"Non-Lethal Damage" in D&D 5e | Nerd Immersion

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So non-lethal damage...it doesn't exist in 5e. But so many people reference it. I think they're talking about knocking a creature unconscious which is pretty simple overall in 5e. There is one paragraph in the Player's Handbook and it seems the decision to knock someone out can be made right as the damage is dealt. It also doesn't seem to matter if it's a spell or not, as long as it's a melee attack. What do you think?
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[@NerdImmersion]

Check out The Complete Illustrated Book of Enchantment on Kickstarter! www.kickstarter.com/projects/philtonellc/the-complete-illustrated-book-of-enchantment?ref=e6hw1n Phil's Store: philstoneillustrations.com/shop?category=Dungeons+and+Dragons+5e Also, turns out I forgot to check the Sage Advice Compendium which apparently states plainly "Even a melee spell attack can be used to knock a creature out."

[@jesusmanuelgutierrezduarte5253]

I cast sleep.

[@InProductionsrodLove]

I like the way pathfinder does it, if you want to do a non-lethal atk you take a -2 to the atk. The way dnd works a good substitute could be you have to roll the atk at disadvantage so you have to declare before hand. This could also work with ranged attacks as well as you could say you are aiming for a non vital area ie the leg or arm. In real life it is really difficult to not kill a person in a fight to the death without a major skill difference. Plus it doesn't make sense to cleave an enemy in twine and say umm... I meant to knock him out

[@montezuma0000]

I appreciate the "im going to use non-lethal damage" as a DM because the players don't know how much HP the monsters have left. If I narrate "you shatter the Baron's skull under your mace" and then they say "wait i meant to keep him alive" its awkward to have to retcon.

[@alekclark85]

That’s why you give the players the prompts on how they would like to deliver the final blow. It both allows them agency over a characters victory and helps them maintain a since of ownership over narrative because they get to make those kinds of life/death decisions.

[@montezuma0000]

@@alekclark85 I do this, but I don't do it for every kill.

[@marmato9332]

Ok but counterpoint, I've had characters tell me "I try not to kill him/I do nonlethal damage" EVERY ROUND in a fight and it was just pointless and tedious. If they want to resolve it peacefully I'd rather have them do it before the fight starts, otherwise I just don't see a reason to slow down combat more. There is still a risk of accidentally killing the target if they do enough damage so I think the tradeoff is still there.

[@montezuma0000]

@@marmato9332 after the first rd if they say they're dealing nonlethal I'm just going to double check when they reach 0 if they want to kill the creature. And if their character is known for knocking them unconscious then ill just always assume that.

[@marmato9332]

@@montezuma0000 Then there is basically no difference between saying it later or not saying it at all

[@burntnorris]

This is like surprise rounds. Yes, its technically not a thing, but effectively it kind of is. It's just semantics.

[@enixxe]

Surprise rounds vs RAW isn't just a matter of semantics. Yes, they're like 90% the same thing, but it can change how other rules should be interpreted or applied. A surprise round seems to be most often interpreted as an extra set of turns characters that aren't surprised get, when RAW surprise results in a completely normal round of combat, except surprised characters can't really use their turns. A surprise round would let an assassin rogue get advantage on attacks against any creature that was surprised, while RAW, that may not be true depending on their initiatives. Likewise, they would not get an auto crit against any creature that was surprised but had a higher initiative than them, as that creature is no longer surprised following the end of its mostly useless turn.

[@lethalsandwhich]

@@enixxe this right here does feel like its just semantics....

[@paradoxxis8612]

@@lethalsandwhich But it's not semantics. If it were semantics, it would be exactly the same, just using a different term. The very fact that the rules are handled differently if it's a round vs if it's not a round means that it is not semantics.

[@atomicash2475]

@@paradoxxis8612 like how at the end of your turn your no longer surprised, so you get your reaction back. And if a creatures is surprised and goes first, an assassin doesn't have their feature activate

[@Lurklen]

@@atomicash2475 "And if a creatures is surprised and goes first, an assassin doesn't have their feature activate" Which is so dumb, it can mean a character that has no idea they're under attack is somehow benefitting from having a turn, even though the Assassin is able to react to that turn and adjust accordingly. Needless to say, I use surprise rounds. I also let creatures be surprised mid combat by new things showing up, as sometimes the fact that a dragon just struck from the shadows is bloody surprising, and everybody ends up shocked. But you can only be surprised by a creature or occurrence that you had no idea was around. That said, the point you and others make still stands, there is definitely a difference beyond semantics.

[@jtjames79]

Rule of cool. Unless I'm playing a gritty realistic game, they are heroes, if they want to take prisoners that's their prerogative. As long as it could be described in a cool way. Hip points are supposed to abstractly represent defeat, not necessarily the amount of blood in your body. Maybe you cast that fireball high, and the NPC was left with scorched hair, and passes out. Fallout sales the wizard can just say he pulls back at the last moment letting the spell fizzle out just as the NPC collapses. As a player I don't know when things are going to end, but my character is supposed to be a professional adventure, they would know. You can tell when somebody's had enough. They don't even have to literally pass out, just sit there and in shock for a while, or simply be spiritually broken and just stop where they stand. So yeah summary; rule of cool.

[@jordanlindsey4299]

I once played a monk with a homebrewed subclass that I roleplayed as never killing humanoids, so all my attacks were meant to knock out instead of kill. I always thought it was a cool idea.

[@Wh173c0c0]

That is basically the premise for my Mercy Monk. He has never killed a humanoid in our games and he will spare any creature that he deems appropriate. He *does* have 1 level of Barbarian though, so monsters that threaten his friends tend to regret their decisions. The gargantuan hydra that swallowed him whole was pummeled open from the inside, for example. = D

[@adolchrystin]

I do this BUT, if the knocking out damage is more then the MaxHP+CurHP(which is the rule for instant kill for PCs) of the target, it does not work

[@CappuccinoSquid]

That makes sense.

[@PANDAXD001]

Ted: "I give my players blunted arrows" Me before ted even starts too explain: *is that an arrow with a beanbag on the end?*

[@Onorel]

It's an arrow with a fist on the end, and yes, it's flippin the enemy off.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Historically, it'd be something like this (not sure about non-lethality...) kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnrXpmyfiMuchKs

[@toxicear5274]

Was actually talking about this last night at my session. Tried to knock out someone without damaging them

[@techwizsmith7963]

I mean, they'll be damaged, but in 5e that'll take an hour of sitting on your ass to fix

[@jtjames79]

Hit points are supposed to be subjective anyway, combining luck, fighting spirit, mojo, etc, it's not meant to be an exact measure of how much blood you have in your body that has been spilled thus far. This is also why I describe attacks after rolling dice. So using a dagger to incapacitate someone, could be role played as using a dagger to threaten them while completing your chokehold, or garrote, or on a critical you are just that damn scary they pee their pants and pass out. Just make something up appropriate on the spot, as long as the daggers tangently involved. Maybe you even flip the dagger up in the air and then punch them in the face. Lots of possibilities.

[@ascapedgoat8462]

Distant Spell doesn’t change a melee spell attack (with a range of touch) into a ranged spell attack, so technically you can tase someone from 30ft away as a sorcerer with shocking grasp.

[@mikedalvano3389]

If my players wish, they can use spells or kits to stabilize a "dead" enemy. Enemies don't stabilize on their own, so the PCs have 3 rounds to do it.

[@InsightCheck]

That's an interesting alternative. It incorporates the idea of Death Saves and applies it to enemies. Great idea.

[@_stonhinge]

@@InsightCheck Ideally should follow the same rules for massive damage the players use. Or just run it like the enemies automatically fail their death saves (to save on having to roll for every enemy) unless someone (friend or foe) stabilizes them within 3 rounds.

[@jota4491]

The thing about "Non-lethal" attacks, is that with the different types of damage you can do in one attack, is kinda hard to measure how "non-lethal"can you be, but the own book have something about it, that hing about instant death cause of a lot of damage. if you want knocout someone, you can use this rule. Like, for concussion damage. is way easier. You just punch and the guy fall, but for piercing and Slashing is waaaaay harder. You can just say "The damage was so big that the dude just got in shock and knock out" and the thing about having to state every time you drop someone to 0 that you want or not to "non-letaly" hit the guy. its easy to resolve. On the begining of a fight you just have to say "Hey dm, im not going to kill the guys"and if you change your idea you can just say "Ok, from now on, ill kill any npc you put in front of me cause me in *RAGE*"

[@joshuahollowell9170]

I still remember as a DM learning about this rule when a cleric pointed out they could knock out an enemy NPC with inflict wounds, but the ranger couldn't by using a bow. 5e is so fucking crazy

[@SirusEinzla]

"I would like to non-lethally cast Power Word: Kill."

[@LifeWithRobD]

The specific wording of this feature made me extremely pleased as a Redemption Paladin I played in a one shot. I could be in melee and be effective without compromising roleplay.

[@jab9109]

Most of my characters don't kill, so this part is very important to me xD

[@AlleyFang]

At our table, where I really stress in my descriptions the abstraction of hp as moral, stamina, luck or minor magicl defense, this makes perfect sense. the moment you reduce someone to 0hp, what you have done is completely bypassed their defenses, exhausted them beyond their ability to resist and you have them at your mercy, at which point you either finishe them off with whatever weapon you have on hand (stab them in the chest, decapitate them, crush their skull, ect) or you knock them out with a quick unarmed back hand or some other story appropriate way to make them no longer a threat (our rogue carries shackles and I let him clip them on as a "knock out) Our reasoning is that "hit" is a game term that means you beat a traget number that represent the target't defenses and lower a value that represent how long they can last in a fight. This avoids the mental gymnastic of explaining how, after a 12 feet tall frost giant with a 100pound club have "hit" you in any way used in common descriptive language and the result is anything other than you being smeared across the ice by a proper application of newton's law of motion.

[@jacobchamberlain3047]

I think that I would personally let a charicters with a blunt weapon to roll to knock someone out and force a con save based on how weakend the target is. I also think that if a charicters sneaks up on an enemy they can roll to knock them out as well.

[@FutureMoth]

I like this a lot actually. Maybe just give the victim disadvantage on the con save if they are surprised. Another thought is that maybe the DC of the con save varies depending on how much HP the target has?

[@faddishbigfoot4914]

My question is what if you have monsters that deal non-lethal damage, what will happen to the PC? Will they need to make death saves? Do they just lay there unconscious until they get a short rest? Because if the PC doesn't make death saves thats far more effective at killing them than risking a nat 20 and them getting back up.

[@leviangel97]

This is a very good point

[@NerdImmersion]

If you knock someone unconscious they're not dying, so there are no death saving throws needed, so yeah. Per the rules: "If damage reduces you to 0 hit points and fails to kill you, you fall unconscious. This unconsciousness ends if you regain any hit points."

[@thomasace2547]

As a DM I’ve reminded my PCs that they can do ‘Non-Lethal damage Attacks’, Twice! ... Everything still gets executed 😐

[@xtxschmidt]

Had my Sharpshooter fighter player who deals out a litany of death in arrow form every turn ask to "nonlethally" take out a fleeing npc. I'm like, do you have a boxing glove tipped arrow? Your ass Green Arrow all of a sudden. He described it as "putting the arrow right through his achilles" and I allowed it cause anyone gets an arrow through the ACHILLES they're not going anywhere, I ruled them as incapacitated not unconcious however.

[@dilsoncamacho4100]

I - as a DM - tend to use a homebrewed version of the lingering injuries optional rule (the optional rule is really bad IMO but the idea is good). That is specifically because I had the experience of players cheesing encounters by healing word the fighter when he goes down 4 rounds in a row. This lead me to more strict rules regarding players taking only non lethal damage, and it also lead me to implement a "DM discretion" the enemy you killed my still be alive rule. More like a nemesis system rip-off from shadow of mordor - if you kill a hobgoblin that was really cool, he might come back with a few scars having survived that. Only way to be sure is to confirm the kill. Also, I tend not to let my enemies confirm kills on my players when they are knocked out. Regarding just changing the damage from "lethal" to "non lethal" I'm OK with it, tell me if you don't want to kill it at any time before the dude is dead for sure, even at the last moment, and I let him live. This is pretty much what the rules use, no difference just tell me that you don't want him dead - I don't even tend to enforce the "not ranged" part, heck, hit him with an arrow on the foot instead of on the head and it's non lethal.

[@zsDUGGZ]

With the non-lethal damage thing, it is always good to keep the option up if the players want to do a KO bloe. Taking choices away from the player is kinda dumb imo. Non lethal damage is like the one thing to keep everybody from becoming a murder hobo.

[@lordmars2387]

At my table you have to declare, magic damage can't be non lethal, and you must use a sap to deal non-lethal sneak attack. BUT unless it's instant death enemies can enter death saves like a player if they want (non-lethal essentially auto-stabilizes them) they need only tell me before I declare them dead. P.S. non-lethal ranged weapons haven't come up yet but I'd do the same as the sap rule and just make it special arrowheads.

[@davidgolfspro]

For "lethal or non-lethal damage" I have the players announce it before their attack. Being as when the PC's attack is narrated, that narration is different for either option. I keep HP secret at the table for enemies, so the player to retcon their last attack after learning their "lethal" attack was "lethal" feels wrong [and the rest of the party agrees]. We stick to it just being melee attacks that allow you to make it "non-lethal". As for ranged, we just keep it simple as cant be "non-lethal" since it is hard to narrate a piercing damage arrow or a fire damage fireball not being lethal to the target so we just keep it simple as melee can only declare "non-lethal" damage.

[@haydem0823]

If a player wants to do non lethal damage the AC is increased depending on the situation, the damage of the attack is reduced depending on the situation, and finally my player has to justify how they are attempting to do non lethal damage. If my archer player has blunted arrows and/or they say “im not going to pull the bow string back as far”, or they say im aiming for the ankle to incapacitate or can give me some kind of justification for how they arent trying kill i allow it as long as it makes sense. But its always depends on the circumstance, so i would allow someone to make an arcana check before using shocking grasp to try to do half damage and make it non lethal, but if they forgot that the target was wearing full plate armor then it would backfire and they would do regular lethal damage. The first time my players ran into non lethal damage was when a small town had about half the populations minds taken over and they didnt want to kill when they didnt have to. It was mostly cr 0 commoners so i let them use dagger pommels or the flat of thier blades but upped the AC to 11 or 12.

[@deanospimoniful]

I completely ignore RAW on this one. If a player wants an attack of theirs (within reason) to not kill the target, it won't. This is a carryover from 4e that just makes sense to me. It also makes it easier for them to not be murder hobos.

[@zemineriver8043]

Cantrips that do psychic damage should definitely be able to knock people unconscious

[@alexanderjeffs2350]

Isnt hp not just physical health? Also a good dm will bend these rules to the players benefit within reason.

[@DanKeehner]

I usually wait for my player's to bring up if they want to non-lethally damage. Last session, for example, the gunslinger wanted to non-lethally damage the opposing monster so they could question it when it came to, he said he was trying to shoot the monster's legs at. It's also rule at our tables that spell damage is always "lethal" if it were to drop you, or a monster, to 0 hit points.

[@paradoxxis8612]

I think that would depend on the spell, though. Like, thunder damage is kind of the magical equivalent to bludgeoning - a powerful shockwave. I'd argue that you could be knocked out by thunder damage without it killing you. Most of the others though I would agree are absolutely lethal.

[@derekstein6193]

I would rule as a DM that if you tried to knock out a creature and dealt enough damage to kill it outright (i.e. after bringing the creature to 0 hit points there is enough damage left over that it is greater or equal to the creature's maximum hit points) that creature is dead, regardless. Otherwise, the attack works as intended.

[@Faircrow]

as redemption paladin it's common to get non-lethal 90+ damage

[@chromegaman]

Hitting someone with a Shocking Grasp for nonlethal damage sounds like a taser punch. Now I want to make a short club with Shocking Grasp damage.

[@NerdImmersion]

Seems like a good idea to me

[@JonathanMandrake]

I'm playing a SW RPG right now and am so happy when I can play DnD one day, but in this SW RPG there is nonlethal damage, and most blasters can do nonlethal damage.

[@nicolaezenoaga9756]

Sometimes you need to take prisoners.

[@joshdavis4438]

Yeah this is something d&d had as a major point in other editions. There was even a cleric spell that bestowed non lethal to attacks with a melee weapon for a time. It made training easier for soldiers, guards, and people becoming level one. So world wise it makes sense to have.

[@zeldablizzard]

I've thought of homebrew rules for this: You have to declare you want it to be nonlethal when you roll the attack, only the three physical damage types can be nonlethal, and your attacks deal half damage, but you won't kill them. But then I only have one player who ever wants to do this, and he wants to take *everyone* out nonlethally. So to avoid handicapping my newest player, I'm not bothering.

[@toufexisk]

this is a pretty good approach. PC's should have a handicap if they want non-lethal. Casters have other ways to knock NPCs out like sleep, paralysis.. you name it. Half-damage is one of the ways I was thinking about, I think the other approach is disadvantage to hit. The good thing with this is it makes the help action an interesting choice.

[@Randomdudefromtheinternet]

I mean, do you remember the legionary who hit that kid with the pommel on Netflix's Barbarians? Yeah... non-lethal

[@geoffreyperrin4347]

I try to remember to ask melee characters when they knock out an enemy "lethal or non-lethal?" to remind them that they can do so to interrogate someone later or just not murder everyone. If a non-melee attack is used, I allow the attacker to either give themselves disadvantage on the attack roll or give all targets advantage on their saving throw, as they are holding back

[@InsightCheck]

Typically, in my games my players do usually just outright kill the target, but on many occasions they have opted to knock out a creature, we don't use the term "non-lethal damage". When they do it, it is typically because it is somewhat of a "valuable" enemy that they want to obtain information from and I love that they use it to really embrace some great RP moments. I actually even allow them to do it with spells or ranged attacks. The internal logic I use is that any archer or spellcaster familiar enough with their craft would understand how to conjure a spell in such a way or shoot an arrow in such a way that it would not result in the immediate killing of a target. Yeah, it requires some suspension of belief but we feel the RP elements it adds outweigh the "weirdness".

[@ObliviousNaga]

Does it really make a difference mechanically? This rule and "non lethal damage" are essentially the same thing with different steps. Honestly this is just a quick quality of life rule. At the end of the day what really matters is how you tell the story

[@leviangel97]

So it does function differently than non lethal from 3.5

[@joshdavid9256]

It does have some important differences. In 3.5 if subdual damage was being dealt to a creature the DM had to keep track of how much of the damage was lethal vs subdual. Also the ability to declare a knock out after an attack hits means you won't murder someone by accident because you forgot to say non lethal at the start of the turn. This is much cleaner and more user friendly.

[@kristhebrownie]

My Artificer's shocking grasp is literally a magic taser

[@zendikarisparkmage2938]

With Spiritual Weapon, you can make a "Melee Spell Attack" from up to 60ft away.

[@manandshark]

Makes sense, cause its a melee weapon you are creating.

[@wildmike5707]

At my table all weapons have classified for ko damage because u can hit someone with the pommel or shaft of a weapon. We have rules that to use shocking grasp a follow up arcana check to control it to a nonlethal level

[@theblindbuildergrandminuti5648]

From the start, I’ve ruled things as having death saving throws unless they’re critical hits that really have fatal descriptions for all the NPCs and mobs. It’s just that commoners and minion class mobs have such low hit points, that they go over their hit point maximum and die, very easily. It’s actually been interesting having some of the minions get up or try to play dead. I guess most people don’t bother with that, but I actually find it interesting and can lead to more than just the combat is done. An arrow that made someone go into shock or a magic bolt that burned and ruptured something isn’t the same as being cut in half or being incinerated.

[@superschnitzel4440]

My probably best dnd player moment was when I knocked an orc unconscious by throwing my raven familiar at it and critting. We laughed so hard when that happened.

[@Artemisthemp]

What is this 5 foot step? I rule that an attacker can do Non-letal damage/deal kone killing blow with Melee or Range. OFC with limited as Finger of Death or Power word Kill doesn't make sense to use if you don't wanna kill.

[@milkenobi]

Knocking out someone with a dagger or halberd is not far fetched. Imagine flipping the dagger and knocking your opponent out by bopping their skull with the pommel, or knocking out someone with the butt end of the halberd. Very plausible.

[@javisan-zq1wg]

i rule you can do non lethal damage with anything,but the more damage from the attack,or level of the spell you may need to use some healing,and mostly these npcs wont fight ever.even maybe wont recover in months,so no easy prisioners

[@FinDread0]

First 5 minutes are an ad?

[@spyguy4558]

First!

[@HankJ666]

A friend of mine made a one shot and I was playing a sun soul monk with a soldier background He was tired of war and seeing death so I decided he would just knock out every humanoid enemy he would find rather than kill them The one shot started with a group of "terrorist" composed of the marginalized groups of the city So they sounded pretty innocent if you ask me, also since my character wasn't a human either he fitted more with them than with the rulers of the city They assaulted a tower and we went all the way up to the roof, knocking every enemy we found (luckily I was first in initiative cuz judging by the other PCs and DM reactions, they didn't expect that at all) Later the one shot turned from political intrigue into straight up zombie apocalypse, so yeah, my sun soul monk ended up being the doomguy of the party I even got a sun sword at some point We would keep knocking humanoids that we found instead of killing them and them hiding them in rooms or closets or whatever, so if we had to backtrack at some point, there would be less zombies that intended So yeah Pacifist route Unless zombies

[@flashn00b]

The title of this video and the accompanying thumbnail reminds me of how all blunt weapons in Cyberpunk are labeled as "non-lethal damage" even when you can explode heads or punch gruesome holes in people's stomachs with "non-lethal damage"

[@xezzee]

We run the rules that if anyone's HP is reduced to the negative more than the person's max hp you out right kill them. Reason: MinMaxer wants to deal +200dmg from SINGLE HIT to a child -> The child is going to take 200dmg taking his 2 hp to -198 and outright killing him. I want my players to Work on the "let's leave someone alive" instead of going LOLZ MAX DMG BONK! Too lazy to open the book to read with Dyslexia how the rule went on this :D I may be using the rule wrong but it fits and makes sense that if you drop a nuke from Paladin's Hammer the kid will Explode in Core and Stuff

[@KaeganThornhillTheCyberRaven]

At lest it's not as Bad/Crazy as None-Lethal Damge in 4E. In this edition, a much simpler non-lethal rule appeared in its Player's Handbook (4e) (2008), p.295. "Whoever reduces a creature to zero hit points or below may opt to have it knocked unconscious instead of killed or incapacitated." There is otherwise no distinction between lethal and nonlethal damage in this versions of the game. (Meaning any form of Damage can be Declared as Non-Lethal.) Aka: Players could choose to use "Non-Lethal" magic damge. While D&D 3E and back had a status called "System Shock" which could kill a Character forever, even if their body & soul was healed back before the Status was put on them.

"Sad ranger noise from quiver and arrows with blunt points..." Regards from Tabasco, México [Land of The Olmecs]!

[@TheTimeshadows]

I'm not running or playing 5e, but I definitely use Subdual Damage in my flavour of D&D. -- I especially liked how Bards in Privateer Press' _Iron Kingdoms_ 3.5 game allowed them to transfer others' Lethal Damage as Subdual Damage to the Bard, healing the other in the process.

[@Wh173c0c0]

I allow anything that is not 100% lethal by definition be non-lethal if desired. My DMs do more or less the same for me in return. Sure, things like Power Word Kill or Disintegrate can't be non-lethal by definition; other spells can be though. I mean, a Barbarian can spare that 3HP Kobold while dealing 37 damage with a greataxe but the Bard using Vicious Mockery to do exactly 3 *has to* kill him because of hurt feelings? Really? I also forgo the "max damage" rule for this. Players don't know something's HP and can't control critical hits. Forcing a PC who doesn't kill people to kill a guy because "Hur dur, you crit with big numbers" only ruins his character and gets me nothing. I understand that accidents could happen, but this is a game for fun; let the players enjoy it.

[@dutch6857]

We always went with melee weapon damage only. Kind of unspoken. The fire would burn, and THEN you could try to tap the guard's head with the pommel. But as soon as you said Shocking Grasp, I immediately thought "Ooo, Taser..."

[@guamae]

I'm pretty loose with knocking targets unconscious vs killing them... I'll often track death-saves for important villains, because if the PCs get them, why not the Big Bad? It also doesn't make a whole lot of sense how Death Saves work, and that a Healing Word will bring you from 2 fails to Fully Functional in an instant... but... games.

[@raysiegrist]

Three people in my group have DMed sessions for us, and we discuss things like this for home rules. I started playing D&D in the early 80s, and I did bring up "subdual" and "non-lethal" damage. We agreed RAW, was almost good enough. The person making the finishing blow can/must declare we are stabilising the target once they are at 0. We didn't have any special missiles then (blunted arrows, say) so bows/crossbows couldn't be used, but throwing hammer would work. It is entirely situational, but it did allow us to do some interrogations and made for good RP hooks as we discussed "What do we do with him now?" afterwards.

[@zombiemanjosh]

At my table you can also knock a creature out from range if you're using a ranged weapon that deals bludgeoning (like a sling or hunting bolts for crossbows meant for killing small game without punching a massive hole in it) or spell that deals bludgeoning, thunder, force or something like that. Smacking someone in the head with a greatclub, flinging a rock at their head, or even an EB literally applying force like any other projectile all are equally capable of knocking someone's lights out. If a Wizard puts up a Wall of Force and a Barbarian successfully grapples a foe, I will 100% allow the Barbarian to smash the foe's head repeatedly against the Wall of Force for "nonlethal" force damage like that one fight scene in The Raid: Redemption's (iirc, could definitely be a different movie) hallway fight. Edit: Lol, you addressed it right after I posted the comment.

[@grinningdragondren]

When i did it i asked my dm if i can swing with nonlethal damage so i can interagate the gaurd. He asked me to describe how i am hitting him i reponded i swing my halberds staff staff portion onto his head for a knock out. My players in my campaign actually would fight and try to subdue the assailant when able by pinning them to the ground or knocking them prone and describing how they hold a sword to their throat

[@dragonsthunderstudio]

A group I play with also use blunted arrows as a thing, but with the carveout. For a knock out, the creatures AC is considered 2 higher (a 12 becomes a 14), if you would have normally hit with a roll less than the new AC (12 or 13 in my example), the damage is lethal, otherwise (14+ in the example) the damage is non-lethal. We felt this was fun way to make dealing non-lethal with a missile weapon still potentially dangerous.

[@Onorel]

I'm a "forever DM", I play many times a week and have done so for a few years now, and I've never seen it work very well. Classic example, one player announces they're going for non-lethal (or "knock out your opponent, or whatever). Then it gets to the next guy's turn, and they try to justify why they're going for lethal themselves. It usually is one version or another of "that's what my character would do". For many people, their d&d character is their "power fantasy", and going for a KO may not make them feel badass, I don't know. Whatever the justification is, the fact of the matter is, if 10 bandits are dead and 1's unconscious, did it really make a difference? I sincerely wish more players would go for a knock out, WAY more fun stuff can come out of that, but I'm not there to tell them what to do and i'm not there to judge either. I am the to have the guards arrest them from time to time though ;P

[@The482075]

How I would run non-lethal damage. When you reduce a creature to 0 hit points, you have the option of immediately making them stable but unconscious for up to 4 hours. The creature will eventually wake up after 4 hours (or sooner if awakened earlier) at 1 HP. Any damage type (with a few exceptions) can be nonlethal. Yes, that includes fire though instead of burning the creature to ashing, non-lethal fire heats the creature till they pass out. Cold damage chills the creature to the point of passing out. Any attack with one or more of the following damage types cannot be made non-lethal: Acid, Necrotic, Piercing, and Slashing.

[@greenhawk3796]

I allow it to exist with melee weapons. They have control over where the impact is and how much damage they really wanna do. Typically only if they've captured an enemy by actively trying not to kill. A monk using stunning strike and then a fighter slapping manacles on the enemy is one of those things that says "okay, now you can control damage" I also treat this kind of damage as a standard unarmed strike in that it's 1 + weapon modifier.

[@toufexisk]

Interesting! I like the idea of 1+ weapon mod for the damage, it shows restraint and control! How have your players received this? Does it take too long?

[@greenhawk3796]

@@toufexisk well, I've reminded them that the creatures HP still exists, and at some point the creature will fall unconscious, so because there's no attack roll it's very easy to over do it on the torture side. So far it has been fairly well received but only existed in a mini campaign. I will likely implement it in my "0-21" Eberron campaign.

[@toufexisk]

@@greenhawk3796 Nice! I like that they can torture someone to death by accident. Thanks for the feedback!

[@BillWiltfong]

We've used this rule as-is, and it works fine for those rare situations where you don't want to kill a target. But it resulted in incredulous disbelief the first few times, because it's so dumb. I mean, the rule lets you basically retcon your attack by saying, "oops, just kidding, I'm not stabbing his heart after all," after you stab his heart. Once we got used to it, we ignored the fact that it's dumb, because we hardly ever need to care about saving a foe's life. For something we don't care about 99% of the time, a dumb rule is a lot better than no option at all, or a complicated option we probably forgot about. But, if it were easy for the DM to handle Team Monster rolling death saves instead of insta-death (how we play), I would find the "Save his life! Quick!" gameplay after a killing blow to be a lot more interesting and fun for those rare situations.

[@backonlazer791]

Knocking someone unconscious is wholly unrealistic, so just do what fits for your table. For example, I have a player who doesn't like killing, so she always deals "non-lethal damage", so I just roll with it.

[@kylethomas9130]

Player: I'd like to deal non lethal damage. DM: your character is currently polymorphed.... as a T-rex...

[@skullsquad900]

If a player wants to Knock-Out an enemy; I let them make an attack with a Blunt Weapon (the Pommel of their Sword or Dagger works fine), and the enemy must make a Con Save vs the Damage Inflicted (like a Concentration Check). *If they were undetected before hand, then the enemy has Disadvantage. If they were already in combat, then the enemy has Advantage.

[@kevinbrown2095]

My only big issue with the RAW of knocking out in 5e is that, odds are (without metagaming) only your GM knows when a blow is gonna drop someone to 0. In my limited experience this leads to the GM deciding that they've "died" which is typically what that means across media. The issue being since I don't know when they fall it puts me in the awkward position to have to go, "um actually I'd prefer it if I bonked them unconscious with the flat side of my battleaxe . . . but your beheading narration was really cool though!"

[@docmike8601]

I love when the DM asks me "do you want to do lethal damage and take him alive?" *Looks at my dark one's blessing ability...* "No thanks...I just finish him off..."

[@brycenpeacock9262]

Weird, I've never played earlier editions or had any kind of experience with D&D before 5e, but I've always played with "non-lethal damage". Wonder where I got that from

[@Lurklen]

I say non-lethal damage, but it's only really relevant when a character goes to 0, but I do say you have to declare it before you attack (because you generally don't know if they were going down before you attack). Because of house rules, this matters for damage type. Non-lethal, or knocking someone out, is always bludgeoning, and generally you don't target the head if you want them to live. In my games, it always does an injury to a character when they are brought to 0 hitpoints, but a non-lethal injury targets non-lethal parts of the body. If you crit on a non-lethal attack, you do lethal damage inadvertently (accidents happen). I don't allow non-lethal with ranged, or spells, or spell damage, except with a casting check (dc 10 +spell level) and only if it's plausible. I have trouble believing you can smite someone merely unconscious, but if you exert your will upon your magic you might get it to function against its normal purpose. You can do bludgeoning damage with almost any melee weapon, (pommel strikes, using the flat of a blade, or the butte of an axe or polearm) and I see no problem with allowing it with sneak attack, the whole abstraction of sneak attack is the rogue is capable of precise strikes that are significantly more injurious. THat's how it works at the tables I run, barring adjustment of house rules for table preference.

[@chrishall5440]

I guess like most things in the game I would just make a ruling using common sense. I can see non-melee attacks working. I have no problem with a player saying they are trying to knock their opponent out and at 0 hp, the victim goes unconscious. I mean, really, all damage in D&D is non-lethal except the final blow. It doesn’t use hit location or wounds charts. Declaring intention is enough for me without having rules for “non-lethal attacks.” I’d even be amenable to letting a caster use a ranged spell like thunderwave to cause unconsciousness. Again, it just boils down to common sense. I also like using old school subdual damage where a flat-of-the-blade attack can reduce a dragon (or other intelligent foe by DM-fiat) by enough hit points (either a certain ratio of the total or zero) to make them surrender and bring them under the subdue-er’s will. Subduing may not be done with missiles or spells, but each DM may tule as they see fit. I think subduing dragons is really the beginning of non-lethal damage in later editions.

[@OrbitalBliss]

Anyone curious about which spells will work for "knocking out". The list may be shorter than you'd think: Bigby's Hand - 5th Blade of Disaster - 9th (TCE) Flame Blade - 2nd Inflict Wounds - 1st Mordenkainen's Sword - 7th Primal Savagery - Cantrip (XGE) Shocking Grasp - Cantrip Spiritual Weapon - 2nd Steel Wind Strike - 5th (XGE) Thorn Whip - Cantrip Vampiric Touch - 3rd

[@andrewpowers2249]

Are you saying that fireball from 5ft away can leave them alive and unconscious, but I can't say "This is an arrow to the knee, and the pain will knock them unconscious?" per Rules As Written?

[@kyleward3914]

The terminology I still accidentally use is the names of saving throws. I still ask for "fortitude," "reflex," or "will" saves more often than I ought to for how long I've been playing 5e. I'm sure the newer players in my group have been confused more than once.

[@travismcenaney2719]

I've seen non-lethal used in my current campaign a handful of times. I allow 'non-lethal' damage on ranged attacks, too. I have allowed it on spells, though somebody asked theoretically if they could cast Meteor Storm as non-lethal, which made me reconsider my stance on it. I like the idea that cantrips can be used non-lethal, so I think I'll change my rule to that. HOWEVER, there was one time where one of my players crit on an attack on an important antagonist, but they asked if it could be non-lethal. I was cool with it. After they calculated damage, it was so high that it reached the negative max HP of the NPC. I allowed the insta-kill rule to overrule the non-lethal one, and they 'accidently' killed them. It was an interesting turn of events within 5 minutes of gameplay, and they even felt so bad they revivified the dude, and he became more of an ally out of gratitude.

[@sovelisholimion2680]

I was aware that it was melee attack, but I didn't know that you could decide after... Generally in my campaign we limit knocking out to melee weapon attacks as a homebrew rule tho. Something I was wondering, what about sending creatures to -max hp? If the paladin smites a 5hp goblin for 30 damage and wants to make it non-lethal, can he do it? In my campaign you can't, and it's a pretty interesting mechanic when dealing with some homebrew enemies that I have: they possess creatures making them stronger and giving them extra hp, but when the creature goes unconscious, the possession ends, thus if the base creature was a commoner, it may die due to the remaining damage taking it to -max hp. This has made for some fun and interesting fights... But yeah, what do you think about the "massive damage" related to this knocking out? (I know, massive damage is from previous editions, but it's such a catchy name)

[@100dfrost]

We are still using a sort of Gen 1 home brew. You can state non lethal, supposedly they get three quarter of hps taken back after subdual. Now a caveat, if any damage, non lethal or otherwise, reduces your target to less than - 10 hps, they are dead. We did make an exception for Spare the Dying, and I am considering Healing Word also. This is most likely in, but hasn't come up in practice. Yes, we have had some very strong players that did a crit and killed an npc they were trying to capture. Good video, thanks.

[@stevensmith3523]

I have ruled that only bludgeoning or force damage can knock someone out. There will always be that player that says "I hit them with the hilt of my sword". But I rule that they would do 1 + Str/Dex damage or maybe 1d4 + str/dex. I personally don't understand a Dragonborn using nonlethal lighting breath, or a paladin doing nonlethal "Feel the Wrath of my god" damage. It's not something that comes up often, but every time I have to either retcon or restate the rule at the table

[@bernardobertolini5693]

1d4 Bludgeoning for non bludgeoning one handed weapons or 1d6 for non bludgeoning two handed weapons. Considering a sword is not made to be fully efective with the blunt side, would be logical to have it do less damage. Also, maybe cap the amount of damage any enemy can withstand in one bludgeoning hit to be non-lethal when it comes to 0 hit points. Maybe 10 per size (10 hp for a tiny, 20 for a small, etc.), Over this on a bludegoning hit that brings it to 0 it's just too much a concussion.

[@trevorninja100]

The games I usually play in don't normally take bludgeoning/ piercing/ or slashing damage into account and only judge damage as magical or non-magical. Sure it means that the DMs were probably lazy and didn't want to focus on those mechanics but it also meant that hitting someone with the pommel of a sword or the blunt end of a pole arm (even though that's already a thing) was a way to "non-lethally" take an opponent out. But idk, I feel that bringing a modern view point of "killing is bad and never helps a situation" isn't what the devs wanted. We're are talking about a world that basically takes place during the medieval period.

[@Miriromi13]

In my last campaign the group was largely thieves with a heart of gold or religious folk so the term "I attack them non-lethally" came up a lot. Y'know, smack the goblin, knock them out, teach them what's what. My character was of course the exception because he was a ranger with a crossbow. So virtually all of his attacks were lethal and he was very 'meh' on the 'spare them' mentality. At one point it got to the point where we captured some wizard and the group was trying to decide how to get evidence to have him charged for crimes for which the only witness was a Revenant while the anti-undead paladin and priest didn't want to just give him over to said Revenant. This went on for about twenty minutes before "My drow aims his hand crossbow at the wizard's head and says 'Ten seconds to figure it out or I shoot.'"

[@danielwaller3782]

This came up in a recent session for me. We were trying to resolve a Dwarven clan issue by helping the younger generation essentially execute a coup against the older clan leadership but we wanted to avoid killing as much as possible. Me being a Soul Knife rogue could use my soulblades in melee to knock them out but accidentally killed one of them by using a ranged blade, even though the damage was the same and with the nature of the soulblades there's no "angling the weapon just right" (I killed a named NPC who the DM had already said when we asked that he'd allow named NPCs death saving throws so we still stablized him) But one was a Melee attack and one was a Ranged attack so RAW one could be a knockout blow and the other couldn't.

[@authoritykindbeggardynamic]

I am using a HB version of this rule I found and now use in my games, where it says that all weapons can make a none lethal strike, which is none lethal (duh), but does shit for damage. Some weapons have the non-lethal trait, letting them deal their full damage whilst also knocking others out. As my barbarian at some point said to me "It is too easy to be good. Mercy should require effort, because then why wouldn't it always be done?".

[@wearloga]

At my table I have the rule that any attack knocks out the target (unless it would die instantly from the 'overkill' damage) and that players can declare to kill them. But if we ever start a new campaign, I might try to go back to something more in line wit h3.5, because I don't really like the 5E system. But the weird "it's a ranged attack, so it doesn't work" sounds stupid to me

[@KaeganThornhillTheCyberRaven]

Here's a fun fact not many people know, or seem to forget. Fireball can Not ignite any clothing item being worn, nor can it burn any supplies/items being carried by a Hero or NPC. Meaning if a Hero is nearly burnt to a chard skeleton with 1hp left...their straw shirt and paper pants will be unscathed.

[@karlcooke8151]

I do like non-lethal damage as an option available to players. That being said. I'm working on homebrew that allows multiple levels of proficiency with a weapon, to extend the damage available. Shorts words, can get bludgeoning, but at a dice level lower, quarterstaff gets piercing as they stabbed at their target with the butt or tip. As examples

[@MasterTMO]

I sent my PCs against a small wererat tribe before they had silver or magic weapons using a chokehold rule I found online: "In order to strangle someone they must be grappled. Once they are grappled you must use your action to choke them. You make a Strength check while the victim makes a constitution saving throw. If the strangler succeeds then the victim takes one level of strangulation. If the victim wins the contested roll then he/she maintains their current strangulation level. A creature may have an amount of strangulation levels that is equal to 1+CON mod. When a creature reaches its max level of strangulation then the creature becomes unconscious for 1d3 rounds. If the victim breaks free or wakes up remove all strangulation levels from them."

[@pepijnkooij2830]

In my opinion the battle/damage options in 5e are rather broken either way. Coming from 5e, I was used to the option "called shot", giving the options to target a particular part of the target (e.g. neck, eyes, behind the knees), resulting in particular, potentially immediately lethal, damage. On gets a minus on attack rolls, depending on the difficulty of the target. In 5e, you can sometimes hit what you want, and taking several rounds to kill a creature/target, however, more realistically, if you hit a vital artery, the heart, the brain, the creature/target would die, even when it theoretically still has a bunch of hitpoints left. I did find this unofficial version for 5e (www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/alternative-rules-other-publishers/called-shots/), but nothing from the official releases as far as I'm aware

[@ryanadshead4809]

I tried to non lethally kill a goblin to interrogate later but rolled a nat 20. Being a half-orc I using a Glaive I got an extra d10 to go with the crit, total of 3d10. I rolled pretty high sooo I pretty much exploded his head anyway, followed by "Oops". We got a pretty good chuckle of it.

[@ManlyPicnics]

I rule my 'non-lethal damage' on a case by case basis. Obviously not everything is going to work non-lethally, conversely there are several spell effects that could work as non-lethal, even if the rule says 'melee attacks'. Fortunately, my players rarely use non-lethal damage.

[@lucapasin9146]

At my table if a player intends to knock out a creature they must declare it before the attack is rolled and the damage dealt is halved. This is meant to take into account the original intent of the blow and the character’s restraint while dealing the blow. “That hits. Roll for damage.” “With smite that is 45 points of damage. O by the way that was non-leathal” “So as you slapped him across the face with your mace instead of caving in his skull you knock him out with a force that could kill more than 10 commoners.” That just doesn’t sit right with me.

[@danluna8840]

Just goes to show we are creatures of habit. Outside of not killing an opponent it’s rather worthless. Say you want to knockout a guard before he can give warning of your presence. You can’t. With emphasis on the (.). You must go through all of his/her hp before that can happen. Now some will point out the sleep spell. That’s still a situation where you have to go through all the hp. So the rouge / any character without the sleep spell is out of luck. Once a guard takes note of you, you are caught. By note I mean movement or less than debilitating damage. Then you are one initiative roll away from him/her sounding the alarm. Now out side of this rant I do have an idea. Why not make it a save. An player states that he wants to ko an opponent. He would need to make a successful attack role ( still doing damage) . Then the opponent would have to make a con save vs attackers strength mod + 8+ proficiency bonus . With the stipulations that they must already have proficiency in athletics. Just an idea.

[@agemmemnon100]

Your video jogged my memory as a young teen playing Becmi D&D as to when we were introduced to the Blackjack weapon in the Companion Rules set. The ability to knock a target out with a single strike to the head or neck and knock them unconscious, stun them, or even knock them out of their initiative and delay them was game changing. I always thought later additions concept of declaring "subdual", or "non-lethal" damage silly. A target can take all kinds of damage and be near death but my last strike if I declare Non lethal doesn't kill them? It's silly. I think though that the 5e rule is intended not only to take such silly damage record keeping off the table and at least give players some agency, especially to those of martial skills with poor diplomacy. If the players don't want to kill a target, but things get off on the wrong foot, they can at least knock out the target, and allow them to talk things through. Thus it is here for player agency.

[@jonsaucy8440]

It really comes down to semantics. In past editions, non-lethal damage was absolutely a thing. Then again, to declare "I'm doing non-lethal damage" is not necessarily calling upon a rule; it's calling a generally common turn of phrase at this point. That said, I love when my players invoke this type of ability because it means they aren't just killing anything that's less than friendly to them. It shows a conscience, which to be fair and disappointingly honest, many dnd adventuring groups lack from time to time.

[@christianadams211]

Great video! Really got me thinking cause I’ve been letting a player do “non lethal” with eldritch blast as a celestial warlock and I think I’m gonna revoke that ruling on him. Lightning Lure is a melee spell attack it just has range so I think it would still count as a melee attack, while ur example of a ranged spell cast within 5ft with disadvantage would not from my understanding.

[@TheFerrett3]

In another system I was trying to catch a bear monster with logic and sedative poisons and rope. Bear shrugs it off. The GM informs me of non-lethal damage. Disappointingly that worked better.

[@gbelacel]

Great video. For some reason I believed you had to call non-lethal damage before attacking, but the real rule actually is easier to use, so that understand why it is written this way. One thing that is a homebrew rule at my table is that magic damage can’t do non-lethal (or knock out an enemy with the RAW). So you can’t smite, green-flame blade or anything similar can knock someone out.

[@Valchemist_]

Long story short is just like many of the other things in dnd my players wish to do that may be bending or outside of the rules is I want them just to explain how they think it could work. If you shoot an arrow at a target and aim for a non vital part of the body I’d allow that to “knockout” an enemy if they got them to 0 hp. A lot of stuff at my table is haggling “ok you want to slide over a table and not have it take your movement because you really want to hit that one goblin specifically ? Acrobatics sounds fair how about you beat a 10 ?” If the table agrees to the deal that’s the rule for that moment. Along with this inspiration in my games are now little tokens the players can “gamble/haggle” with me to do things. (The “price” depends on what they want to do and how many tokens I’ve given out) if you want to shove a creature as a bonus action ?... Hmm ok you have 5 tokens ? Give me 3 and I’ll allow it. Let’s the players really feel free to do whatever they want while also inspiring them to RP more and get into the game more and more

[@davidrose7938]

For me, if its intended not to kill I’m probably going to allow it to be non-lethal. They are attempting not to be murder hobos and now I have NPCs that could be recurring in some capacity. It’s an easy decision for me.