

Perhaps he expected her to be killed on spot

[@kmlop5]

Could be like Thanos he always gets power but somehow leaves a way to be defeated all the time

[@Aeros589]

I'm just blown away that Baine got up from that spot

[@wertyupanoptikus9787]

Yeah, no one is talking about that fact of transcendental significance. How could someone miss that?

[@vteccomplex]

Notice, he was the first to dip out of the cutscene. He's going right back there.

[@deansheets]

Beat me to it 🤣

[@briancrow736]

Jailer was right about Baine being worthless…

[@cleews_]

His Apple Watch reminded him to Stand.

[@terry9819]

I was a bit surprised by Uther saying her wound runs so much deeper than his. His connection to and betrayal by Arthas was surely stronger and deeper. Maybe he's just talking about the physical/spiritual wound.

[@Xiaara_Quala]

Think so. After all even though Uther was betrayed and connected to Arthas. He was never raised back to do horrible things. He simply moved on to the Shadowlands where his troubles began. But he didn't do anything inexcusable. While Sylvanas did horrible things.

[@bunnyrabi]

@@Xiaara_Quala exactly, you got it.

[@RumandCocaine]

Or bad writing

[@JacksonJinn]

In my mind it's that Sylvanas has been directly manipulated and lied to for far longer. She went so far, betrayed so much of her old cause, believing it the path she needed to walk. She believed the ends justified the means so strongly that she went to that extreme, and the divide between who she was before she started the path and after is so much deeper than Uther's own divide (I.E. before he was killed and after.) Uther may have had a far more personal connection to his _killer,_ but comparing the wounds left by their _manipulator_ is so much different.

[@SarmonOflynn]

Uther wasnt used and abused by arthas for years, transformed into a wraith to tear apart his own kingdom. He also wasnt shown that the only place waiting for him after death was damnation.

[@Styder111]

There's something unsettling of Ranger General Sylvanas having normal human eyes rather than glowing elf eyes

[@lindadelorme5117]

YES!!! It bothers me too.

[@anulire]

You do know, blood elves/high elves are devolved Quel'dorei (exiled Highborne) who was mating like rabbots with humans last 10 000 years?

[@tri1937]

i can’t tel if it’s that or something else. her eyes seem so small in comparison to her face. maybe i haven’t seen wow elves in a while?

[@lindadelorme5117]

​@@tri1937 the animation for her is all messed up...doesn't really look like her...more like a PiXAR version of her

[@lindadelorme5117]

@@anulire Silvermoon isn't exactly teeming with Human so I don't know where you get that idea from...you're Alliance aren't you...likely Night Elf if I am reading your disdain correctly

[@FastFoodVicar]

Lmao that sylvanas is basically the voice of the fanbase reacting to all of the banshee sylvanas' desicions :D

[@aramere3650]

Yeah, but hopefully she’s added nuance and not a replacement

[@raduoltean4468]

And the banshee is blizzard

[@Subject_Keter]

Especially after what Blizzard did, I wouldnt even TRY to clean that mess up.

[@SimplyVanis]

@@aramere3650 My guess is that the Ranger general became the dominant personality of Sylvanas when their souls merged. So IMO Sylvanas as we knew her, died and now there is the old Ranger General in her place, but with the memories Sylvanas did.

[@MasterWooPing]

*Baine

[@ReikaLady]

I laughed my ass off at "deceptively cunning". Then again Uther never struck me as terribly intelligent. Based off her discussions with Anduin the Banshee apparently thought they were going to reset reality to something better.

[@andrewshandle]

"So the Jailer told me that he didn't want everyone to serve him...then he said he did." "Did he _actually_ say that he didn't want people to serve him, Sylvanas?" "Well, no...but I just assumed....listen, he's deceptively cunning alright?!?!?"

[@ReikaLady]

@@andrewshandle For all that the Jailer is one of the most boring WoW villains ever, he's a surprisingly honest one.

[@JazzySlayer]

Ranged general: her crimes are unforgivable Uther: Yes *roll the credits*

[@VChong1991]

WELL WELL WELL IF IT ISNT THE CONSEQUENCES OF MY ACTIONS! WHATS UP?? WHATS UP!? /fisticuffs

[@maxineviolet]

He’s walking her from denial to acceptance which is one of the most crucial steps in any healing process like trauma or addiction. He is not forcing her to understand, he’s guiding her to understand herself. To see what SHE has done, and what she needs to do now.

[@aidanfedorochko3728]

I do like how the “Ranger General” Aspect is in denial that she is the Banshee. It does reflect this whole “shattered soul” well. It also doesn’t mean the Ranger General is a purely good side of Sylvanas. Also where the hell is Nathanos? It’s been a while since he has been reference or seen and given she is flipping sides I am curious where he is.

[@darth-imperius]

Speaking of Nathanos, how did he originally die? Did he get stabbed by Frostmourne, too? If so, they'll probably do a "split soul" thing - or was he always an a**hole?

[@aidanfedorochko3728]

@@darth-imperius he always had a very cocky personality and had to put up with snobby elves (he also was knocking up with one at the same time) which had some effect on how he interacted. He was killed allegedly by the forces of Arthas so he did not suffer the same wounded soul as others did.

[@shoobror8291]

@@aidanfedorochko3728 Nah he was killed by us in vanilla wow, just some random quest hahaha

[@protomimic]

@@darth-imperius he was killed by Arthas's forces and turned undead then sylvanas finds him and helps him regain his mind then they kill nathanos's cousin and take his flesh for Nathanos to use for his body which is how he went from mangled undead to nice body like Sylvanas

[@ArlongSun]

@@darth-imperius He was always a cocky a-hole. He died against undead mobs in the Eastern Plagueland. We player characters defeated him as Scourage undead at Marris Steed, but the just played hunter dead. After that, Sylvanas found him, restored his memories, and he became the Hunter trainer in the Undercity as Forsaken. Not happy with his falling apart body, Sylvanas captured Nathanos' look-a-like cousin, and put Nathanos' soul into a "fresh body".

[@remyberry4582]

Can we also just take a moment to appreciate Patty’s voice acting in this cinematic?

[@noblecore9844]

Outstanding performance!

[@stormstrider1990]

I've only heard her as the Banshee Queen so far, so this must be her normal voice.

[@pepegpala]

no we cant, stop farming likes

[@remyberry4582]

@@pepegpala Oh dear, I see the trolls are coming out from under their bridges.

[@Georgiana216]

I was waiting on someone to also note her voice acting

[@Styder111]

The first time I saw Uther's split soul, I didn't initially think it was Frostmourne who split it but rather the Light who saves a part of his soul. Sylvanas having her soul split makes less sense to me. Uther's soul was fractured, where one goes off to Bastion and the other is absorbed by Frostmourne. Where did the 2 parts of Sylvanas' soul go? Part of it stayed in the banshee and the other, to the Jailer? How? So does that mean every single person Arthas killed with Frostmourne had their souls split as well?

[@Zork787]

In the quest where we save the part of uthers soul in torghast, you can find soul fragments for lanathel and arthas' father among others along side uthers, so yes, every soul fractured and absorbed by frosmorne eventually went to the jailer at some point

[@Ash-qd2ke]

Not all but some. Some are split, others are consumed. In torghast we saw this souls of Anasterian, Terenas, Lanathel, Paladins, and Magisters

[@dowzy8498]

maybe exceptional strong Souls get Split cuz the blade cant take them entirely. One Part of uthers soul was saved by the light. No light for silvanas Soul.

[@Ash-qd2ke]

@@dowzy8498 terrifying thing about the Ranger General was after she died, she woke up to the Banshee Queen “tormenting” her. All those years…her soul was in stasis. Perhaps even the others too

[@stevenharper7118]

The Frostmourne was directly linked to Torghast all the souls directly taken by Frostmourne where actually stored in a pocket reality that belonged to Torghast. The Helm of Domination also stored a part of the soul in a pocket reality that belonged to Torghast it allowed the Jailer to channel his essence and partially control the Lich King and eventually Arthas as well it was like a co-op pilot system kind of like in the movie Pacific Rim, where the Jailer was always player 2 in this case we just never see that in reality we just see the LK / Arthas doing the things we see.

[@Fernesh07]

16:49 to 17:15 I couldn't agree more with everything you just said. Why did they even make her warchief, made her looking all cool and bad-ass in the Legion and BfA opening cinematic, if their plan was to just re-do a "breaking free of her manipulator ". Everybody expected and wanted and storyline where she was indeed "morally grey", where the least trustworthy person in Azeroth was now in charge of an entire faction, and see how that would unfold. Turns out it was just a waste of time, because apparently, becoming warchief was never the focus of her story...

[@KingofAwesomness14]

yea, vol'jin just should have kept the role.

[@kolemarren8211]

When you word it that way I can’t help but think they didn’t have a plan at all.

[@superblackcat13]

I guess my major problem as a Forsaken fan is, I’m just….confused I guess and feel stuck in a weird position. Blizz essentially is saying the character we’ve fell in love with for the past 2 decades was the dark half and is more or less gone as the good half the old ranger general that we saw for like a few missions in WC3 has taken over, but still has the memories of the banshee queen. From what we’ve seen she already hates what her dark half has done and I can only imagine how she’ll feel about the Forsaken now and what the banshee queen turned them into etc. Lol it’s like being in a relationship with someone who you didn’t know had amnesia and a decade later they remember who they were, but at the same time remember all that they’ve currently done and say “yah that’s not me, I don’t like what I did or who I was, when I couldn’t remember who I was previously” How exactly….do you react to that?

[@ShiningMario]

I feel you, brother. I've played horde since late BC. I stopped at the end of BFA, I just couldn't take the disrespect, and blatant terrible writing of the characters I once, nay, still love. I really wish they had ended the story of past characters being villains or heroes in Legion. The *only* way I can accept the "Shattered Sylvanas" story, is that she became truly shattered (losing her true, good half) at the end of Wrath. Their "Deal" separating the two. Except even this is hard to believe, considering you see moments of good in Sylvanas past Wrath. Her attempting to deal with Garrosh, saving the Horde in Legion and leading a charge against the Legion. Not to mention her Mists of Pandaria content. It all feels like they should have made her a sleeper agent. Imagine, if Sylvanas at the end of Legion starts screaming to people "Death is coming!" and, the Jailer flips a switch, and we get the Sylvanas we saw in BFA, except no deception. You'd create pity for her being used, it being clear what the story is leading to (Yet hyping it up) and giving Forsaken players a reason to feel pride. I haven't felt true Horde pride, or even pride in Warcraft, since Legion. Saurfang did great, and stoked a flame, yet it couldn't overpower the terrible taste in my mouth.

[@MeTakingAStand]

Ehh, not completely though. They're saying that the Sylvanas that seemingly just flipped out of nowhere was only a portion of who she completely is. It sort of gives a little plausible deniability for the inconsistencies in her character, where sometimes she's cold and calculating and other times she's sympathetic. I'm not a huge fan of the way they decided to write Sylvanas' character from BFA onwards. It feels a lot like they tried to mulligan the Garrosh storyline.

[@Pewafamath]

Mission object is the same, listen to the intro for forsaken for refresher.

[@superblackcat13]

@@MeTakingAStand I guess the major problem here is, it can work don’t get me wrong buuuuut they should of built this up loooong ago, for it to be more believable or just not come off as “y’all came up with this within like the last 5 minutes didn’t you regarding uther/ Sylvanas” Maybe show throughout WoW Sylvanas switching between red and blue eyes to show she’s wrestling with herself I guess and at some point (maybe wrath) the pact she made after he suicide unknowingly cost her light side that tried to hold her back from being beyond pragmatic.

[@superblackcat13]

@@ShiningMario I honestly believe BFA ruined many things Horde and Alliance alike, Horde are willing to jump into war at the drop of a hat, Saurfang is willing to betray us all for his personal honor, and refused to even leave when we tried to save him. Alliance comes off as weak, and players are pissed that they’re clearly being gimped and forced to hold back in order to keep the story somewhat plausible. Etc the list goes on. Legion really was a good stopping point for things.

[@maoz2743]

Baine is the only one spitting facts on this cutscene

[@aerienix]

Can’t blame him

[@bamsbeyrek9728]

I saw this exact comment in all Shattered Legacies breakdown videos. Did you type them all ? One channel isn't enough ? :D I just wonder these things. some of them saying "spitting facts & fire".

[@maoz2743]

@@bamsbeyrek9728 naah i only have one channel but i guess a lot ppl have the same opinion of not letting a genocidal person get away with only a talk to because... "The voices made her do it", that ain't standing in court

[@MasterWooPing]

@@bamsbeyrek9728 Nope they just all copying WowPlatium Twitter tweets for likes

[@bamsbeyrek9728]

@@MasterWooPing It's obvious that it comes from somewhere even though if you don't follow those people, because it can't be a coincidence in which everyone thinks the same effing phrase to comment right ? I guess the likes will come even though everyone knows it's a copy-pasta because you know, "if clichés weren't good, they wouldn't be clichés".

[@beastmaster0934]

I feel like they are using Shadowlands to retcon literally every single thing that happened before. At least with past retcons, it was with stuff that was mostly unknown and/or relatively minor (origins of the night elves, all the life descended from some kind of ancient, etc.). But this expansion just throws a whole bunch of bullshit at us and expects us to be ok with it

[@Obelion_]

retconing better stories, making them worse in the process, to make the current one make some sense. its just wrong.

[@Subject_Keter]

Even that god forsaken Fallout Equestria didnt make that big of a mess.

[@DsiakMondala]

@@Subject_Keter Based twilly

[@brossjackson]

Sylvanas emerges from her Coma: “I am willing to accept that I ordered the burning of Teldrassil, and to face the consequences” The others: “ And also that you willingly slept with Nathanos?” Sylvanas: Never!! (Retreats back into her coma)

[@Subject_Keter]

Fucking lol

[@Subject_Keter]

@Joost Merkens I feel like in a Alternate Reality if she knew the Scrouge was coming. Slyvanus would of did everything to save her People BUT Never the truly horrorific stuff, sticking to Plague Bombs after her forces retreated or a dead man zone full of gas that slows or posions the undead.

[@SewardWriter]

Hey, Nathanos is a snack. A bitter, poisoned snack that will completely destroy your life, but a snack nonetheless.

[@dtulip1]

You know there's a problem when Nobbels passion is missing while trying to talk about this

[@alonsogonzalez7539]

TBH at this point I actually believe the "deceptively cunning" part is that the Jailer just gives people enough rope to hang themselves as it were. His cunning nature is all about identifying who is vulnerable enough to do the bare minimum to manipulate. He's less of a master manipulator, and more of a guy that affirms what you already believe. "Life is not fair, existence is a prison, all you believed is a lie, fate curses us all" All he does is says "you're right, join me and we can change that." And you kinda want to believe him because unlike you, he actually has the power to change things.

[@KingofAwesomness14]

this is more credit the blizzard deserves. good take.

[@TheHorreK2]

This "redemption" feels so out of place, i hope i am not the only one Also the jailor is the perfect example of "show, dont tell" we keep getting told how cunning, evil etc the jailor is but we see none of it, he is just this big muppet with blizzard telling us hes bad

[@5l0wp0k3]

Yeah. Also it's quite obvious that he is a pure evil guy, hence he oversees a whole zone as a torture dungeon. I just can't grasp how anyone is trying to tell us that it's somewhat shocking that the jailor is the evildude.

[@bamsbeyrek9728]

Firstly, you gotta understand this isn't a redemption story, that's simply a story of 2 fractures of a soul both incapable of accepting each other. Jailer basicly jailed her conscience part and feeded her vengeance part. Sylvanas wasn't aware that her feeling empty was fault of Jailer. She tried to fill that void coming from missing her part of soul with vengeance and clarity of purpose, which led her to what she has become at the end.

[@5l0wp0k3]

@@bamsbeyrek9728 Stop defending bad writing and making up reasons for their nonsense.

[@bamsbeyrek9728]

@@5l0wp0k3 Learn to understand what you hear and read. Then feel the right to talk to other people, bye.

[@Subject_Keter]

@@bamsbeyrek9728 I am sorry but if Blizzard put more care into the Story it "might" make sense but THIS? This is worst thrn Garrosh and Garrosh didnt regret anything cuz unlike the dark lady, he knew he was a dick and would be a dick till he died.

[@yoandez300]

She made her choice ! She chose the eternal damnation path. In BfA we clearly see that she turned her back on her people, she plagued the Undercity and then said that the Horde is nothing. When you finished the loyalist ark, she tells that the Forsaken still cling on hope as if it was a bad thing.

[@Subject_Keter]

I hope at the end of whatever path Blizz wrote that they have Slyv die: It abit explainable that the Ranger General wouldnt do ALL the fucked up shit thr Dark Lady did but it ultra killed the character. Unless they can merge them .... they effectively burn her and peed on the ashes.

[@vadeka]

@@Subject_Keter she might become a standalone character who runs around trying to fix what she caused. Her dying won't solve anything

[@Subject_Keter]

@@vadeka I am saying more in a General sense: Many are tired of the Dark Lady nonsense especially how the story wrapped around her, Just got to put her down even if it a "True" death slyvanus has managed to become the new Heart of Azeorth, the thing that vexs players and needs time to cool off.. but it permafrost OR Just a spa day, idk but she needs a break.

[@alephniguroth7105]

too bad they mixed her with a sylvanas that had nothing to do with it and now there is this weird grey area where she didnt had full agency and its not entirely her fault, organic character growth be damned.

[@linkzellda]

*Erandor Wintersun* But she is right! The Horde is nothing, they made their choice, and every time they supposed to learn their lesson they just back to do it again. The Horde are hypocrites that uses honor as some excuse to justify their bloodlush. The Horde committed crimes and refuse to learn their lesson and they keep making atrocity over and over again. So the Horde is nothing.

[@hxejacjiuyetheunpronouncea80]

The burning of Teldrassil was literally the one event that broke the entire lore.

[@midnightblue3285]

I hope they restore the world tree

[@jamesbaggett3655]

It was glorious.

[@FrostbiteDigital]

It was almost symbolic wouldn't you say?

[@Ash-qd2ke]

9:20 I think they just needed souls? Malfurion is exceptionally powerful so he would have a lot of anima, but Saurfang didn’t kill him so she needed to find another way to supply that anima. Again, because there is very very little reasoning behind her allegiance with the Jailer, it is hard to say for sure. IF Malfurion died, they would hold Teldrassil hostage, War would still happen but in a situation she could control it. As things happened, we see the Banshee Queen change strategy during the Fourth War, not in an effort to win but to cause as much death as possible.

[@remuscroitoriu4810]

That could be the case, but in a normal situation NE souls do not go to shadowlands, they remain as wisps in the forest, the only reason the NE she killed arrived in the shadowlands/maw is due to the intervention of Elune trying to save her sister's forest of Ardenweald. So this would imply that the jailor somehow knew that Elune would react that way, wich is scary if that is the case

[@ChitGetFit]

The visuals look like they’ve taken a step back

[@ChristinaI]

I think they are purposely using the Warcraft 3 style to bring things "full circle."

[@ChristinaI]

@L M The Saurfang defeat cinematic was peak IMO.

[@JacksonJinn]

The Jailer was "cunning" in the use of limited information and lies to manipulate. (This is me trying to work with the role, but hey.) With Uther, the Jailer effectively cut him off from knowing what was happening with Arthas. If the Jailer is the one who sent part of his soul up to Bastion, letting the other half be sealed in Frostmourne like the rest, then the Jailer was effectively sending a tainted soul who would otherwise be perfect for Bastion as though a wounded messenger. Maybe he had ways to convince the Forsworn beyond what we see after the fact, but Uther was trapped in the afterlife with knowledge that Arthas was running amuck, inspiring feelings of anguish, guilt, rage, and eventually a desire for retribution. That would only happen forgoing Bastion's Path, so in a sense, Uther was going to fall into a position to be taken advantage of. It's retroactive and only makes sense from this expac on, but it does work with what we can see. Especially since Frostmourne!Uther, instead, we saw got to see Arthas facing the heroes, the Light being able to conquer the Lich King through Tirion, and the triumph of life granting peace to both him and Arthas after the fact. We *know* Tirion wouldn't have gone down this path of retribution and anguish had he been able to see what was happening on the surface because we *watched* the fragment that got that closure and peace. If the Jailer hadn't sent Bastion!Uther to the Shadowlands when he did, the Forsworn might never have had knowledge (and particularly, knowledge they would definitively believe) to forgo the path. On the other side, Sylvanas was lied to, over and over and over again. The path she walked from her Banshee-fication in WC3 onward was more or less just her, but after falling off ICC and getting what we believe to be that close encounter with the Jailer, (which would be definitively after the Forsworn came into being so we can believe she never got to go through the Arbiter's process) she was effectively threatened with "When you die, you're going to be trapped for all eternity in oblivion and pain." Effectively threatening her to take extreme measures to avoid that seemingly eternal fate. Flashfoward to around Legion and somewhere around there, probably before, Sylvanas gets in contact with the Jailer and he makes her the deal with the devil. "Hey, I'm trapped in eternal hell too. Isn't that unfair? Come, join me, we can shatter the system of Death and grant all these souls the bliss and peace they deserve, but only if you can help me." Considering how far she'd gone to try and hold herself together by that point, she took the only path that seemed plausible; escape her fate after death by breaking death, not knowing that (in reality) she'd probably just go through the Arbiter and probably end up in Revendreth or even Bastion, tossing aside the pain of her history to serve with grace once more. So Sylvanas ends up drinking the kool-aid and believing that all life is worthless, that the souls she takes (including the infamous Teldrassil burning) will all ultimately be saved when she grants the Jailer enough power through those captured souls to break the cycle. In both cases, the Jailer is "deceptively cunning" because he gave just enough misinformation and withheld just enough truth to set both on the path that would let him lie his ass off to both of them. Arguably, it's the same way he's done with everyone else, Sire Denathrius included with promises of power and perfection. Could *all* of that have been portrayed better? Oh, fuck yeah, but we'd need to have outside knowledge of the Jailer going back to at least Sylvanas' fall off ICC, and we know that was just setting up building blocks to be made sense out of later. It _works_ as a whole, and I even agree that the Jailer doesn't really look like that much of a cunning mastermind *now,* but he really doesn't have to be. Everyone through 9.0/.1 followed him because they'd hitched their horse to his wagon and believed (through lies, and misinformation) that this was the only way they had left to them. That's all it is. The reason Anduin had to have Zovaal "assume direct control" is because his faith and knowledge leaves him immune to lies, misinformation and despair. Our good boi believes in us, our cause, and our power to right the wrongs of the world, so the Jailer really couldn't use him except as a direct pawn to be moved around the board like a puppet. And even then... Who knows. I thought this was obvious? Sylvanas has been terrified of death ever since ICC. We now know exactly why; because the Jailer made her believe she was going to get eternal damnation if she didn't shatter the afterlife. This doesn't take away her choices she made as the Banshee. She chose to try and save herself the only way she had in front of her, instead of talking with others or putting her faith in others.

[@straight2thepoint790]

Yes ty. someone that actually knows whats happening, and why. i dont get why so many people are confused, or think the lore is bad. or saying there isint any reason or cause for certain events. when in reality its all explained already. multiple times over. People are forgetting all of the lore from past expansions, and just assuming shadowlands makes no sense/therefor bad.

[@straight2thepoint790]

Even nobbel is guilty of this. in this very on video. about the lore, and world building. saying sylvanas had no reason to burn teldrasil. when in reality she had several. 1 to fuel the jailer, 2 to excalate the war, and fuel the jailer faster, and freeing more people sooner. its all clearly laid out.

[@spaceco1]

All storypoints aside. I do like the parallel they drew visually in this cutscene with Vol'Jin's death. Same soundtrack, some position of characters disappearing in a similar way.

[@Gebirges]

Going back from this point; there were some hints towards the Jailor here and there. The biggest one had to have been in Helheim where Helya took Sylvanas (possibly) to the Maw to get new intel from the Jailor. (First time since ICC?) We just didn't know what or who told her what. All we know is that he she had to dominate the big #1 Val'kyr. (And fuel the Maw in any way possible, so the Maw has more power to free the Jailor) The problem is that there hasn't been any name dropping of the Jailor ever up until the Shadowlands. Which is bad.

[@Varyaggaming]

I wouldn't relly on that much, my assumption still is Metzen never planned for a 'Jailer' being a thing and had other plans for Sylvanas and he himself with others planned her arc up until BfA's launch patch. After that, It was Deneuser burning the story threads Metzen made and pushing his own into the gushing wounds of Warcraft's story to force Jailer in there somewhere. I'm sure we would've gotten an explaining of what the Val'kyr thing was about, but still didnt. That said I doubt Metzen's story was any better, but Deneuser's so far is really bad and just like Metzen, plans things yearly and retcons things to make sense at the moment instead of rebuilding the lore from the ground up to make sense.

[@ryuzzakibsb]

@@Varyaggaming I would like to hear from Metzen himself what was his original plan for Sylvanas

[@ChaddyPatience]

Setting up the Windrunner sisters for that 10.0 arc!

[@siegwardinspirit]

Having a helf with human eyes makes her look like a cosplayer.

[@Lichdemonz]

3:30 It's crap like this that makes me GLAD I've been in ESO this past year. XD

[@IlHansenIl]

"Beyond life and deck" - Sylvanas 2021

[@lorenzowaeles5444]

The burning of teldrassil: this was a storyline they made before they even thought about the jailor and they are now trying to fit it in...´horribly

[@blbprime11]

What I don't like is how the motivations and reasons behind The Jailer are still kept hidden from us. In movies and even games the revelation behind the main antagonist near the end can be an amazing moment. But you can't do this for MMOs because...well it's been over a year since SL has launched. And movies last 2 and a half hours and decent dtory games can last between 10 to 20 hours. This is the equivalent of getting puzzle pieces for over a year but the puzzle is flipped so you only see the back part. Once we finally get the last piece we can flip it and get the complete picture. Until then we do not know what the picture looks like or could be like. All we have been doing is blindingly connecting peices because they "fit". Because of this build up for OVER A YEAR the payoff needs to be amazing, revelatory even. But my fear is that once it's revealed all of us will collectively go "Is that it??"

[@Subject_Keter]

What even worst is: You generally would want to seed the idea for any possible changes you would want to do so it could make sense but They barely did any of that. When they did it just busted through their Narrative creating holes as they had to "rewrite" the lore to fix their mistakes which made things even worst. You got the mystery to hook people but when your mystery shoot your dog and pees all over your face, most people aint staying to the end.

[@henrikhumle7255]

Need I remind you that Ion himself literally said that he doesn't give a toss about the story, and that the game is exclusively about you being the ultimate hero of the universe and defeating the bad guy? This is what happens when you've got no writers to actually write your story. It all becomes a two-dimensional mess. A half-decent writer with a bit of time and proper funding would be able to come up with some excuse that made at least some kind of sense, but that's not where they're at.

[@Subject_Keter]

@@henrikhumle7255 That would explain alot, I normally dont like looking at the inner workings but geez you can see the ripples of it.

[@Skollshorties]

I quite liked it more than I thought I did. I think many of us would've wanted Sylvanas' story told different or *TOLD* to us in general rather than behind mystery boxes. But it works well for what it is. I really just like that they drive home that others are not onboard with her. My biggest worry was having Thrall, Baine, Jaina, etc just forgive her on the spot. But so far that hasn't happened yet thankfully.

[@roetheboat1]

I think that the reception would have been a bit more positive if THIS had been the final cinematic of 9.1 instead of the one where she betrayed the Jailer. Sure, still have that betrayal cinematic in there at the end of the raid, but then have a questline right afterwards that ends with this cinematic showing her wrestling with her conscience.

[@magnuscarlsson9969]

Well the problem ain't the cinematics, they are pretty much always great; Great voice acting, nice animations etc. The problem is and have always been what comes in between, except in a few rare cases, the storytelling have been very inconsistent. At times they do a great job, others? Well they mostly leave us with a bunch of questions which may or may not be answered. Their dynamic storytelling really have to become better... Just adding in some simple quests here and there could be some sort of band-aid. Like for example; That sword... Couldn't they at least make some sort of quests sending us there for more updates on that situation. It would be fine if it was just some exposition one-two quests per patch, would had been a total of 10 or so quests by now, just informing us about what happends around there... We will probably see that sword used someplace, when most people probably forgot it, how the planet still orbits will however keep remaining a mystery box forever.

[@Colty95]

I feel like for the past 4 years everything "Will depend on where they go from here". Can't we just have a good story without having to wait and see where it goes?

[@Xiaara_Quala]

Yes and no. We could but we would need to get more down to earth villains and we can't because now that they ran out of old lore to create their expansions around they need to create new villains. However instead of slowly building them up over the past few expansions WoW wants to build them up and break them down in one expansion which creates.. well this.

[@Eprosis]

I think they need to start telling complete storylines in a single expansion. And never do the 5D chess hidden motives nonsense for three-four expansions in a row again -- it's been a total disaster.

[@SR-mm2ru]

They "kinda forgot" this doesn't explain any of the good sylvannas did post mortem. Or any of the moral choices she made for the forsaken. Not all of her actions were mustache twirlingly evil because of "muh jailor influence" as they'd suggest. This is crap writing of what used to be a complex character with a real arch into a villain. She lived the bad outcome of the hero's journey. She lived long enough to become the villain. Oh well. Into the trash it goes. Cubicle crawls for everyone!

[@rickroll9705]

what good she did post mortem? test palgue on human subjactes and enslave humans beneath undercity since 2004? lol

[@raver377]

her soul wasnt split into good and evil, it was split into a light and dark side, her dark side still had some good intentions, everything she did was for the "greater good" but the issue with the greater good is that it can justify any and all actions, kill a person? oh it was for the greater good!, kill a thousand people? well that sucks but it was for the greater good so its okay. the splitting of sylvanas's soul was more like removing her moral side, a person without morals could still try to do good and possibly even do actual good but without morals the good a person can do pales in comparison to the evil they are willing to and actively commiting to do good

[@jare3959]

It's weird that they went to all that trouble to show nuance in Anduin reaching her, only to do a 180 and go "jk the Banshee Queen has always been a monster"

[@Worgrunner]

@@jare3959 Except they didn't do or say that. They show that the part of Sylv frozen in time sees the Banshee Queen as a monster, but that they're fundamentally the same person. As Uther says, it doesn't split you into good and evil. The Banshee Queen is the Ranger General, just wounded and carrying on into a bleak future. I mean the whole story is how a person reckons with being a good person, a hero, who has gone on to do monstrously unforgivable things. I think a good real world analogy would be Marshal Petain, Admiral Darlan, or many of the senior French collaborators with the Germans who prior to World War 2 were seen as patriots and war heroes, but who ended up committing truly horrible crimes as members of the Vichy government. This is the sort of story you get if their younger selves could stand in judgement of them.

[@jare3959]

@@Worgrunner I hope this is true. I do see what you're saying. Honestly I've become kind of jaded. They haven't been stellar lately at nuance. Blunt & generalized tones could just be a byproduct of dealing in a realm that's, in the denizens' words, Eternal. I might just be feeling daunted by reconciling mortals dealing with macrocosmic scales. Also, I should remember that the Forsaken are still pretty isolated regardless of being in the Horde, so those sentiments about how much the Dark Lady has done for her people probably isn't very well known. At least not from any close perspective. Bad things do tend to eclipse the good. Ted Bundy saved a lot of lives while volunteering at a suicide hotline, but he's only remembered for being a monstrous serial killer. So I guess burning Teldrassil among other things can eclipse whatever honorable things she's done while a Banshee.

[@gasmanoo]

"No, no, no. You see, all those evil things that I´ve done ? That wasn´t me Sylvanas, that was my evil twin Silvaanus."

[@RealmRabbit]

Uther is the ghost of Sylvanas past, present and future! I didn't expect Blizzard's new cinematic to be their version of "A Christmas Carol" for the holidays! Good job, Blizz! That's the best you've done in a long time! Very fitting for the holiday season...

[@Romanthony2007]

Ah just what i have been waiting for! The great man himself reacting to this

[@ronsorage78]

I think an unsung talent is the voice of not only Uther but also KT, Mr Michael McConnohie. We all talk about Patty Mattson and rightly so but the amount of subdued pain and compassion he adds to this is actually quite masterful. He and Patty deserve a ton of praise for the work here.

[@samtemdo8]

The Nostalgia seeing Ranger General Sylvanas and Paladin Uther in an Elwynn Forest type backdrop is just nostalgic. That's old school Warcraft right there, that warm color palette.

[@IM4fLEX]

Those big elven houses in that map was one of my favourite map props.

[@Sanguiris]

I'm pretty sure that is the farm in Plaguelands ;p

[@IM4fLEX]

@@Sanguiris Im talking about the one where you collect moon stone kr some sort of key, Three in total to unlock the elven gate.

[@Sanguiris]

@@IM4fLEX I was talking about the original comment xd

[@zwojack7285]

Remember when everyone knew a redemption arc was coming and everyone was against it?

[@wtff]

Sylvanas: I'm responsible. I must face the consequences. Playerbase: So we're just going to forgive her and let her get away with it?!

[@skittlez13gurl]

No one in their right mind would forgive her but unfortunately she needs to be alive in order to find out what the Jailer is planning. But after that, I know Tyrande and Jaina will be on her ass.

[@Foretelling]

@@skittlez13gurl This is going to sound incredibly pessimistic of me, but... You don't know. All we can do is hope. I wouldn't trust the writers at Blizzard as far as I can throw them. This cinematic might be a step in the right direction, but one right does not make up for a thousand wrongs.

[@skittlez13gurl]

@@Foretelling absolutely, forgiveness isn’t on the table for Sylvanas. I don’t think they’ll kill her off though, but I have a feeling Tyrande will try to lol

[@decayeddivinity9916]

I'm just loving the fact that the mouths look great while they are speaking.

[@Gibsonex]

Maybe when she jumped off the tower that’s when the Jailer took her over. It would make more sense to be honest.

[@harris6062]

She's never been mind controlled by the jailer. The only time she was mind controlled was when she was enslaved by the lich king after Arthas killed her. She broke free in Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne and tried to kill Arthas. That's what she's talking about when she speaks of breaking free and then trying to shoot 'him' with an arrow. The fact there are so many people around right now who don't realise that those voicelines are referring to Arthas, rather than the Jailer, shows how poorly Blizzard is telling this story.

[@sninctbur3726]

@@harris6062 That voiceline hasn't been released yet. You are criticizing a story that hasn't even been told.

[@SleepySloth2705]

The Jailer edited as Dr Evil in the thumbnail was just too perfect 🤣🤣🤣😂😂

[@canyuxel]

Let me guess; this was also a part of Jailer's plan to mislead the heroes.

[@Lionwoman]

I really like that nice callback to the Voljin's Legion cinematic.

[@SwedetasticGames]

The Burning of Teldrasil could've been written as a tactical decision, if only after initial occupation and relocation of the inprisoned Night Elves; Teldrassil, Winterspring, Mount Hyjal, Ashenvale and even Darkshore are extremely strong and attuned locations for druidic magic, the world tree in particular, meaning that holding the region long term would've been completely unfeasable. So destroying it and weaking an entire species of your enemy physically, logistically, spiritually and magically is a brutally cold tactical move. The Undercity, while a great tactical chokepoint and defensive position to hold, would've been deemed much too costly to go to open war over, if the NElve's hadn't been genocided at Teldrasil. Much more likely would've been negotiations for abandonment of territory and diplomatic routes with the Horde in a massive position of strength over them.

[@vakalkas]

This way of doing things, speaks to the fact that not only does the, old and stowayed sylvanas, have to face her banshee self, but also the other way around as the two meld into one, and likely, creates a sylvanas that is near entirely a new person. a third "self" if you so will. looking forward to seeing it go down

[@Dantarn]

This was such a great cutscene for a character arc that's so terrible, we all were worried they'd turn Illidan into Kerrigan but they did it with Sylvanas instead

[@thinhvo3893]

Honestly Kerrigan was a much better character and story in starcraft 2 than currently anything in wow right now.

[@FancyTophatDude]

I mean, it's not even a character arc anymore. They just kinda went "well, everything Sylvanas ever did in WoW wasn't really her, this is a new character now, so nothing she did matters"

[@Kammithekiller]

@@FancyTophatDude thats not even close..the whole point of the cutscene is her accepting responsibility for what shes done instead of being in denial. I get that you may not like the story- but ...lol i dont even understand how you could come to the conclusion you came to unless you were just enraged and refusing to pay attention

[@NovaG0]

@@FancyTophatDude Actually it was her Ranger General side coming to accept that she and the banshee are the same person.

[@Subject_Keter]

Ironically Garrosh is laughing at this: He stood to his guns as he knew he was a dick but we are appose to believe miss freewill shouls be abit cleaner with her blame? Literally suck it up

[@jean-sebastienbisson7915]

I am amazed at how WoW dev's are shameless in retconning decades of lore and character development. This is so frustrating to and frankly so embarassing when you realize of uninspired they have been for the last few of years.

[@Subject_Keter]

If they wouls of stood in their corner it would be atleast understandable but like weirdos, they had to spread to seem more "worthy" by infecting the lore. I forget alot bit like the last biggest chance was with Odin and how it got sent away which fit with the Old Lore.

[@Subvaries]

Its technically not retconning, however they still did flush 20 years of character development down the toilet.

[@jean-sebastienbisson7915]

@@Subvaries it is retconning though. They went from 'Arthas consciously stole Sylvanas' whole soul out of spite for the trouble she gave him with the Soul Well, which was stored in Frostmourne' to 'the Jailer played 5D chess for millenia and specifically decided to steal that random High Elf whomst he didnt know at all's soul, keep its good part locked up and let her live in undeath with the evil part in a grand plan to make her serve him 'knowingly or not'. All of which was done via Arthas who in the end was just a mind-controlled pawn with no agency whatsoever and all of which makes Sylvanas not accountable for anything she did ever since WC3. Yeah I'd say it's a pretty big retroactive recontextualization of the Lore. I purposely omitted several other similaly retconned elements from WC3 because they are not directly related to Sylvanas herself.

[@aaakitsune]

This is what happens when they hire people based on representation instead of merrits, combined with fire'ing a ton of people to make maximum profit for the company. This wont get any better anytime soon.

[@mihaimoldo]

It's actually arrogance and hubris. Thinking they can write a better story than their predecessors. Meanwhile while they're nothing but hacks!

[@zerosiii]

What if Zovaal also had his soul fractured at some point (by the Primus for example), and the currently present Jailor is like the banshee Sylvanas... but the original Zovaal was a decent guy, could grab a bear with. And when we finally defeat him in 9.2, he'll get his whole soul back, and the Primus will be like "what you didn't think Sylvanas was the only one"

[@seanh1321]

I mean, you could say they did something kind of similar with him getting his Sigil back, and he is just the same asshole he's always been.

[@LucaLeRatt]

fuck that’d actually be a compelling story

[@alihorda]

that would be so cheap tbh, reminds me naruto when there is always some bigger bad guy in the background and the poor villain was controlled.. fuck that

[@Subject_Keter]

Can we just have a Bad Guy who stands proud saying "I am a dick! I love causing terror and breaking whoever got in my way! This is who I am and what are you going to do about it" Mortally grey my butt! Half of the villians couldnt even fill out a forum on why their deeds are anything but classic Evil.

[@vivianrexcroftch2999]

Zovaal is the ultimate wikipedia editor.

[@ZenFr0g]

So night elf players lost their capital city and starting zone that was, for many, their introduction to World of Warcraft that captured their love for the game... so that part of Sylvanas' soul could feel bad about the other part having torched it and killed most inside. Then they get force-fed this idea of "vengeance versus renewal" as if they're mutually exclusive concepts on top of Elune's big reveal making her as inept as any mortal who's working without all the information. And then they decide to whitewash "the Banshee" with the part of her soul that identifies as the "Ranger General", so all the Forsaken fans who were fans of the former lose out on that (even more than they have already) in addition to losing *their* capital city. It's like they're trying their hardest to uproot and kill the foundation of WoW and replace it with this attempt at a fantasy soap-opera so they can pat themselves on the back for "fixing" it.

[@kingkmtso5107]

Yeah stay mad lol

[@ZenFr0g]

I know I really shouldn't feed the troll with a reply, but... With people like you as the last bastion of WoW's crumbling community, it's little wonder people are leaving in droves.

[@jthrone7768]

I mean it was just night elves so it’s not a huge loss.

[@alephniguroth7105]

Forsaken and nelf fans got both shafted on the lore department this couple of expansions, worst of all nobody has anything good to show after this crapshow of a story, the forsaken are down two major characters from their alerady large roster, both lost their capital city and nelves got to be the punching bag again, elune is a joke now and they dont have any dignity left, the forsaken got calia but the comunity's answer is more polarized than 3d glasses. all in all its quite ugly and they are not interested on fixing these issues, theyre basically ducking their heads and trying to sweep teldrasill under the rug but we're having none of it. frankly its quite the shitshow.

[@iriswaldenburger2315]

Well at least NOW we know who that night elf next to Sylvanas is in the burning of teldrassil picture is.

[@wilarus4038]

you know when the lore guy asks "when has he been deceptively cunning?" you royally screwed up will say that the cinematic is beautiful but would love if it all was still a nzoth nightmare and besides that most the significant lore characters would be 100s of steps ahead of the story writers

[@Epicdps]

Cool little thing they did there with baine/thrall/jaina/bolvar fading from the scene while uther stayed, just like the legion cinematic when sylvanas was appointed warchief by vol'jin in orgrimmar

[@rocketdave2769]

I swear to God if they maker her the jailer of the damned like they did with Illidan and Sargaras

[@felmaster3534]

Dialogue indicates that she willingly stays in the Maw to look for Nathanos, which is still WoW's version of hell.

[@leedex]

These video are very good for a good “bed time story” to fall asleep to.

[@Ash-qd2ke]

I liked this cinematic. This is probably the best one they’ve done narratively in the mess of an expansion. I just hope we see more reflection from the complete Sylvanas, other than the Ranger General. Damn shame tho

[@YT-mp7ei]

Soul fracture doesn’t change a person. It’s just ranger general never lived through those moments, only got to see it in its entirety like looking at history. They were the same person but banshee were faced with many difficult choices and tragic reality in the wake of scourge and other crisis. Life events can change you dramatically and when you have to face the same you but from 20 years ago, everything looks different from a different perspective.

[@Kammithekiller]

Im guessing the "master manipulator" thing is because he's the reason that Arthas even exists, with denathruis' help too. So hes essentially created all of these actors (sylvie, possibly Devos in life, uther, heck even Guldan since burning legion was in part denathrius) to help him later on. now that ive typed it out i think Daddynathrius is like, way above him in cunning

[@Prismatic_Priming]

the thing thats frustrating is we have no idea why. they keep talking about his manipulations but like what did he have to offer everyone? how was sylvanus freedom on the table or everyone's freedom? from a player perspective it's sylvanus did something morally black to help the jailor accomplish....something.

[@Kammithekiller]

@@Prismatic_Priming I always just assumed his end goal was to end death and merge all of the “realms” (Slands/living reality/twisting nether) I guess uh… my love of mortal kombat lore is bleeding over. Either that or go full on SMT3 Musubi where everyone has their own reality (because of the emphasis on not having choice). Those are the only reasons I could assume anyone would go as far as she did and still feel right. I agree though- we need to know by now exactly what it is

[@shadowplayfx]

@@Kammithekiller Let's assume he wants to merge all of the realms together. Why? What is his personal goal as the main villain of the "saga lolxd"? Jailer being the "it was X all along" could be forgivable if he was a strong character with solid motivation and masterfully crafted story. He's, unfortunately, none of that.

[@Kammithekiller]

@@shadowplayfx Honestly Ijust an assumed end goal. He was the arbiter, and ate the new one for dinner, so he has lived every life thats passed through before she was disabled. Who knows what that collective knowledge showed him /shrug. With merged realms he could dominate existence and take power from whatever else is out there. who even knows. maybe hes just mad from dying billions and billions of times since he lives through each soul- maybe he wants ALL of them since there are realms that do not pass through the shadowlands, or our reality - like Elune and whatever her realm/reality is...Maybe he wants to eat Kerrigan and doesnt know what reality shes in :p

[@AikoPuppet]

Low key forgot Denathrius exists…oops!

[@AlexanderForsman]

Complete character assassination... Brought to you be the gang that thought "Before the Storm" was a good idea...

[@ScorpDK]

Did they seriously use Vol'jin's funeral music for Sylvanas waking up :V

[@Holyrelic1279]

man a year later and i still think thats one of the best thumbnails ever lol

[@m.h.w.weckseler]

The image I always had of Sylvanas was that she was a smart, no nonsense, leader who was not afraid to do what was needed, including walking over bodies to get to her goal. I liked that. Finally a bad-ass female that could pull it off and wasn't a victim. And now they are turning her into this poor emotional woman that was just a poor victim of the Jailor's manipulations. This is not the Sylvanas I was glad to get as a Horde Warchief.

[@aaakitsune]

Could have been worse. They could have retcon her into a fruitbowl.. Or perhaps that would have been easier to accept, lol.. xD

[@harris6062]

To be fair, if you'd been killed in a horrifically painful way while defending your homeland, then the next thing you know you are being tormented by visions of a woman who looks like you, only twisted and evil, committing horrific atrocities, including massacring thousands of innocent people which is something you were trying to prevent in your own homeland, you'd probably be a bit emotional. I think it's implied that the ranger-general soul fragment has felt like she's been tortured by the banshee's memories for quite a while, because of the line where she says "Why can I not escape this torment?".

[@Lerker2000]

It's not that he's "deceptively cunning" in that he is tricksy; it's that he specifically targets people who are broken and tells them HIS goals align with theirs. That is his deception; he lies to them about his goal and tells them it aligns with their own.

[@Froggeh92]

They finally managed to make Sylvanas a gray character. By mixing her thoroughly evil reality with her goody 2 shoes past. They mixed good and evil literally. Lmao. Cmon man

[@lodgin]

Couldn't help but notice that at 4:37, it's using the same camera work and music as when Vol'jin died

[@tuipotter8-ball280]

Well maybe we will witness the rebirth Elune was talking about earlier on. Maybe the tear has a part to play in this for sylvanus

[@Icepawthewolf]

like fully killing the banshee and just making her the ranger general she used to be again somehow? She still wishes to atone but the banshee half is just gone and dead and the Windrunners get their sister back?

[@tuipotter8-ball280]

@@Icepawthewolf yeah rebirth of sylvanus and maybe the rebirth of a zone…. I’d like to see the windrunner sisters make a return. If blizz writes this properly. This could be the start of something good.

[@cleews_]

I'm just watching to see how deep Nobbel's frown get as the cinematic progresses...

[@xMissInsanityx3]

I started wow in my early teens and chose to play forsaken. And the Banshee Queen is the character I fell in love with. Her pain was the same as the forsaken ones. Her anger was BECAUSE of Arthas and what he did to her. THAT shaped the character we knew and love. And now it feels like nothing matters, the forsaken don't matter, the connection she had with them, everything. I don't really like the RG version with forced redemtion. Heck, wheres the Sylvanas from the bfa cinematic? I was excited to see HER. And not the shit they pull off now. As if "the Banshee was NEVER herself! It was all the jailer". As if Sylvanas did only bad things as banshee and had no feelings but anger. What about the times where she gets her necklace back qnd remembers her sister? What about that time when she reconnected with Vereesa? She showed other feelings than anger. And IF her personality WAS split and the RG self was hidden all the time then she wouldn't have felt anything for her sisters, right? The split soul thing is such bullshit. She was always her full self. The times with her sisters show this. It all feels like her "true self" hates everything about the banshee. As if these are two complete different characters.. It kinda hurts whats going on...

[@abdullahal-asmari5847]

Thats not the meaning of the cinematic. These are two different Ranger generals, the one who died that day and the one who got resurrected. The one you fell in love with is the one that got resurrected. Nothing will be forgiven because if she was resurrected fully as a banshee nothing would change. I hope this clears it up.

[@BlasphemousCrow]

Sylvanas is "the only one who knows his plan," except obviously not, since she shot an arrow at him when he started talking about making everyone serve.

[@ThePersmo]

Wasn't it eastablished that Sylvanas wanted as many people killed as possible to send more anima to the Shadowlands? That would mean that both the burning of Teldrassil and the attack on Lordaeron would serve that purpose.

[@holyflygon]

Sure but we all know burning of the tree wasn’t the plan… it was a last second decision after she got emotional.

[@Anuojat]

"See guys, now her actions and choice words make total sense!" If only the wow writers could take the knee and garner respect the same way...

[@TheScarecrow78]

It is cool to see her as her original self. I've never cared for the "Banshee Queen" character. Sylvanas the "Ranger General" is really cool.

[@DemonMaluMintus]

YES

[@feltonfolder420]

Kinda curious as to how this will effect nathanos. Will he see her as sylvanas (pre undead) or sylvanas (undead and jailer tool) and how that will effect him and his loyalty. I am also curious about if some of pre undead sylvanas influenced undead sylvanas while she was leader of the forsaken.

[@Chase4478]

Hi Nobbel! I was thinking.... Things could be more interesting and make more sense if Greymane would have made discoveries in Legion about the split souls in sidequests. I mean he fought her for the spooky lantern and nothing else came from it. They could have left hints building into BFA and at the start when she goes burning of Teldrassil crazy he calls her out and we go from there. Also... This means The Banshee Queen killed his son and Sylvanas had nothing to do with it? Why does Greymane have nothing to do with this since his story pretty much intertwines with her madness as the Banshee Queen? So much more could've been done to make this make sense ☹️

[@Worgrunner]

Well, they've left hints about this sort of thing with literally all undead from the days fo vanilla WoW. The Forsaken, the Death Knights, all demonstrate that what was done to them leaves them changed and damaged. They still have free will, and they still have their own moralities and feelings, but they're definitely a bit twisted by the experience. Also, no, Sylvanas killed Greymane's son. Sylvanas is the Banshee Queen.

[@MortalWombatI]

Just imagine every time Banshee Sylvanas says “BURN IT” it’s just Palpatine saying “DEWIT.” I gotta laugh to keep from scowling.

[@violetmontgomery5627]

So.. Zovaal killed Sylvanas. The one we've known since at least start of Cataclysm. Doesn't this also mean the Forsaken as a race Identity ARE wrong and monsters? It just killed all nuance

[@raver377]

zovaal didnt kill sylvanas

[@violetmontgomery5627]

@@raver377 she's not there anymore. Ranger General is. The character we knew as Sylvanas is gone. There is "a" Sylvanas now

[@raver377]

@@violetmontgomery5627 i mean spoiler warning: from the other cutscenes or voiceovers it seems more like the sylvanas we knew and well lets call her ranger generall got merged rather then the ranger generall taking over now, i mean that was the whole point of her soul thingy, she was split into before and now shes not anymore

[@justin11678]

This just feels like another case of Kael'Thas story with the whole a million choices that lead to hell scenario.

[@gruntmasterbroadcast]

I won't lie the idea of Sylvanas, a telling story behind the inner conflict between her Ranger General side and her new self as the Banshee Queen could have amazing story potential in the right hands, heck had Blizzard told much of wow's story on the same writing quality as ffxiv I imagine we could have had a genuinely compelling tale about the inner conflict of Sylvanas.... But then Blizzard kinda just... dropped the entire BFA/SL storyline down a flight of stairs while also shooting themselves in the foot while also swallowing Frostmourne while doing a one legged russian dance...

[@hullzor970]

There is retconning but its not only a shadowlands thing to use soulsplitting in the story; Varian Wrynn had a split soul, his other half had partial power from Lo'gosh spirit. The splitting sword was to represent his souls duality where his knowledge and courage were united.

[@Spippie_Sugarfuse]

This Cinematic just makes me feel like bfa/Shadowlands could have been a good story arc had it been set up as a established plot (hints about the jailer shadowlands etc) let breathe and explored more (intentions, and perspectives) and have more of it easily accessible to more people then just those willing to take time and money to read a novel. It makes me hope that the plot isnt irredeemable (ha ironic)

[@nickmessner700]

I liken it to watching Marvel's Infinity War but if the entire MCU never mentioned Thanos or the infinity stones. It honestly doesn't matter how cool a villain is (not the I think the Jailer is particularly impressive) or how interesting the set pieces are story are, you still need to tell us who they are and why they matter if you expect us to care. It seems like they're kind of figuring that out and trying to build it backwards, explaining things right before the climax, but I think it's gonna be too little too late. Hopefully they learn from it.

[@diode_wow]

Thing is, Blizz keeps their stories expansion long, or patch long in some cases, they want us to believe that the Jailer has had his hands in everything from the beginning but barely anything resembling the Shadolands was mentioned throughout WoW (that I recall). The ONLY game long story they're sprinkling throughout is the Nethrazim because we have been against them since the early days, we have found their pressence or influence all across expansions but they're never taken anywhere, they're just there so you go: "Oh shit, so that's what this was!" a few xpacs down the line.

[@Spippie_Sugarfuse]

@@nickmessner700 Hopefully, until then I'll watch from the subless sidelines x3

[@Spippie_Sugarfuse]

@@diode_wow Yeah, it's a bit hard to keep a continuous narrative if there is such long gaps in between patcches/expansions, and it feels like a villain of the year story

[@diode_wow]

@@Spippie_Sugarfuse I really hate to do this, but it's the other game I've been playing on regularly, so apologies. FF14 came out in 2010 and there people met the Ascians, they are basically the Nethrazim in WoW. Otherworldy beings that plot and manipulate different characters throughout the game's story. They're still the main bad guys, even going from expansion to expansion up to Endwalker. So you can definitely keep a story going long term. I think of FF14 as a novel with different chapters on the story, while WoW is more of an anthology collection with things happening in the world and sometimes tying to each other, but basically every patch/expansion is disconnected from the previous.

[@Anuojat]

Also goddamn it all i just realized it has been 18 years since she turned in wc3. ...man does anyone else feel old?

[@filipfenix]

Blizzard retconning THE ENTIRE FORSAKEN LORE AND RACE . Thanks .

[@preds43]

?

[@kaneslives]

How?

[@lausu7784]

This hit home alittle hard. As a his conversation is almost the excat same i heard when i talked to a advisor about heavy drug abuse. You see some other sell sex for drugs, steal, Hurt people you love and only when you get a proper perspective you can start to do something about it

[@GlamdringandOrcrist]

I’m ngl. Having them be essentially split personalities seems like a get out of jail free card that they’ve added in to keep Sylvanas in the story post Shadowlands.

[@Shiirow]

the jekyl and hyde gambit.

[@Mynty100]

Epic cinematic looking forward to 9.2 :D

[@AsprosOfAzeroth]

I'm still not over the fact that Zovaal created the Legion that is one of the very few entities that can completely destroy souls! And considering how many world it hit, the Jailer effectively lost. And if Amanthull had seated his ass 3 seconds later he would have pulled Sargeras too late and Zovaal would've lost Azeroth...

[@raver377]

he didnt create the legion, where are you even getting that from? he didnt even create the dreadlords that was denathrius, i mean you could argue that the jailer maybe, MAYBE had a hand in the creation of the dreadlords but it was still denathrius

[@ArlongSun]

@@raver377 But Zovaal did create the Burning Legion. It was him working with Denathrius' Dreadlords that convinced Sargeras to start his march of Death/Fel across the universe- to wipe out all life under the guides of defeating the Void. Using the Burning Legion is how Zovaal got the Lich King on Azeroth. Remember, Denathrius has always been friendly with Zovaal- he believe in Zovaal's plan to rewrite the universe. Denathrius' machinations have always been at the service of Zovaal's plans.

[@kaneslives]

@@ArlongSun I feel like for Zovaal the legion would just be a byproduct of his plans.

[@ryuzzakibsb]

@@ArlongSun When was all that story established? Has it always been cannon? That the Burning Legion was set in motion not by Sargeras but some other major force who conviced Sargers to do that?

[@ArlongSun]

@@ryuzzakibsb It (unfortunately) is established in Shadowlands. It is from Chronicle. It was the Dreadlord who supplied Sagerus with the information about the Void- told in such away it would benefit Death. Sargerus ended up forming the Burning Legion with DREAD LORDS as hi primary lieutenants. It is confirmed in SL though the text of "Enemy Infiltration - Preface", that Denathrius, working for Zovaal have been manipulation the force of the universe for a long time. Until SL, it was mostly presumed that the Dread Lords were demons of the Fel, not a race created by Denathrius to serve Death/Zovval.

[@andresantos3487]

What i got from the cinematic is that her soul is shattered, as in, the Ranger General Sylvannas and the Banshee Queen Sylvannas are two seperate beings. A Good side and an Evil side.

[@The200Dragon]

Apologies in advance fo the long rant, just wanted to get my thoughts out there. Personally I actually like the whole story of the Shadowlands and the Jailer and Sylvanas. I understand that some people are scared about what will happen with a character that they have followed for more than 20 years. But I think ... I hope ... that this will be a good change for the character. If this story will go as I think it will go we can expect some real soul searching (pun intended) for Sylvanas. Sure she could have just been made a villain and a raid boss just to be killed by the heroes, but I think that having to actually face her past with all the other heroes and leaders around her judging her we could have a very interesting story. Not only about the moral choices of Sylvanas but also the moral choices of everyone in the story. Specially the story between Sylvanas and Tyrande could be interesting. Also, about all the things we don't know: That is the whole point of any story. The reader (or player) is not meant to know every ounch of detail from the start. In fact it might even be better if parts are never revealed at all. Just like a magic trick or any mystery. Once you know the truth the spark of joy and wonder will be gone.

[@shadowplayfx]

Here's the problem. Sylvanas didn't do any of it. The Banshee Queen did. Sylvanas (Ranger General) just woke up after 8 expansion slumber and has no clue what's going on. So effectively, "the character" is taking the blame for something she didn't do. There haven't been any moral choices for Sylvanas. Good part did the good things and bad part did the bad things. Sure, not knowing things is fine, but there is some basic information we need to understand: Who are our protagonists? Who are our antagonists? What are their motivations? (We still don't know why Jailer wants to unmake reality and he dies? in the next raid tier) What is the core of the story? What are we doing? Why are we doing anything we're doing? How are we doing it? What is our goal? None of these questions have been answered (fully) and the expansion is about to end.

[@jare3959]

I've leveled a few forsaken over the years. What makes me upset is their retconning of everything we learned about why the Forsaken adored her. They are trying so hard to erase the Dark Lady's legacy before the Jailer got to her

[@Djynni]

Good analysis. And I agree that we need to understand what Zhoval told Sylvanas that made her side with him. If Blizzard don't give us that information, or not enough information, then none of this makes sense.

[@ArgentumEmperio]

To be fair, her deal with the jailer could've been to deliver Souls to the maw in preparation of Denathrius rebellion against the other covenants There _are_ potential answers, whether folks will like them or not may be an entirely different thing But yah, for this version of Sylvanas I don't actually dislike it - I think it's the best path going forward with her, and I think like a guildmate said that it is likely that dolks have simply gotten too invested into Sylvanas for it to even be possible to write her a good story arc anymore

[@dannybonsai7102]

indeed, fans are coming up with countless sound explanations linking everything together, but they never come from Blizz.

[@YT-mp7ei]

She burned Teldressil because Saurfang failed to kill Malfurion. Thus making the plan of holding the tree hostage impossible and burning the only way in her mind. Motivation can be better explained for sure, but we do need to remember Jailer/Sire tried to manipulate all cosmic forces. So there might be more manipulation to come.

[@Scheals]

The animation style is so similar to the old TF2 Garry's Mod machinimas.

[@RealElliottRichardson]

I would love to see a WoW cinematic animated like Heavy is Dead

[@TheHorreK2]

True! I totally forgot those and was trying to think what this reminds me of

[@fzuhair]

Maybe the Nathrezim will play a part in this. They did have a major role in giving Sylvanas back control when she was turned banshee, and during 9.1, then did heavily play the Nathrezim card and how they are now the Jailer’s pawns rather than the Legion.

[@Lupinemancer87]

Despite everything, I will admit, this current Sylvanas may be my favorite version. I like a good redemption story even if that might not be what's gonna happen here. I really can't wait to see what they plan with her now.

[@Gorahal7]

I also love a good redemption story... This is a bad one.

[@emiliawycislak7261]

@@Gorahal7 But it didn't even start.

[@tristamfs3542]

@@Gorahal7 it didnt even start yet, lmfaoooo

[@Subject_Keter]

@@tristamfs3542 it started the moment "Shattering Souls" became a idea and personally much everyone called it that they would use it on Slyv.

[@OLIvIER327]

Inaction dooms us all so let's speed up character development for just this moment, and you are now redeemed in less then 15 minutes. Gongrats.

[@Scypher0th]

i can honestly say i forgot WoW even existed anymore....

[@gamingscientist7445]

Throwing the best possible spin... Sylvanas joined forces with the Jailer to regain her soul.