NobelWomen #5: Burger’s Daughter

[@shreeyapaul9764]

Glad that I found your channel❤ Thanks for the review and gist of it.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Welcome to my channel, very happy to have you! I hope you will stick around! ❤️

[@shreeyapaul9764]

@@brittabohlerthesecondshelf yeah love from India😊❤️

[@kanhaiya833]

Wonderful...

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Thank you!

[@jamesholder13]

Awesome review! I agree Gordimer's dialogue is difficult and often frustrating.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Thank you, James! And yes, many people (inlcuding me) struggle with Godimer's style, and esp. the dialogues.

[@babetteernst8874]

Liebe Britta, deine Rezension war wie immer eine spannende Sicht, die mich in meiner Einschätzung bestärkte. Ich fand das Buch eienrseits großartig und andererseits bereitete es mir einige Probleme. Letztere bezogen sich wie bei vielen auf den Schreibstil. Ich habe wohl noch nie in einem Buch so viele Passagen doppelt gelesen und immer wieder zurückgeblättert, weil mir gerade der Überblick fehlte, wer mit wem über wen sprach. Wenn ich diese Schwierigkeiten hinter mich gebracht hatte und zwischen den Gesprächen entfaltete die Autorin Situationsbeschreibungen, die ich genial fand. Da gab es Landschaftbeschreibungen, die wie Malerei waren, mit einem dicken Pinsel gestaltet und doch konnte man genügend erkennen, man hörte sogar die Leute reden und nahm Gerüche wahr. Mir gefiel auch das Thema: die Selbstfindung der jungen Frau, die herausfinden musste, wie ihr eigenes Leben aussehen kann und die erlebt, wie die Erfahrungen verhindern, dass sie sich völlig von der eigenen Geschichte lossagen kann. Ich fand die Situation recht vielschichtig geschildert mit vielen durchaus verständlichen und doch ganz unterschiedlichen Sichtweisen. Hätte Gordimer nicht noch viel mehr Leser erreichen können, wenn sie auf diesen verwirrenden Schreibstil verzichtet hätte, oder ist das ein ausschlaggebender Punkt für den Nobelpreis gewesen? Vor vielen Jahren las ich bereits ein Buch von ihr und war anschließend allgemein Nobelpreisträgern gegenüber eingeschüchtert. Leider weiß ich nicht mehr, wie es hieß, aber dass mir vieles belanglos vorkam und ich gleichzeitig das Gefühl hatte, die eigentliche Botschaft verpasst zu haben, ist mir noch in Erinnerung. Schön, dass ich es in diesem Rahmen noch einmal mit Gordimer versuchen und diesmal vieles auch genießen konnte.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Vielen Dank für deinen schönen und ausführlichen Kommentar. liebe Babette! Und es freut mich sehr, dass du doch noch mal ein Nobelpreis-Buch ausprobiert hast und dass du auch Freude daran hattest. Dein Einwurf, ob Gordimer nicht vielleicht mehr Menschen hätte erreichen können, wenn ihr Stil zugänglicher wäre, ist eine interessante Frage. Ich denke, dass jeder Künstlerin sich diesem Dilemma stellen muss, maW, sie muss ein Gleichgewicht finden zwischen dem, was sie selbst am besten findet, und den Konzessionen ans 'Publikum'.

[@kerrymansell8102]

The first book of Gordimer's I read was The Conversationist, it wasn't an easy read either and the first thing I did after reading it was to read it again because there were so many bits of the story I couldn't really grasp. It was the same with Burgers Daughter except the story line didn't hold me and I gave up on it half-way through. I found her short stories much more accessible.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Ah, that is interesting what you say about her short stories. I've never read those. Maybe I should try!

[@alldbooks9165]

Excited to find this one. I’ve decided to read South African literature for my themed reading month next January, and this one will fit in perfectly.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Ah, I'm really curious what you ill make of it, especially re the writing style. And such a great topic for your themed reading month! I've read quite some South African authors (fiction and non fiction) while I lived there in 1994/1995, but I've somehow not followed up with newer books. So I hope you will have some suggestions for me!

[@nicolaspoblete2087]

thanks so much for reviewing this novel. Though I haven't read this one, Nadine is one of my favorite writers, especially her post-apartheid novels such as "The pickup", which I consider a masterpiece, "The house gun", "My son's story" and "None to accompany me", which I recently re-read. It's true that her use of dialog can be hard to grasp, that's part of her experimental style. Still I believe in what Barthes called an "active reader" that goes along with the reading/writing/artistic process rather than digesting stories in a complacent/comfortable way, especially if we're reading about oppressive and segregationist regimes. Her final novel, "No time like the present" is also a jewel. Even at 90 Nadine never forgot her political stand! I hope your review encourages more readers to visit her amazing oeuvre!

[@josmith5992]

Nicholas, I'm glad to hear that you rate The Pickup so highly as that's one of two of Gordimer's novels I own but haven't read. This was my first read by her and although I found her style sometimes challenging, there are things about her writing I liked so I look forward to trying something else.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Hi there, Nicolas, happy to see you back in the comments! I havent read The Pick-up yet but I did enjoy No Time Like the Present, and I agree Gordimer was political until the very end & I always commended her for that. And although I can understand what she was trying to do re writing style, it just doesn't quite work for me. For me, her style is too distracting, in other words it detaches me from the story. But I'm very happy to hear that you love her work so much!

[@KayAmpersand]

Wonderful review, Britta! There is only one point I want to add - the conversation Baasie and Rosa have also really well highlights that even her understanding of that time is different from his because she is white and even as a supporter of black rights she can never experience the suffering of Baasie and relate to his struggle. Like I said in the goodreads' discussion - I thought that conversation was the best part of the book.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Thank you so much, Kay. And yes, that is such a good point you make re the conversation between Rosa and Baasie! And for me this scene7conversaion was also the highpoint ofthe novel.

[@wendyryan1618]

I agree that the writing could be a real struggle at times. However, there were some parts where I really enjoyed the writing - when little Rosa went to stay with her very Afrikaans relatives; the vividness of that little street in France and its inhabitants (but with a touch of unreality); and the whole encounter with Baasie and its aftermath. I think the themes of the book were really interesting and Gordimer gave them the complexity they deserved. Like you I found the writing style of July's People much easier to digest. I also remember liking her short stories when I was in my 20's (a very long time ago) so I'm curious enough to do a reread. I've probably lost a few braincells since then, as well as a lot of my literary snobbery, so I may feel differently about them now.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

I'm happy to hear that you found the book rewarding! And I agree that Gordimer didn't shy away from complexity, on the contrary. And yes, July's People! :-)

[@josmith5992]

Your comment, "It didn't grab me as much as the subject would suggest", rings true with me too Britta. I found that style of dialogue frustrating even though what the characters were talking about was interesting and it was only really in London, when Rosa has the conversation with Baaise, that you feel some passion from her. As I said in the group I'm glad I read it though and actually have a copy of July's People on my shelf I will delve into one day.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Ah, I hope you will enjoy July's People! And the scene with Bassie was one of the high-points of the book as well.

[@jennilecompte900]

Still working my way through this book. Just as you have said, not an easy writing style, but definitely important issues discussed in the book. I will carry on. Have a good day.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Happy to hear you're reading the book, and: take your time!

[@Robert.Sheard]

Gordimer has been on my list of authors to read forever, but I've never picked her up. So many gaps in my reading to fill...

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Hahaha, yes, gaps everywhere! It's like a bottomless pit... :-)

[@cherylclough4309]

My local Reading Group read My Son’s Story by Gordimer. I found it important but her writing as you suggest. I’ve read Song of Solomon but may try a reread. I do love Morrison. Have read all of hers. She’s actually a bit difficult as well.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Hahaha, yes, its true Morrison's writing can be a bit jarring as well... I'm looking forward to re-reading Solomon, though, its been decades and I've never read it in English... I hope you will join in, of course!

[@JosephFrancisBurton]

OH! I have been looking forward to this review - sorry I’m a few days late! I read two books by Nadine Gordimer last year including the Late Bourgeois World. I was very disappointed! Quite frankly she can’t write, which is a shame because the topics and themes she brings up are so very interesting and important! My review can be summarized as “great potential, but many missed opportunities “

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

No worries about being late, I'm happy you're joining in. And I guess Gordime's style is just not for everybody, some readers really love it but I always struggle... Which is a pity because, like you said, the topics of her books are really interesting.

[@JosephFrancisBurton]

It is a shame, because she is a great interview! But when I read My Sons Story and Late Bourgeois World, I was so disappointed at how poorly they were written! Thank you again for your excellent discussion.

[@Japoleczka]

I sign under the statement that Nadine Gordimer is not for me. And I tried, God how I tried! 'Burger's Daughter' was my fourth novel by Gordimer. Incredible patience... Her books are heavy, I feel like if there was dark cloud hanging above me when I read it. Characters like cut out of paper, weird, cold. And 'Burger's Daughter' was simply boring. Endless chapters with absolutely nothing to announce to the world. No. I'll stick to Coetzee in South Africa. He's great. P.S. Just started Herta Muller 'The Land of Green Plums ' What is your opinion on this one? It seems quite promising so far.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Yes, I can absolutely realte to your struggle with Gordimer, her books are just not for everyone... Herta Müller, wow, talking about 'not easy to read'... I quite liked Herztier, but cant speak to the translation, I read it in german. But it's her least experimental work, so it's a a good place to start. Happy reading!

[@tortoisedreams6369]

oops! Only on p62, it's been a little slow. I'll be back!

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Take your time! :-)

[@tortoisedreams6369]

Yes, the writing was unwelcoming, closed off, "detached" is a great word. But even in the less inviting first half there are wonderful scenes that burst through & swept me on (altho I did have thoughts of DNFing, & I never DNF). It was also the most difficult & "literary" of our Nobel books, which may be fair to expect in such lauded books, & we need to accept the responsibility to be good readers & push through. Rosa, although unclear & restrained, is a complex character, speaking to different "you's," & reflecting currents in SA. Choosing how to live her life, a problem we all have, & more poignant in her perspective as part of the painfully complex racial issues in SA (sometimes paralleled here in the US). The ending won me over, & this novel gave me the most to think about of any of out Nobel books. You're probably tired of hearing this, but thank you once again for getting me to read a book I wouldn't've read -- picked up July's People today!

[@lilliannieswender266]

Hello Britta. Nadine Gordimer is one of those authors who no matter how hard I try, I just cannot warm up to. I find her writing style dry and uninviting, and I find I really can't care about any of her characters. I have read Burger's Daughter, and that is what decided me it would be the last novel I would read by her. This is just my opinion, and should be taken as such because I know many people really like her books. Thank you for an interesting discussion as usual.

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Hi there, Lillian! Judging form the comments here & on goodreads Gordimer's writing style is something many people (including me) struggle with. I'm glad I read some of her books, mainly because the topics she tals about, but I probabaly wont return to them soon...

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

I absolutely cannot stand Gordimer's writing style, so I seem to align with quite a few people on your Goodreads group and in the comments here, Britta. For someone dealing with whiteness in South Africa, I'd suggest Summertime by JM Coetzee. It's darkly funny and self deprecatinh, while not being dismissive of the questions white South Africans must've had around that time. Coetzee doesn't fully engage and seems more preoccupied with questions of the ethics of art. Stuff like that. Also, Country of My Skull by Antjie Krog is written by a journalist who's worked in the townships for years, so through her interactions with black people, she came to define whiteness to herself. Gordimer doesn't seem like a very reflective writet while Krog might be. I can't say, I've only read Krog's poetry in her native tongue. If you understand Dutch, I'm sure Afrikaans would be super easy for you, so that's always something to consider if you find yourself interested in South Africa. 😊

[@brittabohlerthesecondshelf]

Yes, indeed many readers disliked Gordimer's writing. I her style is a typical case of either love or hate, nobody seems to be indifferent to her writing style. I have never read Antjie Krog, sounds very intriguing thank you for the recommendation, great! I have to admit, though, I dont get along that well with Coetzee... And, yes, I can read Afrikaans but its not as easy as I thought even though I speak Dutch fluently.

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

@@brittabohlerthesecondshelf oh, no worries. Many people dislike Coetzee and I can see why. I just love his writing, personally. That's interesting, thank you for sharing! I find Dutch a bit difficult as an Afrikaans speaker because of all the fancy conjugations. They also sound crazily different. Dutch speakers say Afrikaans sounds like a child speaking Dutch very badly, and I think Dutch sounds like someone speaking Afrikaans with slurred speech and an Irish accent. Happy reading! I hope you enjoy Antjie Krog if you ever get a chance to read her.