MAKE IT RAIN - What is your arrow doing down range??

In this segment I dove deeper into the truth about arrows. This time showing you real situation results of what your arrow weight can affect. I think it’s important to stress that I’m not discouraging FOC (front of center) type of thinking because I believe it has its purpose and applications. What I am trying to do is have you see for yourself what the real life cause and affect are for such choices. Some of the content out there has been comparing apples to oranges for you for too long. As an archer and bow hunter it’s critical to know your bow’s capabilities for flight, grouping, cast as well as penetration. It’s my belief that unless you’re about to embark on massive dangerous game, there’s some amazing choices for arrows in the middle ground.
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[@WilliamAM43]

John has been cutting through the archery community BS the last couple vids, awesome job!

[@konradkaufman7655]

What BS?

[@VitalyMack]

@@konradkaufman7655 basically that speed is everything.

[@johnarcher9480]

@@konradkaufman7655That FOC means everything and that a 600+ gn arrow is your best bet.

[@danimal806]

Love the practicality of your videos. Not biased, not promoting anything. Again, love it.

[@mark_30_60]

Straight up physics. Good real world lesson without a biased opinion. Great video! Thanks for making it.

[@kippbolt5449]

Dudley dropping FACTS.

[@kylemacdonell1450]

Not really info for the average hunter.. I mean ..ask yourself how many hunters can / should be shooting at game anywhere near 100 Yards.

[@johnarcher9480]

@@kylemacdonell1450look at the charts. Even 40 yards is a huge difference.

[@mikehottinger4212]

John, your last three videos have been on fire! Terrific common sense for archers. Thank you!

[@ralphturney2125]

Absolutely!!!!!

[@sprag22]

Can’t thank you enough for explaining this thoroughly and not telling people what is best but giving them the tools to understand so they can make the decision that works best for them.

[@williamshaver5524]

As a bowhunter for 60yrs I have seen the trends and equipment come and go. In my 70s now my system is even more important than ever. Shoot what you can handle, shoot it accurately, taking high percentage shots at close range, learn set up. If shooting through a whitetail from brisket to tail is important to you, never fear, one day you'll get old and everything will change. Just learn accuracy and self control.

[@royhoglund1322]

No BS! Love the video! Keep them coming. There's no cheating physics! Nock On!

[@grumpybob4036]

Totally agree that there's a middle ground and you shouldn't just chase speed or FOC. I wanted to be around 280 FPS with as much FOC I could get. RIP TKO with 250 Gr. up front , 543 total arrow weight and I'm shooting 288 FPS and 21% FOC. The arrow shaft you pick makes a massive difference in your FOC as is evident in this video since an AXIS shaft is way more GPI than a RIP TKO and his FOC wasn't even close to mine. Also just slamming more weight up front can make big changes in arrow flight too since at some point you are just way under spined.

[@maxbehr3095]

Perfectly said dude.

[@troypowders4312]

I shooting rip tko too. Don’t know what I’m shooing at for fps. But my sight tape for spot hogg is 20. With a 26.5 inch draw and a total arrow weight of 415. 150 up front 15.3 foc

[@kevintabor6586]

I love that he is doing this lately. Everyone listens to the ranch fairy. Lol I literally have friends that look down on my set up because it isn't heavy but yet I'm the one always making the kills.

[@NommyTox]

450-480gr @ 280fps +or-. I have a 30inch draw so this is very obtainable for me. A very leathal combination and forgiving.

[@wyattzielinski7189]

I use a 451.3-451.7 grain rip tko at 16.67% foc I like the speed and pin gap of a light arrow but I want as much foc as I can get. Do your research folks, great video.

[@kylehouser9176]

Ranch fairy guys need to watch this!! Great video I’m a middle of the road guy 489 grain arrow works well for me!

[@larrygronholm435]

They need to listen to the podcast john did with Troy (RF).

[@micker6580]

Great video. I’m glad you did not attack heavy arrow guys, great dialogue. .For me, I shoot 65lb draw weight with 28 “ draw length. My property is all I hunt Whitetails on. I’ve never shot a buck or doe past 43 yards. Most all of my harvests are within 25yards. In the thick Michigan woods that I own, shots past 50 yards are non existent. I personally shoot 550 total arrow weight with 300 spine and almost 19% FOC simply because I’ve hit a shoulder blade once previously and had my first lost buck. I was devastated. I also switched from mechanical heads to fixed, different discussion. I’m confident with my groups and arrow performance. I’m always wanting to learn more. Thank you for your excellent videos and your communication skills.

[@user-il9ip8no2o]

I chose a weight of 500 grains, it seems to me that this is the optimal weight for hunting. The arrow is quite heavy and at the same time has a good trajectory.All I know is that after 50m, for every extra meter of distance, the arrow drops an inch for a 60-pound bow.

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

Most people arent taking shots at game 50+ yards either. That changes things considerably. So does firing from a downward angle from say a tree. Im thinking 50 yards is plenty.

[@thomasstanworth]

By 50m, drop will be approximately 2” per metre, so even worse than that!

[@Range-X]

New favorite archery channel

[@Dr_779]

I’ve never shot at a deer past 30 yards in PA woods, because they can just move so much no matter how light/fast your arrow setup is. For me 650 gn arrows with single bevels has been a game changer. No longer do I aim back to avoid the shoulder, now I aim lower and more forward, a few inches above the top of the front leg. And “Quartering to” shots are no longer a problem. On one occasion I caught the heavy part of the shoulder bone and the 650 gn with cut throat split the bone and still passed through the opposite side ribs! Three deer since using this setup and two fell within sight and the other was close enough I could hear it crash. I also love target shooting out to 80yds, and I much prefer lighter arrows for longer ranges.

[@tonyellis6383]

exactly, so statically you know what most shots you get an opportunity at, which is within 30 yards, etc. makes sense to me. With better FOC you can afford to aim more forward where vitals are. I switched cause i found that most of my shots were quartering to, so i needed more FOC.

[@dougabbas1603]

@dougabbas1603 I agree, I rebuilt my arrow setups 2 years ago. I shoot axis pros with 75 grn brass and 150 magnus. running about 595 total out of a 72 pounds obsession bow. My maximum hunting range is 50 yards and those arrows blow right through. I love the extra weight up front for those what-if shots, the deer moves or the i'm only human and not perfect shots.

[@SWMissouriOutdoors]

Right on, im at around 11% foc. Plenty for me and shoots flat enough. Great information. Nock On.

[@ZSnuffBox]

Trade-offs. Perhaps the goal should be a proper balance: Flattest trajectory that still provides sufficient energy and momentum for specific target animal. Great video. Thank you.

[@bbmas1930]

What I found with my pin gaps when shooting heavy arrows, was that yes the pin gaps between min and max (20 and 60) were much wider than with a lighter arrow BUT the gaps were extremely consistent. Ie the gap between 20-30, 30-40 including 50-60 were virtually identical. The gaps didn’t stretch like they do with lighter arrows. The advantage of this was that gap shooting was very natural. So I think it’s true that the speed loss down range is minimised and that’s seen in the gap spacing . But there’s no doubt that the overall speed is so much slower that the overall pin spread gets huge.

[@JedlyMT]

RF proved this with radar at 60 yards. Light arrows lose speed faster.

[@brokenarrow6491]

​@@JedlyMT Yes that is true but they still get there faster. It's about your preference and what your shooting and at what distances.

[@JedlyMT]

@@brokenarrow6491 roughly a tenth of a second faster to be precise.

[@ep3389]

​@@JedlyMTand with a lot less energy

[@vickventer53]

Saw the same with my setup, very consistent gaps for the heavy arrow where the light arrow's gabs almost doubles for every 10 yards.

[@robertdavis1102]

Thats why Easton produced the sonics. So you can have a lighter arrow and better foc and still have good speed. I hope people listen to you because you prove what you say unlike 90% of the bunch on YouTub😔

[@enaznhoj]

Knowledge drop. Thank you for your super big brain. Love your way of instructiog. As a former shooting competitor I have taken many classes from many big name instructors. You rate up there with the best.

[@chrispasto1349]

Keep it coming! 51 and still learning something new every day! Awesome knowledge transfer!

[@nockonarchery]

More to come!

[@donreese3588]

John thanks for doing this I've being a fan of u for a while !!!!

[@SWINGERINTO]

Could not agree more! Thanks for the info! P.S. Gorgeous time piece!

[@tlschreur]

Thanks for being a voice for reason in the archery world.

[@rootjr.3658]

My new set up is 488 gr and 25% FOC without lighted nock and something like 503 gr and 23% FOC with one. Unfortunately Easton doesn't offer a shaft that can make this possible, and I'm waiting to see how well these new shafts hold up. My old set was an Easton Axis with 75 gr insert and 225 gr points for 608 gr and 23% FOC. My sight bottoms out at about 80 yards, but admittedly I am not good enough to be attempting shots on game at this distance anyway. Most, not all, hunters are not either. My reason for going lighter was to increase my practice range to hopefully improve my shooting at closer distances. As an aside, I know Dudley is a much better archer than me, and he has sponsor constraints; but physics would dictate that he could up his FOC, therefore requiring less resistance from his vanes because of the increased moment arm. Ultimately this could allow for the ability to loose a fletch, and retain as much or more stability from only 3 vanes. This would reduce the drag and in all likely hood end up with a setup with greater terminal effect with the same trajectory and accuracy as his current setup. Moving to an Axis 4mm would probably even give him enough weight savings that would also increase the FOC not requiring as much weight to be added up front. But.... his setup obviously works for him. In the end my advice is: Buy components, build arrows, then shoot to find what works best for you. Then repeat, because you are probably still wrong, lol. It's all about the journey. Enjoy it.

[@StikmanN8]

Just my mid-west (WI) stand hunting opinion based on over 30 years in the field. Average archers, proficient to max 40 yards and in, for whitetail hunting scenarios, bumping up the FOC and overall weight offers benefits in penetration(well above market trends of max speed and lightweight options), increasing chance at pass through with living targets always moving and altering impact performance of your arrow. The balance is up to you with the plethora of options available in arrow builds today. The deciding factor is up to you as the hunter, and your personal experiences. In hunting, I prefer to make the death and dying part as short as possible. For me that means heavier than average arrows and excessively sharp broadheads. Out of respect for the animal I like deer not knowing what hit them before the lights are out. You bowhunt long enough and you look back to heavier slower arrows of yesteryear, and their performance, for me, I go heavy and draw my max effective killing distance a little closer to my weapon. It's the hot topic today in bowhunting if we aren't talking about vertical versus crossbows. cheers.

[@chadpinder6864]

I’m liking my 485gr axis this year. Great info John. Keep up the great work.

[@Sticksniper0625]

Blow it up Dud !!!!! Get up on that soap box and stay there man ! I love it 🤘🏼🤘🏼🤘🏼

[@justinroethel7424]

Good Info and food for the archery community John! I literally was just doing these same tests for my own hunts (western mule deer and African game)

[@AD-pf7cv]

Finally. Please people stfu about your heavy arrows.

[@parkerlipetzky]

Love going down these arrow rabbit holes. Tell PSE to start making 75lb limbs!

[@SheepdogConservation]

Dudley just bringing us all back to center! Soaking it all up and loving it! It wasn't my intention to build an arrow at 18%FOC this year but thats what I ended up with.. going to try out your "hill method" as a final check to ensure 18% isn't ever-so-slightly weakening my shaft!!

[@derrickprest8150]

Love the content of this video, great illustration with specs to back it up. Thanks

[@sthompson447]

With as many things in society these days that make you start to think up is down, and left is right, it doesn't surprise me that people in forums are saying heavier weight equals tighter sight scales. I highly encourage folks to pay the $12 a year for Archers Advantage and start crunching numbers for different arrow builds. It really opens your eyes to proper spine, speed, kinetic energy, and trajectory height. It's what I've used for my 495 grain hunting build, and my 435 grain TAC build and was suggested to me by a friend. Best $12 you'll spend to save you hundreds of dollars messing around with inaccurate arrow builds.

[@lucasgeiman1765]

Great video john. I have multiple arrow set ups that i keep around and when I get a new rig I always test them all just to see which one best suits the bow and what im looking to accomplish. I've found the same results. It seems that middle of the road weight definately gives you the best blend of penetration and cast

[@hybrid704]

set the timer - RF crowd will be here soon

[@nicolaalberti7736]

😁

[@allenr6687]

They won’t say anything they are ranging experts and the animals freeze in fear when they shoot at them..

[@agi6521]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@unsupportedultra]

RF Literally stats first and foremost dozens and dozens of times to shoot an arrow that flys perfect with the trajectory that works for your situation.

[@JedlyMT]

RF army reporting for duty!😂😂😂😂 There is great info on both these channels. Dudley is smart AF. So is RF. They both have their place. My town just had a 3D shoot last weekend and I didn't go because my hunting setup is not a target setup. If I'm building to shoot a TAC style event, I would go light and fast. I'm hunting elk and have a personal max range of 60 yards no matter what. So I built an arrow to fit that need. But I also love nuance.

[@gabecisneros5699]

Wow. This completely throws what I thought I needed for my next set of arrows. The tapes printed out next to each other is a real eye opener. Back to the drawing board

[@bigz5262]

That’s at 100 yards. It’s not a practical distance for any game animal

[@northdakotawaterfowlersbla2358]

Are you hunting or just target shooting?

[@northdakotawaterfowlersbla2358]

@@bigz5262100%! That’s what I’m saying! I’ll take a 600 grn over a 500 grain even at a longer ethical distance of 50-60 yards. At that didarance there isn’t a huge difference and that’s where I find the middle ground, I’ll take the penetration.

[@bigz5262]

@@northdakotawaterfowlersbla2358 mine are 550 but my bow has 80 pound limbs

[@northdakotawaterfowlersbla2358]

@@bigz5262 haha I am also shooting 80 limbs so it definitely does make a difference!

[@88decor]

Love it, there’s too much bro science with people these days. Having an optimized setup with tighter pins is the objective. All these people going into 600 grs it’s hard hitting yeah hard hitting the ground or a limb.

[@ericwalsh7418]

I appreciate all the work that John is doing to bring some common sense to a number of topics over the past few videos. That said, I am struggling with how I find the balance between weight and FOC. The only data that we have on the topic that looks at the effects of FOC on penetration on animals is the Ashby reports. The data shows that penetration increases with higher FOC. In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. For arrow setup, my challenges include a 32" draw, slow bow (310 fps IBO) and a sore shoulder that limits me to about 60 lbs. The long draw pushes me to a 260 spine, 5mm axis (11.5 gpi) cut to 31 inches. Trying to achieve a modest FOC of 14 or 15 requires 200 grains in the front. Add on a lighted nock and the total weight of the arrow is pushing 670 grains. It would be great if Easton had better solutions in this space so guys like me had a better trade-off between speed, trajectory and FOC.

[@gs637]

For me & my bow set-up 430 to 450 gr. seems to be the sweet spot (for whitetail). Learned a ton from your vids over the years, it certainly helped me become a better archer. Thanks, and keep it coming please!

[@coldbeerz4ever419]

Good luck if you hit a shoulder bone. Even on a whitetail. Not fun. I blast through.

[@Arwndr]

​​​@@coldbeerz4ever419 Really? Did you already try that? kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZfEioCtipebras 361gn & 556gn arrows with broadhead easily goes right through shoulder bone with same 60pound compound bow... And about 10.5" (26.6cm) of ballistic gel. 5.9" (15cm) of that ballistic gel equal to average body of big hunting animal. So, even light arrow with broadhead go through shoulder bone and hole body through out.

[@caseymartin1082]

I shoot 430 and blast through to so don't need a heady arow

[@dannygroves6764]

For me and my 65 pound bow I am shooting 490 grains and a single bevel broadhead. That is heavy for me I used to shoot 400 grain tops I had to add 50 brass up front and changed to 125 grain heads and my arrows are a jump up in spine so I did everything I could almost and that's what I built and that's heavy to me, I'm blasting through everything shoulder and all, both sides. I'm still shooting 280 fps at 490 grains at 400 I'm shooting 301. 490 is plenty for anything ide ever hunt including elk, moose, bear, or even bison.

[@rfcorreiaiv]

Thank you for all the info, the mystery for me was always why am I using this setup. In the beginning it was because my local shop set me up like that. Info like this helps me sanity check it all.

[@pattowle4434]

Well said JD. The speed vs FOC rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper with every “expert” opinion out there. Pay attention to what and where you hunt, your bow setup, your physical abilities… then make a choice of arrow set. And practicing in conditions like you hunt helps out.

[@gbouvier7234]

Fantastic break down!

[@allaboutarcherymov]

I had similar conversations with many clients that jumped on that wagon. Nine out of ten admit no really having a true knowledge as to why. " I heard",'"friend that knows", "video didn't really understood", etc. Sure enough, I toke pictures at TAC TN of what I call porkpie trees due to the arrows stuck to trees. As a long time hunter I believe, the guide lines Easton chards offer, and a bit of experience in combination with, correct paper tuning. Will do just fine in North America. Thank you for the support.

[@bradwhunt]

I’m shooting a 513gr arrow with 210 total grains up front shooting 291fps out of the PSE Evo XF 33. Thing is a hammer, flies super accurate and during tac I hit some branches on a couple targets and with our long lens at 4K 120 you can see the arrow correct itself after it hits the branch because of the high FOC. This is a good video Dudley 👍

[@jackbuendgen389]

Depending on the draw weight 430-460ish is perfect.

[@douglash.8862]

For My Maxed Out, 50 Pound DNA SP Limbs, 435 grains was Perfect, 340 Spine 28" GT Hunters with, 50 grs of Insert & Facts, 100 gr., 3 Blade Strikers, Flew like, Bullets ! Good Tradject and Accuracy for B - H's to, 65 yards with, 3 VaneTec 2.88 inch Swift Vanes @ 3* Helical and getting, 247 FPS ! For My sons 73 lb PSE Bow,. 495 grains ( 75 grs FACTS ) was, the Magic number @ 285 FPS with, 3 AAE Stealth Maxes at, 5 -6* Helical ( Az. E=Z fletch Mini ) W/ Exodus, Slick Tricks or Shuttle T, B-H's. He's dropped several Elk and a Good sized, Shiras Moose ALL "Pass Thru's" & ALL Died within, 100 Yards, except one ( Dead @ 325 Yds ).

[@percussionalobsecration6178]

Great practical video. I just built some new hunting arrows tonight, which will land around the 450gr mark with 125gr points. These should be great for my Mathews Z7 at 27.5 draw length. Shooting a local 3D tournament league and building arrows for it, I was able to see the pin gap differences between my Superdrive 23s at 395gr vs 370 at the longer ranges, which definitely helps in unmarked yardage.

[@tree_monkey3120xp]

Thanks John this is what I am trying to figure out myself i have done the stupid lob stuff I'm dropping back to mid to high 500s!

[@OldPackMule]

Love this video series. Wisdom. It comes at quite a price for the fool who won't take the freebies.

[@tedkoch357]

Damn good information, and you bet I’ll try this

[@northdakotawaterfowlersbla2358]

Another great video Dud! I think it’s ridiculous that someone would think a heavier arrow would “retain its velocity better because of the weight” haha. Although I would have a little push back as far as hunting scenarios go. I’m not shooting a deer at 100 yards. Plain and simple. If you want to shoot long range, become a rifle hunter. I think a lot of guys think “if I can shoot 100, I’m gonna try to kill at 100,” and I think that’s a terrible mindset. At 50-60 yards the difference between a 500 grn and a 600 grn arrow isn’t terribly different with the benefits of the higher foc. I find the middle ground by the distance of shots and others can find it by reducing arrow weight. It’s about being confident in your set up and making the ethical choice when drawing down on an animal. I also wanna shoot with you someday haha.

[@wuta6347]

Right on!!

[@waynemorris1999]

Newton would disagree with your first statement. I agree that there are a lot of people promoting unethical long range bow shots. Heck, most people can’t take a 50 yard off hand rifle shot but they think they can shoot 100 with a bow.

[@JohnConnell-wz5lg]

Thanks ,great video.

[@h-minus2212]

Interesting content. My primary arrow is a Victory VAP Elite .166 with the 95 grain outsert. It weighs around 460 grains with a 100-grain point and at my 27.5 inch draw length, it travel about 255 fps. Plenty for any North American big game and since I don't hunt zoo animals - it works for me.

[@sheabourne9428]

Shooting 60 lbs?

[@h-minus2212]

@@sheabourne9428 No, 70 lbs. My chronograph could be a bit off.

[@ripfletching]

Thank you

[@gregsmith9862]

I’d like to see this done to see what the trajectory drop is at typical hunting distances of 20 to 40 yards that reflects your average hunter’s ability. No one, including elk hunters, ethically takes a 100 yard shot, wild game can move too much over that distance, even with the fastest arrows or bolts.

[@dougabbas1603]

I agree, I rebuilt my arrow setups 2 years ago. I shoot axis pros with 75 grn brass and 150 magnus. running about 595 total out of a 72 pounds obsession bow. My maximum hunting range is 50 yards and those arrows blow right through. I love the extra weight up front for those what-if shots, the deer moves or the i'm only human and not perfect shots.

[@Cooldibs]

One of the few good things of having a shorter draw (28”) is that I can cut my arrows to 26.75” carbon to carbon, sit at 420 grains with 20% foc. Will be shooting 75lbs next year

[@wayneswendsen8310]

I love the fact that he teaches that people need to shoot your bow and understand your equipment. But to argue extremes, shooting 600+ or

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

It bothers you because its not the norm. However with enough practice, You can plant your groups just the same even with an insane flight arc. Used to be done for war many years ago. Of course they were shooting 80..100lb bows... and such. Not 50-60 like most. I know some like to get the optional 80lb limbs these days to brag (or for the youtuber comments) but they are dialing it back for actual hunting even if they dont care to admit it.

[@waynemorris1999]

@@crisnmaryfam7344check out the book “the Great War Bow”. I swear we are rediscovering what they knew then.

[@wvgk2829]

excellent content. I like the facts. Maybe you should have just shot them with the same sight tape so folks could see the 4 ft difference in point of impact. It seems that was lost on some of the folks here. Great job man. keep it coming.

[@elkchaser]

My middle ground is 453 grains for my 27.5” draw length and 70# draw weight. Not sure what my FOC is but I put 150 grains total up front with a single bevel fixed blade. Hoping to test it out on a Monarch this fall!

[@scottcoon905]

Rockstar information. Chasing foc and heavy arrows is a lot of what I see these days. Make sure your bow is tuned and get good arrows that fit your bow, draw length and weight. Don’t get caught going down the rabbit hole. Great stuff as always John

[@bigz5262]

Two years ago John shot a mule deer at 10 feet, it’s actually a pretty sweet video on this channel, but he got like 6 inches of penetration. He’s a phenomenal archer, but his arrow setup needs work

[@RKeaton]

@@bigz5262 but did the deer expire?

[@thesickhorseranch1930]

@@RKeaton That's some smooth brain rationalization there Bud. We care how the animal dies, not whether or not it ultimately collapses, and we want to ensure that it's quick and clean as ethical hunters.

[@bigz5262]

@@RKeaton it did expire but that doesn’t make it ethical. The quickest way to kill an animal is a pass-through. Not to mention how much headache you’re saving yourself if it dies in seconds vs a minute. Shooting a paper plate at 100 yards with 4 different arrow setups is damn impressive but it does nothing for ethically taking the deer at 30

[@crisnmaryfam7344]

@@bigz5262 Pass-through is not "always" or the "only" quick way to kill an animal. IF you hit the spot (depending on the animal in question there can be a couple even), its going down instantly either way. What we plan for is when that shot is NOT absolutely perfect, because Never is it actually a perfect shot, despite "Oh that was a perfect shot" we may say or hear people say. Humans are not perfect, Nor or our bows. Take Lusk Archery Adventures for example. He shot a Wild Boar Didnt pass through.. Its a Boar.. But it Dropped it dead in its tracks. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWTMiWZ-i8yirMU

[@Jimbowiejr]

Mines 510g, 250 spine (9.5g per inch) 200 g up front, 70lb, 31inch draw = 275 fps. 18 % Foc. Made the arrow and shot for awhile before checking Foc. 80yds is my max hunting shot and it's on.

[@tylerwatkins6319]

I built mine out to a 17.8% with 175g up front but total arrow weight is only 415ish. Victory rip xv are nice and light

[@Cpt-Pugwash14]

exellent video!!

[@user-jl1qi6sf7y]

Thx brother

[@stickboy9475]

Enjoyed the video, very good information that should be "common knowlege" but obviously is not. I would love to know what comprises that target.

[@tonyellis6383]

Your testing is correct. However, I feel it is leaving out a major element to consider, which is what your typical hunting distance is. In my state, you are hard pressed to EVER get a shot pass 30 yards due to the terrain, which is also probably most bowhunter distances when they hunt. Therefore, yes statistically you could bet on FOC benefitting you more. The slowness factor has been tested, it is something like .07 or something miniscule. The animal could take a step, yes, but they could also do the same with a light arrow, at least with a better FOC you have a better chance at punching through. But if your hunting at 100 yards, definitely arc is a huge problem. I think overall, middle ground is probably best for most bow hunters.

[@waynemorris1999]

I agree but think that middle ground is a moving target depending on draw length and weight. I’m still wrapping my head around it but I don’t think there is one single answer. It’s great that in the last couple of years the archery industry has been forced to evaluate, test and innovate.

[@shaneflowers418]

Great stuff! Hunting FL and GA swamps usually limits my shot range more than arrow weight. I use SFA to get the spine right with a decent FOC. Right now that means a .300 spine with a 100 grain insert and 100 grain head on a 28” arrow @70lbs. Bareshaft tuned perfectly (actually robin hooded the bareshaft at 20 yards). 490 grains, 17% foc and 270fps. Probably overkill for deer but I use the same setup for hogs.

[@coldbeerz4ever419]

490 grains on a 70# setup only gives you 270fps!? What bow you shooting

[@technicalbowhunting]

@@coldbeerz4ever419probably short draw length

[@bigz5262]

There is no such thing as overkill

[@gwhalin]

@@coldbeerz4ever419 I am getting 285fps with a 450 grain arrow setup on 70lb Mathews V3 set at 28.5" draw length and 80% letoff.

[@shaneflowers418]

@@coldbeerz4ever419 2011 Quest Primal. IBO 332fps and I have a 28.5” DL. Haven’t chronographed it yet, that’s the data Software for Archers gives me.

[@ericdonahue44]

John do you use a 300 or 260 spine for your hunting arrow? Great videos this week.

[@phizzle24]

The "internet" says high as possible FOC means they wind up the limbs to max to compensate for the larger GPI and inherent loss of FPS.

[@Waty8413]

Demonstrating this at 100yds definitely shows the differences in arrows with clarity, but that also ignores the fact that at the distances most people hunt, the difference is far less noticeable. I think a lot of whitetail guys, particularly eastern and midwest guys can look at this 100yd demo and just say, "So what?" I know that in the areas I hunt, a deer can slip by at 50yds and I am sometimes lucky to see it, let alone have a clear shot at it. Most of my shot opportunities are less than 25yds, virtually all of them actually. This demo is factual, and it's true that lot of archers don't really understand what is happening, but at the same time, it doesn't really affect them that much in the woods.

[@Picard80]

Not to mention the challenges to practice when you need to find 200/300gr inserts and/or field points. 100gr insert with 125gr field point/broadhead is my combination, it keeps the arrow in the 500-550 gr range.

[@gfunkera_2266]

445 gn with 19% foc seems to just fly like a dart out of my bow out to 50 yards. I don't intend to shoot farther than that with fixed pin sights though.

[@jeff_8789]

Agree 100% i just use lighter gpi arrow to keep mine up i run victory rip tko with podium 60grn titanium insert/sleeve and get 17.6 foc an overall wght 470grn havent had it not hit the dirt in 3 yrs on 30+ animals i think its more in the broadheads u choose rather than loading em way up and needing super stiff high gpi arrows just my 2 cents...great demonstration dud

[@unsupportedultra]

I do the same thing. I shoot Sirius Orions with the Snyder Core system. TAW of 487 and 18% FOC with 195gr on the nose.

[@bigz5262]

I don’t think anyone is saying the heavier arrows give you tighter pin gaps, it’s more consistent though. The difference from 20-30 is pretty close to the same as 50-60. The gap from 50-60 on the lighter arrow is a lot bigger than the gap from 20-30

[@WM-jy9dz]

...."the difference from 20-30 is pretty close to the same as 50-60" ... ??????? ....for a heavy arrow????? ...in comparison to a lighter arrow? ....here the physics to debunk this: a heavier arrow is obviously slower than a lighter arrow (if shot from the same bow with the same poundage and DL), that means it takes longer to get from A to B. The scale on the sight tape corresponds to the drop of the arrow as a result of gravity - the formula for this is DISTANCE = 0.5 * GRAVITY* TIME^2 ....... TIME^2!!!!!! ....means the gap gets bigger and bigger much faster than for a lighter arrow.... ETA: "DISTANCE" in the formula is the distance the object - in this case the arrow - drops in a certain time due to the gravity ....it is not the distance from the shooter to the target!!!

[@bigz5262]

@@WM-jy9dz look at his card with all the tapes next to each other. The gaps on the heaviest arrow grow really slowly and the gaps on the lightest arrow get bigger really fast. Your equation is true in a vacuum but immediately after the arrow leaves the string it begins to slow down because of drag. Drag is increased exponentially the faster something goes. The heavier arrow has more momentum to resist drag. In 60 yards the lighter arrow probably looses about 30 feet per second but the heavier arrow looses 10. Somewhere between 80-100 the arrows are actually going the same speed and beyond that the lighter arrow is slower.

[@WM-jy9dz]

@@bigz5262 ????? ....look at the formula, and while the lighter arrow decelerates faster, it is still faster than the heavier arrow when hitting the target (needs less time)...that means that the gaps between the pins will always grow faster with distance for an heavier arrow...the formula just tells you this ....TIME^2 ....and as long as no one can proof the formula respectively Newton wrong it is what it is....

[@bigz5262]

@@WM-jy9dz equations are great and all but they don’t mean anything compared to real world results. You can’t hunt on a calculator. You being so focused on some equations and not physical evidence kinda shows you’re probably not putting in the physical work to actually get better at hunting. Pause the video on the sight tapes and look at the real world results. The heavy arrow drops are consistent, the light arrow drops grow faster, compared with themselves respectively. I’m not saying the heavy arrow won’t drop more than the light arrow. The drops on the heavy arrow are more consistent, the drops on the light arrow grow faster

[@WM-jy9dz]

@@bigz5262let's assume for a moment that you are right - so if the gaps of the lighter arrow become bigger faster, then they would obviously catch up at a certain distance with the heavier arrow, but they never do ... how come?

[@Pattyboybx]

Nice work

[@archerash6695]

450 grains total max.

[@Corewood_TJP]

Interesting topic. I am not hunting (I have had bowhunting license many years ago), but I shoot 3D in the Danish bowhunter class. In this the rules (also fro bowhunting in Denmark) is that the arrow must weight minimum 25 grams (386 grains). I shoot with peak draw weight at appr. 44# and I use arrows that are appr. 27" (my draw length is 25½"). With previous ACC Prohunting arrows, I had FOC of 11,4% and with my present Bowfire arrows it is at 18,2%. Probably beacuse I had to put more weight up front to reach minimum total weight and also in order to not get a too stiff arrow. But normally I think I go around 10-15% FOC. But I also don't shoot more than 30 m, with my 3D setup, because that is the maximum distance in the 3D shooting, for bowhunter class.

[@harveygalloway3965]

I am a short draw, so I gave up on the idea of heavy FOC a long time ago. I have gone with the middle ground of an aluminum half out on the 5mm Axis and a 125 gr point.

[@christianherrington1456]

I’m shooting a rip tko. 200 grains upfront at 470. Shooting about 282. Last set up was 500 and I think I’m liking the flatter shooting of the 470. With an ironwill I’m very confident

[@kylen1922]

I ran into this problem last year with my new. Bow I couldn't believe the gap with the easton fmj.

[@ICU2B4UDO]

Wait! You and I should talk! I have 3 bows, different manufacturers, slightly different draw #'s, all 3 with FMJ's of slightly different weight...So, what's your issue??!! Lol 😂

[@robertwilliamson6958]

This is the no nonsense talk I prefer to see top end shooters speak. Your talk in ‘practicality for your situation’ not more is better or less is better. More or less is only better depending on what your doing. Just like almost bo one takes a 12ft catfish pole stiff as a broom stick bluegill fishing, or takes a 5ft ultralight marlin fishing. You use what’s about right for the situation, and hats right for each persons situation is different because we, are all different. For me I think a touch on the heavy side is better. I’ve used the extreme end, and it’s tough tuning. I’ve used the other extreme end and flight and accuracy typically-suffers, middle of the road it’s been 50/50, slightly on the heavier side, has equaled no problems. But I’ve got a shorter draw than most. And prefer a little less draw weight, and most of my shots are close. May not be right for the next guy though.

[@kodiakfisher]

Ok so I'm clearly a bit late to this but if I was hunting known distances from a tree stand like I do on my property in WA for deer 30-40 yds at known marked distances a heavy arrow has some benefits as cast is not an issue...BUT when hunting in the coastal range for Rosies cast is a huge deal and being able to shoot from 15yds in the thick stuff to 60 or 70 yds along clear cuts flatter is better assuming perfect arrow flight and COC broadhead. I did pass on a 63yd steep downhill shot as that elk was on full alert and shooting a new bow that year. Because I don't want to have multiple tapes or arrows I end up with a slightly lighter, stiffer, COC arrow with about 14% FOC. The greatest improvement in my groups and shooting out to 100yds has come from bow tuning and getting it absolutely perfect.

[@DavidBowCrazyBabyak86]

Great video bro thank you but anyone who knows a lil about archery knows your pins won't get closer with more weight but pple like to argue too

[@d500mag2]

Thought about it. I appreciate everything you have put on you tube for people to learn. What about the archer with a 26" DL and pulling 55 lbs? The one with a bad shoulder that can only pull 45 lbs? The one who doesn't do western hunting?

[@byronm7234]

Great video! Thanks! What arrow weight and FOC would you recommend for someone who is just target shooting and not hunting? I've only been shooting for about a year and I'm pulling 55lb, have a 28.5 inch draw length, and IBO of my bow is 325. By next year I'd like to be competing in field archery, up to 80 yards.

[@dannygroves6764]

John you are correct and you make a good point , at whst weight is it overkill, i shoot 490 and thats heavy to me , im blasting through everything yes shoulders, both sides with a single bevel broadhead and totsl arrow weight of 490 grains ide hunt anything including elk. Moose, even bison no problem and my foc is around 13 percent plenty good. Im still shooting 280 fps, at 400 grains im shooting 301. The trsde off is worth it right there but no more than that or i drop to much and i cant mske a bad judgement or miss. Im staying right here.

[@kirkwesterveltoutdoors]

I agree with everything you just proved. The problem is Most bowhunters do not know how to tune a bow. To get penetration, they shoot a heavy arrow. If they learn arrow fight, there will be more penetration with a tuned bow and lighter arrow, than a untuned bow with a heavy arrow. Most guys are hard headed with to much testosterone in their younger years. I have been in the hunting business for 44 years and I have seen it all. Keep up the good fight

[@White_devil1980]

I just did two or three groups with my new hoyt nitrux bow and the arrows are planted exactly where my middle pin is pointing if I could show you the groups I would I’m very impressed by the bow 😎🥳🥰

[@MikeyWoomer]

I'm only hunting Whitetail.. ive had great luck with 430ish. 29 draw 68# ..

[@rickjames2618]

When I’m looking for increased FOC, axis aren’t a consideration. I mostly focus on keeping an overall weight that I know is a good compromise of speed, trajectory, and penetration. It’s as simple as moving weight forward while also accounting for change in dynamic spine.

[@herdbull]

No Substitutes fir plain old Practice ⚡️

[@mattgipe84]

One thing to factor though would be that the majority of whitetail hunters are not taking shots over 40ish yards. There’s typically no need to, set up in the right spots, you can get that deer within 20 to 30 yards. Typically, the argument I hear and see the most when it comes to heavy vs light is the speed and if the deer has enough time to duck the shot bc of the slower heavier arrow. All this being said, my ‘22 hunting arrow was 553g and my new ‘23 hunting arrow is 485g with about a 1 or 2 percent loss of FOC sitting at about 16% for this years arrow build.

[@montuckyman4982]

Check out tradlabs huge mortality study on kifarucast, arrow and broadhead hardly matter. What matters is hitting it where it counts. Something like 2 percent or less of the shots hit the knuckle or leg bone, far far more people hit further back and more cutting was better to RECOVER THE ANIMAL. And that's our goal, RECOVERING THE ANIMAL, not penetration or shooting a foot into the ground thru it. Blood trails are great but mainly come in to play past 100-150 yards that the animal runs.

[@reddawng43x91]

Question? If I can put 3 of 3 arrows in a paper plate at 100 should I not worry about anything as far as flight?

[@ep3389]

You lose a ton of energy if your arrows aren't flying right. For hunting this is bad

[@chadmitchell2789]

I like my set up im running a 468 grain arrow 75 pound omen at 31 inch draw length and 250 spline arrow my first pin is good to 30 yards in getting 328 pfs I like speed lol

[@calvinfisher-]

Where can I buy a target like you have there!??

[@shawndecastro8457]

That's cool

[@brendenvowell422]

I agree with everything you say, but if I’m correct, the group of people that you’re talking about promoting higher, FOC are not talking about higher FOC and arrow weight. They are talking about two equally weighted arrows with one having the weight in the shaft, and the other having the weight in the front insert. I have not done this test and cannot verify, but it would be interesting to see if two equally weighted arrows, one with higher FOC, and one with a higher shaft weight makes any difference.