Even smaller ZigBee switch: Sonoff ZB Mini Extreme (no neutral)

[@JaguarInfinity]

I brought one to test out and it arrived today. I thought it might be the perfect option to balance what me and my wife want from our smart switches but it had a lot to live up to. The ability for anyone visiting the house and simply use a light switch as normal yet the ability to control it through the smart home and have it work on a no neuteral system here in the UK without having to try and find a way of wiring a load resistor somewhere in the ceiling wiring whilst being easy to install and hide away itself. And I'm pleased to say so far so good! I'm using it to run a single 8w LED bulb and no load resistor required, it's as responsive as any local zigbee device would be, it connected fine to my tasmota flashed zigbee bridge connected to home assistant (sing ZHA rather than zigbee2mqtt) showing up as a regular light switch in the dashboard..... it just works! I'm very impressed! Going to give it a week or so to see if it holds up to initial expectations but I can see a load more being ordered to finally migrate most of my lighting over to smart lighting with full spouse approval factor. At this point the only way it could possibly be better is if it also acted as a repeater to improve the zigbee mesh network but oh well.

[@notenoughtech]

Nice to hear! Could you add the bulb brand - I know some of the LED bulbs could be a troublemakers at OFF position, so having a couple brand recommendations in comments would be beneficial

[@JaguarInfinity]

Just a regular B&Q own brand one

[@Lordsheva80]

Where did you buy it?

[@JaguarInfinity]

@@Lordsheva80 the itead online store

[@Lordsheva80]

@@JaguarInfinity ah ok, I was waiting for Amazon since they take ages to send via China…

[@EsotericArctos]

The size and no neutral makes it really handy. Looks like it will fit in just about any wall box. It's really nicely priced too. The stored power is a good idea too and should provide a lot more reliable performance for a device working on leakage current. Pity it can't act as a router. Aeotec have Z-wave no neutral dimmers and switches that work as Z-Wave routers and also have power monitoring, so the technology is there to do that. Hopefully Itead will sort that out for the next iteration of the devices.

[@notenoughtech]

I'd like to see a dimmer in this form factor. That would be cool to try

[@EsotericArctos]

@@notenoughtech I should imagine it is possible. Just have to see if Itead feel there is a market for it. I hope they do as the Aeotec dimmers are the last of the Z-Wave devices I have and I'd like to move completely to Zigbee

[@notenoughtech]

With no neutral I can see this being tricky as you would modulate your own power supply too which could affect how the switch works

[@hkalisvaart]

I'm going to test this out when it's released. I want to skip the bulbs and go straight for the switches. This seems like the easiest way to do it with this small size.

[@notenoughtech]

I usually advise switches for main lights and bulbs for lamps as then you can set colour mood or dim lights while creating a nice mood. I found dimming and colours from ceiling can look obnoxious

[@hkalisvaart]

@@notenoughtech like making you living and bedrooms look like a teenagers gaming PC.😉

[@notenoughtech]

I was thinking more red light district but that also works. 😁😁😁

[@superslash7254]

@@notenoughtech Ceiling lights are also generally used for overall illumination, where quality of light matters a lot, and there just aren't any smart bulbs with a remotely decent TM-30 rating. A smart relay inside the switch lets you use proper quality bulbs for your overall lighting needs, which will be a lot better for your health and eye strain long term.

[@kamandoyle]

I currently use Sonoff zbmini at the ceiling rose as with all these modules, they are just too thick to get in the backboxes in my house. If they can overcome that hurdle then they will be perfect.

[@notenoughtech]

Same here. Before I had my hands on no neutral switches I had to put the stuff in the ceiling rose

[@metalwolfy82]

going to have to keep my eye for these appearing generally available. Pick one up and try it in certain places that the Mrs doesn't want light up light switches :D

[@videolan]

if only there was a zigbee "dry contact" relay switch from someone! I can't find one except from Aliexpress,

[@JD12ish]

Could someone explain how this works without the neutral connection? Most devices that don't need a neutral get power from a cell battery - which I most definitely do not want.

[@tgsparkyoriginal]

Wish they made a relay that small that has dry contacts for switching other devises

[@TrickyTree84]

If this had a dimmer, I'd put them in every single room. Their dimmer version only works with toggle switches

[@helotpl]

It retains a charge, not current inside.

[@ronm6585]

Nice! Thanks Mat.

[@notenoughtech]

Thanks for watching

[@mirko46381]

They are bit noisy, click is very audible during the night. I had more luck with Tuya relays which are basically noiseless.

[@notenoughtech]

Ach the releay... well solenoids :) cheap solenoids are cheap :D

[@irishpete79]

Any chance of a ‘how to’ for two way switching ? There seem to be two options in the manual, but also several ways to wire two-way lighting in the uk. I’m thoroughly confused !

[@gedgicat2063]

So this unit has enough power to toggle the relay 4 times after being powered down, it still does not have enough power to work as a mesh network node 🤷

[@notenoughtech]

I take a functional end device over an imperfect router capable of messing up the mesh.

[@gedgicat2063]

@@notenoughtech agreed a rock sold product is always preferred, it just seems like they've missed an opportunity here, especially for those looking to create my 1st ZigBee mesh, this looked like a good option until... I'll probably look to put units in the ceiling rose instead, got any recommendations.

[@krayzieegg7294]

how do you set this up for 2-way without using the automation. i need to be able to control my 2 switches physically to turn on my hallway light

[@Zeric1]

A "permanent" installation like this is designed for just doesn't make sense without the router function. That was the trade-off for supporting no neutral. In my part of the world, most homes built in the last 40-50 years have neutral available, but that's not the case in other places.

[@notenoughtech]

Realistically speaking you'll have more ZigBee devices in proximity that are acting this way. It makes sense to have the switch ZigBee as you can avoid using WiFi and still use smart witches to automate your lights.

[@ulrar]

I was about to be excited but after a quick check it looks like this doesn't support binding. Not that surprised since none of the other no neutral alternatives do (well except Inovelli, for the lucky US folks), but damn that would have been perfect

[@notenoughtech]

It's the joy of no neutral

[@burner37]

Are they going to release a ZBmini extreme with neutral? Or even better, a dual ZBmini?

[@notenoughtech]

Possibly. I don't have any info about it. There is a new ZigBee product being released this week but not from extreme line

[@GluteMaximuz]

I would use this, except I use Tuya Zigbee 3 devices and the last time I tried Sonoff devices, which I understand are Z3 compliant, there was not a satisfactory outcome.

[@notenoughtech]

Sometimes an update of firmware can resolve this but then you need a sonoff hub to do it

[@GluteMaximuz]

At last, I decided to get one and try it out. I've also changed my back box to a dry lining type, to reduce any reduction in performance by the metal back box. Going to try it out tomorrow and see what happens... @@notenoughtech

[@DigitalTailor-pt]

Hello, great video.. does it work with window shutters? And does it work with other hubs, for example the aqara m2?

[@notenoughtech]

Aqara had a hard time, but tuya no problem. Same with custom coordinators should work just fine

[@RahulParmar1978]

Interesting! How loud is the switch? I have the mini neutral version and it's very audible in a quiet bedroom.

[@notenoughtech]

You will hear the click. There is a moment in the video when I'm touching the button with the sound on

[@paulgreatwich5228]

What's the voltage across S1 S2 on this device. The original 5v isn't enough for my cable length on 2 way switches

[@TenTwennyDollaBills]

It uses mains voltage unlike the original.

[@eberger02]

Any idea what would happen if you just put it in parallel with a switch that does something similar? I have these semi-smart light switches that date back a few years. Essentially they glow slightly when off but brighter when on, so they must be using a tiny current. Cheap LED lights also glow slightly. Guessing a small amount of current would go up both branches. An alternative would be to supply both with power but put a 230v relay across the switch connections and allow my switch to activate the relay (+/- capacitor if too high resistance). Not sure about if it’d all fit though. The 230V relays I’ve seen have all been pretty massive. The current the Sonoff Mini no neutral current output to the switch must be pretty tiny.

[@notenoughtech]

The easiest way is to hunt for a compatible bulb or install a bypass capacitor which can be bought separately online. Adding extra devices is not the way to go.

[@prvashisht]

Thanks for the review, does it need something like a Shelly Bypass?

[@notenoughtech]

I used it with a cheap LED bulb from Tesco and it worked fine.

[@prvashisht]

@@notenoughtech Thanks, just for more clarity, you used it without any bypass or additional hardware, just the bulb and the relay?

[@notenoughtech]

That's correct just as shown on the video

[@MrSupersidewinder]

16A relays are really the right choice for mains devices...🥵

[@notenoughtech]

It's a light relay. Are you trying to wire a football stadium? 😁😁

[@MrSupersidewinder]

@@notenoughtech Nope, I just dont think this relay should become the fuse in a 15A circuit... 🔥⚡

[@notenoughtech]

You could say the same about virtually every appliance plugged into the mains. Nothing stops you from adding a fuse in line too if you are not convinced. A typical bulb has 10-15W which is approx 0.2A on a 8A rated relay fitted into a device with 6A rating. That's approx 30 times the typical consumption suggested for the switch.

[@MrSupersidewinder]

@@notenoughtech And yet if you shorted the wiring at the load the relay would fail... miserably... The weak link becomes the fuse... You should try that, It would be shocking and HOT🔥🤪

[@streaky81]

If you short the load to earth (which is the normal fail condition when talking about live-x shorts) it'll pop the RCD. Live-neutral if it's a UK socket, then you'll blow the plug fuse. On a UK circuit and any built like them, this would generally be a non-issue. Yeah failing that you'll cook the relay most likely, but these are built with flame-retardant packages and they should be in a vaguely at least flame-retardant back box, so in the really extreme scenario like somebody shoves a live-to-neutral short in the socket sans plug (which takes some work with a UK socket, it's not something you can do accidentally) then yeah the link will burn, IMHO this isn't a bad thing, it won't be the wiring in your walls. IMHO the bigger risk is in lighting circuits, but this is why we test circuits and again is a non-issue and your lighting circuits will have a 6A MCB, RCBO or similar anyways. There's an argument for overspecifying it, but it's intended for lighting circuits so usually won't be a problem (an MCB will trip _on_ 6A but a 6A rated relay will probably only cook at maybe 12A, possibly more), but you could get away with it in a normal mains socket if you're using your brain (and a label on the socket probably wouldn't hurt).

[@OwaisLone]

I'm dumb when it comes to electricity. When we say no neutral needed, does that mean it'll work only with switches that do not use neutral or it'll work with switches with neutral but we just don't connect it?

[@notenoughtech]

Both. You don't need to connect N toyour switch, just close the circuit on N line and have the switch in line on the L strand

[@mdlefevere]

Hey, Do you know of any way to keep it running with nothing attached to it. I'm using it right now with a light string connected to a socket. If i remove the string from the socket it goes offline :)/

[@Lordsheva80]

Still unavailable…

[@nagyoti8596]

Does this work with the sonoff zigbee bridge(not the pro version)?

[@jochooi6870]

So the device is 6A does that mean I cannot use it to control a series of 4 standard led lights bulbs?

[@notenoughtech]

6A means that your total current draw should not exceed this. The average bulb is about 10W which is about 0.1A at best

[@ThePhliphip]

Does it have a Power-on-state? I am using ist directly, at a (non smart) LED lamp and cannot run extra wires to wire up the lightswitch. I also cannot put it behind the lightswitch as I am only renting. So the only way to switch on the light is by giving the zb mini power. However the previous zb mini just stayed off when it reviewed power and could not be set any diffently. So I wonder if this ist possible now?

[@notenoughtech]

Hi. The switch doesn't have the option.

[@RagnarMoller]

But why would you use zigbee for a light switch When you can have wifi ? I can underland using zigbee for a motion detector or button, but when you have AC available? using zigbee is asking for trouble.

[@notenoughtech]

1. You need routers for your mesh to keep it healthy and these are mains powered. 2. ZigBee devices use approx 30% of the power of the WiFi equivalent. The average ESP32 based relay cost you about £3 a year to be connected. If you have 10 lights - that's 30£ to keep them connected to WiFi per year and about £10 to do the same with ZigBee.

[@RagnarMoller]

@notenoughtech I don' know if it really improved, but zigbee wad a mess to setup and very dependent on manufactures router etc whereas wifi basically works. So whenever I can use wifi I do. Zigbee is for battery driven stuff, final. Now if you say it's 30%, then the improvement is not enough. I'd tend to use wifi all the time. Of course if you love tinkering ...

[@notenoughtech]

It's been pretty good lately with ZigBee especially if you have a custom coordinator. As an additional bonus you can mix and match ecosystems

[@blakadders]

cool dashboard! is it new?

[@notenoughtech]

Haha cheeky!

[@OwaisLone]

I have a gang box with 3 buttons and it is really really cramped back in there. I can fit one of these but probably not 3. Are there relays that allow powering multiple, ideally 3 switches?

[@notenoughtech]

You could try something on aliexpress. Another locaiton for switches is inside your ceiling rose. You can fit quite a bit in there just label the wires correctly

[@pn670]

I previously owned a no neutral tuya Swith it had a problem with light flickering. Do this has that flickering issue?

[@notenoughtech]

It's likely down to a bulb than the switch- most of them use similar tech. A bypass capacitor can help with the issue and can be added to each switch regardless of the brand but 99% of time is down to a bulb. I test these with £2 LED bulb from tesco which hopefully is most representative of average cheap bulbs out there and seems to be working fine

[@patrickglesner7553]

0:30 What is this Sonoff model (with neutral)? I can't find it on the internet. Thanks.

[@notenoughtech]

Minir4 not released yet. Got video about it in the corner

[@0xs1m0n]

If one turns on the light with the physical switch connected to it, can I still turn off the light through the smart bridge?

[@notenoughtech]

yes you can

[@0xs1m0n]

@@notenoughtech awesome, thanks!

[@NicksStuff]

It's a shame it's not compatible with Hue

[@Chris173972]

So small! I wonder if it will fit in the slimmer light back boxes? I couldn't use the old one due to this.

[@notenoughtech]

It's 19mm thick so it would depend on the box size Vs the switch you have at hand

[@ralfstahlmann5331]

In my home I have dimmer switches. Can I still use them? Second question: Can I set per voice control and skill to set the connected light to 50% or whatever I tell it to?

[@notenoughtech]

I don't think this would work with dimmers. Mostly cause dimmers will regulate the voltage or pdm the output which will affect the way switch works.

[@paulbutterworth9354]

Hi, Is it possible to use this to replace a 2 way UK switch? I have a common (live) and L1 and L2 outputs. How would I connect it up? Live wire to L In, with a connection from L Out to Common, then S1 to L1 and S2 to L2? I'm totally confused by this

[@notenoughtech]

You can do this, if your 2 or 3 way circuit is on a separate loop. If you feed the power from one side of the circuit (lets say switch 1 and bulb is connected with switch 2 then you cannot do this without re-wiring

[@irishpete79]

Any chance you could do a wee video on setting this up ? It’s driving me nuts trying to make it work.

[@Forky218]

What about the Echo devices with a ZigBee hub? Is Alexa able to add the switch?

[@notenoughtech]

I don't have any to test.

[@matthiasnott]

so they don't extend the reach of my zigbee network?

[@notenoughtech]

No I'm sorry. These are just end devices due to no neutral mode

[@matthiasnott]

@@notenoughtech Wow, thank you for your quick answer! Do you know of any others, that could work? I'm trying to extend my zigbee network down to another garage, but I just don't get there. I've tried those IKEA plugs (Tradfri), but they are very unreliable.

[@notenoughtech]

Sonoff zb mini (with neutral) would or zb basic

[@espaiz]

Have you tried it with smartthings hub?

[@notenoughtech]

Sadly, I don't have one

[@mattwilkinson4132]

Any idea how to fix the light flickering whilst "off" with these no neutral switches?

[@notenoughtech]

Usually it's down to the lightbulb. Some are more or less resistant to this. Try a couple of bulbs to see which one doesn't act this way

[@LouisBurki]

use a so-called "Bypass" before the bulb in the light fixture - it's a little capacitor/resistor thing that uses the little bit of circulating current due to the design of those "no-neutral" switch.

[@Marioag0412]

Do these non-neutral relays only act as endpoint devices in zigbee? Or can they act as routers as well?

[@MrDead1975]

he answered that in the video

[@notenoughtech]

As Mark said. Or jump to article so you don't have to look through whole video to find the info you need. In short IC supports both modes but switch is the end device

[@8m405]

Worst device . Doesn't run until u put min. 3w load on it. Detached relay mode not available.

[@kevinleesmith]

Is it also a zigbee repeater?

[@notenoughtech]

Just the end device

[@kevinleesmith]

@NotEnoughTECH pity. I was always told that all zigbee devices powered by the mains were repeaters. I guess its because this one uses little wmby parasitically leeching off only 1 wire with capacitors. Can I assume (for example) that all zigbee smart plugs are also repeaters? If not, how can j tell?

[@notenoughtech]

That's the rule of thumb. But with the devices that hook onto no neutral... Just not enough power in them in the rest mode to act as routers.

[@cooliipie]

3:50

[@alfricko]

Can this be controlled locally if the internet goes down?

[@notenoughtech]

It's ZigBee. It's not using the internet to be controlled.

[@alfricko]

@@notenoughtech I'm currently using Sonoff ZBMINI-L Zigbee but it can only work when ewelink is connected to the internet yet my other devices only require to be in the same network to work even without the internet connectivity. I was wondering if this is cloud-based too or can work without having to connect to the cloud

[@notenoughtech]

Define "connected" I was referring to the protocol alone. With custom coordination you don't need anything other than that to make it work (although you'll be limited to using end devices without any local dashboard or automated policies) Bridge pro has the ability to trigger schedules and automations that require no cloud

[@alfricko]

@@notenoughtech Ok. I'll try to change Sonoff ZBBridge to SONOFF Bridge Pro and see if that will solve the issue and allow my switches to be controlled from a phone in the same network locally even if the internet goes down

[@patrickglesner7553]

0:30 What is this Sonoff model (with neutral)? I can't find it on the internet. Thanks.

[@alisterlf]

Works with Philips Hue hub??

[@notenoughtech]

Sadly I don't have the hub to testes. Only tested with the ones I had at home

[@mindertvanderwal3905]

I try to pair it with my Hue hub. But it won’t pair. Please let me know if you have any idea how to pair it with the philips hue bridge.

[@notenoughtech]

It's gonna be down to the bridge rather than switch. If you want to mix ecosystems best way is with a custom coordinator. Check out my videos on Sonoff dongle and cc2531

[@Silkari]

Did you find a solution to use Hue? I want to do the same. @@mindertvanderwal3905

[@Luke-san]

Does it work if you use a led bulb? I know some sell capacitors which you have to place over the led to get things working.

[@notenoughtech]

I was using a cheap led Tesco bulb in my test

[@Luke-san]

@@notenoughtech aha, thanks for the quick reply. Seriously impressive then! Looks like a solution a lot of people can really use seeing as a lot of (read most) homes here in the Benelux only have the 1 wire switch solution here.

[@notenoughtech]

Same here. All my switches are no neutral

[@dfgdfg_]

Previous model (ZBMINI-L) completely unreliable with Hue hub.

[@notenoughtech]

Hmm. I can't say I come across any issues but I was only using custom coordination.

[@chuxxsss]

Morning mate, 38 degrees C here today. I need a no neutral wall switch. I through out version one of itead version.

[@notenoughtech]

Summer in full! I'm missing the 🌞

[@qfina]

My device only works with my physical light switch if I flip the switch twice very fast. Any ideas why this might be?! If I flip the physical switch nothing happens, if I flip it back and forth once very fast, it functions as expected...!?!

[@notenoughtech]

You are using the switch in the incorrect mode. Press the button on the device 3 times to change the switch mode.

[@qfina]

@@notenoughtech oh wow, I didn't see anything about that in the instructions! Thank you very much, when I get home I will check that out, really apprecaite your reply, subbed :D

[@notenoughtech]

I'm always happy to help and thanks for the sub. I hope you will enjoy my other videos.

[@qfina]

@@notenoughtech That fixed it, thanks again!

[@mysoupistoohot]

Will it pair and function with the hue bridge like the older model?

[@notenoughtech]

Can't confirm as I don't have the hub but I'd imagine it uses standard ZigBee payloads. I'd other sonoffs work with your hub this one will too

[@Silkari]

Did you find out? I'm keen to use Hue bridge also.

[@mysoupistoohot]

@@Silkari no, I haven't. The older one paired, technically, but I was never able to actually get it to work. I want to be sure it'll work before I bother buying it

[@rrorge]

Doe it connect to a philips hue Hub?

[@Silkari]

Did you find out? I'm keen to use Hue also.